Helminth's subsumed powers, especially Ivara

[Desdemona-XI]

So. Helminth's been out for a spell, and Its a fun system overall, Some choices of helminth subsumable powers were... Odd to me given the criteria. "no 4s and no signature abilities" only for Nyx's mind control to be up, Rhino's Roar and Wukong's Defy. Some powers were I'm sure blantantly useful in determining how few people want those powers, and that they might be due for rework or replacement. Loki's Decoy for example.

as I cant locate a direct feedback thread to post this into I'm gonna drop my two cents here, I will touch on a few powers but my primary point of contention is Ivara.

 

Ivara's Subsumed skill is her Quiver. I'm just gonna be blunt here and go "what?!?"  I'd consider a power that involved summoning an exhalted weapon to shoot, with arrows modelled on the frame's body.. Kind of signature. On top of which we only get half of Quiver, Cloak, (yay) and Noisemaker (the worst) arrows. i'd understand dashwire, everyone could use that and the augment would still be fully functional but now we get half of quiver with half of its augment.

Honestly I think her subsumed skill should be navigator,  bending projectiles is something that could have hilarious experimentation with. navigating nezha's chakram for example, or even disabling its interface from other powers so it could only bend weapon projectiles would be better. its a high energy skill, it has a pretty handy augment but I couldnt bring myself to use it over infiltrate. (which i fully agree prowl should not be subsumable) 

the potential interplay actually gets interesting that way, unlike with cloak arrow where the interplay is 'now anyone can squat in a bubble" or noise arrow "now anyone can bait enemies around only when they havent seen anything suspicious which is almost anything" you could pair it up with mesa's ballistic battery and unleash an absolute Killer bullet or rocket or what-have-you. you could use it on harrow to make sure you got that headshot you needed.

And Best of all, you could put it on excalibur, along with the proto skins, and have yourself a DS tribute done to perfection. I havent heard anyone using ivaras quiver in a build yet, so i'm willing to say it's probably one of the least used, and while navigator might not suit everyone, Im sure people will want to play around with it more.

 

Other rapidfire notes: wukongs defy seems more signature than his cloudwalk, and cloudwalk is an amazing mobility skill
rhino's roar i get, charge would be boring and iron skin is super signature.
Zephyr's air burst i kind of get but its still a pretty trash power so pretty unfulfilling
Loki's Decoy, same kind of issue..
Nyx's mind control feels very signature, and also at the same time with the way enemies health-vs-damage works out, Not very useful.. I feel like Psychic bolts might be a more useful subsume even though nyx fans may not like the skill, as it gives a full shield, armor, and certain special defenses strip which is Unique and useful.
Saryn's Molt: its an okay skill all around but i kinda feel like its a bit signature, and toxic lash might be more universally useful.
Nekros's Terrify: I can see why this was the only option, but i cant help but wonder what soul survivor on a Trinity might be like.
The rest im pretty much happy with or admit theres no other option for them.

If this should be merged into a helminth feedback megathread i cant seem to find, please do.

Carry on Tenno, We all lift together

[Loza03]

I feel like Valkyr's ability should have been Ripline, for similar reasons as you cite for Cloudwalker.  I  kind of see why DE didn't let Cloudwalker be subsumable (I get why they'd not want every frame to have access to invulnerability, invisibility, healing and free flight at the same time) but Valkyr's case is quite different.

For one, Valkyr was for the longest time the only Warframe with a voice. Even to this day, it's one of her most defining characteristics, alongside her whole 'berserker fury'. Yet War Cry, which not only is a berserker fury power but also implicitly implies a voice, is not considered a 'signature' ability. Moreover, Ripline is criminally underappreciated on Valkyr herself, because it's most useful with longer ranges, whilst the rest of Valkyr's kit tends to use range as a dump stat, getting little benefit from it. However, as I have recently discovered, ripline is an incredibly fun, versatile and useful power once you get to know it. It's a perfect fit for a helminth ability. It's weak enough to not enable really broken stuff, but it's strong, useful, and it fills an empty niche in Helminth's existing kit. Helminth has movement powers, but they're all buffs to the existing movement rather than expansions to the movement system. Ripline, once you know how to use it, fundamentally alters how you interact with Warframe's environment for the better (namely, that optimal Ripline use requires paying attention to said environment)

 

Alternatively, I'd be down for Ripline becoming a dedicated Helminth power. I personally think it's perfect as a Helminth power choice. It's just so much fun.

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

Quiver isnt a exsalted weapon, quiver is a ability that shoot a projectile( Arrow) With special effects you dont actual use an exsalted bow to fire it. 

[(PSN)MYKK678]

2 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

So. Helminth's been out for a spell, and Its a fun system overall, Some choices of helminth subsumable powers were... Odd to me given the criteria. "no 4s and no signature abilities" only for Nyx's mind control to be up, Rhino's Roar and Wukong's Defy. Some powers were I'm sure blantantly useful in determining how few people want those powers, and that they might be due for rework or replacement. Loki's Decoy for example.

as I cant locate a direct feedback thread to post this into I'm gonna drop my two cents here, I will touch on a few powers but my primary point of contention is Ivara.

 

Ivara's Subsumed skill is her Quiver. I'm just gonna be blunt here and go "what?!?"  I'd consider a power that involved summoning an exhalted weapon to shoot, with arrows modelled on the frame's body.. Kind of signature. On top of which we only get half of Quiver, Cloak, (yay) and Noisemaker (the worst) arrows. i'd understand dashwire, everyone could use that and the augment would still be fully functional but now we get half of quiver with half of its augment.

Honestly I think her subsumed skill should be navigator,  bending projectiles is something that could have hilarious experimentation with. navigating nezha's chakram for example, or even disabling its interface from other powers so it could only bend weapon projectiles would be better. its a high energy skill, it has a pretty handy augment but I couldnt bring myself to use it over infiltrate. (which i fully agree prowl should not be subsumable) 

the potential interplay actually gets interesting that way, unlike with cloak arrow where the interplay is 'now anyone can squat in a bubble" or noise arrow "now anyone can bait enemies around only when they havent seen anything suspicious which is almost anything" you could pair it up with mesa's ballistic battery and unleash an absolute Killer bullet or rocket or what-have-you. you could use it on harrow to make sure you got that headshot you needed.

And Best of all, you could put it on excalibur, along with the proto skins, and have yourself a DS tribute done to perfection. I havent heard anyone using ivaras quiver in a build yet, so i'm willing to say it's probably one of the least used, and while navigator might not suit everyone, Im sure people will want to play around with it more.

