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Warframes which are no longer used/viable in 2020


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19 hours ago, Whitestrake0 said:

No matter what the level, you just have to be more self-aware. CC however, it's been dead for a solid 3 years now. In fact its been a massive problem that I wish would be addressed, cause I remember I'd see Vauban, Nyx etc all the time in 2016 and 2017. Now, I have not played with either in probably a solid 30 missions.

Depending on which game mode, no matter how aware you are, you will die if you ain't tank enough. Specifically survival in which the area is covered by enemies in every direction. CC is becoming more relevant to not just die and when defending something. Hence the revival of frames such as Vauban.

Nyx has gotten her own little niche too with the ability to tear off any steel path effects from the enemy. Effectively giving her the best armor strip which can also remove shields, be it only on a single target. Tho I think she could still be buffed more.

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Funny read here. 

Literally put Shooting Gallery, Ensnare, Breach Surge, Specrorage, Pillage, Larva or Resonator on any frame and build for that ability and you ez mode anything steel path. 

I've taken Rhino with base health replaced Iron Skin with Resonator then solo him to about lvl 5k kuva survival. Enemies just ignore you. Do w/e tf you want. Did the same thing on a base hp Nidus in Selkie replacing Parasitic Link with Resonator using only rolling guard and his passive to survive. Just break enemy ai and you win. 

I've taken Ash, Banshee, Baruuk, Ember, Frost, Gauss, Harrow, Khora, Mag, Mesa, Mirage, Nyx, Rhino, Nidus, Wisp, Vauban, Volt and Zephr (I'm sorry to the frames I forgot to mention) to at least lvl 1k+ in SP using stupid builds.

No need armor. No need health. Melee is busted. CC and shield gating is king. 

Edited by Berzerkules
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20 hours ago, Whitestrake0 said:

For survivability, that's true. But its still possible to get by without it on a frame. No matter what the level, you just have to be more self-aware. CC however, it's been dead for a solid 3 years now. In fact its been a massive problem that I wish would be addressed, cause I remember I'd see Vauban, Nyx etc all the time in 2016 and 2017. Now, I have not played with either in probably a solid 30 missions.

You may be a very good player or have a meta build, but I don't think you can survive in SP without damage soaking or full on invisibility. You get oneshot out of nowhere, especially if it is a high level SP and the enemies are scaling up.

 

  

1 hour ago, Sloan441 said:

Hardly. 

This sort of thing is just tiresome and very much is nonsense. 

It's also not worth repeating myself. Some just have to have some controversy where none exists. 

 

 

You don't have to post. 

But then I know you have to because the thread triggered you.

  

28 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

 

No need armor. No need health. Melee is busted. CC and shield gating is king. 

Nah.

Edited by White_Matter
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20 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

Stop using Helminth as an excuse. Helminth is not a reason to not rework frames.

Of course it shouldnt be a reason to not rework frames, it is still a solution that makes all frames viable, even if they are in need of a rework. And the thread was about what frames that arent viable or useful anymore and my answer is that all frames are currently viable and useful thanks to helminth. That doesnt mean I dont wanna see reworks, I want the reworks so I can use full kits when I like. Right now there is barely a single frame where I dont use a helminth option.

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4 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

I stand corrected.

Why aren't they focusing her though ?

I just stacked 2 crowd control abilities on her using Shooting Gallery and Chaos. Shooting Gallery jams their guns and Chaos makes them fight each other. If the duration expired on either of those abilities the other one would still be protecting me. I was using Muzzle Flash augment for Shooting Gallery so they also get blinded. 

With 3 forms of crowd control I could do whatever I wanted. I occasionally get tagged by a stray bullet from an enemy outside the 30m radius of Shooting Gallery or an enemy in a nulli bubble. That breaks my shields but damage does not spill over into my health pool. I just roll to proc Rolling Guard and cast any ability to regen max shields using Brief Respite and Augur set mods. 

 

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1 hour ago, Berzerkules said:

I just stacked 2 crowd control abilities on her using Shooting Gallery and Chaos. Shooting Gallery jams their guns and Chaos makes them fight each other. If the duration expired on either of those abilities the other one would still be protecting me. I was using Muzzle Flash augment for Shooting Gallery so they also get blinded. 

With 3 forms of crowd control I could do whatever I wanted. I occasionally get tagged by a stray bullet from an enemy outside the 30m radius of Shooting Gallery or an enemy in a nulli bubble. That breaks my shields but damage does not spill over into my health pool. I just roll to proc Rolling Guard and cast any ability to regen max shields using Brief Respite and Augur set mods. 

