Khora Whipclaw feedback

[SeredithWulfguire]

4 minutes ago, SeredithWulfguire said:

It's true yeah 
But it doesn't change the fact I noticed considerably less damage on the whipclaw on my khora 
I'm just frustrated
Edit: Did a Sedna mission and it only did about 200 damage to the enemy which is disappointing

Also I do know of the whole Line of Sight thing, That's really bothersome too and I tried to not mind that bit too much since I could still play her then.

[Xaero]

6 minutes ago, SeredithWulfguire said:

It's true yeah 
But it doesn't change the fact I noticed considerably less damage on the whipclaw on my khora 
I'm just frustrated
Edit: Did a Sedna mission and it only did about 200 damage to the enemy which is disappointing

Perhaps you don't have a melee weapon equipped. Just tested her in Simulacrum and the damage is the same.

 

[PurrrningBoop]

7 минут назад, SeredithWulfguire сказал:

Edit: Did a Sedna mission and it only did about 200 damage to the enemy which is disappointing

Check your build and if the dragon keys are equipped. There is something very wrong on your end.

[SeredithWulfguire]

6 minutes ago, PurrrningBoop said:

Check your build and if the dragon keys are equipped. There is something very wrong on your end.

Checked for Dragon keys just in case, had none

 

7 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Perhaps you don't have a melee weapon equipped. Just tested her in Simulacrum and the damage is the same.

 

Checked if it was the weaponless fact, because I indeed was weaponless. 
I didn't know it matters on the weapon because yeah that was the issue??

[Xaero]

Just now, SeredithWulfguire said:

I didn't know it matters on the weapon because yeah that was the issue??

Khora's Whipclaw and some other abilities use your equipped melee as statsticks, which means that some mods equipped on melee apply to Whipclaw as well.

[SeredithWulfguire]

5 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Khora's Whipclaw and some other abilities use your equipped melee as statsticks, which means that some mods equipped on melee apply to Whipclaw as well.

Huh. Guess I've never noticed until the change was drastic lol.

[(PSN)Quantaminum]

[Leqesai]

Reading is power

Instead of coming onto the forums to whine and complain about something that wasn't changed, start with reading the patch notes and the wiki to figure out both what was actually changed and how to use the ability properly.

 

I'm certainly not one to defend stupid/asinine decisions by DE but you need to at least understand what the -actual- issues are before complaining...

[SeredithWulfguire]

54 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Reading is power

Instead of coming onto the forums to whine and complain about something that wasn't changed, start with reading the patch notes and the wiki to figure out both what was actually changed and how to use the ability properly.

 

I'm certainly not one to defend stupid/asinine decisions by DE but you need to at least understand what the -actual- issues are before complaining...

Well I was confused and annoyed, it also doesn't really say how the Whip ability links to your melee weapon within the small description of the ability. Either way though it's solved now. And I've been on the Khora bit of the wiki before but I couldn't see where it was located about the weapon stat-stacking... But I don't wear my glasses so my eyes aren't very focused all the time.Lol

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, SeredithWulfguire said:

Well I was confused and annoyed, it also doesn't really say how the Whip ability links to your melee weapon within the small description of the ability. Either way though it's solved now. And I've been on the Khora bit of the wiki before but I couldn't see where it was located about the weapon stat-stacking... But I don't wear my glasses so my eyes aren't very focused all the time.Lol

I will give you this, the ability pave definitely should explain the interaction and show modified values based on the stat stick mods. 

[KitMeHarder]

• Downplay

Firstly, I am completely saddened and beyond frustrated with how you downplayed such a large nerf. Not only did you include it in a very large “mainline” update, but you put it in the section where all the other frames got minor buffs; But also added the word “minimal” for no other reason but to downplay it further. I have seen you all use this technique before, and whether you used if for these or not, I have sat and watched you nerf Wukong, the Catchmoon, Bramma, Saryn, etc… But not only did you touch my baby, this is the first time you have fundamentally ruined an item in my time here.

• Mained for two years

I have mained Khora for over two years, I picked her up as soon as Accumulating Whipclaw was added. I mained her before you could equip Bloodrush, before Scarifical Steel was good, before she was a loot frame, etc… I used and enjoyed her long before the community at large thought she was good (which was 4 months ago), despite her having gained no direct/indirect power increases for over 12 months.

And despite maining her, she is far from the only frame I use (6-7% usage last I checked). So this isn’t a case of me only complaining when my toys are nerfed.

