Can we have a serious talk about clone clans and clone alliances?

[(XBOX)CI shadow2397]

20 hours ago, SoulPlease said:

Did you know there is only 3 active alliances in North America right now?

Where did you even get this info

[kgabor]

13 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

Sometimes clan recruiters are paid or receive benefits for those that get into the clan (promotions), the worse the clan is, the better, since the more end up leaving, the more you can recruit.

So the recruiter manages the clan for the clan leader, instead of the clan leader.

That's interesting, but this only seem to benefit the recruiter, unless the Warlord is really willing to throw money for the not so massive perks of being a clan leader in a mostly inactive clan in a game full of content droughts. (a clan they can depose/kick the cl from as soon as the cl goes inactive at the pretense of inactivity-and while sure, the others involved can get into trouble for it as well, it's not a good situation to be in, for anyone involved, besides the recruiter who might make some quick money out of it)

This doesn't seem to be worth it, especially because i'm sure it breaks the ToS, besides other risks.

I mean, people waste money on all kinds of pointless stuff, so it wouldn't surprise me if this was a rare occurrence.

[Vanythe]

I remember being in these clans, they kicked me out due to inactivity and wanted me to pay either 400 platinum or a very unrealistic amount of Oxium for a reinvite. Imagine doing this to a new player? Awful.

Also, Nobody helped me ONCE while I was in the clan, I had more luck getting a group in LFG channel than clan chat.

[Yamazuki]

21 hours ago, SoulPlease said:

These new players end up quitting on day 5 because Warframe is not social and no one helps them. 

Players that don't own everything are given the incentive to join clans for the purpose of unlocking equipment. Clans right from the start are flawed as it is tied to multiple forms of content; equipment, crafting materials, Railjack. Then of course there's the whole you can only join one at a time issue.

It's not as if this issue is exclusive to Warframe, other games have clans/guilds run by one person, or a small group, where despite them having a "large" member list, they're still largely inactive from a social perspective, unless they have an active Discord, but even then, that's not what everyone wants to be forced into using.

[taiiat]

5 hours ago, Cloud said:

"we reserve the right to remove accounts used to circumvent any form of restrictions to the game or the Service"
have a good read : https://www.warframe.com/terms

that's not a defined rule, that's a sweeping legal statement for a Corporate entity to be able to do anything they want without liability. that's what Reserving Rights means....
legalese doesn't tell you what you can or can't do.

if you can't find a definition of whether __ does or does not break the EULA/ToS documents because it isn't defined, you can't make a definition yourself. you can speak as an individual, but you cannot write your own words into the Documents.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 hours ago, Vanythe said:

I remember being in these clans, they kicked me out due to inactivity and wanted me to pay either 400 platinum or a very unrealistic amount of Oxium for a reinvite. Imagine doing this to a new player? Awful.

Also, Nobody helped me ONCE while I was in the clan, I had more luck getting a group in LFG channel than clan chat.

400plat haha wtf? That's hilarious

[Aldain]

Yeah that's why I'm a solo clan guy, inactivity timers to get booted are so not my thing, hence why I just built my own so I have access to research and a Drydock without ever needing to worry about logging in to fill some random person's "activity" quota.

If I wanted to be micromanaged and constantly under threat of being ejected from the building for not doing pointless makework I would have been a bureaucrat.

[AzureTerra]

19 hours ago, Corvid said:

They're always caused by someone being shellfish.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

It always leads to people being crabby

[BahamutKaiser]

Why does your clan have an 8 day participation limit? Is it healthy for people to check in with a specific game every week? Should we police over zealous clan policies. 

Enjoy your liberties and mind your own business, there are plenty of clans of every size that ignore players and accomplish nothing, such hunting large clans because you have some personal issue with them isn't acceptable, at all. 

[Alpha56]

8 day inactive timer is very very authoritarian, and to be fair, i would say trash in that case.

Damn, they can't take some rest, vacation without being kicked even if they invested some time/ressource ?

I would advice not joining your clan, since it could be a bad experience in warframe.

These type of policies are for very competitive clan game with leaderboard, witch Warframe isn't, at all.

