Status Immunity Solution

[(PSN)thegarada]

Whenever DE wants to make something that can handle player damage, it is always immune to status. This creates enemies that are unnecessary tanky while others melt like cheese in an oven. It is highly uneven and unfun experience.

A possible solution that can work is similar to break bars in MMOs. The enemy can be immune for a number of status applied (lets say first 20), then after that status do damage. This can work in creating enemies that can handle damage, without being immune or become damage sponges. Semi bosses can also have a reset requiring application after receiving 25% or 50% damage of their total HP. This preserves weapons strength without making them able to melt semi bosses and bosses in 1-2 secs.

[Reitrix]

Better way to achieve that is to rework how players deal damage with mods.

In a world where we can mod a weapon to hit for millions of damage, bosses need to have absurd invulnerability phases or just be plain immune to our statuses otherwise they'd be about as dangerous as a Grineer Lancer.

Lowering the insane numbers we can achieve while adjusting regular mob HP to achieve a similar TTK as now would allow them to actually be creative with boss mechanics instead of an endless parade of invulnerability gates and "throw the thing to break the shields and then one shot it".

[BornWithTeeth]

30 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

Better way to achieve that is to rework how players deal damage with mods.

In a world where we can mod a weapon to hit for millions of damage, bosses need to have absurd invulnerability phases or just be plain immune to our statuses otherwise they'd be about as dangerous as a Grineer Lancer.

Lowering the insane numbers we can achieve while adjusting regular mob HP to achieve a similar TTK as now would allow them to actually be creative with boss mechanics instead of an endless parade of invulnerability gates and "throw the thing to break the shields and then one shot it".

"If we flatten out the absurd damage output and power scaling of the Tenno, then we can suddenly have much more balanced enemy engagements," is an obvious and sensible conclusion, which will also result in immediate REEEEEEEEEEEEEing about 'muh power fantasy' from a significant number of players.

[Aadi880]

Nah just make crit immune enemies to balance it out >:)

 

[Nylmin]

Il y a 1 heure, BornWithTeeth a dit :

"If we flatten out the absurd damage output and power scaling of the Tenno, then we can suddenly have much more balanced enemy engagements," is an obvious and sensible conclusion, which will also result in immediate REEEEEEEEEEEEEing about 'muh power fantasy' from a significant number of players.

True, but DE should really start to base their decisions on what is the best for their game instead of the player base whims.

One perfect example : Archwing in openworld is 100% a decision they regret and rightfully so. The addition of K-Drive later on is quite a statement for that. It ruins the immersion and basically makes obsolete all the works put into their detailed world. Being able to bullet jump ceaselessly, as well. When they reworked Jupiter I did a few missions without roaming the map like we all do by bullet jumping into bullet jumping and... Damn. I was baffled by how beautiful this place is when you take the time to look at it.

But these very needed changes, as well, as you said, as the flattening of our ridiculous damage output will never occur.

Because yeah... The community will just whine...

DE is trying its ass off to create a compelling, immersive, rich world while its player base just wants to customize their frames like an overly contrasted christmas tree and melt everything in sight...

I'm all for different strokes for different folks, but every update makes it clearer that DE is kind of regretting the direction that its game took gameplay wise.

[BornWithTeeth]

2 minutes ago, Nylmin said:

True, but DE should really start to base their decision on what is the best for their game instand of the player base whims.

One perfect example : Archwing in openworld is 100% a decision they regret and rightfully so. The addition of K-Drive later on is quite a statement for that. It ruins the immersion and basically make obsolete all the works put into their detailed world. Being able to bullet jump ceaselessly, as well. When they reworked Jupiter I did a few missions without roaming the map like we all do by bullet jumping into bullet jumping and... Damn. I was baffled by how beautiful this place is when you take the time to look at it.

But these very needed changes, as well, as you said, as the flattening of our ridiculous damage output will never occurs.

Because yeah... The community will just whine...

DE is trying its ass off to create a compelling, immersive, rich world while its player base just wants to customize their frames like an overly contrasted christmas tree and melt everything its sight...