 

Other rapidfire notes: wukongs defy seems more signature than his cloudwalk, and cloudwalk is an amazing mobility skill
rhino's roar i get, charge would be boring and iron skin is super signature.
Zephyr's air burst i kind of get but its still a pretty trash power so pretty unfulfilling
Loki's Decoy, same kind of issue..
Nyx's mind control feels very signature, and also at the same time with the way enemies health-vs-damage works out, Not very useful.. I feel like Psychic bolts might be a more useful subsume even though nyx fans may not like the skill, as it gives a full shield, armor, and certain special defenses strip which is Unique and useful.
Saryn's Molt: its an okay skill all around but i kinda feel like its a bit signature, and toxic lash might be more universally useful.
Nekros's Terrify: I can see why this was the only option, but i cant help but wonder what soul survivor on a Trinity might be like.
The rest im pretty much happy with or admit theres no other option for them.

If this should be merged into a helminth feedback megathread i cant seem to find, please do.

Carry on Tenno, We all lift together

For your Primary example, Ivaras Quiver, that at best would count as Half of a signature power. Artemis Bow being the other. The reason it was chosen is because the other 3 are bad choices for differing reasons. Long Duration Stealth/Invisibility powers were automatically and understandably out. Navigator slows down a fast-paced game, and Artemis Bow because its a direct damage attack. Quiver was chosen as it has application uses, such as a temporary Cloak Area or a Distracting Sound. It isn't like any other power so thats why its there.

As for the others:

- Wukongs Twin or Primal Fury would be far above Defy on the Signature Skill list

- Zephyr air burst and loki decoy are again, unlike other powers

- Nyx was 1 of the frames they probably dreaded. All 4 powers could be argued to be counted as signature. It couldn't have been Absorb as that'd be too powerful, so it had to be any of the 1st 3. Most likely Bolts wasn't chosen because of its ridiculously high armour strip effect. So really it was a toss-up over 2.

- Saryn is 1 big Toxic lump, Toxic Lash woul be more signature by far. As would spore and miasma.

 

 

[chaotea]

With stuff like rhinos roar and wukongs defy, they arnt really the signiture ability. But for them and stuff like Nyx, when you take a veiw of "What 1 power is least signiture, yet still worth using" i feel the ballence is mostly there.

Still, i wish they just said 'you can swap any ability for any other ability in the same slot' and then just left us to it. I dont feel its that game breaking. Especially as I barely see any warframe using abilities that arnt thier own.

[TheLexiConArtist]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

For your Primary example, Ivaras Quiver, that at best would count as Half of a signature power. Artemis Bow being the other. The reason it was chosen is because the other 3 are bad choices for differing reasons. Long Duration Stealth/Invisibility powers were automatically and understandably out. Navigator slows down a fast-paced game, and Artemis Bow because its a direct damage attack. Quiver was chosen as it has application uses, such as a temporary Cloak Area or a Distracting Sound. It isn't like any other power so thats why its there.

Prowl is the worst stealth ability in Warframe at doing literally anything except being AFK the longest. If it was the Helminth ability, more people would start to realise what we Ivara mainstays have been enduring for a long, long time.

Honestly, if I could reliably stick the Cloak Arrow to myself as Ivara (much like how Titania can now self-cast her 1 for the buff), Prowl would probably see almost no use whatsoever.

 

Still, Quiver is probably her least clunk-loaded ability. It could use a little bump (compare the sizes and durations of effects between Ivara's Cloak/Sleep arrows and, say, Protea's grenades) but it's not as burdened as the horribly anti-synergetic Navigator and god-awful Ten Different Drawbacks In One of Prowl. Artemis Bow is out by default as an exalted and 'ultimate', of course.

But in the same logic, giving the whole Quiver away via Helminth is giving away the one thing that works more or less properly on Ivara. So you got half of it. A situational ability to let anyone play the Slow Stealth Game, and no Dashwire because that crit-damage augment is a potion too strong for you, travellers. 

 

Several frames have abilities all qualifiable as 'signature' anyway. Something has to give.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

23 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Prowl is the worst stealth ability in Warframe at doing literally anything except being AFK the longest. If it was the Helminth ability, more people would start to realise what we Ivara mainstays have been enduring for a long, long time.

Honestly, if I could reliably stick the Cloak Arrow to myself as Ivara (much like how Titania can now self-cast her 1 for the buff), Prowl would probably see almost no use whatsoever.

 

Still, Quiver is probably her least clunk-loaded ability. It could use a little bump (compare the sizes and durations of effects between Ivara's Cloak/Sleep arrows and, say, Protea's grenades) but it's not as burdened as the horribly anti-synergetic Navigator and god-awful Ten Different Drawbacks In One of Prowl. Artemis Bow is out by default as an exalted and 'ultimate', of course.

But in the same logic, giving the whole Quiver away via Helminth is giving away the one thing that works more or less properly on Ivara. So you got half of it. A situational ability to let anyone play the Slow Stealth Game, and no Dashwire because that crit-damage augment is a potion too strong for you, travellers. 

 

Several frames have abilities all qualifiable as 'signature' anyway. Something has to give.

Bit surprised by the hate for Prowl tbh. I've chatted with people who would rather use Ivaras Prowl than Loki/Ash for all their stealth missions any day of the week.

[Graavarg]

9 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

I've chatted with people who would rather use Ivaras Prowl than Loki/Ash for all their stealth missions any day of the week.

I consider Prowl to be one of the most op abilities in the game. And one of the best. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Bit surprised by the hate for Prowl tbh. I've chatted with people who would rather use Ivaras Prowl than Loki/Ash for all their stealth missions any day of the week.

3 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

I consider Prowl to be one of the most op abilities in the game. And one of the best. 

People on the outside looking in probably think it feels a lot better than it actually does, in practice.

They see things like 0.25 energy per second, but they don't see "three times higher drain while moving, plus additional cost on every instance of damage from a melee strike, plus additional cost on every tick of damage sustained, even if it's a hundred hits of 1 damage, that's a hundred deductions".

They see a channelling ability which doesn't have a brief re-cast vulnerability window, and forget that you have an inevitable timer since your only energy is orbs, while Loki and Ash can literally sustain forever from Energy Siphon alone without worrying about drops or Energise procs. Also, Octavia exists to have the best of both.

They don't think about the obligation to use Hush, Suppress and Silent Battery on most weapons to avoid getting casually gibbed because shooting any unsilenced gun proverbially shoves you out into the street naked. Weapon exilus exists, but am I really farming all those BPs and using forma to fix the polarities on half of them just so Prowl can sort of work like all other stealths without that? What about the weapons you can't even silence, like atmospheric Archguns? It's a mercy that gunblades get around this issue, but that'll be 'fixed' as soon as DE notices.