[Cloud]

19 hours ago, taiiat said:

that's not a defined rule, that's a sweeping legal statement for a Corporate entity to be able to do anything they want without liability. that's what Reserving Rights means....
legalese doesn't tell you what you can or can't do.

if you can't find a definition of whether __ does or does not break the EULA/ToS documents because it isn't defined, you can't make a definition yourself. you can speak as an individual, but you cannot write your own words into the Documents.

you may call it a "sweeping legal statement" , "rule" or however you prefer, it does not change the substance. If you by any means try to circumvent any form of restriction to the game or service, a judgement will be made, and consequently you could be liable to a punishment (which could even result in a ban). Even if arbitrary you are in no position to contest, since you agreed to the Terms of Use which gives ample discretion to DE, only real owners of your account and everything inside it.

Deal with it.

[taiiat]

3 hours ago, Cloud said:

you may call it a "sweeping legal statement" , "rule" or however you prefer, it does not change the substance. If you by any means try to circumvent any form of restriction to the game or service, a judgement will be made, and consequently you could be liable to a punishment (which could even result in a ban). Even if arbitrary you are in no position to contest, since you agreed to the Terms of Use which gives ample discretion to DE, only real owners of your account and everything inside it.

which is irrelevant to that it's a reservation of rights, that as i said in very exact words, is for a Corporate entity to be able to make decisions at their discretion. "we reserve the right to not like something you do".
it doesn't actually weigh on the topic at hand, for, or against. unsurprisingly, making clear understandable statements limits the amount of legal freedom a Corporate entity has, so.... very very few Companies choose to write out their agreements in a way that makes it clear what people can or cannot do.

 

i don't really expect you to answer the implied question, since it's not your responsibility to enforce it - but you also don't have the responsibility to decide it, either.

[Zoero]

LMAO isnt fallen angelz on the same boat? that's rich

[Amazon_Prime_Access]

Me reading the text: "I want you to think about your first clan, your first good clan. Think about all the help, advise and leadership you got, now do you expect a clan which just adds members for numbers will give the same?"

 

also me in my Ghost clan:  T~T😭

[OneYenShort]

On 2020-11-29 at 4:24 PM, (PSN)thowed said:

Solo dojo with all research (except hema, bought it with a discount).  Wiki for advice.  What's a clan for? Lol

So your wife can ransack your account for inventory so she can decorate said dojo/clan.

[Circle_of_Psi]

Uhm, inst this ageist the rules for naming and shaming? 

[Cloud]

16 hours ago, taiiat said:

which is irrelevant to that it's a reservation of rights, that as i said in very exact words, is for a Corporate entity to be able to make decisions at their discretion. "we reserve the right to not like something you do".
it doesn't actually weigh on the topic at hand, for, or against. unsurprisingly, making clear understandable statements limits the amount of legal freedom a Corporate entity has, so.... very very few Companies choose to write out their agreements in a way that makes it clear what people can or cannot do.

 

i don't really expect you to answer the implied question, since it's not your responsibility to enforce it - but you also don't have the responsibility to decide it, either.

It is totally relevant to the topic instead. Using multiple accounts in order to bypass the all-inclusive maximum limit of 1000 members is in fact "an attempt to circumvent a restriction to the game". This can be easily deduced from the fact that in a game where you can easily change drastically the size of your clan, 1000 members is the ultimate and maximum limit and that there is really no material possibility to create / manage more than one clan per account, moreover, one could assume that the big cap was done to guarantee players a way to have a bigger community without having to resort in multiple clans.

You could say it is not explicitly stated anywhere: "You can't use multiple accounts in order to have more clans" but that is not necessary because it gets absorbed and included in the omni-comprehensive statement I quoted above. These "generic" phrases, in addition to fulfilling the function of preserving the discretion of a corporate, prevent agreements from being too verbose and rigid, causing "elephantiasis" and their use is common practice.

 

To let you understand: If, for example, as the landlord of a property, I forbid any behavior causing damage or impoverishing the value of the furniture inside it, I am not contractually obliged to indicate explicitly every single behavior that could fall into the category and it would be absurd to claim the opposite.

Finally, even if remotely questionable in its arbitrariness, by accepting the clause in the Terms of Use, you agreed to be subject to the condition.

 

Sure, a public statement could be issued tomorrow in which DE clarifies that this is permitted and not in violation of the agreement, but this would be their concession, not your right.

After said that, I'm not deciding neither I do really care, was just curious about it. I'm simply clarifying my point since you challenged and dismissed it with inaccurate or questionable notions.

