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Add a way to reroll a single stat in rivens


Redpaws
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As the title says, add a way to refine rivens you own.

Imagine you get an almost great roll on a riven, but really wish that one stat was different, or the negative ruins it, and there was some way to just reroll that one stat, instead of having to reroll the whole riven. It'd make getting 'god rolls' so much easier, as you'd be able to refine a decent roll into a great one. However, you wouldn't be able to change how many boons it gives, or if it has a curse or not. So you wouldn't be able to add a curse to a riven that has 3 boons and no curse, or add a third boon to a riven with two boons and a curse without rerolling the whole riven the current way.

For the cost... I'd suggest slightly increasing the kuva cost, and adding an additional cost of riven slivers.
For example, it could cost 500 more kuva (so 4000 max, could also just straight up be doubled, so 7000 max) and 2-3 riven slivers per roll. This would give riven slivers a secondary use. Numbers can obviously be tweaked, but I think it'd be very fitting to use riven slivers. As an added restriction, it could be limited to one reroll per day from Palladino (reset with daily).

Pros:
Much easier to get the 'dream riven' you want, as you'd be able to actually work towards it as a long-term goal with the ability to refine rivens, instead of relying on pure RNG
Lower 'god roll' riven prices
Added use for slivers

Cons:
Lower 'god roll' riven prices (though prices for rivens with the right stats and high rolls on those stats will offer a new 'high end' market)
Entitled people very likely to be upset over drop of their god rolled rivens value (as in platinum value, stat-wise it'd remain the same) regardless if they had any intention of selling it to begin with
Potential coding issues

The third con is the biggest one, as I'm not sure if it'd even be possible to code. But assuming it is possible, I thought it's an interesting idea. Just to make riven rolling a little bit more controllable.
Thoughts?

Edit:
Looked up how many possible riven combinations there are, and there's 40 756 possible combinations. Or 0.00245% for a specific combination. It is wholly unreasonable to try to get the exact roll you want without buying it, even if what you want has some flexibility in it. Being able to reroll a single stat would give you a 1 in 20-22 chance to roll a specific buff, and 1 in 15-18 to roll a specific curse, and unless you get lucky with the initial rolling, you're very likely to have to reroll more than one stat. Keep in mind that the stat range is also randomized, which would drive the 'high end riven market' more towards rolling high stats, as the desired stat combo would be far more reasonable to achieve.

Edited by Redpaws
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1 hour ago, Redpaws said:

Cons:
Entitled people very likely to be upset over drop of their god rolled rivens value (as in platinum value, stat-wise it'd remain the same) regardless if they had any intention of selling it to begin with

This is a loaded Con. How about, "Invested players are disrespected with their time and/or money investment and devalues the uniqueness of a given Riven Mod.

Rivens are luxury. Rivens are also a system that really can't be "completed" like everything else in the game. Riven Mods should not just be readily accessible to achieve a good roll. That's kind of the point of where they sit now, and changing that would ruin the system like what has happened to Arcanes and Primed Chamber. Riven Mods remain the only real item to set your gear apart from other players. Leave them be in this aspect.

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2 hours ago, Dauggie said:

why would they? its a good source of spending plat, which means more revenue for company. also it's an "add-on" not a necessity unless you feel it that way. i certainly give no f-cks for rivens

While the upper end of riven prices would go down, the lower end might increase as it'd be much more viable to eventually get a god roll on your own (as you'd only need 2 or 3 desired stats from raw rerolls instead of 4), thus making it more accessible for those that do not wish to spend thousands of platinum. And those that would buy a god roll riven to skip the grind, will still do so. That option isn't removed, even if the value drops somewhat. There'd still be a big time gate. With a daily restriction of one roll, it'd also drive up daily logins for those that wish to perfect that one riven of theirs.

Edit: Realized that the value would shift away from having the right stat combos, and into getting high rolls on the stats. Edited OP with this.

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Riven Mods should not just be readily accessible to achieve a good roll. That's kind of the point of where they sit now, and changing that would ruin the system like what has happened to Arcanes and Primed Chamber.