And then, of course, they don't actually feel how abysmally slow you are. 'But you can roll'! Not upwards, you go rigidly set distances instead of having full control and it's still maybe half the speed of a properly executed parkour sequence. Infiltrate? An absolute insult and a joke. Here, let me amputate your foot just because, then give you a peg-leg so you're at least not tilted onto one shortened stump. Isn't that so much better?

Oh, and you get the worst loot ability in the game attached to it as well, which doesn't even work on most of the enemies you could even feasibly use a slow, delayed, single-target steal to get something worthwhile.

 

The only 'stealth' ability that was ever worse than Prowl is pre-reworked Wukong's controllable flatulence transformation.

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

I am still hoping they revisit it and replace Rhino's Roar. One way or another, this ability shouldn't have been the one for subsume. It should've been Charge.

[(PSN)HynvictSanngRa]

Helminth as a whole is a good system that has been badly implemented. You mention Ivara, but consider Excalibur. Ultimates cannot be given, and everything else in his kit involves using the EW, which is unique to him. Makes no sense. 

On your example, indeed giving Quiver out is more of the same, just doesn't make sense. At most maybe Navigator would have been better, but still I feel like each frame has abilities according to their theme, and it doesn't completely convince me still. 

Perhaps they should have just made a nice set of abilities that are all new and Helminth related, but give effects of already existing abilities, kinda like how Helminth's Speed and Volt's Speed are. 

 

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

 

Made a thread quite ago and it seemed a decent amount of others also agreed with this exact idea, and all we got was the nerfed Helminth Warcry. Valk and Rhino got screwed hard just to give this system something for people to farm. 

Also made it because of the same exact ideas you say, it just makes no sense for everyone to scream like her, or one of her most defining berserker aspects to be given to everyone. And besides this, most people only used her because she is tanky and allowed to get rid of AS mods. I'm just waiting to see usage stats at the end of the year. 

Also not gonna talk for anyone here, but I also gave the same idea of giving Ripline instead, and it seems the two main complaints were 1, that then the Helminth system would be """"useless"""" and someone has to pay the price, and 2, that it would seemingly be used to troll people. Not gonna say it can't be used like that, but I personally don't think it has the same troll potential as universal Banish f. e., along some others. And still, it would require extreme accuracy. But whatever. 

[Graavarg]

11 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

People on the outside looking in probably think it feels a lot better than it actually does, in practice.

They see things like 0.25 energy per second, but they don't see "three times higher drain while moving, plus additional cost on every instance of damage from a melee strike, plus additional cost on every tick of damage sustained, even if it's a hundred hits of 1 damage, that's a hundred deductions".

They see a channelling ability which doesn't have a brief re-cast vulnerability window, and forget that you have an inevitable timer since your only energy is orbs, while Loki and Ash can literally sustain forever from Energy Siphon alone without worrying about drops or Energise procs. Also, Octavia exists to have the best of both.

They don't think about the obligation to use Hush, Suppress and Silent Battery on most weapons to avoid getting casually gibbed because shooting any unsilenced gun proverbially shoves you out into the street naked. Weapon exilus exists, but am I really farming all those BPs and using forma to fix the polarities on half of them just so Prowl can sort of work like all other stealths without that? What about the weapons you can't even silence, like atmospheric Archguns? It's a mercy that gunblades get around this issue, but that'll be 'fixed' as soon as DE notices.

And then, of course, they don't actually feel how abysmally slow you are. 'But you can roll'! Not upwards, you go rigidly set distances instead of having full control and it's still maybe half the speed of a properly executed parkour sequence. Infiltrate? An absolute insult and a joke. Here, let me amputate your foot just because, then give you a peg-leg so you're at least not tilted onto one shortened stump. Isn't that so much better?

Oh, and you get the worst loot ability in the game attached to it as well, which doesn't even work on most of the enemies you could even feasibly use a slow, delayed, single-target steal to get something worthwhile.

 

The only 'stealth' ability that was ever worse than Prowl is pre-reworked Wukong's controllable flatulence transformation.

Oooh, "people on the outside...", really 🙂.

I have no problem with the energy management on Ivara, not even on a "perma-invis" Ivara. There are a few things you need to avoid (like those bloody Grineer traps), but if you start getting low it is not all that hard finding a nook or cranny to "pizza" up again. In any normal solo mission Ivara's killrate is such that the energy stays close to full all the time due to energy drops (and Arcane Energize). You can also add energy continuously by "sharpshooting" enemies (and at the same time find out that some snipers and sniper builds are actually a lot better than you and everyone else thought). And you can use the new and glorious Preparation to start a mission with full energy. That is 850 on most of my Ivara builds, which (just to name an understandable metric) translates into around 15 minutes of continuous invisible movement (with a base drain of 0.25), that is without getting a single drop of additional energy from anywhere. In a lot of missions there is also no need to stay invisible all the time, allowing you to regain energy while moving around faster.

Modding for silenced weapons is part of the fun, going "specialized invis". As is using bows. And being wimpy, since your modspace is used mainly for buffing "sneakiness". I totally fail to see what would be so good about "playing just as with all other warfames, but invisible". Op sure, but fun?

That you are slower is true, but then an invis Ivara never fitted in the normal rush-speed of the game anyway. If that's what you want, Loki, Ash or Octavia is a better option. Being invisible while speed-running through a mission is just using invisibility as an added layer of protection, nothing else. Sneaking around invisible with Ivara is at the opposite side of how you play, doing it slowly, methodically and very "sneakily" instead of rushing. And if in a sudden hurry you can always void dash, including up or down, without breaking Prowl.

I do wish the looting function had an on-off setting though, since in some cases looting enemies alerts them. Not a big deal, but you can't use finishers and scanning alerted enemies gives you a lot less Simaris standing.

[BahamutKaiser]

Part of why certain abilities were probably chosen is because of which interactions they wanted to, or had to avoid. 

[Desdemona-XI]

20 hours ago, (PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

Quiver isnt a exsalted weapon, quiver is a ability that shoot a projectile( Arrow) With special effects you dont actual use an exsalted bow to fire it. 

I never said it was an exhalted weapon i said it USES it. Watch the animation, when quiver fires it fires out of the artemis bow, which then dissapears, much like how many of excaliburs powers involve him using his exhalted blade as a prop, its a common thing with many warframes actually, garuda's abilities involve her claws in the animations etc. 

[Desdemona-XI]

19 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

People on the outside looking in probably think it feels a lot better than it actually does, in practice.

They see things like 0.25 energy per second, but they don't see "three times higher drain while moving, plus additional cost on every instance of damage from a melee strike, plus additional cost on every tick of damage sustained, even if it's a hundred hits of 1 damage, that's a hundred deductions".