I'm all for different strokes for different folks, but every update makes it clearer that DE is kind of regretting the direction that its game took gameplay wise.

DE's original visual design and concept: A gorgeous, grim, post-apocalypse space shooter-slasher, dripping with atmosphere and menace, with mute, threatening protagonists of questionable humanity.

DE's gameplay outcome: a high speed pachinko machine.

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, Reitrix said:

Better way to achieve that is to rework how players deal damage with mods.

In a world where we can mod a weapon to hit for millions of damage, bosses need to have absurd invulnerability phases or just be plain immune to our statuses otherwise they'd be about as dangerous as a Grineer Lancer.

Lowering the insane numbers we can achieve while adjusting regular mob HP to achieve a similar TTK as now would allow them to actually be creative with boss mechanics instead of an endless parade of invulnerability gates and "throw the thing to break the shields and then one shot it".

In addition, rework how resource management interacts with the Arsenal. It should be more on the player. Throw the bulk of energy generation into play (weapons and for some frames, their abilities similar to the likes of Limbo or Nidus) and we're golden. 

The ideal should be that big nukes or wide-ranging CC's should be comparitively rare to smaller-scale powers. Make the smaller ones as, or even more spammable than they are now, and the big league powers a bit rarer, and that should hopefully get shot of press-4-to-win.

[Reitrix]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

In addition, rework how resource management interacts with the Arsenal. It should be more on the player. Throw the bulk of energy generation into play (weapons and for some frames, their abilities similar to the likes of Limbo or Nidus) and we're golden. 

The ideal should be that big nukes or wide-ranging CC's should be comparitively rare to smaller-scale powers. Make the smaller ones as, or even more spammable than they are now, and the big league powers a bit rarer, and that should hopefully get shot of press-4-to-win.

Honestly I'd love for Energy to be a Build/Spend thing with the first 2 abilities generating Energy and the second 2 abilities consuming it. 

But I'm biased because I really just enjoy Gauss and how his 2 feeds Thermal Sunders to feed his Redline gauge.

I think Ember would benefit a bit from that kind of thing. Hurl fireballs to build the energy required to drop meteors on everything. 

[Loza03]

57 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

Honestly I'd love for Energy to be a Build/Spend thing with the first 2 abilities generating Energy and the second 2 abilities consuming it. 

But I'm biased because I really just enjoy Gauss and how his 2 feeds Thermal Sunders to feed his Redline gauge.

I think Ember would benefit a bit from that kind of thing. Hurl fireballs to build the energy required to drop meteors on everything. 

Agreed, albeit not necessarily with every frame having the same build/spend setup for variety's sake. Some frames need less energy and cast fewer abilities than others, and that's OK. That's why I'd put it a bit on weapons too, give the system system a decent enough baseline (perhaps more energy gain for less meta weapons?) and then implement more energy gain into the abilities of hungrier frames.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

15 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

"If we flatten out the absurd damage output and power scaling of the Tenno, then we can suddenly have much more balanced enemy engagements," is an obvious and sensible conclusion, which will also result in immediate REEEEEEEEEEEEEing about 'muh power fantasy' from a significant number of players.

Players already REEEEEing about Deimos Jugulus having scaling damage reduction based on DPS and Lephantis damage caps, but they are a minority.

DE already nerfed Corrosive with a cap and most players just moved on.

At Sortie level, armor could provide +95% damage reduction, or a +20x multiplier to health and pre-nerf Corrosive used to be able to strip all that off allowing you to do +20x more damage. Stripping 80% armor, 6000 armor (95% DR) to 1200 armor (80% DR) is just a 4x multiplier.

Some of the player base actually thought this was a buff because you didn't lose out on the piddly 1.75x multiplier against Ferrite (no multiplier against Alloy which half of Grineer wear). 

If DE suddenly made Base Damage, Elemental Damage and Critical Damage all additive instead of multiplicative that it is right now, most of the player base won't even notice and I don't fault them. 

