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Expanding the Helminth system with Augment subsume and infuse


(PSN)OmegaSlayer

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I think that a very interesting way to expand the Helminth system could be the chance to subsume augment mods into Warframes

Some Warframes do really need at least an augment work to perform well at higher levels, some needs even more than one

Anyway, every augment mod needs that you have to sacrifice some utility mod in your build

So I suggest that the player can subsume ANY augment mods to the Helminth system (with a high cost of subsuming, including the augment mod itself and maybe a Forma) and can infuse ONE augment to the Warframe

Obviously that would count like an infused ability, so you can NOT have an infused ability from another Warframe AND the infused augment, but would allow loads of different build and help really much to bring some Warframes up to par

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vor einer Stunde schrieb 0_The_F00l:

I agree with this , but there does need to be some cost to it beyond just resources.

I feel a slight reduction in max warframe capacity would work , or simply burn the augment into the config as a different slot. 

Mod capacity can work as a good balance by itself.

 

Then why would I use it though? If it still costs capacity I might as well just put it in a mod slot because if this system reduces my max capacity I still lose a mod slot and replace it just with a less flexible one with the augment fused in while the regular slot that was freed up stays empty due to lacking capacity. Unless I have so much Forma with the perfect polarities in a frame that I'm sitting on a lot of free capacity in which case all it does is to reduce my starting energy which wouldn't balance anything.

This defeats the entire point and purpose OP is trying to make: that there should be a way for one mandatory augment not to cost capacity and a mod slot on the original frame only at the price of not getting to use a subsumed ability on that frame (I'd suggest config, just as with subsumed abilities). Basically you could subsume "Iron Shrapnel" and infuse it on Rhino config A but then you can't replace his 4 with anything and are "stuck" with his base kit. On config B you could replace his 4 with Breach Surge but then you'd have to slot in the augment for the mod slot and capacity cost. 

I find OP's idea interesting because it lets you utilize the system on frames where you don't want, need or can't replace abilities for various reasons. On some high synergy frames their kit basically breaks if you replace most if not every of their abilities. Gauss or Nidus come to mind for example.

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13 minutes ago, (PSN)Deeceem said:

Then why would I use it though? If it still costs capacity I might as well just put it in a mod slot because if this system reduces my max capacity I still lose a mod slot and replace it just with a less flexible one with the augment fused in while the regular slot that was freed up stays empty due to lacking capacity. Unless I have so much Forma with the perfect polarities in a frame that I'm sitting on a lot of free capacity in which case all it does is to reduce my starting energy which wouldn't balance anything.

the point they're making is that subsuming the augment would take capacity but not take a slot. most frames with enough forma will have left over space, so that wouldn't actually affect anything. you'd just have left bonus energy on spawn.

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vor 22 Minuten schrieb Miser_able:

the point they're making is that subsuming the augment would take capacity but not take a slot. most frames with enough forma will have left over space, so that wouldn't actually affect anything. you'd just have left bonus energy on spawn.

I said the same thing in what you quoted. How would that balance anything? The balance point is that you don't get to use a different ability. Instead you get an augur reach or an augur secrets or best case like a second/third Umbra mod or Stretch because you have an open slot.

Doing this would lock you out of using available ability combinations and it would give frames that don't use abilities of other frames also a way to benefit from the Helminth.

I like it. I'd ship it yesterday (yeah, yeah "thankfully you don't work at DE", I know).

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There needs to be an augment slot that would be unlockable like the exilus mod slot. That doesn't mean augments would not be possible to put into a normal slot, but the "augment mod adapter" would unlock extra slot only for augements.. The adapter should not be cheap, so you chose what Warframe you will invest in.

We currently have dozens of augment mods and most of them are absolutely USELESS. I would put them in if it didn't cost me base Warframe ability to do stuff.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Deeceem said:

Then why would I use it though? If it still costs capacity I might as well just put it in a mod slot because if this system reduces my max capacity I still lose a mod slot and replace it just with a less flexible one with the augment fused in while the regular slot that was freed up stays empty due to lacking capacity. Unless I have so much Forma with the perfect polarities in a frame that I'm sitting on a lot of free capacity in which case all it does is to reduce my starting energy which wouldn't balance anything.