They see a channelling ability which doesn't have a brief re-cast vulnerability window, and forget that you have an inevitable timer since your only energy is orbs, while Loki and Ash can literally sustain forever from Energy Siphon alone without worrying about drops or Energise procs. Also, Octavia exists to have the best of both.

They don't think about the obligation to use Hush, Suppress and Silent Battery on most weapons to avoid getting casually gibbed because shooting any unsilenced gun proverbially shoves you out into the street naked. Weapon exilus exists, but am I really farming all those BPs and using forma to fix the polarities on half of them just so Prowl can sort of work like all other stealths without that? What about the weapons you can't even silence, like atmospheric Archguns? It's a mercy that gunblades get around this issue, but that'll be 'fixed' as soon as DE notices.

And then, of course, they don't actually feel how abysmally slow you are. 'But you can roll'! Not upwards, you go rigidly set distances instead of having full control and it's still maybe half the speed of a properly executed parkour sequence. Infiltrate? An absolute insult and a joke. Here, let me amputate your foot just because, then give you a peg-leg so you're at least not tilted onto one shortened stump. Isn't that so much better?

Oh, and you get the worst loot ability in the game attached to it as well, which doesn't even work on most of the enemies you could even feasibly use a slow, delayed, single-target steal to get something worthwhile.

 

The only 'stealth' ability that was ever worse than Prowl is pre-reworked Wukong's controllable flatulence transformation.

I'll be honest, I mainly run ivara, and to me prowl is the best stealth hands-down bar none,
-Sure you have to silence yourself, (ofcourse cloak arrow does provide silence but that's a seperate power) but you have to for Ash and Loki too. unless you use Loki's augment, and perhaps ash's
-Ash's is over so fast its imo not that useful and cant be recast, and going invisible when enemies have already seen you isnt as useful to me. (unless they changed that since i threw wanna-be-shinobi on the back shelf of primes i dont use) 
-loki's is okay but, mostly the rest of loki is so goddamn dull i'd rather not bother.
-Ivara's slows you but its never really bothered me, enemies who havent detected you dont move that fast either You can jump in prowl as i recall, and i've also Run prowl for entire missions without breaking it because of prowl pickpocketing which I honestly  think you must be building poorly with because for me it works on most enemies flawlessly, sure it doesnt affect bosses and certain 'big money' droppers like thumpers, but a lot of them are also immune to looting khora or hydroids, and some immune to petrification, so that counts out atlas and leaves just nekros as options with a much lower chance of extra loot. I often solo farm toroids with ivara when i cant find a decent group because its easier. and typically gets me better results than slogging nekros around.
-Infiltrate is for me a bit of a must-have augment, just because bypassing laser traps is fun and a little extra speed too, But so is mesa's waltz and assimilate. I will point out that the slow effect of prowl is negated when on ziplines and dashwires, but the speed buff of Infiltrate isnt, allowing you to move pretty quickly and get a dashwire momentum launch if you do it right, but that is a little unconrollable as you say.
-Gunblades as i recall have long since been fixxed and generate sound, like a year ago havent tried them in prowl because i cant imagine why id want to do that instead of glaives on ivara.

[Desdemona-XI]

8 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Oooh, "people on the outside...", really 🙂.

I have no problem with the energy management on Ivara, not even on a "perma-invis" Ivara. There are a few things you need to avoid (like those bloody Grineer traps), but if you start getting low it is not all that hard finding a nook or cranny to "pizza" up again. In any normal solo mission Ivara's killrate is such that the energy stays close to full all the time due to energy drops (and Arcane Energize). You can also add energy continuously by "sharpshooting" enemies (and at the same time find out that some snipers and sniper builds are actually a lot better than you and everyone else thought). And you can use the new and glorious Preparation to start a mission with full energy. That is 850 on most of my Ivara builds, which (just to name an understandable metric) translates into around 15 minutes of continuous invisible movement (with a base drain of 0.25), that is without getting a single drop of additional energy from anywhere. In a lot of missions there is also no need to stay invisible all the time, allowing you to regain energy while moving around faster.

Modding for silenced weapons is part of the fun, going "specialized invis". As is using bows. And being wimpy, since your modspace is used mainly for buffing "sneakiness". I totally fail to see what would be so good about "playing just as with all other warfames, but invisible". Op sure, but fun?

That you are slower is true, but then an invis Ivara never fitted in the normal rush-speed of the game anyway. If that's what you want, Loki, Ash or Octavia is a better option. Being invisible while speed-running through a mission is just using invisibility as an added layer of protection, nothing else. Sneaking around invisible with Ivara is at the opposite side of how you play, doing it slowly, methodically and very "sneakily" instead of rushing. And if in a sudden hurry you can always void dash, including up or down, without breaking Prowl.

I do wish the looting function had an on-off setting though, since in some cases looting enemies alerts them. Not a big deal, but you can't use finishers and scanning alerted enemies gives you a lot less Simaris standing.

Agreed  well said to all of the above, But I do have one thing to add, looting enemies does not ever alert them. Never had that happen, what Does alert them is when you bump into them, which is sensible since some invisible thing just walked into them, people notice, you dont have to get that close unless you have low range i suppose. however, Sleep arrow can fix that, with the way things are now, sleep arrow restores finisher openings and finishers on sleeping enemies automatically carry on the stealth multiplier, in older versions you had to wait for em to wake up but now it seems to work as soon as they're asleep, I use it often when someone turns at the wrong time and spots a corpse i just made out of their buddy.

 

[Desdemona-XI]

23 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I feel like Valkyr's ability should have been Ripline, for similar reasons as you cite for Cloudwalker.  I  kind of see why DE didn't let Cloudwalker be subsumable (I get why they'd not want every frame to have access to invulnerability, invisibility, healing and free flight at the same time) but Valkyr's case is quite different.

For one, Valkyr was for the longest time the only Warframe with a voice. 

Alternatively, I'd be down for Ripline becoming a dedicated Helminth power. I personally think it's perfect as a Helminth power choice. It's just so much fun.

Honestly I dont disagree, Valkyr's voice in her warcry being everywhere now is jarring, but its also on her paralysis which I actually would have preferred. warcry is just a bit exploitable. Paralysis factors damage off of shields, but valkyr has very low shields, Imagine that on hildryn or Harrow? frames that can build a huge pile of shields and overshields. Plus being a finisher opener like Dessicate which was helminthed.