 

That's as Meta as it gets though. I also noticed you have the zaw augment that crowds enemies together.

The thing is, most players play casually. So the moment they step into SP with certain frames they are done for. So yeah in a sense I still stand by what I said.

 

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8 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

That's as Meta as it gets though. I also noticed you have the zaw augment that crowds enemies together.

The thing is, most players play casually. So the moment they step into SP with certain frames they are done for. So yeah in a sense I still stand by what I said.

 

I wasn't aware that replacing Nyx's Absorb with Shooting Gallery or running Exodia Hunt Sepfahn was meta. Not that I care, I just build for endurance because I enjoy it. Whatever the current meta is DE will most likely nerf it so I find it better to do my own thing.

You started a topic about frames that are not viable in 2020. Since 2020 brought us the Helminth System, pretty much every frame is viable up against any lvl enemy and what's meta or the casual SP experience has absolutely nothing to do with it. Just because me, you or someone else can't make a viable build does not mean it can't be done. 

What's viable is also totally subjective. Someone might consider being able to complete a single SP node would make a frame viable. Others might consider clearing every single node on SP with a single frame using only base abilities and no Helminth abilities makes a frame viable. I'm only concerned with endurance so every frame except Inaros is viable. Some frames kits are not as well suited for an endurance setting and it takes a little more effort, but thanks to the helminth and shield gating it's totally possible. 

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your opinion isn't viable in 2020, since you fail to realize that warframes have a lot of means for survival outside their kit. Every "flaw" in a frame can be fixed through arcanes, operator, weapons and companions. Everything is viable nowadays. Now, to clarify, viable =/= efficent.

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15 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

I wasn't aware that replacing Nyx's Absorb with Shooting Gallery or running Exodia Hunt Sepfahn was meta. Not that I care, I just build for endurance because I enjoy it. Whatever the current meta is DE will most likely nerf it so I find it better to do my own thing.

You started a topic about frames that are not viable in 2020. Since 2020 brought us the Helminth System, pretty much every frame is viable up against any lvl enemy and what's meta or the casual SP experience has absolutely nothing to do with it. Just because me, you or someone else can't make a viable build does not mean it can't be done. 

What's viable is also totally subjective. Someone might consider being able to complete a single SP node would make a frame viable. Others might consider clearing every single node on SP with a single frame using only base abilities and no Helminth abilities makes a frame viable. I'm only concerned with endurance so every frame except Inaros is viable. Some frames kits are not as well suited for an endurance setting and it takes a little more effort, but thanks to the helminth and shield gating it's totally possible. 

Outliers don't make something viable. That goes for everything in life. 

There will always be people who can or will think outside the box and/or obsess over things more than the rest of the members of a society. Their accomplishments don't define the norm. 

And you are right, none of those things you mentioned define the meta. But together combined they do.

 

  

4 hours ago, vanaukas said:

your opinion isn't viable in 2020, since you fail to realize that warframes have a lot of means for survival outside their kit. Every "flaw" in a frame can be fixed through arcanes, operator, weapons and companions. Everything is viable nowadays. Now, to clarify, viable =/= efficent.

Again, things can be done by going outside the norm but that act surely doesn't define the norm.

By norm I mean the skill level and means of an average player.

Edited by White_Matter
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2 hours ago, White_Matter said:

Again, things can be done by going outside the norm but that act surely doesn't define the norm.

By norm I mean the skill level and means of an average player.

Understanding the holistic design of warframe should be considered the norm honestly, since it's the very core of the game besides horde shooting (modular systems on top of modular systems).  But I understand your point tho, I can't change the reallity of the playerbase.

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40 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

Outliers don't make something viable. That goes for everything in life. 

There will always be people who can or will think outside the box and/or obsess over things more than the rest of the members society. Their accomplishments don't define the norm. 

And you are right, none of those things you mentioned define the meta. But together combined they do.

 

Again, things can be done by going outside the norm but that act surely doesn't define the norm.

By norm I mean the skill level and means of an average player.

I'm confused again. 

My outside the box meta builds preform so well that they aren't viable?

Normal and viable are two entirely different things.  Any normal player could take the exact same build and easily run it because it's viable. It's brain dead and requires very little skill to play because it essentially turns off enemy ai. They could also figure out that just stacking several forms of CC  is an effective way of surviving. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

I'm confused again. 

My outside the box meta builds preform so well that they aren't viable?

