Confusing Glaive Inputs

[Sevek7]

Hi all. I made a post in the Glaive feedback megathread about differing controls for glaive detonation in Glaive & Gun mode versus Melee mode. This was later addressed in Hotfix 29.5.4: 

Glaive Changes & Fixes:

• Alt fire will now also Heavy Attack the Glaive in Glaive+Gun mode. The original design intent was to reserve Alt Fire for the Secondary weapon, but a scenario where Secondary Alt Fire is needed while Glaive is in flight over Heavy Attack is extremely low. Bringing parity to Heavy Attack input in Dual Wield and Melee Equipped modes is far more important. Thank you so much for all the excellent feedback!

I'm not sure what the intention was here. As far as I can tell, it's taken one confusing system and replaced it with another more confusing one, increasing the number of inputs from 2 to 3 while still keeping the controls different in the two modes. From my understanding, here is the story of what's happened: 

Before 29.5.4: 

In Glaive & Gun mode: Hold melee button to throw the glaive, press melee button again while in flight to detonate glaive and return it to your hand.

In Melee mode: Hold melee button to throw the glaive, press heavy attack button while in flight to detonate glaive and return it to your hand. 

After 29.5.4: 

In Glaive & Gun mode: Hold melee button to throw the glaive, press alt-fire button while in flight to detonate glaive and return it to your hand.

In Melee mode: Hold melee button to throw the glaive, press heavy attack button while in flight to detonate glaive and return it to your hand.

 

So, there is still no "parity," assuming "parity" refers to the controls in both modes being the same. Why not just make the heavy attack button detonate the glaive in both modes? That way there would be no confusion at all. Instead, an extra input (alt-fire) was added, only serving to complicate the system more. It seems that this system was designed for people who have alt-fire and heavy attack bound to the same key, but it simply messes up the controls for everybody else! 

My Suggestion:

In Glaive & Gun mode: Hold melee button to throw the glaive, press heavy attack or Alt-Fire button while in flight to detonate glaive and return to your hand. 

In Melee mode: Hold melee button to throw the glaive, press heavy attack or Alt-Fire button while in flight to detonate glaive and return it to your hand.

Also include a toggle in settings for "Glaive recall includes detonation" [This was already done for "Context action includes reload"] for people who want to only use a single button, instead of 2 (or 3 in the current overcomplicated system). 

[T-REXFury]

After the hotfix it bugged the fluidity of glaive throwing if you explode it, it sucks and it was better 2 double tap melee button 2 explode while dual wielding than pushing 2 buttons.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

9 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Hi all. I made a post in the Glaive feedback megathread about differing controls for glaive detonation in Glaive & Gun mode versus Melee mode. This was later addressed in Hotfix 29.5.4: 

Glaive Changes & Fixes:

• Alt fire will now also Heavy Attack the Glaive in Glaive+Gun mode. The original design intent was to reserve Alt Fire for the Secondary weapon, but a scenario where Secondary Alt Fire is needed while Glaive is in flight over Heavy Attack is extremely low. Bringing parity to Heavy Attack input in Dual Wield and Melee Equipped modes is far more important. Thank you so much for all the excellent feedback!

I'm not sure what the intention was here. As far as I can tell, it's taken one confusing system and replaced it with another more confusing one, increasing the number of inputs from 2 to 3 while still keeping the controls different in the two modes. From my understanding, here is the story of what's happened: 

Before 29.5.4: 

In Glaive & Gun mode: Hold melee button to throw the glaive, press melee button again while in flight to detonate glaive and return it to your hand.

In Melee mode: Hold melee button to throw the glaive, press heavy attack button while in flight to detonate glaive and return it to your hand. 

After 29.5.4: 

In Glaive & Gun mode: Hold melee button to throw the glaive, press alt-fire button while in flight to detonate glaive and return it to your hand.

In Melee mode: Hold melee button to throw the glaive, press heavy attack button while in flight to detonate glaive and return it to your hand.

 

So, there is still no "parity," assuming "parity" refers to the controls in both modes being the same. Why not just make the heavy attack button detonate the glaive in both modes? That way there would be no confusion at all. Instead, an extra input (alt-fire) was added, only serving to complicate the system more. It seems that this system was designed for people who have alt-fire and heavy attack bound to the same key, but it simply messes up the controls for everybody else! 

My Suggestion:

In Glaive & Gun mode: Hold melee button to throw the glaive, press heavy attack or Alt-Fire button while in flight to detonate glaive and return to your hand. 

In Melee mode: Hold melee button to throw the glaive, press heavy attack or Alt-Fire button while in flight to detonate glaive and return it to your hand.

Also include a toggle in settings for "Glaive recall includes detonation" [This was already done for "Context action includes reload"] for people who want to only use a single button, instead of 2 (or 3 in the current overcomplicated system). 