16 hours ago, (PSN)HynvictSanngRa said:

Also not gonna talk for anyone here, but I also gave the same idea of giving Ripline instead, and it seems the two main complaints were 1, that then the Helminth system would be """"useless"""" and someone has to pay the price, and 2, that it would seemingly be used to troll people. Not gonna say it can't be used like that, but I personally don't think it has the same troll potential as universal Banish f. e., along some others. And still, it would require extreme accuracy. But whatever. 

also the problem with valkyr's 1 is that its also regarded as one of the worst powers in game by most people i speak to because of how the range on it otherwise becomes the dump stat. its damage isnt great and while it is fun for mobility. theres a Larger concept that has people feeling a kind of way. The parazon. the parazon in the jackal fight is literally used as ripline which has led people to believe ripline should be made a parazon ability available to everyone, and valkyr should get something new. which I honestly agree with. I feel like valkyr needs something a little more.. More..

[Loza03]

56 minutes ago, Desdemona-XI said:

valkyr should get something new. which I honestly agree with. I feel like valkyr needs something a little more.. More..

I get why they'd want to give her an ability to let her get in melee range but A: bullet jump and B: it's hard to do so whilst still keeping her dual themes of Berserker and Cats, and not treading on anyone elses toes.

Berserkers made wild headfirst charges into battle, but several frames have a 'dash forward' power (and it's based on range anyway). Cats can jump good, run fast and climb, but 2/3 are innate characteristics to all frames, and the remainder is Gauss and Volt's thing.

 

I've toyed with the idea of maybe tying her into Zanuka? Zanuka has that nullification burst power, so maybe you could give Valkyr something similar, the idea being that Zanuka got it from Valkyr canonically? Something which cancels active abilities, buffs or whatnot directly ahead of her. Theme it like intimidation - she basically yells at a group of enemies and causes them to flinch, briefly stunning them and knocking them out of any special powers for short while. Teleports, damage reduction fields, turns off the shields or prevents them from spawning sub-enemies. Basically a form of indirect protection.

[Desdemona-XI]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

I get why they'd want to give her an ability to let her get in melee range but A: bullet jump and B: it's hard to do so whilst still keeping her dual themes of Berserker and Cats, and not treading on anyone elses toes.

Berserkers made wild headfirst charges into battle, but several frames have a 'dash forward' power (and it's based on range anyway). Cats can jump good, run fast and climb, but 2/3 are innate characteristics to all frames, and the remainder is Gauss and Volt's thing.

 

I've toyed with the idea of maybe tying her into Zanuka? Zanuka has that nullification burst power, so maybe you could give Valkyr something similar, the idea being that Zanuka got it from Valkyr canonically? Something which cancels active abilities, buffs or whatnot directly ahead of her. Theme it like intimidation - she basically yells at a group of enemies and causes them to flinch, briefly stunning them and knocking them out of any special powers for short while. Teleports, damage reduction fields, turns off the shields or prevents them from spawning sub-enemies. Basically a form of indirect protection.

thats the thing, when valkyr was made, there was no bullet jump and gap closing meant running over or slide spinning. now we have bullet jump and hysterical assault and frankly most of what ripline did has become redundant as a result over the years.

I actually would approve of a such a power because as it stands we dont have any means of power-suppressing enemies, which is frustrating doubly because all it takes to power supress us is a few magnetic procs and we're outta gas. and then they added nullifiers, and combas, and all other manner of supressing us, but we cannot do the same.

I had a forum post a while back about moving Venari to Valkyr giving the cat frame a cat, and with valkyrs claws having innate lifesteal that'd pair well with lifesteal link mods. warcry giving venari more armor and attack, and maybe paralysis giving venari a free finisher against one of the targets. instead venari is left on khora feeling tacked on and out of place despite the 'lore' saying how closely linked they are, venari synergizes terribly with khoras powers most of the time. But the forums got cleansed of old posts. I could repost it, with some newer concepts if you were curious?

[(PSN)HynvictSanngRa]

1 hour ago, Desdemona-XI said:

also the problem with valkyr's 1 is that its also regarded as one of the worst powers in game (...) The parazon. the parazon in the jackal fight is literally used as ripline which has led people to believe ripline should (...)

It may not be a 90% DR ability, nor a buff, nor a nuke, but it's useful as a mobility ability (probably why everyone wants it for free). Helminth currently only offers one mobility ability that's not a speed buff (Reave, and still...), so I don't think getting one extra DPS ability out and changing it for Ripline will make the system worse, in fact it would give it more diversity. Also, even if it's not good, it's still the one most logical to give out given it's "less signature", full stop. Also, airburst is there instead of turbulece, shock instead of electric shield, reave instead of mesmer, ice wave instead of snow globe... get what I'm saying?

And no, I don't think it should be made universal and give Valkyr some cat-themed thing. We already have a pretty diverse movement system, it would be just overkill. And while it makes sense in that single particular scene, I don't think a dagger (that can also hack for some reason) is also valid as a grappling hook. Maybe as a map feature where you could use it as a context action to jump over an abyss or travel along some dynamic map thing, but not as literal Ripline. And besides all this, if it was to be implemented, I don't think console controllers have any more buttons left.

Plus, following DE's logic, it seems Ripline is either equally or more signature to Valkyr than Warcry, so giving it to everyone for free would be weird, wouldn't it?

 

29 minutes ago, Desdemona-XI said:

we dont have any means of power-suppressing enemies

Banshee's Silence already does this. And is subsumable.

 

35 minutes ago, Desdemona-XI said:

 had a forum post a while back about moving Venari to Valkyr giving the cat frame a cat

It makes sense for Khora because she's a beast tamer of sorts (honestly her theme is so wrecked I just don't know, IPS frame, web-weaver, beast tamer, metal bender...). Valkyr is an agile berserker. Why would her have a cat? And where was Venari while she was in the laboratory, talking to some random Corpus researcher?

I don't know why this community is so fixated on her agile -> feline -> cat (?) thing, but her title is literally the berserker, her bundle is named berserker, has more allusions to norse mythology than to "cats", and has an auxiliary cosmetic that are literally chains berserkers usually have, along the gaunlets. Hell, the tail Gersemi has is literally a demon's one, rather than a feline one. The only agile thing about her is her passive, and the only "cat" things are the shoe claws (that Nidus Phryke also has, mind you, and he clearly has nothing to do with cats. Perhaps it's just to cause deeper wounds with kicks, instead of trying to resemble a cat?), and the no-recovery one. Bastet used to be Sekhmet, a warrior goddess that almost kills all of humanity in her bloodlust and rage, but we better focus on that she was representated with a feline head.

Feels like is she turned into a bootleg Nidalee most of the community would be happy, but that's not what her theme is about.

Also sorry because I'm deviating, but I just had to say it.

[TheLexiConArtist]

13 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Oooh, "people on the outside...", really 🙂.