[taiiat]

6 hours ago, Cloud said:

It is totally relevant to the topic instead. Using multiple accounts in order to bypass the all-inclusive maximum limit of 1000 members is in fact "an attempt to circumvent a restriction to the game". This can be easily deduced from the fact that in a game where you can easily change drastically the size of your clan, 1000 members is the ultimate and maximum limit and that there is really no material possibility to create / manage more than one clan per account, moreover, one could assume that the big cap was done to guarantee players a way to have a bigger community without having to resort in multiple clans.

if there was to be one person running so many Clans, then maybe.

but that's never the actual case in reality.

On 2020-11-29 at 3:02 AM, taiiat said:

it's like a large Company or Military Divisions - each group has their own Leader(s) that have the responsibility to run it as an independent entity, while still reporting back to a higher authority who has the responsibility of organizing those separate Divisions together.

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

On 2020-11-30 at 2:36 PM, Alpha56 said:

8 day inactive timer is very very authoritarian, and to be fair, i would say trash in that case.

Damn, they can't take some rest, vacation without being kicked even if they invested some time/ressource ?

I would advice not joining your clan, since it could be a bad experience in warframe.

These type of policies are for very competitive clan game with leaderboard, witch Warframe isn't, at all.

I'm surprised this is not a first reply. Like jeezz this guy talk about soul and have restriction like in army. It's not like an "game vacation" it's literally no vacation allowed.

And even completetive clan may not have this restriction. Just some discord or anything to be on touch. And be kicked right after any Event has been announced of couse -_-

BTW, this must be surpise for many of you, who joined last 3 (?) years... But we do have leaderboards. And some completetive clans are still here i guess. We just doesn't have any NEW competition. Not mentioning trophies became a candy for everyone long long before.

Spoiler

And what if i say clan can be used as platform for a massive galaxy solar system PvP wars for Dark Sectors! And Clan (more realistically alliance) will have a % for every credit earned in this Sector for a few weeks. And every Tenno can parcipicate during 12 hours contest to earn battle pays (with credits).

With a assault mission from an Unreal Tournament. Better known as a Sabotage with many extra steps. With Dota-style lvling and Specters as a creeps.

Sorry, it was totally unrelated... to anything. But it was cool reason to be the clan.

 

[NecroPed]

Been plenty of people who have left clans like that (or been kicked due to inactivity) who have come to mine and seem to be staying. While I can understand it might be hard to compete with such a large collection of clans recruiting, the best way to get around this is to show what your clan has that they don't, whether it be more lenient rules or a friendlier environment, noob friendly etc. Specifying these types of things tends to help people choose a clan they want to stay with. I try and communicate with most of my clan members, if they don't want to talk much that's fine too, but I try and host a welcoming clan that people want to stay with and can for long times without worrying about being kicked. Well over 100 members strong now and still recruiting. 

In reality I don't see a problem with big alliances. The tiers of clans help make what 1000 people can accomplish comparable to what 10 people can accomplish. Tying these clans together simply gives all the clans more people to play with and talk to and doesn't have that much of an overall impact on the gameplay.

[SoulPlease]

On 2020-11-29 at 4:56 PM, (XBOX)CI shadow2397 said:

Where did you even get this info

Two years of spending time in recruit chat every day. There is only a few ways to recruit for clans, one of which is recruit chat and the others don't really work that well. When I saw clans recruiting I would ask them what alliance they are in and I also talked alliances leaders which were recruiting, to get a idea of what alliances I had to compete with. I know every alliance leader there is in North Ameirca, which has active clans. There is 2 solo alliances who are mainly based in North America, there is also 3 Multi alliances who recruit in North America but are not based there, one of which may be dead. There was 3 alliances which fell apart or just stopped recruiting in the past 2 years, I know this based on not seeing their main clan anymore and noticing that clans which were with them and are active, now have different alliances. This is PC btw.

On 2020-11-30 at 3:57 AM, BahamutKaiser said:

Why does your clan have an 8 day participation limit? Is it healthy for people to check in with a specific game every week? Should we police over zealous clan policies. 

Enjoy your liberties and mind your own business, there are plenty of clans of every size that ignore players and accomplish nothing, such hunting large clans because you have some personal issue with them isn't acceptable, at all. 

Off topic for the first part but all good clans have inactivity kick timers or some way to remove people who no longer play or who do not support the clan.
There are plenty of clans of every size that ignore players is true but no other clans in game have or are able to influence so many people just starting out in Warframe. I am not hunting a large clan, I am giving my opinion on someone able to make 9 large clans and asked for a talk on the subject. You gave your opinion thanks.

 

On 2020-11-30 at 4:36 AM, Alpha56 said:

8 day inactive timer is very very authoritarian, and to be fair, i would say trash in that case.