• Steel Essence Macros

And as such I’m sure you didn’t considered her a problem until the Steel Path was introduced. And probably not even because of all the Bandwagoners from YouTube that looked for their quick fix to their Kuva addiction, where they jumped on Khora because enough people promoted/demanded her; Thinking Pilfering Strangledome would work on SE (even though from everything I heard no loot ability worked on SE), because why wouldn’t it? No, it was the afk macro spammers that made out a very fun and active frame to be nothing more than a “stand still, spam one” frame. Which was only possible because they literally had robotic movement, and sat in a box that made them immune to enemy agro.

And now, despite that use case being nerfed, and then completely removed in the same update. You all have made a knee jerk reaction to something that wasn’t even a problem anymore, macro or not. And at best all I can think is that you thought “eh, we’ll completely maim this frame just so she can’t possibly be a problem in the future”.

• Steel Path problem, game wide nerf

And that’s my problem. Even if Eximus still dropped SE, you all didn’t nerf her where she was a problem in your eyes. You ruined her in literally every mission in the game. I literally used her in a single hour and half Steel Essence endurance mission and then never again. But for example, I love running her in bounties. And despite the nerf, I used her in my first Arcana bounty. A place where I aimed Whipclaw at an Ancient and there happened to be a piece of peeled ground at my crosshairs, sticking up about 3 inches. I then watched my 9 meter radius ability do no damage numbers. After that I couldn’t do it, and deployed Voidrig to finish the bounty.

It felt like how everyone described Vivergate. You saw a loot cave problem, and instead of fixing the reason people were using it, you just slapped a line-of-sight requirement on all the “problematic” abilities. Freely ruining frames at all levels of play, even for people that didn’t take part in the loot cave.

• Whipclaw already has capped range, and other items still do what Whipclaw did (Glaives)

And the thing it, this accomplishes nothing but ruin a frame that already has a capped range of 200% on her Whipclaw. Since there’s no reason to do Steel Path endurance runs (which was one of the few places Khora could actually sustain Accumulating Whipclaw and the 12x combo that gave her that power). Everywhere in the base game (sorties, floods, etc…), you can still do what her one did with the Kuva Bramma, Exodia Contagion, Hildryn, Kuva Ogris, even Atlas, etc…

And to make it even worse, you added the reworked Glaives in the same update. Monsters that have no falloff, no line-of-sight, no energy, no ammo, massive damage, and force procs of some of the strongest status effects in the game in a (before you nerfed Volatile Quick Return) in a 9-18 meter radius. And I don’t think Glaives are too powerful, even before their nerf (which if you wanted to reign in the Xoris, while keeping the others at their previous power, you should have made VQR 4.5-5 meters. Then I could justify the nerf). No, this is just here to show that I will still use the Glaives when Khora is unnerfed, and how blasphemous it was that you nerfed her despite adding better Whipclaws (90% of the time) in the same patch (they just have no synergy with her kit).

I would like to hope this rings deep, and it was just a poor choice, that ends up being a bump in the road in the grand scheme of things. But because of previous games I’ve been involved with, I literally had to take a week long mental break from this situation and community, and just enjoy the Xaku changes, Glaive changes, new weapons, etc… in ignorant bliss. Because you all have never in my almost three years here made such reality crushing nerfs like what happened with the previous game I played. So I had to get this off my chest now, or it was going to ruin my vacation that starts Sunday.

As such, I will be on top of this topic for as long as it takes, since it means that much to me. Thank you.

[Volkeris]

TL;DR my one click kill all button got balanced.

[Monolake]

TLDR : line-of-sight check on Whipclaw is buggy garbage and 30% of the time you do no damage to the enemies right in front of you in your crosshair.

[Sylonus]

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

• I have sat and watched you nerf Wukong, the Catchmoon, Bramma, Saryn, etc… But not only did you touch my baby, this is the first time you have fundamentally ruined an item in my time here.

This is what happens when people see things they don't use get nerfed and don't speak up until it his their babies, DE's nerfs have almost always been over reactionary and ham-fisted, the last nerf I can think of that I mostly agreed with was Chroma's Vex Armor, where they just toned it down from crazy levels to still very strong (And they should've buffed his other abilities at the same time.), but almost everything else from AOE falloff to weapon and frame nerfs have been really murdered statistically or terribly mishandled and feel terrible to use.