I have no problem with the energy management on Ivara, not even on a "perma-invis" Ivara. There are a few things you need to avoid (like those bloody Grineer traps), but if you start getting low it is not all that hard finding a nook or cranny to "pizza" up again. In any normal solo mission Ivara's killrate is such that the energy stays close to full all the time due to energy drops (and Arcane Energize). You can also add energy continuously by "sharpshooting" enemies (and at the same time find out that some snipers and sniper builds are actually a lot better than you and everyone else thought). And you can use the new and glorious Preparation to start a mission with full energy. That is 850 on most of my Ivara builds, which (just to name an understandable metric) translates into around 15 minutes of continuous invisible movement (with a base drain of 0.25), that is without getting a single drop of additional energy from anywhere. In a lot of missions there is also no need to stay invisible all the time, allowing you to regain energy while moving around faster.

Modding for silenced weapons is part of the fun, going "specialized invis". As is using bows. And being wimpy, since your modspace is used mainly for buffing "sneakiness". I totally fail to see what would be so good about "playing just as with all other warfames, but invisible". Op sure, but fun?

That you are slower is true, but then an invis Ivara never fitted in the normal rush-speed of the game anyway. If that's what you want, Loki, Ash or Octavia is a better option. Being invisible while speed-running through a mission is just using invisibility as an added layer of protection, nothing else. Sneaking around invisible with Ivara is at the opposite side of how you play, doing it slowly, methodically and very "sneakily" instead of rushing. And if in a sudden hurry you can always void dash, including up or down, without breaking Prowl.

I was already typing up that response to the other person before you posted, and just added the quote in from you instead of an @ mention. 'People on the outside' may not necessarily apply to you.

The moment you stated using energy restores, you lost that argument. Nothing is a problem energy-wise if you're leaning on the pizza crutches. You also seem to want to divert all these other mods - Flow and Preparation, Sharpshooter plus obligatory Hush - just to do what the others can with the standard power-stats and Energy Siphon, without other added limitations.

Can it 'work'? Maybe, more or less. That's pretty much the name of the game for Ivara, though. Forcing the build to work in spite of the jank. It doesn't change the fact it is objectively worse. Infinite time on pure mods beats 15 minutes + drop reliance. Free movement > restricted movement (especially when restricted movement = more time moving A to B = more drain).

You can go around at your desired pace with any stealth. Only Ivara's forces you to slow. If you go sneaky-slow you can get through a mission stealthily with no invisibility power, so Prowl's restrictions are purely a deficit.

Nothing is better except the ability to stealth longer with no input. I'll concede one point of incidental superiority - Prowl allows you to man Railjack stations without worrying about boarding parties, since that's pretty equivalent to just being AFK in terms of sitting in place without Warframe control inputs.

 

4 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

I'll be honest, I mainly run ivara, and to me prowl is the best stealth hands-down bar none,
-Sure you have to silence yourself, (ofcourse cloak arrow does provide silence but that's a seperate power) but you have to for Ash and Loki too. unless you use Loki's augment, and perhaps ash's
-Ash's is over so fast its imo not that useful and cant be recast, and going invisible when enemies have already seen you isnt as useful to me. (unless they changed that since i threw wanna-be-shinobi on the back shelf of primes i dont use) 
-loki's is okay but, mostly the rest of loki is so goddamn dull i'd rather not bother.
-Ivara's slows you but its never really bothered me, enemies who havent detected you dont move that fast either You can jump in prowl as i recall, and i've also Run prowl for entire missions without breaking it because of prowl pickpocketing which I honestly  think you must be building poorly with because for me it works on most enemies flawlessly, sure it doesnt affect bosses and certain 'big money' droppers like thumpers, but a lot of them are also immune to looting khora or hydroids, and some immune to petrification, so that counts out atlas and leaves just nekros as options with a much lower chance of extra loot. I often solo farm toroids with ivara when i cant find a decent group because its easier. and typically gets me better results than slogging nekros around.
-Infiltrate is for me a bit of a must-have augment, just because bypassing laser traps is fun and a little extra speed too, But so is mesa's waltz and assimilate. I will point out that the slow effect of prowl is negated when on ziplines and dashwires, but the speed buff of Infiltrate isnt, allowing you to move pretty quickly and get a dashwire momentum launch if you do it right, but that is a little unconrollable as you say.
-Gunblades as i recall have long since been fixxed and generate sound, like a year ago havent tried them in prowl because i cant imagine why id want to do that instead of glaives on ivara.

- You don't have to silence Loki, Octavia, or Ash to remain invisible. Only a select few enemies/mechanics will hard-target by the player producing sound, while everything will murder Ivara because she goes outright visible when shooting loud.

- Despite Ash having the worst energy/duration, he can still build up a sustainable stealth with only Energy Siphon to supply it. Window of vulnerability exists, but that's compensated with a slot for Rolling Guard if you're happy 'compensating' Prowl's inevitable cost by using a slot for Primed Flow for capacity.

- Loki is not equipped to everyone's tastes, but he's the baseline sneaky boi for comparison's sake.

- You can jump in prowl, but that's nothing in the grand scheme of Warframe mobility. Sprint, slide, bullet jump are all forbidden leaving you with (slowed) walking and jump-rolling for mobility options. Pickpocket works on 'everyday' enemies, but it's delayed (Duration based) and single target. By the time you've stolen from a handful of miscellaneous enemies, you could probably have killed two packs for the same result. In its limitations, pickpocket is valuable for 'rare' and specific units you want to pull extra loot from - but other than Sentients, they're usually tagged as minibosses who are immune to pickpocketing anyway. Desecrate works on the most enemies, yes, but even things which can't be 'caught' by Pilfer Dome/Tentacles can still yield double drops if they die in the area affected (see Hydroid farming double-drops in Plague Star). Pickpocket is the most limited mechanically, and then they immunise away most of its remaining viable uses. Also it has purely anti-synergy with Power Strength. Fail chance for lower strength than 100%, no benefit for higher strength than 100%. A Drawback for the sheer sake of it.

- Infiltrate is pointless. By the time you got normal Ivara you knew the way around traps as effectively as going through them at prowl-limited speeds. A speed buff to glacially slowed walking is a spit in the player's face. Walking on wires is lipservice to a benefit when DE could instead just... remove all the needless parkour restrictions and let Ivara move properly everywhere without having to bleed energy out spamming picky-hit-detection Dashwires to get around.

