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(Lore Questions) How are the Entrati even alive and why are they okay with Tenno being around?


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2 hours ago, Formous said:

I get that but it also doesn't make sense. Consider for a moment how that makes sense with the tenno, who are bound to the Man in the wall. by that assumption we die if it goes away. Yet how does a machine control a entire omnipotent dimension? It doesn't.  It wasn't a machine afterall which made the Tenno.

This is a misunderstanding of what the Heart does (as it's presented in the Heart of Deimos quest). The Heart keeps open the main gateway into the Void, what Mother refers to as the Wall of Lohk and the Untime Door. All the Void energies present in the physical realm flow through this door. The Heart, by keeping the door open (and possibly some other facilitating functions), enables the usage of all Void energy by those not in the Void. This includes the Tenno's powers. The Tenno have an innate connection to the Void and are able to draw upon its powers as a result of the Zariman incident, but those powers flow through the door. If the door is closed, that power remains locked away and inaccessible. As an analogy: if you have a million dollars sitting in a bank account in Ukraine, you cannot access that money from a bank in the United States. There must be a connection, a conduit or communication, between the two, or else the money sits where it is and you cannot spend it, even though it is technically yours. If the Heart stops beating, the door closes, and the Void stops affecting the real world.

I don't know what you mean by "the tenno, who are bound to the Man in the wall. by that assumption we die if it goes away." We have no evidence of a metaphysical bond between the Tenno and the Man in the Wall, unless you just mean the Tenno's Void powers. There's also no reason to think we would die without the Void. We lived fine before we were exposed to the Void's energies; we could possibly live fine without them.

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5 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

This is a misunderstanding of what the Heart does (as it's presented in the Heart of Deimos quest). The Heart keeps open the main gateway into the Void, what Mother refers to as the Wall of Lohk and the Untime Door. All the Void energies present in the physical realm flow through this door. The Heart, by keeping the door open (and possibly some other facilitating functions), enables the usage of all Void energy by those not in the Void. This includes the Tenno's powers. The Tenno have an innate connection to the Void and are able to draw upon its powers as a result of the Zariman incident, but those powers flow through the door. If the door is closed, that power remains locked away and inaccessible. As an analogy: if you have a million dollars sitting in a bank account in Ukraine, you cannot access that money from a bank in the United States. There must be a connection, a conduit or communication, between the two, or else the money sits where it is and you cannot spend it, even though it is technically yours. If the Heart stops beating, the door closes, and the Void stops affecting the real world.

I don't know what you mean by "the tenno, who are bound to the Man in the wall. by that assumption we die if it goes away." We have no evidence of a metaphysical bond between the Tenno and the Man in the Wall, unless you just mean the Tenno's Void powers. There's also no reason to think we would die without the Void. We lived fine before we were exposed to the Void's energies; we could possibly live fine without them.

Just a pity then it only mattered for all of 10 minutes. oh and was apparently phased out, and is yet under threat from the subdermal infestation eating it's way to it.  And let's not forget our very not through the door connection to the void that the Man in the wall has. I think what we have here is writer itus, where in they said "S#&$, we need to have a story" and went with some all encompassing threat that was a danger to the tenno. If the heart was so important to fuel the Untime door, then why is it that the Tenno gained their powers very directly from the void. Ultimately, I despise the idea of the heart.  It doesn't explain the Man in the wall's sheer control over the tenno, as demonstrated during the lotus scene killing her brother. (where did that plot line go?), or his reminder of that control during war within.  In this, I feel I have valid criticism regarding DE's writing team, if it even has one. I bet I could probably put together a full New War plot line that could be extensive and involved with more skill than DE's team at this stage, and you can evidence this with the Heart. The Entrati is okay, it's another orokin city and the Oro being resistant to the infestation is something I can accept, but the heart kinda goes overboard in literary skill. It opens WAAAAAAYYY to many inconsistencies.

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Without reading this whole thread, and at the risk of having my inbox flooded with a bunch of "Someone Mad has quoted you in a topic!" notifications:

The shortest, truest answer is that DE does not give a single, solitary pixel of a #*!% about keeping lore straight or having a cohesive story.  They don't.  They ignore plot holes and loose ends and the lack of continuity (no, not the Orokin kind.) like they ignore the community's desire for basic QOL to not be locked behind mods.

If you want to argue with me about this, please explain the state of Alad V's story arc before beginning your reply.