Few people really reacted strongly at all to Khora's nerf because this has become a situation that everyone expected, anything popular gets nerfed, hard, and often illogically, regardless of the reason. DE Claims to value player time, (Which is supposedly why we can't get universal medallions to work on conclave points, and why the Hema cost isn't lowered.) and then ruin the weapons and frames we devote time to building up and working on and tweaking, completely devaluing our work in a much more fundamental and substantial way than making something we have easier to get for others, they're literally taking some or all of what we've worked on away from us. It's their game, it's in their right, of course, but it certainly doesn't encourage a stable and happy playerbase, if they really think their game is a better, more balanced and fun game overall with the nerfs they've been implementing, they should do a few player polls and see how that adds up for them, but I very much doubt they'll like the responses.

Note: Don't think with this statement I hate Warframe or DE, there's a lot to love in the game, but this specific problem is the biggest one for me in terms of enjoying Warframe, for example, the last update had a handful of wonderful amazing weapons that I'm super enjoying, but in the back of my mind, I'm always thinking, when will they ruin these and make all the time I spent making them good go to waste.

[Cerikus]

9 minutes ago, Volkeris said:

TL;DR my one click kill all button got balanced.

I wish people would stop defending this nerf in this way, when it is obvious they have no idea how it actually affected the Warframe.If the nerf was reasonable, I would be probably onboard with DE. But the LoS check is a buggy unreliable mess. It is NOT about "my warframe got balanced"!

I beg you and people like you to take Khora into mission and realize that we are trying to bring attention to the fact, that Khora did NOT get nerfed. She got killed.

The issue is not about "my gun makes less dmg", but "my gun shoots and the bullet may or may not hit the enemy based on some unfunctional line of sight check.

[Sylonus]

4 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

I wish people would stop defending this nerf in this way, when it is obvious they have no idea how it actually affected the Warframe.If the nerf was reasonable, I would be probably onboard with DE. But the LoS check is a buggy unreliable mess. It is NOT about "my warframe got balanced"!

I beg you and people like you to take Khora into mission and realize that we are trying to bring attention to the fact, that Khora did NOT get nerfed. She got killed.

The issue is not about "my gun makes less dmg", but "my gun shoots and the bullet may or may not hit the enemy based on some unfunctional line of sight check.

It was literally one of the worst ways to go about nerfing her. (Not that she needed to be nerfed, she was fine and very underplayed before a specific farm became popular because of it's rewards that she happened to be well-suited for.)

The specific manner of nerf is such a terrible choice because in an open area, there's literally no change in her theoretical maximum power level, but in Corridorframe (which is most of the game) it makes her super annoying and inconvenient to use to the point of not using it. But I'm calling it now, they're going to have to nerf her (or Limbo) again when some farm that has an open area becomes popular due to it's good rewards, and we'll use Limbo to protect her while she whipclaws all the things due to the map being open so her abilities actually work well again.

[Cerikus]

1 minute ago, Sylonus said:

It was literally one of the worst ways to go about nerfing her, because in an open area, there's literally no change in her theoretical maximum power level, but in Corridorframe (which is most of the game) it makes her super annoying and inconvenient to use to the point of not using it. But I'm calling it now, they're going to have to nerf her (or Limbo) again when some farm that has an open area becomes popular due to it's good rewards, and we'll use Limbo to protect her while she whipclaws all the things due to the map being open so her abilities actually work well again.

If only that was true. Sometimes she doesn't even hit the enemies in open areas.

[Sylonus]

Just now, Cerikus said:

If only that was true. Sometimes she doesn't even hit the enemies in open areas.

You have to angle your whipclaw upwards, ground geometry is super insane, and even then, even before the nerf her hitbox accuracy was already unreliable, far worse now, but in a few zones, it's still really good, Stofler's top level comes to mind, if a map like that comes out that happens to have good rewards, Khora, or whatever protects Khora will get nerfed, calling it now.

[Cerikus]

4 minutes ago, Sylonus said:

You have to angle your whipclaw upwards, ground geometry is super insane, and even then, even before the nerf her hitbox accuracy was already unreliable, far worse now, but in a few zones, it's still really good, Stofler's top level comes to mind, if a map like that comes out that happens to have good rewards, Khora, or whatever protects Khora will get nerfed, calling it now.

Yeah, you are right. 