Damn, they can't take some rest, vacation without being kicked even if they invested some time/ressource ?

I would advice not joining your clan, since it could be a bad experience in warframe.

These type of policies are for very competitive clan game with leaderboard, witch Warframe isn't, at all.

Off topic, never said anything about my clan just the fact that I am doing fine with these clone clans regardless but are more worried about new clans and new players.
 

2 hours ago, -JT-_-R3W1ND said:

I'm surprised this is not a first reply. Like jeezz this guy talk about soul and have restriction like in army. It's not like an "game vacation" it's literally no vacation allowed.

And even completetive clan may not have this restriction. Just some discord or anything to be on touch. And be kicked right after any Event has been announced of couse -_-

BTW, this must be surpise for many of you, who joined last 3 (?) years... But we do have leaderboards. And some completetive clans are still here i guess. We just doesn't have any NEW competition. Not mentioning trophies became a candy for everyone long long before.

  Hide contents

And what if i say clan can be used as platform for a massive galaxy solar system PvP wars for Dark Sectors! And Clan (more realistically alliance) will have a % for every credit earned in this Sector for a few weeks. And every Tenno can parcipicate during 12 hours contest to earn battle pays (with credits).

With a assault mission from an Unreal Tournament. Better known as a Sabotage with many extra steps. With Dota-style lvling and Specters as a creeps.

Sorry, it was totally unrelated... to anything. But it was cool reason to be the clan.

 

Off topic, said nothing about my clan and if we allow vacations or not.


It's really funny how a lot of people talk about clans as just being good for blueprints and alliances as being useless.

[VenTheWeeb]

I don't really know any of these Alliances but how do you know these Alliances aren't really interacting with the newbies they recruit and how is no interaction within the Alliance tied to the newbies leaving?

[SoulPlease]

1 hour ago, (NSW)VenTheWeeb said:

I don't really know any of these Alliances but how do you know these Alliances aren't really interacting with the newbies they recruit and how is no interaction within the Alliance tied to the newbies leaving?

   I was in two different alliances of the clans I am talking about now and I was also in another multi alliance before creating my own. The first two alliances I was in was from the same multi alliance group, the first one I noticed only my clan was talking and some random person. I was told because I wanted to be a Moon clan this was the only place they could fit me and so I requested a larger alliance within the same multi alliance group after stating I would stay small. The next, I noticed someone asked for advise 3 times, I waited 30 minutes, messaged him and asked if he got his answer yet, he said no. The 3rd Multi alliance I was in is the one I believe to be dead, they were inactive much worse than the first two. I cannot say for sure if or how many new players are tied to quitting because of inactivity/unhelpfulness in their first in game community but I can assume that not getting help anywhere for all their new player questions can lead them to quitting.

    I understand what it takes to make one alliance and my one alliance is the most active communities I have ever been in. The work put into just one alliance and the amount of mods, admins, leaders is unbelievable. You can delegate a lot but there is always someone leaving without telling you and always someone you got to watch. I don't believe they do or even could put in enough effort to make good, helpful and active alliances, if a single person is on top of more than one alliance. Even if you tell someone hey, manage this alliance, they may or may not. You could then have them replaced if they are not but then how to you even check if they are or are not? You are a leader of 8 other alliances too, do you hire people to check on the people managing, do you also hire people to check on the people you hire to make sure they are really in game, do you spend time in each alliance, there is only 24 hours in a day 9 clans means you can only spend 2.66 hours in each without sleep each day, is that enough time to make sure your 9th alliance is a good friendly place for new and old players. You also have leaders leaving, recruiters leaving, people being rude in chat unchecked. Now you need to fill 9 clans of 1,000 people to 10-30 days inactive, which goes something like this. The recruiter: hey welcome to the clan, The new player: Do you think you could help me find  cephalon fragments? The recruiter: You can get them here and use these mods, ask in clan chat if you need more help. I am assuming this recruiter at least responds to questions but he doesn't have to, he could just say ask in alliance chat, which is more likely for someone who is told to recruit.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just invite players to come to the discord channel, easiest way to help new players, their comments aren't buried within minutes by a torrent of rubbish in the alliance chat then.

[nslay]

Just now, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Just invite players to come to the discord channel, easiest way to help new players, their comments aren't buried within minutes by a torrent of rubbish in the alliance chat then.

Yeah, that CdG alliance chat is scrolling like crazy man... Like this one time, 2 people responded and that was it, the message was buried under 2 responses.