Edited by (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan
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This whole heart thing is utterly nonsensical unless the devs retcon a big chunk of the origin story of the Teen-O and the Void, or explain the myriad of contradictions in the lore and holes that Deimos brought (I mean on top of all the pre-existing others). They're going to have to tie so much together I can't wait to see this whole thing unfold. Like the heart somehow remaining active without a hitch, or surviving for so long with an entire Infestation strain absorbing the entire freaking moon it resides on, including certain sentient life forms, aka the Entrati family, who KNEW of its existence, thus making the Infestation aware of its existence through their memories, yet miraculously leaving it alone for who knows how many centuries. Hek, even without them, the Infestation should have reached the heart a good long while ago no matter what, even with the Necramechs wandering about. Oh and there's also the fact that the Sentient would have never missed such an obvious weakness in the Orokin's last ditch effort to stop them with their most powerful weapon, this existential threat to both their entire plan to destroy their creators and their very existence itself. AND the Orokin themselves, in all their arrogance, would have never been moronic enough to leave that thing so vulnerable or out of reach for so many obvious reasons, like for instance the Tenno, their WMDs, going rogue and blowing up their entire empire to smithereens... ESPECIALLY after the Sentient themselves, ALSO their creation, gave them plenty of warning and experience on the matter by also going rogue and trying to wipe them out. One would think they'd have learned from that and have an offswitch handy to stop the heart and cut the juice of their nukes before they go off... I guess making severe, repeated mistakes is the lot of everyone and everything in Warframe's universe... with such a critical mass of stupidity on such a scale, it's anyone's guess how the Orokin managed to even last long enough to build anything...

 

5 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

The shortest, truest answer is that DE does not give a single, solitary pixel of a #*!% about keeping lore straight or having a cohesive story.  They don't.  They ignore plot holes and loose ends a lack of continuity (no, not the Orokin kind.) like they ignore the community's desire for basic QOL to not be locked behind mods.

 

Pretty much yeah. I mean maybe they do care, but they put themselves in a very bad spot lore and storywise anyway over the years. But then again, they kinda did exactly that with the game's balance, so we really shouldn't be surprised. At least it's going to be entertaining to see how our dear devs try to make this mess make sense. I can only see a massive retcon working at this point, and it's going to have to be nice and tight this time if they want something solid to build upon from then on. I really can't wait to witness all of it, it's going to be fascinating.

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12 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

-snip-

I honestly don't think they've ever had anything planned more than a year in advance.  I have nothing to back that up other than anecdotal evidence, but I have had that feeling since I started playing.  The story, the mechanics, none of it looks like the work of someone with a plan or even a coherent general vision.  It looks like how a child plays, where they have a laser sword, but you have a rocket launcher but now they have a magic force field!  Just stacking on as they go, refusing to admit defeat.

I'm like 75% sure the New War isn't out because they have no idea what to do with it story-wise so they started in a completely different direction with Deimos, which practically came out of nowhere.  They just threw a bunch of flowery words together, locked the little bit of lore they cobbled up (without checking for continuity with old lore) behind grind to keep people playing, and called it good.  I would bet a small amount of money that they don't actually have anything but general ideas and vague storyboards for Duviri.  It was something that sounded cool so they put together some fever dream teaser trailer and there is very possibly absolutely nothing of substance behind any of that which is why they haven't talked about it and why everything they do takes so long.  If I'm right, it would very succinctly explain why all their trailers look so good and all their content is so empty.

What's very handy, and what I'm willing to bet will happen, is that they have a trump card with the void.  It represents wibbly wobbly timey wimey BS, which means they can retcon at will without it being a retcon.  If they did that on purpose, at least they were smart enough to know that they can't put a cohesive story together without a Deus ex Machina on hand to save their bacon.

EDIT:  Afterthought.  One of the biggest hurdles they face in story telling is the very nature of their game design and is the same thing that screws up Alad V's timeline.  They've done nothing to allow the game to actually change for players based on progression, like the start of Guild Wars for instance.  We will never be rid of the infested threat to this new heart thing on Deimos because they will never have game mechanics that allow for players to progress to having a purified Deimos, while others do not.  The planets do not change unless it's globally, which is why you encounter the end of Alad V's arc before the beginning.  They can't even figure out how to tell a story without locking half of it behind time-limited events.  They will never figure out how to tell a story with system wide consequences because it would separate players based on progression.  And because of that, I have lost all interest in the heart of Deimos because I know that it will always be there because Deimos will always be there in the state that it's in now.

Edited by (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan
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Only DE knows. The standard lore says all old orokins were killed. So they might have been in hiding the whole time or not considered a threat to the grineer empire since the entire planet is infected and probably the cause of a the growing infestation through out the galaxy.

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1 hour ago, Formous said:

It opens WAAAAAAYYY to many inconsistencies.

From what i have seen over the years in game story writing, most writers don't really give a single #*!% about consistency, sense or logic. Not to mention any rules they themselves set up in the game universe, which means retcons. They just pull whatever out their backside and roll with it. Especially true in MMOs, but prevalent in the video game industry as a whole.