- As mentioned in the first point, only a few enemies target sound specifically and while Gunblades do produce noise, this is the only noise that doesn't make Ivara's prowl break invisibility. _{Gunblade shot damage also doesn't trigger the on-melee-hit energy tax in Prowl, making GBs the best possible option for a reasonably usable Prowling build.}

 

Again, though - all of this hasn't identified anything that justifies Prowl being so much worse than the three other main stealth ability options available. Seriously, if there were more reliable hack-panels to keep the buff running, the Parazon mod Untraceable would be a better stealth pick than Prowl.

[Graavarg]

11 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I was already typing up that response to the other person before you posted, and just added the quote in from you instead of an @ mention. 'People on the outside' may not necessarily apply to you.

...

The moment you stated using energy restores, you lost that argument. Nothing is a problem energy-wise if you're leaning on the pizza crutches. You also seem to want to divert all these other mods - Flow and Preparation, Sharpshooter plus obligatory Hush - just to do what the others can with the standard power-stats and Energy Siphon, without other added limitations.

Can it 'work'? Maybe, more or less. That's pretty much the name of the game for Ivara, though. 

...

You don't have to silence Loki, Octavia, or Ash to remain invisible. Only a select few enemies/mechanics will hard-target by the player producing sound, while everything will murder Ivara because she goes outright visible when shooting loud.

Sorry if I came across as snarky about the inside/outside, to me it just looked like a "I know everything and you know nothing"-antiargument.

I think part of the discussion centers on how it feels to play Ivara, which is a very personal (and hard to handle with factual arguments). I have loved playing Ivara since I got my hands on her, and most of the things you consider as "bad" are actually "interesting" to me, drawbacks you need to get around using all the stuff you have in the game: mods, weapons, arcanes, companions and restores. But when you do, and you find a playstyle that works for your build and how you want to play, then you also unlock the awesome potential Ivara has. Staying "perma-invis" during a mission is just one small part of that.

---

I also think that the root of the problem is not actually Ivara, but how the game handles invisibility overall. It is currently a bit too op. I mean, imagine if DE reworked Octavia and removed the option to tea-bag invisibility. The outcry would be insane, "Octavia would be destroyed". A bit ridiculous considering Octavia not being a warframe centered on playing invis in any way, shape or form, but it shows how powerful invisibility is. Especially against higher level enemies, since they are just as clueless as their lesser compatriots.

The best example of this is non-silenced weapons. While some enemies will rush to where you are shooting from (and some will actually shoot back) the current system is silly. If they can hear where you are shooting from they should ALL shoot at that spot, and not only "shoot", they should "spray and pray" like crazy, since an invisible Tenno killing them is a big threat (even bigger than visible ones). The same goes for melee enemies, they should charge to the spot and act like crazed windmills, trying to hit you. And all enemies having AoE weapons should just pump out damage and procs at an assumed invis enemy. All this is even more true for weapons leaving visible traces (like rockets), pointing right back at you. And for invis melee, since they CAN see where their friends are being massacred. But instead they basically do nothing (as soon as you stop killing them). My gut feeling is that DE has improved this a bit every once in a while (like with infested Chargers), but enemies are still ridiculously clueless concerning invisibility.

I also think it is very surprising that the factions haven't created anything countering invisibility. Throwing a pot of paint at an invisible enemy is not exactly rocket science, now is it. A technically more advanced anti-invis tool would be a deployable/fixed "Tenno-scanner", after all they already have that technology (like lasers and electric traps).

My point is that Ivara's "bad" isn't really Ivara being "too weak/challenging", but that other forms of invis simply are "too good/too op". It is only when comparing Ivara against the rest that this "problem" arises, when actually playing Ivara she is pretty g'damn good (according to me 🙂). So in my opinion the "fix" is not increasing the power-creep further by making Ivara even better, but instead fix how the enemies handle invisibility. That would, incidentally, also make Ivara's Infiltrate-augment more meaningful (as it should be). It might not help with the pots of paint enemies would try to tag her with, but she would be able to ignore any deployable laser scanners.

DE consistently states that they would like to buff playing actively, and inhibit passive afk-style play. Well, invis is partly used as one of the most "passivating" abilities in the game, simply because not one enemy faction (not even the sentients) have a single in-fight tool against it. That should be fixed.

[Teliko_Freedman]

Prowl is OP.

You can melee nonstop, and no enemies will react.

You can get stealth kills, which is wonderful for leveling up stuff.

Sure walking is slow, but we learned how to roll.

Loud weapons Breaking cloak? You have Hush/Suppress/Silent battery for weapon exilus slots. Perfect for stealth kills and Ranking up even faster.

Increased Energy usage from fighting and moving? Dying enemies drop so much energy that's not even an issue. Ivara Prime with a max rank Primed Flow is around 849 energy too.

 

So yeah, Prowl OP. Would be one of the most OP subsume abilities.

[TheLexiConArtist]

10 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Sorry if I came across as snarky about the inside/outside, to me it just looked like a "I know everything and you know nothing"-antiargument.

I think part of the discussion centers on how it feels to play Ivara, which is a very personal (and hard to handle with factual arguments). I have loved playing Ivara since I got my hands on her, and most of the things you consider as "bad" are actually "interesting" to me, drawbacks you need to get around using all the stuff you have in the game: mods, weapons, arcanes, companions and restores. But when you do, and you find a playstyle that works for your build and how you want to play, then you also unlock the awesome potential Ivara has. Staying "perma-invis" during a mission is just one small part of that.

I get this, I really do. I think any persistent Ivara player has to understand that feeling. You do get a sort of triumphant response when you actually figure out ways to work around all the stumbling blocks the game is throwing in your way and make Ivara's kit work in spite of herself.

But while that's not a bad feeling, it's still an isolated subjective. On the grander scale, everything she does except Navigator is done by others better, and Ivara's left feeling like she was designed for a whole different game than almost every other Warframe. For example, Hydroid is bad, but that's just because the function side of the kit isn't present, not because everything he does has arbitrary drawbacks like it's being PVP counterbalanced. New Ember rework is the closest you get to Ivara's design metric, since everything she does is also made self-sabotaging or unreliable.

10 hours ago, Graavarg said:

I also think that the root of the problem is not actually Ivara, but how the game handles invisibility overall. It is currently a bit too op. I mean, imagine if DE reworked Octavia and removed the option to tea-bag invisibility. The outcry would be insane, "Octavia would be destroyed". A bit ridiculous considering Octavia not being a warframe centered on playing invis in any way, shape or form, but it shows how powerful invisibility is. Especially against higher level enemies, since they are just as clueless as their lesser compatriots.

Octavia (and Loki, liberally disarming) still have ways to eliminate most of their associated risks. Ash doesn't, but he's a beefier boy anyway, who was never really meant to hard rely on invisibility and can go dance on enemy heads for a while if he needs a breather.