It'd still take time (with or without a once per day timegate) and effort (still need kuva, and also riven slivers) to get a great riven. It'd just make getting a great roll far more reasonable to those that might not be willing (or able) to spend 1-10k platinum for a single riven.
And the only thing that has been ruined with Primed Chamber is the value, which again ties into the feeling of entitlement people might have. If increasing accessibility sucks for the 1%, but benefits the rest of the playerbase, is it really 'ruining' it, when those that actually wish to use it is now able to, rather than have it be an overpriced digital trophy held by the few? Similarly, rivens rely on insane luck, or just spending an unreasonable amount of platinum. I think people would pride themselves more in a riven they managed to work towards perfection, over one they just chucked a huge chunk of money at.

The argument that it's the only thing that it is the only thing that sets you apart from other players is also kind of weak, when you have hundreds upon hundreds of weapons to pick from, in any combination, coupled with Arcane synergizes, frame choice and builds, helminth abilities, not to mention fashion frame. I think being able to reroll away +zoom or -crit chance to something else hardly makes you any less unique.

Edited by Redpaws
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7 hours ago, Redpaws said:

While the upper end of riven prices would go down, the lower end might increase as it'd be much more viable to eventually get a god roll on your own (as you'd only need 2 or 3 desired stats from raw rerolls instead of 4), thus making it more accessible for those that do not wish to spend thousands of platinum.

 

if you are new to the game let me tell you, when i started the plat value for prime frames was 500+ on day one. this was when relic system was newly introduced. vaulted primes like ember was almost 2000 plat. sounds bullS#&$ but that was actually a thing. with relic system farming became way too easy to the point now frames go for 40-50p and at best 300p for good ones. in short the easier it is to obtain something the less price it will have. plat value for things have reduced so much it's not even worth to grind anything. arcanes have gone to S#&$ as well. rivens are the only little bit of "luxury" (as the above guy mentioned) left. 

in short the game has nothing else to spend high amount of plat into, 

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13 hours ago, Redpaws said:

It'd still take time (with or without a once per day timegate) and effort (still need kuva, and also riven slivers) to get a great riven. It'd just make getting a great roll far more reasonable to those that might not be willing (or able) to spend 1-10k platinum for a single riven.
And the only thing that has been ruined with Primed Chamber is the value, which again ties into the feeling of entitlement people might have. If increasing accessibility sucks for the 1%, but benefits the rest of the playerbase, is it really 'ruining' it, when those that actually wish to use it is now able to, rather than have it be an overpriced digital trophy held by the few? Similarly, rivens rely on insane luck, or just spending an unreasonable amount of platinum. I think people would pride themselves more in a riven they managed to work towards perfection, over one they just chucked a huge chunk of money at.

The argument that it's the only thing that it is the only thing that sets you apart from other players is also kind of weak, when you have hundreds upon hundreds of weapons to pick from, in any combination, coupled with Arcane synergizes, frame choice and builds, helminth abilities, not to mention fashion frame. I think being able to reroll away +zoom or -crit chance to something else hardly makes you any less unique.

I'm glad you brought up the entitlement argument. This is the most common discussion point as it makes anyone who wants valuable items that set players apart from each other seem to have negative intent over the acquisition of the item. This just simply isn't true. I think it's perfectly fine to have items in the game just simply aren't accessible to the average player. Everything in Warframe has become highly accessible. People can farm Ash Prime from low level Fissures with a few Relics, Scarlet Spear allowed you to drown in Arcane Energize, and Open Worlds (not Deimos yet) get an update that trivializes progression for the most part and makes it easy to get all there is to get from there.

Riven Mods are a time investment no matter which avenue you choose to get them with. You either spent time trading for thousands of Platinum, worked in your job to purchase that same Platinum, or you spent time farming Kuva and playing the slot machine. Mechanics that make you feel better about this time investment like static Disposition are supported by me, but not reducing the randomization or allowing it to be player controlled. Player controlled randomization is what killed the Void, and that way of thinking would in fact kill Riven Mods. It would make them uninteresting past a new mandatory mod as everyone would run out to get the same cookie cutter rolls on all their weapons that Content Creators promote.

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13 minutes ago, Voltage said:

slot machine.

This is why Riven Mods are hated by many. It's too close to gambling territory or I even argue it can be considered as gambling, you spent millions of kuva on one riven mod and still don't get a decent stat. Meanwhile, your friend managed to get a great roll on his 10th roll. 