Normal and viable are two entirely different things.  Any normal player could take the exact same build and easily run it because it's viable. It's brain dead and requires very little skill to play because it essentially turns off enemy ai. They could also figure out that just stacking several forms of CC  is an effective way of surviving. 

 

 

 

Nothing to be confused about. 

You are suggesting a specific meta build that makes Nyx viable. And I'm saying that it is an outlier example.

Like I mentioned above, modifications I did for Saryn, make her a melee killer in SP. That doesn't mean Saryn is a viable frame though. My specific build is.  Which requires tools that the average player may not have access to. That is the point of the thread, without a full Meta build, certain frames won't make it in SP, like cheesing the AI in your case.

And there is more to it. Is your Nyx build equally viable against high level corpus in a different tileset where there re more open spaces ? Obviously not, because there are more ability nullyfying units than just the bubble guys and there are longer range enemies.

tl;dr : A specific meta build fitting a particular instance doesn't validate the viability of a frame.

Edited by White_Matter
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4 hours ago, White_Matter said:

Nothing to be confused about. 

You are suggesting a specific meta build that makes Nyx viable. And I'm saying that it is an outlier example.

Like I mentioned above, modifications I did for Saryn, make her a melee killer in SP. That doesn't mean Saryn is a viable frame though. My specific build is.  Which requires tools that the average player may not have access to. That is the point of the thread, without a full Meta build, certain frames won't make it in SP, like cheesing the AI in your case.

And there is more to it. Is your Nyx build equally viable against high level corpus in a different tileset where there re more open spaces ? Obviously not, because there are more ability nullyfying units than just the bubble guys and there are longer range enemies.

tl;dr : A specific meta build fitting a particular instance doesn't validate the viability of a frame.

Running Mot is essentially a mix of all factions. It's a pretty good metric to test a build against and has kind of been the standard that endurance runners use. Void enemies also deal 200% extra damage. I could run that build, or a variation of it, on any tileset vs. any faction. I have more tools at my disposal besides just warframe abilities. I'm going to use the tileset to my advantage and let the enemies come to me, not stand in huge open areas waiting to get shot.

I don't have to just use Shooting gallery on that Nyx build. I could have used Breach Surge/Radial Blind to blind enemies, Ensnare to group enemies, Resonator to have them rush my location and not aggro me, Larva to group enemies, Thermal Sunder to freeze enemies or Defy and a panic button. I would have to make an adjustments but those are all viable options. Nyx is already a cc frame all I'm doing is playing to her existing strengths. 

Any one of those builds on Nyx could solo SP survival, disruption, interception, excavation, defense, or any other mission type.

There is no way that Nyx is not viable a viable frame.

Viable means capable of working successfully, feasible. What the average player is capable of or willing to do, has nothing to do what is feasibly possible. 

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14 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Running Mot is essentially a mix of all factions. It's a pretty good metric to test a build against and has kind of been the standard that endurance runners use. Void enemies also deal 200% extra damage. I could run that build, or a variation of it, on any tileset vs. any faction. I have more tools at my disposal besides just warframe abilities. I'm going to use the tileset to my advantage and let the enemies come to me, not stand in huge open areas waiting to get shot.

I don't have to just use Shooting gallery on that Nyx build. I could have used Breach Surge/Radial Blind to blind enemies, Ensnare to group enemies, Resonator to have them rush my location and not aggro me, Larva to group enemies, Thermal Sunder to freeze enemies or Defy and a panic button. I would have to make an adjustments but those are all viable options. Nyx is already a cc frame all I'm doing is playing to her existing strengths. 

Any one of those builds on Nyx could solo SP survival, disruption, interception, excavation, defense, or any other mission type.

There is no way that Nyx is not viable a viable frame.

Viable means capable of working successfully, feasible. What the average player is capable of or willing to do, has nothing to do what is feasibly possible. 

A frame can't be considered "viable" with a forced cheese/meta build that isn't accessible to a good portion of the playerbase.  I mean even if some people have the means to make the exact same or a similar build, they might be not be a tryhard. You are apparently a guy who runs hundreds of minutes of survival. That must be like the top 0.1% of the player base or something.

I also would love to see that build you posted above in a corpus excavation with the new corpus enemies. Not saying that you couldn't pull it off but you'd have to clench much harder.

 

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4 hours ago, White_Matter said:

A frame can't be considered "viable" with a forced cheese/meta build that isn't accessible to a good portion of the playerbase.  I mean even if some people have the means to make the exact same or a similar build, they might be not be a tryhard. You are apparently a guy who runs hundreds of minutes of survival. That must be like the top 0.1% of the player base or something.