Yeah, there'd be an outcry against Octavia losing invis most likely, but then the rest of her OP kit would leave them more or less unchallenged. Few things aren't subjected to the Resonator's brain-death control, and Mallet always at least gives enemies a high-priority target alternative to firing on the player.

10 hours ago, Graavarg said:

The best example of this is non-silenced weapons. While some enemies will rush to where you are shooting from (and some will actually shoot back) the current system is silly. If they can hear where you are shooting from they should ALL shoot at that spot, and not only "shoot", they should "spray and pray" like crazy, since an invisible Tenno killing them is a big threat (even bigger than visible ones). The same goes for melee enemies, they should charge to the spot and act like crazed windmills, trying to hit you. And all enemies having AoE weapons should just pump out damage and procs at an assumed invis enemy. All this is even more true for weapons leaving visible traces (like rockets), pointing right back at you. And for invis melee, since they CAN see where their friends are being massacred. But instead they basically do nothing (as soon as you stop killing them). My gut feeling is that DE has improved this a bit every once in a while (like with infested Chargers), but enemies are still ridiculously clueless concerning invisibility.

I also think it is very surprising that the factions haven't created anything countering invisibility. Throwing a pot of paint at an invisible enemy is not exactly rocket science, now is it. A technically more advanced anti-invis tool would be a deployable/fixed "Tenno-scanner", after all they already have that technology (like lasers and electric traps).

My point is that Ivara's "bad" isn't really Ivara being "too weak/challenging", but that other forms of invis simply are "too good/too op". It is only when comparing Ivara against the rest that this "problem" arises, when actually playing Ivara she is pretty g'damn good (according to me 🙂). So in my opinion the "fix" is not increasing the power-creep further by making Ivara even better, but instead fix how the enemies handle invisibility. That would, incidentally, also make Ivara's Infiltrate-augment more meaningful (as it should be). It might not help with the pots of paint enemies would try to tag her with, but she would be able to ignore any deployable laser scanners.

DE consistently states that they would like to buff playing actively, and inhibit passive afk-style play. Well, invis is partly used as one of the most "passivating" abilities in the game, simply because not one enemy faction (not even the sentients) have a single in-fight tool against it. That should be fixed.

You say that, but have you fought bosses who outright ignore invisibility? I remember tackling the Profit Taker on launch as Ivara and it was practically impossible, because you just got rockets constantly homing in that you can't dodge because you're more glacial than the terrain you're standing on. It didn't help much to be invis to the rest of the generic mobs, while the boss obliterated paper-thin Ivara by itself.

The things which target by sound are also doing it far too effectively right now. Not only do they target with exact precision where you'd think they'd be inaccurate by not having an exact visual confirmation of the source, most will quite happily continue to shoot long after you stop making the noise. I've died more times than I care to admit because I just didn't hear Venin Mutalists on Deimos still spitting darts exactly on target after my last gunblade shot.

When threats start to get higher - or utter BS like the Juno Elite Crewmen are allowed to exist - Warframe unfortunately quickly becomes like the quote from the movie Wargames; "The only winning move is not to play." It's almost inevitably required that enemies never even get the chance to attack, and Ivara's tool for that is having to stay invisible the entire time. Give enemies anti-invisibility tools and she's just rendered non-viable, because Sleep Arrows will not be able to handle the control alone (and Noise Arrows lose what little function they had, too). Ivara needs the reliable invisibility to control the battlefield at higher levels, or when spawn rates are sufficiently high (hello Sponge Path) that the relatively small coverage and non-refreshing effect of Sleep can't keep every direction safe.

Ivara doesn't have a massive room-disabling radial, a beefy health pool, or reliable ways to murder rooms en masse (Concentrated Arrow absolutely doesn't count, that's a self-nerf you pay for). Current expected content scales high enough that she needs invisibility or she needs significant buffs elsewhere. _{Why not both, even? Everyone else gets to 'Muh power fantasy.'}

 

I think most Ivara players are generally solo-inclined for a reason. She doesn't fit well with a squad because she's too busy trying to work around the shackles holding her down.

[Graavarg]

14 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You say that, but have you fought bosses who outright ignore invisibility? I remember tackling the Profit Taker on launch as Ivara... 

The things which target by sound are also doing it far too effectively right now. 

Ivara doesn't have a massive room-disabling radial, a beefy health pool, or reliable ways to murder rooms en masse (Concentrated Arrow absolutely doesn't count, that's a self-nerf you pay for). 

I think most Ivara players are generally solo-inclined for a reason. She doesn't fit well with a squad because she's too busy trying to work around the shackles holding her down.

I actually did try Profit-Taker with Ivara on launch, both solo and in squads. I agree Solo was horrible, not only was Profit-Taker's damage output "bigger than expected" but allowing the alert level to increase led to a situation that you simply couldn't fix. You could actually side-step the mob factor by plinking down her shields etc. from "sniper distance", but then when you got to the "5 minutes left"-phase you were basically f*cked. DE's design team is never to be underestimated 🙂. Ivara worked better in a pre-def squad as one of two "designated shooters", but lets just say Profit-Taker is not the mission where Ivara gets to shine. I don't necessarily see that as a problem, I don't think a game with 45 warframes should allow every warframe to be relevant for every mission.

Don't agree with the enemy "target by sound", since it is quite easy to avoid and they only shoot at the spot you were standing.

Ivara can easily murder rooms or masses of enemies using Gas. While not part of her abilities, she is one of the few warframes that makes Gas Cloud procs reach their true potential, and incidentally that also fits her slower playstyle. Mod Zakti Prime for max Gas, status chance & multishot, go invis and spread that Gas and be amazed 🙂. If you want to bunch them up even more there are ways to do that too (but it is seldom necessary).

I totally agree with you that Ivara is one of the best (even possibly the overall best) solo warframe. She does also have a (pretty strong) niche in pre-def team play, with a build focusing on her buffing & supporting abilities (Empowered Quiver: Dashwire = 100% CD & Cloak = 100% status effect immunity), but that works best with a hardcore team communicating by voice. Add Zenurik and Magus Repair to the mix, and you can support team mates with "unlimited" energy and healing, in addition to making them invisible, immune to status effects and creating new "in-game space" options (dashwires). And that still leaves plenty room for other supportive mods & arcanes...

I think we all have those warframes that "changed" the game for us. For me Ivara was one of them, opening up new ways to play the game and new ways of handling challenges. She is still one of my 4-5 "goto" warframes, and how she moves and what she does is now part of my "Warframe brain stem" 🙂. I am not opposed to changes, but I see no real need for them and I think any changes should be done "very, very thoughtfully and carefully".