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2 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Without reading this whole thread, and at the risk of having my inbox flooded with a bunch of "Someone Mad has quoted you in a topic!" notifications:

The shortest, truest answer is that DE does not give a single, solitary pixel of a #*!% about keeping lore straight or having a cohesive story.  They don't.  They ignore plot holes and loose ends and the lack of continuity (no, not the Orokin kind.) like they ignore the community's desire for basic QOL to not be locked behind mods.

If you want to argue with me about this, please explain the state of Alad V's story arc before beginning your reply.

Lets not forget the Ceres boss fight. Canonically, both Vor and Lech Kril are dead and gone by the time you reach Ceres, yet here they are, hale and hearty and ready to smash your face in.

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14 hours ago, Formous said:

And let's not forget our very not through the door connection to the void that the Man in the wall has.

The Man in the Wall appears to be the Void, or at least inextricably linked to it. But he is not a mortal being like us. He doesn't exist in this world. He is from and in the Void, so the door closing doesn't have an effect on him because he is still on the other side. The door closing would cut him off from the Tenno, for a duration.

14 hours ago, Formous said:

If the heart was so important to fuel the Untime door, then why is it that the Tenno gained their powers very directly from the void.

I feel like you didn't read anything I wrote. The Untime Door is the only reason the Tenno were able to gain their powers.

Here's how it works: The Heart maintains the Untime Door. The Door allows travel through the Void. The Zariman travels through the Void, suffers an accident, and the Tenno are created. If the Door wasn't open, the Zariman would not have been able to travel through the Void. The Tenno still owe their powers, indirectly, to the Heart, and when it stops beating, the Tenno lose their connection to the Void and thus their powers. This is made explicit during the quest.

14 hours ago, Formous said:

It doesn't explain the Man in the wall's sheer control over the tenno, as demonstrated during the lotus scene killing her brother.

The Man in the Wall has an inconsistent degree of influence over the Tenno. I certainly wouldn't call it "sheer control". And then you mention the Lotus controlling the Tenno during the Old War, which has absolutely nothing to do with the Man in the Wall. I'm not sure why you even mentioned them in the same sentence. At that time, he was being blocked from our realm by Rell, and so would have had no influence over either the Tenno or the Lotus.

14 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

If you want to argue with me about this, please explain the state of Alad V's story arc before beginning your reply.

Alad V's story arc being in shambles is not the writers' fault. It's because of game development. The writers gave Alad V his story, told over quests, events, and special Alerts. They did their job. Then, others in the studio decided to never repeat these events or memorialise them in any way, and when they reshuffled the Starchart in Spectres of the Rail (for progression purposes), they messed it up some more. None of that was because of the writers.

A long time ago, there were entries in the player profile for the events. It had the little messages at the start and end of the event so you knew what was going on and what had happened. They could easily do that again – little blurbs about the Hunt for Alad V and the Suspicious Shipments and Mutalist Incursions and the like. And you wouldn't even need the writers to do it because, again, they already did their job. The writing is done. DE just needs to put that writing in the game.

13 hours ago, Marthrym said:

Like the heart somehow remaining active without a hitch

It has been maintained by the Entrati family. Explicitly said during the quest.

13 hours ago, Marthrym said:

or surviving for so long with an entire Infestation strain absorbing the entire freaking moon it resides on, including certain sentient life forms, aka the Entrati family, who KNEW of its existence, thus making the Infestation aware of its existence through their memories, yet miraculously leaving it alone for who knows how many centuries.

The Heart is in a sealed chamber protected by the best Orokin security on Deimos. The Infestation may have been brought in by Grandmother for her purposes during the quest, but other than that we may assume that the chamber remained uncompromised this whole time. And the hive-mind's control over the Entrati is not absolute. For one, they're not doing its bidding. They're still individuals. For another, they're actively resisting. Mother says during the quest: "I can hear its hive-voice scratching in my mind: 'let the Heart stop beating, let the door close forever'." But she doesn't.

14 hours ago, Marthrym said:

Oh and there's also the fact that the Sentient would have never missed such an obvious weakness in the Orokin's last ditch effort to stop them with their most powerful weapon, this existential threat to both their entire plan to destroy their creators and their very existence itself.

Deimos was in the Void until shortly before the quest starts. It's possible it was kept there since the Old War to prevent the Sentients from reaching it.

14 hours ago, Marthrym said:

One would think they'd have learned from that and have an offswitch handy to stop the heart and cut the juice of their nukes before they go off...

All of the Orokin Empire's infrastructure was Void-based, and they ascribed it divine importance. Turning off the Heart to stop the Tenno is like stopping one's heart to fight an infection. It's suicide.