I can say sooner or later people will have enough and the backlash will be so great DE has to intervene. FYI, unveiling chance is getting worse by each new weapon releases.

Edited by DrivaMain
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On 2020-11-30 at 11:27 AM, Voltage said:

Player controlled randomization is what killed the Void.

I'm sorry, but... What?

On 2020-11-30 at 11:38 AM, DrivaMain said:

This is why Riven Mods are hated by many. It's too close to gambling territory or I even argue it can be considered as gambling, you spent millions of kuva on one riven mod and still don't get a decent stat.

Yeah, this is exactly the problem I have with the current system. It's just pulling the slot machine and hoping for the jackpot. There's nothing to work towards. Either you win, or 99% of the time, you lose. And even when you win, it's very unlikely to be the 'jackpot'. Being able to refine a riven with rerolling individual stats would also make it much easier for players that want non-meta stats to get them. For example, rolling for Punch Through instead of crit chance/crit damage/multishot etc etc. Or if people want to use 'cookie cutter rolls', well that's fine too.

And again, if it is tied with a daily roll from Palladino, you'd have to really think about which riven you want to work on refining, and if the current roll on it is worth refining or if you want to reroll it to get . You'd spend a lot of time working on one riven, and you'd be rewarded for it by being able to gradually reforming it to be just what you want (with a ~5% chance each refinement roll to get a specific stat), rather than relying on the ~0.0025% chance of getting it from the slot machine or shelling out potentionally thousands of platinum for a riven that might not even be available. Especially if what you're looking for ISN'T cookie cutter rolls.

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41 minutes ago, Redpaws said:

I'm sorry, but... What?

The selling point for the Fissure system has essentially ruined the way Prime gear is acquired. It takes less than 4 hours to finish a Prime Access. 90 days wait for not even a day of grind is quite lackluster, especially when many recent Prime weapons are side-grades. Applying the same logic to Riven Mods would make them alot less interesting to earn or have. They would be powerful, but have no depth to them. 

I like how they are currently a luxury item and the way they function makes them unique. Not everything in Warframe needs to be readily accessible and that's fine to have atleast one high-end gear enhancement against a steep grind.

Edited by Voltage
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7 hours ago, Voltage said:

They would be powerful, but have no depth to them

I don't see multi layer RNG as "depth". If you want Depth to riven mods you will add some sort of milestone system to riven rolls and unveiling if you want players to be interested and invest more in the system. Rivens have no goal, you just spin the wheel and get something good or useless.

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On 2020-11-30 at 2:08 AM, Redpaws said:

As the title says.

Imagine you get an almost great roll on a riven, but really wish that one stat was different, or the negative ruins it, and there was some way to just reroll that one stat, instead of having to reroll the whole riven. It'd make getting 'god rolls' so much easier, as you'd be able to refine a decent roll into a great one. However, you wouldn't be able to change how many boons it gives, or if it has a curse or not. So you wouldn't be able to add a curse to a riven that has 3 boons and no curse, or add a third boon to a riven with two boons and a curse without rerolling the whole riven the current way.

For the cost... I'd suggest slightly increasing the kuva cost, and adding an additional cost of riven slivers.
For example, it could cost 500 more kuva (so 4000 max) and 2-3 riven slivers per roll. This would give riven slivers a secondary use. Numbers can obviously be tweaked, but I think it'd be very fitting to use riven slivers. If that is still not 'restrictive' enough, it could also be limited to one reroll per day from Palladino (reset with daily).

Pros:
Much easier to get the 'dream riven' you want, be it maximized DPS or some extra utility, or just a different downside, without having to purchase one for an insane price
Lower 'god roll' riven prices
Slightly lowered RNG with riven rerolling
Added use for slivers

Cons:
Lower 'god roll' riven prices (though unrolled rivens might slightly increase in price, or at least in demand)
Entitled people very likely to be upset over drop of their god rolled rivens value (as in platinum value, stat-wise it'd remain the same) regardless if they had any intention of selling it to begin with
Coding issues

The third con is the biggest one, as I'm not sure if it'd even be possible to code. But assuming it is possible, I thought it's an interesting idea. Just to make riven rolling a little bit more controllable.
Thoughts?