The current system where this +Damage is multiplicative with this other +Damage, but is only additive with this other +Damage is terribly convoluted and most players don't even understand it as they scoff at Banes which Slash procs double dip into for some reason. 

The current damage system is needlessly convoluted and doesn't really add anything as players just stack as many different multipliers 8 slots can give them. If more of our damage was additive, we wouldn't have gotten to the point where DE had to invent the Exilus slot for players to actually consider non-damage mods.

 

 

 

[Reitrix]

8 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Players already REEEEEing about Deimos Jugulus having scaling damage reduction based on DPS and Lephantis damage caps, but they are a minority.

DE already nerfed Corrosive with a cap and most players just moved on.

At Sortie level, armor could provide +95% damage reduction, or a +20x multiplier to health and pre-nerf Corrosive used to be able to strip all that off allowing you to do +20x more damage. Stripping 80% armor, 6000 armor (95% DR) to 1200 armor (80% DR) is just a 4x multiplier.

Some of the player base actually thought this was a buff because you didn't lose out on the piddly 1.75x multiplier against Ferrite (no multiplier against Alloy which half of Grineer wear). 

If DE suddenly made Base Damage, Elemental Damage and Critical Damage all additive instead of multiplicative that it is right now, most of the player base won't even notice and I don't fault them. 

The current system where this +Damage is multiplicative with this other +Damage, but is only additive with this other +Damage is terribly convoluted and most players don't even understand it as they scoff at Banes which Slash procs double dip into for some reason. 

The current damage system is needlessly convoluted and doesn't really add anything as players just stack as many different multipliers 8 slots can give them. If more of our damage was additive, we wouldn't have gotten to the point where DE had to invent the Exilus slot for players to actually consider non-damage mods.

 

 

 

I kind of want DE to rework the entire mod system in general.

Not just to correct our absurd damage output that leads to mobs needing 99% DR to be a threat to us but also to increase build variety in a meaningful and interesting way. 

Imagine a world where we had 12 Mod slots for a given weapon but they were divided into Damage/Utility/Exilus slots.

You'd be able to put  raw damage mods in and have a lot of room left over for more interesting or less damage focused mods without risking players just filling every slot with damage. 

That way when DE makes new Mods that aren't OP BS like Condition Overload etc, but have an interesting or fun mechanic we can use them without feeling like we're sacrificing massive chunks of damage.

A pipedream I know. Doesn't change my feelings on it lol. 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

2 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

I kind of want DE to rework the entire mod system in general.

Not just to correct our absurd damage output that leads to mobs needing 99% DR to be a threat to us but also to increase build variety in a meaningful and interesting way. 

Imagine a world where we had 12 Mod slots for a given weapon but they were divided into Damage/Utility/Exilus slots.

You'd be able to put  raw damage mods in and have a lot of room left over for more interesting or less damage focused mods without risking players just filling every slot with damage. 

That way when DE makes new Mods that aren't OP BS like Condition Overload etc, but have an interesting or fun mechanic we can use them without feeling like we're sacrificing massive chunks of damage.

A pipedream I know. Doesn't change my feelings on it lol. 

If most damage mods were additive instead of multiplicative, there would be a compelling choice for utility mods without having dedicated slots.

Give players more exilus slots and players will fill those out no differently than damage mods because why not? Free lowered recoil. 

The issue with the current system is that extra ammo, reduced recoil can't compete with an entire multiplier and these stacking multipliers lead to DE introducing damage caps and insane DR.

[Reitrix]

2 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

If most damage mods were additive instead of multiplicative, there would be a compelling choice for utility mods without having dedicated slots.

Give players more exilus slots and players will fill those out no differently than damage mods because why not? Free lowered recoil. 

The issue with the current system is that extra ammo, reduced recoil can't compete with an entire multiplier and these stacking multipliers lead to DE introducing damage caps and insane DR.

Right. That's why I suggested that of the mod slots available, they'd be restricted to certain mod types only. 