14 hours ago, Marthrym said:

I can only see a massive retcon working at this point

Literally nothing needs to be retconned. It all makes sense. People in this thread are acting like any new information is a plot hole simply because you didn't know about it before.

13 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I honestly don't think they've ever had anything planned more than a year in advance.

Many story elements of the game have been in the works for over 20 years, since the first concept of Dark Sector. Some of those story elements are still being realised now. The game has deep roots.

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2 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

Alad V's story arc being in shambles is not the writers' fault. It's because of game development.

So you're agreeing with the statement that 

 

17 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

DE does not give a single, solitary pixel of a #*!% about keeping lore straight or having a cohesive story

Because game development screwing over lore and story is exactly the points I've made in this thread.  DE as a whole does not care about keeping continuity or having things make sense.  They want the next new shiny thing to both appease the head dev who can't keep focus on anything longer than a month and to pull in new players to squeeze them through noob trap MTXs.  Story doesn't just take a back seat to all these things, it's tied up in the trunk trying to kick out the taillights.  The writers, though I wouldn't give them a pass on the quality of the writing, are still being forced to work around whatever shiny new BS the head devs come up with, instead of being able to keep a coherent story flowing.

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3 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

Can you give an example of this? DE seems to be pretty fair in their monetisation.

credit bundles and rushing builds.  Someone experience in the game and who already has some options for frames and weapons doesn't care about a 3 day wait on frames or a 1 day wait on weapons.  Someone with literally nothing but starter gear is going to really hate that wait period.  I know I did.  It makes rushing tempting, especially since they give you starter plat and don't tell you "you should probably spend this on slots."  The credit bundles are just downright predatory.

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11 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

The Man in the Wall appears to be the Void, or at least inextricably linked to it. But he is not a mortal being like us. He doesn't exist in this world. He is from and in the Void, so the door closing doesn't have an effect on him because he is still on the other side. The door closing would cut him off from the Tenno, for a duration.

I feel like you didn't read anything I wrote. The Untime Door is the only reason the Tenno were able to gain their powers.

Here's how it works: The Heart maintains the Untime Door. The Door allows travel through the Void. The Zariman travels through the Void, suffers an accident, and the Tenno are created. If the Door wasn't open, the Zariman would not have been able to travel through the Void. The Tenno still owe their powers, indirectly, to the Heart, and when it stops beating, the Tenno lose their connection to the Void and thus their powers. This is made explicit during the quest.

The Man in the Wall has an inconsistent degree of influence over the Tenno. I certainly wouldn't call it "sheer control". And then you mention the Lotus controlling the Tenno during the Old War, which has absolutely nothing to do with the Man in the Wall. I'm not sure why you even mentioned them in the same sentence. At that time, he was being blocked from our realm by Rell, and so would have had no influence over either the Tenno or the Lotus.

Alad V's story arc being in shambles is not the writers' fault. It's because of game development. The writers gave Alad V his story, told over quests, events, and special Alerts. They did their job. Then, others in the studio decided to never repeat these events or memorialise them in any way, and when they reshuffled the Starchart in Spectres of the Rail (for progression purposes), they messed it up some more. None of that was because of the writers.

A long time ago, there were entries in the player profile for the events. It had the little messages at the start and end of the event so you knew what was going on and what had happened. They could easily do that again – little blurbs about the Hunt for Alad V and the Suspicious Shipments and Mutalist Incursions and the like. And you wouldn't even need the writers to do it because, again, they already did their job. The writing is done. DE just needs to put that writing in the game.

It has been maintained by the Entrati family. Explicitly said during the quest.

The Heart is in a sealed chamber protected by the best Orokin security on Deimos. The Infestation may have been brought in by Grandmother for her purposes during the quest, but other than that we may assume that the chamber remained uncompromised this whole time. And the hive-mind's control over the Entrati is not absolute. For one, they're not doing its bidding. They're still individuals. For another, they're actively resisting. Mother says during the quest: "I can hear its hive-voice scratching in my mind: 'let the Heart stop beating, let the door close forever'." But she doesn't.

Deimos was in the Void until shortly before the quest starts. It's possible it was kept there since the Old War to prevent the Sentients from reaching it.

All of the Orokin Empire's infrastructure was Void-based, and they ascribed it divine importance. Turning off the Heart to stop the Tenno is like stopping one's heart to fight an infection. It's suicide.

Literally nothing needs to be retconned. It all makes sense. People in this thread are acting like any new information is a plot hole simply because you didn't know about it before.

Many story elements of the game have been in the works for over 20 years, since the first concept of Dark Sector. Some of those story elements are still being realised now. The game has deep roots.

I know the Man is the Void, not a aspect.