[Wyrmius_Prime]

3 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

• Steel Path problem, game wide nerf

And that’s my problem. Even if Eximus still dropped SE, you all didn’t nerf her where she was a problem in your eyes. You ruined her in literally every mission in the game. I literally used her in a single hour and half Steel Essence endurance mission and then never again. But for example, I love running her in bounties. And despite the nerf, I used her in my first Arcana bounty. A place where I aimed Whipclaw at an Ancient and there happened to be a piece of peeled ground at my crosshairs, sticking up about 3 inches. I then watched my 9 meter radius ability do no damage numbers. After that I couldn’t do it, and deployed Voidrig to finish the bounty.

Her damage output is still beyond broken in combination with her 4, and it is busted game-wide. Hopefully they smash Mesa next with the good old hammer.

[Berzerkules]

Just now, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Her damage output is still beyond broken in combination with her 4, and it is busted game-wide. Hopefully they smash Mesa next with the good old hammer.

Her damage is fine. Melee is the problem. No one wants to admit that though. Everyone would feel the hammer if DE actually fixed the cause of the problem. 

[kwlingo]

3 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

• Downplay

Firstly, I am completely saddened and beyond frustrated with how you downplayed such a large nerf. Not only did you include it in a very large “mainline” update, but you put it in the section where all the other frames got minor buffs; But also added the word “minimal” for no other reason but to downplay it further. I have seen you all use this technique before, and whether you used if for these or not, I have sat and watched you nerf Wukong, the Catchmoon, Bramma, Saryn, etc… But not only did you touch my baby, this is the first time you have fundamentally ruined an item in my time here.

• Mained for two years

I have mained Khora for over two years, I picked her up as soon as Accumulating Whipclaw was added. I mained her before you could equip Bloodrush, before Scarifical Steel was good, before she was a loot frame, etc… I used and enjoyed her long before the community at large thought she was good (which was 4 months ago), despite her having gained no direct/indirect power increases for over 12 months.

And despite maining her, she is far from the only frame I use (6-7% usage last I checked). So this isn’t a case of me only complaining when my toys are nerfed.

• Steel Essence Macros

And as such I’m sure you didn’t considered her a problem until the Steel Path was introduced. And probably not even because of all the Bandwagoners from YouTube that looked for their quick fix to their Kuva addiction, where they jumped on Khora because enough people promoted/demanded her; Thinking Pilfering Strangledome would work on SE (even though from everything I heard no loot ability worked on SE), because why wouldn’t it? No, it was the afk macro spammers that made out a very fun and active frame to be nothing more than a “stand still, spam one” frame. Which was only possible because they literally had robotic movement, and sat in a box that made them immune to enemy agro.

And now, despite that use case being nerfed, and then completely removed in the same update. You all have made a knee jerk reaction to something that wasn’t even a problem anymore, macro or not. And at best all I can think is that you thought “eh, we’ll completely maim this frame just so she can’t possibly be a problem in the future”.

• Steel Path problem, game wide nerf

And that’s my problem. Even if Eximus still dropped SE, you all didn’t nerf her where she was a problem in your eyes. You ruined her in literally every mission in the game. I literally used her in a single hour and half Steel Essence endurance mission and then never again. But for example, I love running her in bounties. And despite the nerf, I used her in my first Arcana bounty. A place where I aimed Whipclaw at an Ancient and there happened to be a piece of peeled ground at my crosshairs, sticking up about 3 inches. I then watched my 9 meter radius ability do no damage numbers. After that I couldn’t do it, and deployed Voidrig to finish the bounty.

It felt like how everyone described Vivergate. You saw a loot cave problem, and instead of fixing the reason people were using it, you just slapped a line-of-sight requirement on all the “problematic” abilities. Freely ruining frames at all levels of play, even for people that didn’t take part in the loot cave.

• Whipclaw already has capped range, and other items still do what Whipclaw did (Glaives)

And the thing it, this accomplishes nothing but ruin a frame that already has a capped range of 200% on her Whipclaw. Since there’s no reason to do Steel Path endurance runs (which was one of the few places Khora could actually sustain Accumulating Whipclaw and the 12x combo that gave her that power). Everywhere in the base game (sorties, floods, etc…), you can still do what her one did with the Kuva Bramma, Exodia Contagion, Hildryn, Kuva Ogris, even Atlas, etc…

And to make it even worse, you added the reworked Glaives in the same update. Monsters that have no falloff, no line-of-sight, no energy, no ammo, massive damage, and force procs of some of the strongest status effects in the game in a (before you nerfed Volatile Quick Return) in a 9-18 meter radius. And I don’t think Glaives are too powerful, even before their nerf (which if you wanted to reign in the Xoris, while keeping the others at their previous power, you should have made VQR 4.5-5 meters. Then I could justify the nerf). No, this is just here to show that I will still use the Glaives when Khora is unnerfed, and how blasphemous it was that you nerfed her despite adding better Whipclaws (90% of the time) in the same patch (they just have no synergy with her kit).