So you'd first mod for damage and then add in utility stuff like conditionals (Things like Nano Applicator etc) and lastly Exilus stuff for QoL like ammo, recoil, zoom or whatever else DE comes up with.

The general idea would be to have dedicated damage slots and dedicated non damage slots.

So then you'd be able to fill out your damage slots and then make gameplay tweaks via the other dedicated slots without being forced to fill every slot with damage like our present universal slots are. 

Leaves open room for fun new non damage mods to shine. 

Then they can make all the adjustments they need to the multiplicative/additive formula used for damage to make things more compelling. 

[SneakyErvin]

One thing they could do for damage balance is rework how the elemental mods work. Right now they are a multiplier to the base damage, they should rework them to simply be a non-damage contributing mutator.

Slap on a 60/60 mod and you suddenly have 60% of the present damage turned into that element, so if you had say a 100 impact weapon and you slap on a toxin mod it will now be 40 impact and 60 toxin. Slapping on 2x60/60 mods would not result in impact getting removed, it would result in you getting 40 impact and 60 viral for instance. Then further elemental mods you add will simply split the elemental pool on the weapon. So lets say you add 3 60/60 mods, toxin, cold and heat in that order, you'd then sit with 40 impact, 30 viral and 30 heat on that weapon. And then obviously if you slot 5+ elemental mods on for 3 total elemental types you'd sit on 40/20/20/20.

With such a change they could rework the 90 mods into simple 60% mods while keeping the current combined status+elemental mods at 60/60 to account for rarity and have them as straight upgrades. Obviously primed mods would have to be reworked, but that could be easily done by changing them into status+elemental mods that give 120% status chance and a 60% elemental mutator.

And on multi stat weapons the mutator % per stat would be based on the innate distribution percentage. On a weapons with 33/33/34 it would convert 20% from each line for a total of 60% since 20% is 1/3 of 60%.

[Aldain]

On 2020-11-27 at 4:53 AM, BornWithTeeth said:

which will also result in immediate REEEEEEEEEEEEEing about 'muh power fantasy' from a significant number of players.

At this point it needs to happen no matter how many people screech about it.

Warframe is stagnating because of the power creep, every bit of new content is either the same 1 button slaughterhouse or something that has to ignore all of the game's rules just to NOT be a 1 button slaughterhouse.

No amount of new weapons, Warframes, or environments will fix that, the hammer needs to come down on this utter nonsensical balance.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

1 hour ago, Reitrix said:

Right. That's why I suggested that of the mod slots available, they'd be restricted to certain mod types only. 

So you'd first mod for damage and then add in utility stuff like conditionals (Things like Nano Applicator etc) and lastly Exilus stuff for QoL like ammo, recoil, zoom or whatever else DE comes up with.

The general idea would be to have dedicated damage slots and dedicated non damage slots.

So then you'd be able to fill out your damage slots and then make gameplay tweaks via the other dedicated slots without being forced to fill every slot with damage like our present universal slots are. 

Leaves open room for fun new non damage mods to shine. 

Then they can make all the adjustments they need to the multiplicative/additive formula used for damage to make things more compelling. 

Right now: Serration + 2x90% Elementals + Vital Sense + Multishot + Bane

Damage Multiplier= (1+%Base Damage)x(1+%Elemental Damage)x(Crit Multiplier x(1+%Crit Damage))x (1+%Multishot)x(1+Faction Damage)

Damage Multiplier = (1+1.65)x(1+0.9+0.9)x(2.0+1.2)x(1+0.9)x(1+0.3)

Damage Multiplier = 58.7

Ditching Serration = 22.1

Losing out on 62% of your damage if you ditch Serration.

Suggested:

Damage Multiplier= (1+%Base Damage+%Elemental Damage+ (Crit Multiplier x (1+% Crit Damage))x(1+Faction Damage)

Damage Multiplier = (1+1.65+0.9+0.9+(2.0+1.2))x(1+0.9)x(1+0.3)

Damage Multiplier = 12.4

Ditching Serration = 10.7

Losing 14% of your damage if you ditch Serration. In this situation, reduced recoil helping you get more headshots is up for consideration and bosses will be easier to balance.