Edit:
Looked up how many possible riven combinations there are, and there's 40 756 possible combinations. Or 0.00245% for a specific combination. It is wholly unreasonable to try to get the exact roll you want without buying it, even if what you want has some flexibility in it. Being able to reroll a single stat would give you a 1 in 20-22 chance to roll a specific buff, and 1 in 15-18 to roll a specific curse, and unless you get lucky with the initial rolling, you're very likely to have to reroll more than one stat. Keep in mind that the stat range is also randomized, which would drive the 'high end riven market' more towards rolling high stats, as the desired stat combo would be far more reasonable to achieve.

Rolling a single stat would need to be significantly more expensive. There are 40k+ combinations, rolling a single stat reduces the pool out outcomes by like 99%.
 

A fair price for rolling a single stat would be closer to 30k Kuva, not 4K.

When you roll a good riven you risk losing all the good stats completely. Rolling a single stat has absolutely no risk for you at all. The cost would need to be extreme to make this okay.

And in addition to the extreme cost, you would only ever be able to roll a single line, until you rerolled the entire riven.

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3 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

I don't see multi layer RNG as "depth". If you want Depth to riven mods you will add some sort of milestone system to riven rolls and unveiling if you want players to be interested and invest more in the system. Rivens have no goal, you just spin the wheel and get something good or useless.

Almost every system in this game is shallow (or made shallow later). Riven Mods on the other hand, are like a bottomless pit. Sure, if I could take a time machine back to 2016 and get a system that had insane grind instead of insane RNG, I would. However, I can't. This systems been in the game for 4 years. It's not the best system, but it works fine and it's not anywhere close to mandatory, especially with nerfed enemies and insanely broken status effects and modding imbalance. Leave this luxury mod system alone. They are an endgame of sorts, and making them shallow would trivialize their acquisition. Don't pretend like this playerbase wouldn't throw a fit if you replace the insane RNG with an insane time investment. It's the reasonable change, but that simply won't sell to this catered and conditioned playerbase that whines at any sort of grind for powerful gear.  

2 hours ago, BahamutKaiser said:

Rivens were designed to reinvigorate and close the gap for underused weapons. Any suggestion for Rivens that isn't directly geared toward the intended effect is useless. 

No suggestion will accomplish or even come close to accomplishing this goal. This goal is a statement that just represents disconnection from the game. The only reason weapons have gotten closer to each other now is because of massive enemy nerfs, mod imbalance, and broken status effects.

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2 hours ago, BahamutKaiser said:

Rivens were designed to reinvigorate and close the gap for underused weapons

Initially Rivens launched without any disposition and a Soma Riven (the meta weapon at that time) could roll the same stats as a Mk1-Braton. Go reinvorgate underused weapons that way. This "intention" was added days after Rivens were released.

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1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Don't pretend like this playerbase wouldn't throw a fit if you replace the insane RNG with an insane time investment. It's the reasonable change, but that simply won't sell to this catered and conditioned playerbase that whines at any sort of grind for powerful gear.  

People are already screaming at ridiculous RNG.  Heck, players will scream every time a change happen at this point. Long term investment goal with high milestones is a good middle ground here. 

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19 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

Rolling a single stat would need to be significantly more expensive. There are 40k+ combinations, rolling a single stat reduces the pool out outcomes by like 99%.
 

A fair price for rolling a single stat would be closer to 30k Kuva, not 4K.

It doesn't have to cost an insane amount of kuva (though doubled cost could work), since there'd be other checks in play, like the added cost of riven slivers, which you can only gain from Railjack, Steel Path and Requiem relics, all which I'd consider to be high level content. But the biggest thing would be the once per day roll limit, meaning a big time investment even if you have tons of resources. You'd really have to consider what riven you want to work on.
 

16 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Long term investment goal with high milestones is a good middle ground here. 

This is really well put, and is exactly what I was going for here with the ability to reroll a single stat, and the limit of one reroll per day, giving you a way to get your favorite riven(s) just the way you want them, slowly but surely. It'd still take weeks if you're lucky, though more likely months just to roll one riven just how you want it, but there's still an actual path towards it.