I can't speak for PC Controls but i can clarify for PlayStation Controls.

- On PlayStation, when in just normal Melee Mode, you could throw the Glaive 2 ways. Either by holding Melee (circle) and you'd throw only after the 1st Melee attack, or by Pressing/Holding Alt Fire (R3). After being thrown you can detonate with both tapping Melee (circle) or tapping Alt Fire (R3).

- However, when in Glaive & Gun mode, you only had 1 option, as when you Press/Hold Alt Fire (R3) it prioritized your Secondary Guns Alt Fire. So you had to hold Melee (circle) to throw it, which meant it was slower as you had to wait for that 1st Melee Attack to finish. On top of that, Pressing/Holding Melee (circle) doesn't detonate the Glaive, Alt Fire (R3) does.

In other words, the PS4/5 controls were all over the place, and this is a cleanup. Its simply separating Glaives Attacks from its Throw by separating the inputs. (circle) only for Glaive Attacks and (R3) only for Glaive Throws and Detonations. Bringing it in line with almost all other weapons with Alt Fire options.

For PlayStation the Heavy Attack button IS the Alt Fire button, (R3).

Hope that clarifies it from the PlayStation Controls side 

[Sevek7]

5 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

I can't speak for PC Controls but i can clarify for PlayStation Controls.

- On PlayStation, when in just normal Melee Mode, you could throw the Glaive 2 ways. Either by holding Melee (circle) and you'd throw only after the 1st Melee attack, or by Pressing/Holding Alt Fire (R3). After being thrown you can detonate with both tapping Melee (circle) or tapping Alt Fire (R3).

- However, when in Glaive & Gun mode, you only had 1 option, as when you Press/Hold Alt Fire (R3) it prioritized your Secondary Guns Alt Fire. So you had to hold Melee (circle) to throw it, which meant it was slower as you had to wait for that 1st Melee Attack to finish. On top of that, Pressing/Holding Melee (circle) doesn't detonate the Glaive, Alt Fire (R3) does.

In other words, the PS4/5 controls were all over the place, and this is a cleanup. Its simply separating Glaives Attacks from its Throw by separating the inputs. (circle) only for Glaive Attacks and (R3) only for Glaive Throws and Detonations. Bringing it in line with almost all other weapons with Alt Fire options.

For PlayStation the Heavy Attack button IS the Alt Fire button, (R3).

Hope that clarifies it from the PlayStation Controls side 

Yup, that makes perfect sense! It's the exact same as my suggestion, streamlining the controls so you can freely throw & detonate glaives using the same inputs in both modes and a minimal number of total inputs. 

Clearly they have the right idea, but I don't understand why they can't also do it on PC.

[Sevek7]

7 hours ago, T-REXFury said:

After the hotfix it bugged the fluidity of glaive throwing if you explode it, it sucks and it was better 2 double tap melee button 2 explode while dual wielding than pushing 2 buttons.

Agreed! I understand that they want the two separate controls for "recall" and "detonate," so I understand making the melee button recall and heavy attack detonate. For those who like detonate, I think they should add an option "Glaive recall includes detonation" so you can throw and explode with a single button, as you said. 

[(PSN)MYKK678]

36 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Yup, that makes perfect sense! It's the exact same as my suggestion, streamlining the controls so you can freely throw & detonate glaives using the same inputs in both modes and a minimal number of total inputs. 

Clearly they have the right idea, but I don't understand why they can't also do it on PC.

The only thing i can guess is its because of the last part of my reply there.

Because the PS4/5 obv has limited buttons, they had no choice but to make R3 both Alt Fire and Heavy Attack. Literally never played on PC so this is just a guess, but i'm guessing as PC has multiple Key options, Heavy Attack and Alt Fire have separate Keys? If so then its just a new method to get used to really. Games that release on PC and Consoles often have across-the-board compromises like this. Either way though, with the way DE listed the change, you'll just throw with Alt Fire on both PC and PS4/5  now.

[Sevek7]

24 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Because the PS4/5 obv has limited buttons, they had no choice but to make R3 both Alt Fire and Heavy Attack. Literally never played on PC so this is just a guess, but i'm guessing as PC has multiple Key options, Heavy Attack and Alt Fire have separate Keys?

Yes, melee, alt-fire, and heavy attack all have separate keys on PC. 

24 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Games that release on PC and Consoles often have across-the-board compromises like this.

I understand sometimes needing compromise, but I don't think its necessary in this case! I think both PC and console can have good inputs.

25 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Either way though, with the way DE listed the change, you'll just throw with Alt Fire on both PC and PS4/5  now.