 

[Reitrix]

24 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Right now: Serration + 2x90% Elementals + Vital Sense + Multishot + Bane

Damage Multiplier= (1+%Base Damage)x(1+%Elemental Damage)x(Crit Multiplier x(1+%Crit Damage))x (1+%Multishot)x(1+Faction Damage)

Damage Multiplier = (1+1.65)x(1+0.9+0.9)x(2.0+1.2)x(1+0.9)x(1+0.3)

Damage Multiplier = 58.7

Ditching Serration = 22.1

Losing out on 62% of your damage if you ditch Serration.

Suggested:

Damage Multiplier= (1+%Base Damage+%Elemental Damage+ (Crit Multiplier x (1+% Crit Damage))x(1+Faction Damage)

Damage Multiplier = (1+1.65+0.9+0.9+(2.0+1.2))x(1+0.9)x(1+0.3)

Damage Multiplier = 12.4

Ditching Serration = 10.7

Losing 14% of your damage if you ditch Serration. In this situation, reduced recoil helping you get more headshots is up for consideration and bosses will be easier to balance.

 

Right. But this change alone won't resolve all the issues regarding damage and modding. 

I'm not saying do one over the other. 

What I'm suggesting is we do what you suggest in this quoted posted AND what I suggested in the post you quoted. 

To be more specific, imagine the following scenario:

Weapons have 12 total Mod Slots and your suggested change to damage is in place.

6 slots can only be filled by Mods in the category of "damage". Mods like Serration, Elements and Status/Crit.

4 slots are dedicated to "Utility" or indirect damage Mods. Such as Recoil, RoF and Conditionals like Argon Scope or Nano Applicator.

And the last 2 dedicated to Exilus mods like Zoom and Ammo etc.

Those slots would act like Exilus slots do right now, restricting what can be placed there.

If you only change the damage formula, the best course will still be to fill all 8 slots with damage boosts.

The reason for that hard distinction on Mod Slot Type is to put an organic limit on how many damage boosts you can apply so you aren't obligated to fill every slot with damage. 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

5 hours ago, Reitrix said:

Right. But this change alone won't resolve all the issues regarding damage and modding. 

I'm not saying do one over the other. 

What I'm suggesting is we do what you suggest in this quoted posted AND what I suggested in the post you quoted. 

To be more specific, imagine the following scenario:

Weapons have 12 total Mod Slots and your suggested change to damage is in place.

6 slots can only be filled by Mods in the category of "damage". Mods like Serration, Elements and Status/Crit.

4 slots are dedicated to "Utility" or indirect damage Mods. Such as Recoil, RoF and Conditionals like Argon Scope or Nano Applicator.

And the last 2 dedicated to Exilus mods like Zoom and Ammo etc.

Those slots would act like Exilus slots do right now, restricting what can be placed there.

If you only change the damage formula, the best course will still be to fill all 8 slots with damage boosts.

The reason for that hard distinction on Mod Slot Type is to put an organic limit on how many damage boosts you can apply so you aren't obligated to fill every slot with damage. 

The problem with extra dedicated Exilus slots is that there is no reason not to fill them up. All mods whether they give damage or not make a weapon more efficient.

Faster reload, better ammo economy translates into better sustained DPS. Reduced recoil help you land shots.

RoF is a direct damage mod that is multiplicative with Damage and Multi-shot with the caveat of burning more ammo, but most builds don't have the room to slot it in. If there is room, there is no reason not to mod for RoF.

Changing the formula to be more additive makes each extra damage mod less valuable so that other things are up for consideration. People already ditch Serration for Amalgam Serration for that extra Sprint Speed because that +10% Base Damage is so negligible.

There is a point where a little extra damage is just worse than better reload speed or handling.

The Primed Bane mods with +55% Damage against Faction are some of the strongest damage mods mathematically speaking because it's another multiplier which double dips on Slash procs, but most people don't bother with them because they are cumbersome to change out not to mention the endo cost.