This defeats the entire point and purpose OP is trying to make: that there should be a way for one mandatory augment not to cost capacity and a mod slot on the original frame only at the price of not getting to use a subsumed ability on that frame (I'd suggest config, just as with subsumed abilities). Basically you could subsume "Iron Shrapnel" and infuse it on Rhino config A but then you can't replace his 4 with anything and are "stuck" with his base kit. On config B you could replace his 4 with Breach Surge but then you'd have to slot in the augment for the mod slot and capacity cost. 

I find OP's idea interesting because it lets you utilize the system on frames where you don't want, need or can't replace abilities for various reasons. On some high synergy frames their kit basically breaks if you replace most if not every of their abilities. Gauss or Nidus come to mind for example.

That's just the thing , what you are asking for is more power (for frames where augments by themselves improve gameplay ) for specific abilities.

while the helminth is a replacement mechanism for whole abilities ,

they are different things and should not be considered equal in terms of power and qol improvement.

Currently i run augments on maybe 6 frames which i consider mandatory and they usually have capacity to spare but no slots to optimize it further.

If i get a slot that would give me much more flexibility at a cost which I am comfortable with.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb 0_The_F00l:

That's just the thing , what you are asking for is more power (for frames where augments by themselves improve gameplay ) for specific abilities.

while the helminth is a replacement mechanism for whole abilities ,

they are different things and should not be considered equal in terms of power and qol improvement.

Currently i run augments on maybe 6 frames which i consider mandatory and they usually have capacity to spare but no slots to optimize it further.

If i get a slot that would give me much more flexibility at a cost which I am comfortable with.

Hm, I don't see how having a Stretch and the functionality of one augment (subsumed augment, free slot, no new ability - still four though) outweighs having no Stretch and the functionality of a different ability at the cost of giving another ability up (losing slot to augment, losing an ability for the subsumed ability - still four), sorry. Because that's basically what it comes down to (you can of course replace Stretch with any other mod) and seems like a difficult/interesting choice as it is to me personally. Can't always agree. That's cool.

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I would argue that while some augments are definitely not worth the slot, others are incredibly powerfull and usefull, which justifies taking out the space of "meta mods".

The solution in my opinion was already found by DE: give the opportunity to use in the Exilus Mod slot those augments less performing while keeping out of it the others stronger.

I'm against the idea of infusing augments in Warframes because no matter the resource cost, it would still be trivialized and in the end is just another powerboost without any cost behind it. We don't need more powercreep, if you want a certain augment to work you just need to lower your strenght or duration or range. You can't obliterate an entire room in 1 click? Well, you're not always supposed to. 

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Cloud:

I would argue that while some augments are definitely not worth the slot, others are incredibly powerfull and usefull, which justifies taking out the space of "meta mods".

The solution in my opinion was already found by DE: give the opportunity to use in the Exilus Mod slot those augments less performing while keeping out of it the others stronger.

I'm against the idea of infusing augments in Warframes because no matter the resource cost, it would still be trivialized and in the end is just another powerboost without any cost behind it. We don't need more powercreep, if you want a certain augment to work you just need to lower your strenght or duration or range. You can't obliterate an entire room in 1 click? Well, you're not always supposed to. 

Interesting point. I see it differently in the majority of cases for frames that run subsumed abilities already because it's not another power boost. It's a different one. You don't get both: a new ability and the free augmentation. Only one or the other. However, yes for frames that currently aren't ran with subsumed abilities it would be a boost but only because they didn't get the boost from Helminth so far.

I don't see how one mod makes the difference in clearing a room with one click. Let's say I use Saryn and I use all ranged mods on her except Augur Reach and the toxic leash augment. Now I subsume the augment and can slot in Augur Reach and go from 250% to 280% range. Is that actually better than removing Molt and putting Breach Surge on her and having 250% range? Does one option nuke rooms and the other doesn't? I think one regular mod makes no difference between nuking and not being able to nuke. Augments can but if I want that, like with Mirage's 2: I run the augment and lose a tiny bit of range or strength.

I can just encourage to test out how much powerful it actually would be on your builds to have a slot extra by taking out a utility/survivability mod and replacing it with a strength/range mod on their base kit since you wouldn't have access to a different ability of course.

But yeah, I'm repeating myself at this point for something that wont happen. I think it's just another equivalent option or gives other choices for frames who didn't have access to the utility/power boost from Helminth yet due to their kit or there simply being no interesting abilities to take. I'll stop now though.

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I think this would be a very cool feature. Lots of augments that dont add enough power to justify spending a slot, but arent "utility" enough to be Exilus but would still be fun to have.