 

We did get our powers from the Void itself, as there is no seperation between the Tenno and the Void when they gained their power. The Ten-0 did not go through the Untime door, and was lost adrift in the Void itself. This is a inconsistency we can't handwave with the Untime door. The Entrati may think it matters to us, but they are innately unreliable narrators.  We did not go to the void to begin with from the Untime door or any element to do with Deimos beyond the raw research there that created the Ten-0's Void-drive, which likely ripped open reality itself to go through.   Also, the Untime door is a paradox. It's open to a universe that has powers that mental blocks could cease in select individuals born from a anomoly that no one else experiences? No, this is DE's bad writing and for sake of consistency, I don't feel it's viable.  More, it has too many inconsistencies.  Plus the Entrati are the definition of unreliable narration, their memories of who they even are, their world, or research could be considered spotty at best. How could they even really understand the Untime's door's purpose if Mother never even did more than assistance work on it.  She made a assertion, but I don't buy it.  Not after the evidence of the War Within, or the Man in the Wall as operated through Rell. Rell was flesh and blood corrupted by the Void. not a door. If the Untime door was responsible, Rell would never have been necessary.  So, I assert that older lore overrides a unreliable narration from Deimos.  And a Orokin one at that.  Plus the Untime Door was far from large enough for even the smallest Corevette of the Empire, barely fitting a dropship. The Heart thereby is a prototype Void-Drive at best, holding open a steady Void-gate. One of many Void gates at that, as demonstrated in Several locations.  Further, the Man's ability to drag our very souls around at will should be accounted for.  This is not a ability I think he can do with just anyone, instead only with his tempered Void Demons, the Tenno as we know them.

 

Alad V's story is a shambles in it's presentation.  It should be better contained and controlled through scripting. Hundreds of games have managed to do this. Why is DE given the free pass on Shoddy maintenance?  DE's quality control has dropped recently.  They can't hide behind Covid.

 

The Man in the wall's degree of control is hardly inconsistent. I would use the term "Overriding".  The reason for this is he can show up when, where, and however he seems to deem fit.  Were it to be inconsistent, we would need him to be bother more regular, and see us beat back his influence.  Even if you reject the Kuva, which he doesn't like, he still can override you then and there without a second thought. Assuming our Tenno is still new from his/her pod at the time of that quest, this means our tenno has been asleep, uninfluenced, for hundreds to maybe thousands of years potentially, there has been a long shut down of both contact to the void and use of it's power.  Yet the Man can take control with a metaphorical snap of his fingers.  He seems to instead follow the void motif of "The World that Watches and Dreams" instead of being a active participant. In the short, this means that he probably planned for everything going on right now.  And what happened to Rell is a scary warning for what the Man can do to a single Tenno. Though vice versa the Tenno might just not be as much a master of their powers as Rell became. Which is kinda a fun thought tbh....being this super wizard.  Will our tenno delve into the Void, accepting it, or reject it? Or find balance? Maybe the Duviri storyline if it's more then 10 lines of dialogue will have more on this matter, if DE can put together a coherent storyline for more than 20 minutes at a time, and remember it existed after the burrito break between the morning they started writing it, and the afternoon they released it.  Im going to be mean on this one DE if you read this. You need to get this together. People DO in fact play looters for story too.

 

Far as writing blurbs in game, yeah they could implant them into the game. They won't though. They probably think it wouldn't be worth it.  Or as I suspect, they don't even have a dedicated writing team. I'm not sure what that team even does all year.  I do Roleplay in other games, and I write lengthy events, stories, and more on the weekly basis.  I know how much work the review process can get, and have friends in the gaming industry who are also in that line of work. They get more done than DE does too.  DE's getting lazy, or complacent, or both.

 

The Heart could be maintained by the toothfairy and not change much.  They might maintain it by some esoteric mean, but we gotta remember the heart was a laboratory experimental component too.  It would definitely not become the basis of the Empire's void travel. Otherwise what's the point of solar rails, or the Void-drive of the Railjack which we can assume other Orokin ships upwards of dreadnought class would have had, circa Zariman Ten-0 which would dwarf the entire Deimos map and Necralisk+hidden ruins+heart and Untime door, which again raises the question of "Why" DE dropped this story of the door and promptly forgot it again, presumably after they ate a burrito after releasing the update.

 

The Orokin Empire existed long before the Heart became a thing.  Presumably, so did their solar travel. The loss of the heart wouldn't affect it, nor would their tech require the heart when we have very literal similar devices elsewhere in the Origin System.  We have void-drives which are entirely their own machines, Void Portals, and the Tenno at that too are easily their own seperate entities.  The Untime Door makes No logical sense.  And the Entrati have been stuck in isolation so long that they sent out a Hymnal to servants of the Orokin empire.  How could they have missed the fall of their own civilization? Unless Deimos fell to the Old Plague?  Which case then this accounts for why the Heart is not truly what they think it is anymore. That being the Empire already adapted the technology and perfected it later. the Zariman for example is easily long after the heart's making, and it had it's very own void drive.  And was lost in the void, and spat back out of the void when Margulis finally boarded it.  Again, DE, WHY does the heart exist?