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48 minutes ago, Redpaws said:

It doesn't have to cost an insane amount of kuva (though doubled cost could work), since there'd be other checks in play, like the added cost of riven slivers, which you can only gain from Railjack, Steel Path and Requiem relics, all which I'd consider to be high level content. But the biggest thing would be the once per day roll limit, meaning a big time investment even if you have tons of resources. You'd really have to consider what riven you want to work on.
 

 

You’re not understanding how significantly powerful rolling a single stat would be. 7k Kuva is not enough. Rolling a riven there are 40k+ outcomes. Rolling a single stat there are what, 20-30?

Thats extremely powerful. Slivers are pretty much worthless. If this system ever existed it would need to be extremely expensive, otherwise the bottom would absolutely drop out of the riven market in a week.

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22 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Initially Rivens launched without any disposition and a Soma Riven (the meta weapon at that time) could roll the same stats as a Mk1-Braton. Go reinvorgate underused weapons that way. This "intention" was added days after Rivens were released.

So it is the intention, or is the meaning of sophistry lost on you? 

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On 2020-12-08 at 5:36 AM, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

You’re not understanding how significantly powerful rolling a single stat would be. 7k Kuva is not enough. Rolling a riven there are 40k+ outcomes. Rolling a single stat there are what, 20-30?

Thats extremely powerful. Slivers are pretty much worthless. If this system ever existed it would need to be extremely expensive, otherwise the bottom would absolutely drop out of the riven market in a week.

It is no more powerful than the rivens that already exists, assuming your wallet is deep enough. This change will simply make it viable for an individual to roll a riven just the way they want it on their own as a long term goal, as an alternative to just throwing platinum around for it. But the cost can be adjusted as needed, yes.

Slivers are kind of worthless currently, yes. This would add more value to them.

With a once per day roll limit, each player would be able to reroll a single stat of ONE riven seven times in a week. (or roll one stat on 7 rivens once I guess!)
It'd take weeks (plural) to refine a single riven to get the stats you want, and even then, stat values would still be randomized. As I've already touched on earlier, the high value riven market would shift away from specific rolls, and towards specific rolls with high stat rolls. So yes, while it'd be cheaper to get your 'cookie cutter roll', the market wouldn't crash, it'd simply change focus to getting a 'cookie cutter roll' with high stats.

Most importantly, it'd let users strive and gradually build towards non-cookie cutter rolls that people would normally be unlikely to even bother put up for sale.

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Rivens are the main reason I almost never change weapons. Haven't switched anything since the Catchmoon nerf and decided to stay out of the meta so I've managed to avoid disposition changes and nerfs since then.

If a weapon seem interesting and I have a Riven for it I may do 10 rolls (true gatcha style) to see if something pops up and if it doesn't I keep using my old gear (nothing good has popped up though).

I have Rivens for 130 different weapons and sitting on about 2 mil Kuva but it just doesn't feel worth using much, chance is way too low to find something better than I already have. Problem isn't only the chance to get good rolls though, almost bigger issue is what these rolls can do (worst Riven I have "only" doubles total damage while the best one almost quadrouples it, very little chance to find something better).

If Rivens are meant to do this then I suppose it's fine

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On 2020-12-10 at 1:56 PM, Lutesque said:

I don't have anything interesting or uninteresting to say about this topic beyond how Often it keeps getting mentioned.

If it frequently comes up, then perhaps looking into how it could be implemented could be worthwhile? I think the idea I have is pretty decent, as the time gate would make it so someone millions of kuva wouldn't be able to refine every single riven in the first day. It'd likely take weeks or months per riven. But that's still way better than ONLY having the option to reroll for a 1:40758 chance to get a specific combo. You could reroll a riven 40000 times and still not get it! Lets use a personal example... I want a riven with 8 possible desired combinations . On average, I'd have to reroll a riven ~5095 times to get one of those rolls. Or, over 17.8 million Kuva. And again, due to the nature of RNG, this is merely the average. Sure, I could get incredibly lucky and get that ~0.0196% chance roll far earlier than that. Odds are also good that I could roll twice as many times and still not get it.

There is no reasonable way to work towards getting a riven you want, aside from buying it from someone else that got the jackpot. Which is why I'd like to see that changed, but in a way that'll take time, so you have to make a choice which riven of yours you want to focus on, even if you have plenty of spare resources. Even if you could only reroll a single stat once per WEEK, that'd still be a million times better than what we currently have.

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