People will say its unbalanced, but it's not anymore so than being able to subsume Roar into so many frames.

And personally I would spend the free slot on utility mods, anyway. Usually for me 7 slots are taken up by stuff that feels mandatory, with only two left for stuff that's cool to have but not strong enough to justify like utility mods and augments. 

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10 hours ago, Miser_able said:

the point they're making is that subsuming the augment would take capacity but not take a slot. most frames with enough forma will have left over space, so that wouldn't actually affect anything. you'd just have left bonus energy on spawn.

Nah

I said that the infused augment change the base ability and doesn't cost any drain

And also, I use my Equinox build, which includes both Duality and Energy transfer

I can subsume either Duality OR Energy Transfer via Helminth and use a slot for the other one, having one more slot to use for range or efficiency, for example

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It's the same old proposal, really.   A band-aid slot for augments with Helminth sprinkles on top.  It's foolish to add what's effectively an extra slot when

  •  the game isn't exactly demanding extra power
  •  more importantly, augments are completely all over the place in terms of power and usefulness.

Are they supposed to add utility?  Are they supposed to be clear upgrades? Are they instead supposed to be clear side-grades, offering a different way to use abilities?  Are they supposed to be an auxiliary way to balance frames against one another?  DE needs to decide what augments are supposed to accomplish and then rework them all accordingly.   Only then could it make any sense at all to talk about extra slots.

Unfortunately I'd say that DE adding slots for augments or subsumed augments is a lot more likely than making a comprehensive effort to revise them. 

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3 hours ago, (PSN)OmegaSlayer said:

Nah

I said that the infused augment change the base ability and doesn't cost any drain

And also, I use my Equinox build, which includes both Duality and Energy transfer

I can subsume either Duality OR Energy Transfer via Helminth and use a slot for the other one, having one more slot to use for range or efficiency, for example

by they, I meant 0_the_f00l

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people can try to workaround the cost of Augments all day long, but you won't address the REAL problems unless the augments nobody uses are reworked into stuff that's more useful. then the system can work fully as intended where augments alter your abilities in cool and powerful ways but require building around them, or at least factoring the cost of the augment into your build.

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18 hours ago, (PSN)Deeceem said:

Hm, I don't see how having a Stretch and the functionality of one augment (subsumed augment, free slot, no new ability - still four though) outweighs having no Stretch and the functionality of a different ability at the cost of giving another ability up (losing slot to augment, losing an ability for the subsumed ability - still four), sorry. Because that's basically what it comes down to (you can of course replace Stretch with any other mod) and seems like a difficult/interesting choice as it is to me personally. Can't always agree. That's cool.

That's a poor example to consider, you can give a personal example if you wish and someone else can give a different work which proves both your points , as long as it is limited to that example.

it is unfortunate that the augments and warframe abilities have so much variation that some can be utterly useless and some can be nearly mandatory. 

You cannot make a generic statement that one mod slot can be better or worse than a different ability , it is very much subject to the frame , ability and playstyle in question.

Frames that are already good with default kit will just be gettining powercreeped ,

While frames that already have poor kit and so a dependency on helminth will still lose out as they will be less likely to be used.

I personally feel we already have enough power and need more checks and balances in place.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb 0_The_F00l:

That's a poor example to consider, you can give a personal example if you wish and someone else can give a different work which proves both your points , as long as it is limited to that example.

it is unfortunate that the augments and warframe abilities have so much variation that some can be utterly useless and some can be nearly mandatory. 

You cannot make a generic statement that one mod slot can be better or worse than a different ability , it is very much subject to the frame , ability and playstyle in question.

Frames that are already good with default kit will just be gettining powercreeped ,

While frames that already have poor kit and so a dependency on helminth will still lose out as they will be less likely to be used.

I personally feel we already have enough power and need more checks and balances in place.

Would you mind giving me an example which would prove that it would be too crazy then? On a single frame? I can't think of any instance where it would be unbalanced - which doesn't mean there isn't any of course. I might just not think about it. I named quite a few of examples to show that it wouldn't be a big deal and ultimately nothing more than another option yet everyone who seems to dislike this idea just says it would be unbalanced but didn't name a single frame with a build this would be in fact more cazy on than taking a good Helminth ability/synergy - if available. I'd immediatley concede my opinion of this idea being interesting if anyone comes up with one instance where having an infused augment would be unacceptable.