@[DE]Rebecca Because you’re the head of the community
@[DE]Grineeer And because whether this was your choice or not, you are the head and public face of all things balance in this game

I would like to hope this rings deep, and it was just a poor choice, that ends up being a bump in the road in the grand scheme of things. But because of previous games I’ve been involved with, I literally had to take a week long mental break from this situation and community, and just enjoy the Xaku changes, Glaive changes, new weapons, etc… in ignorant bliss. Because you all have never in my almost three years here made such reality crushing nerfs like what happened with the previous game I played. So I had to get this off my chest now, or it was going to ruin my vacation that starts Sunday.

As such, I will be on top of this topic for as long as it takes, since it means that much to me. Thank you.

 

[Bakaguya-sama]

Still can't conceive how you "Khora mains" are missing your whips.  

DE should have given Khora a real nerf. Seeing that people are already crying over this minimal, virtually non-existent one.   

Steel Path did it what supposed to do. It is a slightly higher level of play where your standard Saryn and Mesa takes a a few seconds longer to kill everything ,(or change your build up a bit in the case of Saryn). That gives people a chance to actually play the game, and not passively watch as AoE nukeframe kill everything before they even get to see them. So those who wants to play Cookie Clicker or AFK game can stick with normal gameplay, and those who wants to play an actual action game go to Steel Path. It's not exactly high-octane, but its still better than nothing.  

  But not for Khora. She still one shot enemies with her absurd AoE damage output, even in Steel Path.  

This is why DE finally decided to "nerf" Khora after all this times. They finally wanted to make Warframe a slightly more challenging experience, and Khora is in the way of that.  

I don't care either way about the LoS "nerf". DE can keep or revert it, it doesn't matter to me 1 but because I can barely feel it and it does not affect my gameplay.  DE should go straight after Accumulative Whipclaw and statstick interaction to deal with Khora. You can cut her damage ourput by 50-75% and she will still 1 shot most enemies in the game.  

[Berzerkules]

35 minutes ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

Still can't conceive how you "Khora mains" are missing your whips.  

Sometimes you literally can not hit enemies stuck in dome if they are pulled against a wall from the other side. 

Here are a few examples.

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

40 minutes ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

 

I don't care either way about the LoS "nerf". DE can keep or revert it, it doesn't matter to me 1 but because I can barely feel it and it does not affect my gameplay.  DE should go straight after Accumulative Whipclaw and statstick interaction to deal with Khora. You can cut her damage ourput by 50-75% and she will still 1 shot most enemies in the game.  

You might not care about the nerf but you hardly play Khora. Hardly noticing a broken game mechanic does not excuse the fact that it is broken. I don't play Hildryn so the fact that Energy Siphon makes her totally immortal (unless you get a toxic proc) ioes not effect me. It's still a broken and should be fixed. 

Stat sticks and Accumulating Whipclaw are not the problem melee as a whole is. Mods like Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds and Condition Overload are way too strong. No one wants to admit it because everyone would be effected if DE actually did something about melee. Nerfing the LoS of Khora's whip does nothing to actually address the source of her power. 

[Bakaguya-sama]

At least killing things with melee weapons still require you to see your enemies and be close to them. And They are already nerfed hard from the old spin2win days, Meta melees had waay more damage and range than they do now.  Real nerfs. Not whatever pass for this "Khora nerf". 

But sure. I agree. DE should fix the slightly buggy LoS check (for Ember's sake). Then hit Khora with real nerfs. Cut the base damage. Cut the base crit chance on her whips. Make Accumulative Whipclaw multiplicative to Ability Strength instead of additive so I can't just run Overextend + for free.  

I would gladly see Melee getting nerfed if all the nukeframes get nerfed first. Saryn, Mesa, Khora, and anything else that rears their ugly heads like Baruuk and Protea.  As of right now I see melee as the much lesser of 2 evils. Again, at the very least, you are still looking at your enemies while you kill them.