 

Deimos being in the void creates a inversion of the Untime Door.  The Door into the Void is in the void?  how would that work? That's like a hose but both ends are in the water.  If nothing else, the Heart would have malfunctioned, and been completely separated from the Origin system. Assuming the heart was ever so important, the Tenno would have lost their powers for the complete duration of Deimos' separation, including War within, Second dream, and more. Plus the complete failure of the Solar rails, and more.  But why did this not occur? The Heart is a physical machine, otherwise no matter how Arcane, it would have been cut off.

 

Dark Sector isn't what I would call a good basis.  The issue we have here is DE spends so long between updating the story that their game is dying around them despite the warnings of people. They seem to forget their own notes now, and their own story arcs.  DE was caught on stream admitting to forgetting their even was a morality meter in Second Dream and War within, which brought on a tidal wave of consternation. You absolutely can not forgive such back seated writing.  It's only gotten worse.  I believe they were discussing the Sacrifice, and someone asked what the Morality system was leading up to.   That crushed my soul to see they forgot about it entirely, and I wager it got added retroactively in development. 

 

I get you want to say that there are no contradictions, but short of saying the Entrati are self deluded and not as expert as the Entrati used to be, the Untime Door is a relic of a older form of Void technology, and has no bearing on the Tenno and the Void at large, nor Orokin tech. Plus there are still more questions, like how did Deimos disappear? Wasn't the actions of Lotus hiding the literal Moon a great deception?  Is Vay hek going to pull our a Fomorion from a Rabbit's he fetched from a Grineer's hat somewhere?  I'd believe it at this point.  Nothing else makes sense unless I take a dimmer view of the Entrati's claims.  Not every actor in a video game tells the truth or understands it.  Especially not a amnesia racked infested family of Orokin so divided by squabbles over forgotten ideas and things (the entrati don't even go into the old vaults, and Loid indicates maybe even forgot they existed!!!!!!), grief over a half remembered man, and more, that you can not trust them.

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On 2020-12-04 at 9:39 PM, --Councilor_Vay_Hek-- said:

What I was confused about was that while yes they are infested the infested always consume both body and mind rendering its victims mindless twisted globs of zombie flesh. The Entrati appeared to have miraculously survived with only amnesia although as someone mentioned above they're using something to stave off the infestions grasp on them, but it seems that whatever it is will only work for so long before the infestion eventually consumes them regardless.

My bet is, we will learn more about how the family survived and transformed once Grandfather Albrecht comes back into the picture.  Notice how Mother keeps saying "maybe you can find out what he is up to" when she sends you off to isolation vaults?  I bet the he here refers to neither Father nor Son (and definitely not Otak, though it would be quite a twist if Otak turns out to be the mastermind pulling the strings on Deimos)...

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On 2020-12-08 at 6:25 PM, GrayArchon said:

I feel like you didn't read anything I wrote. The Untime Door is the only reason the Tenno were able to gain their powers.

Here's how it works: The Heart maintains the Untime Door. The Door allows travel through the Void. The Zariman travels through the Void, suffers an accident, and the Tenno are created. If the Door wasn't open, the Zariman would not have been able to travel through the Void. The Tenno still owe their powers, indirectly, to the Heart, and when it stops beating, the Tenno lose their connection to the Void and thus their powers. This is made explicit during the quest.

Wrong. The Tenno gained their powers directly from the Void during the Zariman Ten Zero incident, where they ended up stuck there for who knows how long. The Untime door itself is inconsequential to their state and abilities.