But this isn't how it currently works on PC. If you could press alt fire to throw and then again to detonate, that would be great! Instead we hold melee to throw, and then alt-fire (separate key) to detonate. Unless you're in melee mode! If you're in melee mode, you hold melee to throw, and then press heavy attack (third separate key!) to detonate. This is unnecessarily convoluted and confusing. 

16 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

My Suggestion:

In Glaive & Gun mode: Hold melee button to throw the glaive, press heavy attack or Alt-Fire button while in flight to detonate glaive and return to your hand. 

In Melee mode: Hold melee button to throw the glaive, press heavy attack or Alt-Fire button while in flight to detonate glaive and return it to your hand.

Here was my suggestion. Notice that it maintains the current controls for you, because alt-fire and heavy attack are the same button for you. For PC, it allows us to use the same controls in glaive & gun as in melee mode. Nobody loses, there is no compromise! Everybody has good inputs! 

[(PSN)MYKK678]

54 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Yes, melee, alt-fire, and heavy attack all have separate keys on PC. 

I understand sometimes needing compromise, but I don't think its necessary in this case! I think both PC and console can have good inputs.

But this isn't how it currently works on PC. If you could press alt fire to throw and then again to detonate, that would be great! Instead we hold melee to throw, and then alt-fire (separate key) to detonate. Unless you're in melee mode! If you're in melee mode, you hold melee to throw, and then press heavy attack (third separate key!) to detonate. This is unnecessarily convoluted and confusing. 

Here was my suggestion. Notice that it maintains the current controls for you, because alt-fire and heavy attack are the same button for you. For PC, it allows us to use the same controls in glaive & gun as in melee mode. Nobody loses, there is no compromise! Everybody has good inputs! 

Actually to fix it on PC would only require 1 adjustment, not an overhaul.

As DE said and you quoted: "Alt Fire will now also Heavy Attack the Glaive in Glaive+Gun mode".

Considering Glaives Heavy Attack is its Throw, that's PS4/5 sorted as we have Heavy Attack and Alt Fire as the same button. So all you really need to ask for is that on PC, the detonate button be moved to the Alt Fire Key too.

 

1 thing worth mentioning though is something that wasn't quoted, which might explain the Key changes. They're adding an option to "Queue up" attacks. So if you throw the Glaive, you can press/hold a button while the Glaive is still out spinning, and as soon as it returns to you, you'll immediately throw it back out in that direction. This mechanics introduction might make both solutions obsolete.

[Sevek7]

1 hour ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Actually to fix it on PC would only require 1 adjustment, not an overhaul.

Yes, I am asking for 1 small adjustment. I hardly think changing the input button for detonation in one of the two modes classifies as an "overhaul." 

1 hour ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Considering Glaives Heavy Attack is its Throw

Heh, you're lucky to have such an intuitive input system on consoles. On PC this is not the case. The heavy attack button does nothing with glaive equipped (unless in the air, in which case it does a heavy ground slam). 

1 hour ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

1 thing worth mentioning though is something that wasn't quoted, which might explain the Key changes. They're adding an option to "Queue up" attacks. So if you throw the Glaive, you can press/hold a button while the Glaive is still out spinning, and as soon as it returns to you, you'll immediately throw it back out in that direction. This mechanics introduction might make both solutions obsolete.

They've already added this. I think you're looking at quotes from the dev workshop before the new glaive system was implemented. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that queueing attacks making consistent detonate inputs obsolete. 

[(PSN)MYKK678]

2 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Yes, I am asking for 1 small adjustment. I hardly think changing the input button for detonation in one of the two modes classifies as an "overhaul." 

Heh, you're lucky to have such an intuitive input system on consoles. On PC this is not the case. The heavy attack button does nothing with glaive equipped (unless in the air, in which case it does a heavy ground slam). 

They've already added this. I think you're looking at quotes from the dev workshop before the new glaive system was implemented. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that queueing attacks making consistent detonate inputs obsolete. 

Nah, its just that Console is regularly 3-5 updates behind PC, and then we get them in 1 big update. Was testing out the Glaive earlier to make sure we still had the "Glaive 1.0" version. We haven't received the update yet so ours for now works like your old Glaive.

 

I suppose to take both platforms, the queued attacks and the Detonation into account, the best possible solution i could think of to limit it to 2 inputs would be:

Glaive Throw (Melee only and +Gun) - Alt Fire button/Key

Glaive Throw Queue (Melee only and +Gun) - Hold Alt Fire button/Key while Glaive is Thrown

Glaive Detonation (Melee only and +Gun) - Tap Melee while Glaive Thrown

 

If Heavy Attack does nothing on PC then theres really no need to incorporate it at all. The only reason i wouldn't go with the Melee button/Key for the Throw myself is it could be problematic for Console Players. Holding buttons that also have a separate Tap function often fail in Games, not just Warframe. Mix between user error or input glitch. When theres another option there, it seems like an unnecessary problem.