Your second part I can actually get behind quite a bit. I agree that this system would be a disservice to frames with a poor kit - especially if they also rely on augments as well and helping out frames with a poor kit is the main point of Helminth after all. They'd be stuck having to take an ability to round up their kit while as you pointed out frames with good kits get the edge by getting an augment "for free". That actually swayed my opinion more towards being neutral on this idea (not that it's going to happen anyways, I just like the 'what if'). A very good point of view I didn't consider you shared there. Thank you.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Deeceem said:

Would you mind giving me an example which would prove that it would be too crazy then? On a single frame? I can't think of any instance where it would be unbalanced - which doesn't mean there isn't any of course. I might just not think about it. I named quite a few of examples to show that it wouldn't be a big deal and ultimately nothing more than another option yet everyone who seems to dislike this idea just says it would be unbalanced but didn't name a single frame with a build this would be in fact more cazy on than taking a good Helminth ability/synergy - if available. I'd immediatley concede my opinion of this idea being interesting if anyone comes up with one instance where having an infused augment would be unacceptable.

Hmm , i will have to think on a few of my builds cause freeing up a slot would make them built differently and as mentioned , we are already powerful anything more may not be noticeable on top frames it will just increase the gap between top and not top frames.

But if i have to limit myself to significant observation of power increase.

Equinox is top of my mind , pretty much any of her augments would work wonderfully with an additional mod slot , i currently have 4 configs on her ,

Energy transfer is what I almost always use for maximum versatility , but with a little less range i could run peaceful provocation for some very good tanking potential as well as bonus buffing without losing range.

Explosive ledgermain Mirage i run without any survival mods so i can get a good balance of range ,strength and duration at neutral efficiency.

I use pillage to give me some shield gating , but with a baked in ledgermain i can run umbral mods to give me 200 strength and survivability with no drawbacks.

Same for hall of mirrors.

Octavia is just a pure qol upgrade where i am gonna slot an augment cause there would be no drawback to it and i can have 2 regions near permanently locked down.

Valkyr with war cry or hysteria (both?) augment will let me focus on more duration while maintaining strength and Armor with a full umbral set.

Vauban i have pillage cause shield gating , but with the Tesla nervos baked in i could add adaptation for more effectiveness instead.

Also don't forget simply having an augur mod gives you a percentage of shields for shield gating so an augur mod will simply add more survivability by existing on a frame which benefits that particular attribute.

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vor 21 Stunden schrieb 0_The_F00l:

Hmm , i will have to think on a few of my builds cause freeing up a slot would make them built differently and as mentioned , we are already powerful anything more may not be noticeable on top frames it will just increase the gap between top and not top frames.

But if i have to limit myself to significant observation of power increase.

Equinox is top of my mind , pretty much any of her augments would work wonderfully with an additional mod slot , i currently have 4 configs on her ,

Energy transfer is what I almost always use for maximum versatility , but with a little less range i could run peaceful provocation for some very good tanking potential as well as bonus buffing without losing range.

Explosive ledgermain Mirage i run without any survival mods so i can get a good balance of range ,strength and duration at neutral efficiency.

I use pillage to give me some shield gating , but with a baked in ledgermain i can run umbral mods to give me 200 strength and survivability with no drawbacks.

Same for hall of mirrors.

Octavia is just a pure qol upgrade where i am gonna slot an augment cause there would be no drawback to it and i can have 2 regions near permanently locked down.

Valkyr with war cry or hysteria (both?) augment will let me focus on more duration while maintaining strength and Armor with a full umbral set.

Vauban i have pillage cause shield gating , but with the Tesla nervos baked in i could add adaptation for more effectiveness instead.

Also don't forget simply having an augur mod gives you a percentage of shields for shield gating so an augur mod will simply add more survivability by existing on a frame which benefits that particular attribute.

See, I thought about similar examples - I mentioned Mirage myself earlier in this thread for instance - and maybe that's simply a difference in what someone values but I value a good ability that gives me new synergies as highly or higher than having a vitality or stretch I wouldn't have otherwise in pretty much any case I'd hava to choose. There's nothing wrong with seeing it differently and let's be honest it wouldn't matter anyways since I think we can agree this idea is very unlikely to get implemented. 

As I mentioned earlier though you already made a good point that changed my mind. The entire idea of the system is to help out frames with weaker kits or useless abilities and not to elevate the ones with good and/or high synergy kits. I'm totally on board with that view.

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