The Heart does not maintain the Untime door. The Heart did not exist when Albrecht was studying it, and he studied that thing for a long time, so much so that the entire Orokin oligarchy grew tired of waiting for him to show any result, and ultimately stopped caring, as for them the Void was a dead end. Albrecht himself says so in his recordings. It's what caused him to so recklessly try to go through the door himself. The Untime door is just that : a door. It doesn't "allow" for anything other than direct access to the Void through it, and a hazardous one at that. The Heart came well after Albrecht went through the door in his seriglass bell. The Zariman Ten Zero incident most probably happened because the Orokin were toying with the severed digits left by "the man trapped in the wall" when Albrecht had his daughter close the Untime door as "the man" was reaching for him through it, as again Albrecht himself says. They then studied them because the aforementioned digits were links to the Void, which is also mentioned by Albrecht. We can clearly see in our Railjacks, the severed digit being used to power our Void engine. The Zariman Ten Zero experiment was probably the first iteration of that Void engine, using a severed finger as power source in a military ship to use Voidjumps in order to expand their Empire even further than it already had. So the door itself is not, and has never been necessary to use Void energy, it just acts as a catalyst for the Heart to facilitate and widen the scope of its use, to channel and then redirect it more broadly instead of having to open potentially dangerous and unstable Voidgates all over the place for the more mundane Void-fueled tech. We also know the Orokin Empire existed long before they started using this technology, so closing the gate would not have meant the end of the Orokin, just a momentary inconvenience. Albrecht did have his daughter close it after all, and it didn't destroy the Orokin. They still had their own tech and sources of power, which is once again mentioned by Albrecht (radiation wars probably means nuclear power, as well as oil and smoke), and the fingers to study. The quest itself is just the Entrati family, a bunch of Infested Orokin suffering from amnesia, thus making them the unreliable narrators of their own story, spewing disjointed and fragmented pieces of information that they believe to be reliable, which makes it very much not so. The fact that when the Heart stops we end up so weakened is nonsensical, which is the very heart(haha puns) of the problem with this story. It does not make any sense for the Heart to have any influence over the Teen-O and whatever they can do. That's the issue so many have with it.

 

On 2020-12-08 at 6:25 PM, GrayArchon said:

It has been maintained by the Entrati family. Explicitly said during the quest.

 

Which makes no sense. Albrecht created the Heart. Nothing in the quest tells us that he shared his knowledge with the rest of the Entrati, not even his daughter. She herself mentions how her husband is the only one who can fix it, and again, no explanation as to why that is. And we've already established how they themselves are at best the unreliable narrator of the story, as Formous above mentioned, and there's pre-existing lore that either conflicts with or outright contradicts what the Heart of Deimos tells us. Don't get me wrong, that pre-existing lore is itself not necessarily more reliable, that's true, but there's more of it, it tells us more, it that makes it at least seem to be less shaky.

 

On 2020-12-08 at 6:25 PM, GrayArchon said:

The Heart is in a sealed chamber protected by the best Orokin security on Deimos. The Infestation may have been brought in by Grandmother for her purposes during the quest, but other than that we may assume that the chamber remained uncompromised this whole time. And the hive-mind's control over the Entrati is not absolute. For one, they're not doing its bidding. They're still individuals. For another, they're actively resisting. Mother says during the quest: "I can hear its hive-voice scratching in my mind: 'let the Heart stop beating, let the door close forever'." But she doesn't.

 

And that doesn't shock you? The entire moon has been absorbed by the Grey Strain, so much so that it's more Swiss cheese than celestial body now, yet a few walls, doors and old necramechs is all you need to stop it suddenly? Otak tells us that their defense has failed because there were no Dax or Tenno to curb stomp the Grey Strain, that the Heart itself is compromised. But as it turns out, nope, it's just Grandma Entrati having a go at it and using us, like the Orokin always do by the by, to jog the memories of her little family so that they can be nicer to each other. I mean I get it Grandma, your heart's in the right place (mwahahaha), but maybe next time let's not play with this seemingly vital piece of technology that we're not supposed to know so much about? Grandma Entrati, we're told, is neither a Dax soldier nor an Orokin scientist, yet seems to know enough about the Heart to damage it just enough to stop it without destroying it, and making it seemingly easy enough to repair and restart without too much of a hassle considering how high tech it is and how it's the McGuffin of this story and how it's everything blahblahblah... Who the hek are you Grandma? You even seem to be able to remember a lot more than all the others, and are even the one taking care of all the old doodads and shiny thingies because you remember what they are and what they mean. You even know about the seriglass and how it's not that big a deal, having a ton on hand, while Mother is obsessed with her one single solitary shard because she... has daddy issues? For an infested, even only partially, Grandma seems to be amazingly unphased, I'd go so far as to say even free of any and all influence from the Grey Strain, while the others can't even remember their names, hear voices in their heads, and what little they do seem to remember, well, turns out some of it is outright false. We went from "the Infestation absorbs everything, surrender puny creature, one of us! one of us!" to "nah, it'll be fine". Who are you Grandma? I find you more interesting than the Heart, the other Entrati, or Albrecht and his buddy in the wall and his magic fingers... and there's the Halloween doodad too, you remember old crazy stuff from the Orokin Empire and make spooky stories about it!

 

On 2020-12-08 at 6:25 PM, GrayArchon said:

Deimos was in the Void until shortly before the quest starts. It's possible it was kept there since the Old War to prevent the Sentients from reaching it.

All of the Orokin Empire's infrastructure was Void-based, and they ascribed it divine importance. Turning off the Heart to stop the Tenno is like stopping one's heart to fight an infection. It's suicide.

Literally nothing needs to be retconned. It all makes sense. People in this thread are acting like any new information is a plot hole simply because you didn't know about it before.