I also would love to see that build you posted above in a corpus excavation with the new corpus enemies. Not saying that you couldn't pull it off but you'd have to clench much harder.

 

2020 brought the Helminth System which has a MR8 requirement.  Any MR8 player has access to everything required to exactly copy that build. Can't really say that a good portion of the player base does not have access to all the gear I used, when there is only a MR8 requirement. 

Viable means capable of working successfully; feasible.

If a meta helminth build makes a frame viable that frame is viable. It is capable of working successfully and acquiring all necessary gear is feasible for any MR8 players. 

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14 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

2020 brought the Helminth System which has a MR8 requirement.  Any MR8 player has access to everything required to exactly copy that build. Can't really say that a good portion of the player base does not have access to all the gear I used, when there is only a MR8 requirement. 

Viable means capable of working successfully; feasible.

If a meta helminth build makes a frame viable that frame is viable. It is capable of working successfully and acquiring all necessary gear is feasible for any MR8 players. 

MR8 may grant helminth but you still need to provide the materials and frames to feed the helminth to get the ability you want.

I guess we have to agree to disagree here. It seems like we won't agree on the definition of "viable" as I do think the context matters. I don't consider making something work with a specific meta build as universally viable. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, White_Matter said:

MR8 may grant helminth but you still need to provide the materials and frames to feed the helminth to get the ability you want.

I guess we have to agree to disagree here. It seems like we won't agree on the definition of "viable" as I do think the context matters. I don't consider making something work with a specific meta build as universally viable. 

Since we can't agree on the dictionary definition of the word I doubt we'll find common ground here. I'm just curious what requirements you think must be met to make a frame viable though.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Berzerkules said:

Since we can't agree on the dictionary definition of the word I doubt we'll find common ground here. I'm just curious what requirements you think must be met to make a frame viable though.

 

 

I wouldn't necessarily say that there are a set of requirements, rather I think we should exclude outlier examples, like "tryhard meta builds" and cheese/exploit strats, as I don't believe they reflect the true standing of a warframe but more of a reflection of personal skill. 

I'm not sure if you are familiar with Dark souls series(or games of similar nature) but highly skilled content creators can take the worst/meme weapon and run through the game with it, showing that it is actually "doable." That doesn't mean it is viable though, as there are tens of weapons that are better and can do the same thing with less effort and without compromise. That is what I was referring to above when I said "context."

A bit off topic but I also think DE somehow circumvented reworking/improving certain frames by implementing the helminth system. While it allows to make nearly all frames better, that doesn't change the fact that certain frames(or abilities) need rework/improvements.

 

 

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Just now, White_Matter said:

I wouldn't necessarily say that there are a set of requirements, rather I think we should exclude outlier examples, like "tryhard meta builds" and cheese/exploit strats, as I don't believe they reflect the true standing of a warframe but more of a reflection of personal skill. 

I'm not sure if you are familiar with Dark souls series(or games of similar nature) but highly skilled content creators can take the worst/meme weapon and run through the game with it, showing that it is actually "doable." That doesn't mean it is viable though, as there are tens of weapons that are better and can do the same thing with less effort and without compromise. That is what I was referring to above when I said "context."

A bit off topic but I also think DE somehow circumvented reworking/improving certain frames by implementing the helminth system. While it allows to make nearly all frames better, that doesn't change the fact that certain frames(or abilities) need rework/improvements.

That Nyx build is about as far from try hard as it gets. Enemies have Chaos cast on them so the want to fight each other but they are also disarmed by Shooting Gallery and trying to fix their guns. They literally stand there and wait to die. I could have run a 5 min or 5 hour survival, it would not matter. All it is is working with a frames strengths and finding an ability that complements them. 

Kind of like what you were describing earlier in the thread with your melee Umbral Saryn build with a Helminth ability. You used Warcry to buff attack speed and armor. Toxic lash does double damage for melee and Saryn already has high base armor. You found an ability that compliments your frame. Saryn is already like the most meta frame in game. Umbral Saryn, you just double down on that meta. Add a subsume ability that complements your frame and you might just have yourself a "try hard meta build" to put mine to shame. 

Was your Saryn build viable?

 

DE has done 2 rounds of changes on Xaku since Helminth. Within the last month they have also tweaked Ash, Atlas, Chroma, Khora, Nekros, Nidus and Zephyr. Not complete reworks but they are actively working on frames. . Can't really say DE using Helminth as an excuse to ignore frames when 8 have been tweaked in the last month. 

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