 

Again, as Formous mentioned above, if Deimos was in the Void all this time... how could we get any Void energy from it? The Heart pumps Void energy from the Void to our world through the Untime door. If Deimos is in the Void then... both sides of the Untime door are in the Void, thus creating a closed circuit. That is utterly nonsensical.

Wrong again. The Orokin Empire far predates Void technology. It just allowed them to spread further than the Sol System in a timely manner. And we've also shown how the Heart makes no sense whatsoever, and how even if it did, turning it off would be an inconvenience, nothing more. They would still have Voidjump capable ships, albeit only a handful (so many puns), and the ability to draw power form them, and even use them to open other Voidgates to draw Void energy from, provided of course they could replicate the Heart. There's also the fact that it didn't seem to hard to restart it after repairing it for us, with vastly diminished means and resources compared to what the Orokin Empire had available.

New information doesn't mean valid or sensical information mate, just saying. In this case we're looking at plot contrivences and inconsistencies (which are not always much of an issue or can be undertsood to exist for practical reasons, especially when time is a factor) in the rearview mirror, we're facing a big ol' hole on the road here, people are going to notice and ask questions. Some people like a coherent, somewhat sensical story, what more can I tell you?

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10 hours ago, Formous said:

I know the Man is the Void, not a aspect.

Congratulations on knowing this for a fact somehow. Where did you gain such certainty?

10 hours ago, Formous said:

We did get our powers from the Void itself, as there is no seperation between the Tenno and the Void when they gained their power. The Ten-0 did not go through the Untime door, and was lost adrift in the Void itself. This is a inconsistency we can't handwave with the Untime door.

I never said the Tenno went through the Untime door. The Zariman either had a Void drive or used the Solar Rails. Either case requires the Door to be open. The Door enables all Void technology. If the Heart stops and the Door closes, then the Solar Rails stop working (stated explicitly by Loid during the Heart of Deimos quest) and all Void portals and Void drives and the like will stop functioning. No one needs to go through the Untime door itself. The door just allows the Void's energy to flow into the world.

10 hours ago, Formous said:

How could they even really understand the Untime's door's purpose if Mother never even did more than assistance work on it.

Mother was present when Albrecht Entrati made the door and actively helped him in his research. You have no proof that she only did "assistance work". After Albrecht left (or died), Mother would likely have primary responsibility for the Heart. Her husband is also very knowledgeable about it, since Mother states that he was the only one who could fix it.

10 hours ago, Formous said:

If the Untime door was responsible, Rell would never have been necessary.

I sort of agree with you. If the Door was closed, then the Man in the Wall would have no access to our world, and Rell would have been entirely unnecessary. But shutting down the Heart was not an option to Rell and his followers, and some might say that the continued operation of the Solar Rails and other Void infrastructure outweighs the danger from the Man in the Wall, since that is indeed the tradeoff.

11 hours ago, Formous said:

Further, the Man's ability to drag our very souls around at will should be accounted for.  This is not a ability I think he can do with just anyone, instead only with his tempered Void Demons, the Tenno as we know them.

It's clear that we are closely tied to the Man in the Wall, but again his influence comes through the door like all Void energies. If the door closes, he has no way to influence us.

11 hours ago, Formous said:

Or as I suspect, they don't even have a dedicated writing team.

A lot of the story comes from Steve, but they do in fact have a dedicated writing team: Cam Rogers and Ryan Mole.

11 hours ago, Formous said:

They might maintain it by some esoteric mean, but we gotta remember the heart was a laboratory experimental component too.

Where is this coming from? The Entrati performed many experiments regarding the Void, but at some point, you can stop experimenting and start applying. I see no reason why the Heart wasn't built for its present purpose rather than some random experiment that surprisingly worked. The Necramechs were also built by the Entrati and they aren't experiments. They're functioning machines performing the tasks they were assigned (Infested corruption notwithstanding).

11 hours ago, Formous said:

It would definitely not become the basis of the Empire's void travel. Otherwise what's the point of solar rails, or the Void-drive of the Railjack

Your statement is entirely overridden by the stated fact that the Heart was the basis of the Empire's Void travel.

You seem to think that the door was a gateway that everyone needs to pass through to enter the Void. That's not what it is. The Untime door is a door that is always open, that allows the Void's energy to enter into the physical realm. No one ever needs to go through it (although they can if they want to; Albrecht, Mother, and Grandmother's Necramech have all done it). Instead, the energies that flow through the door enable all other Void machinery to work. The Solar Rails. Other Void portals. Copernics and Fresnels. And the Tenno's powers. They all draw on the energies of the Void, and those energies only enter through the door. If the door closes, then those machines can no longer draw on the Void's energy, because it isn't there. And it all stops working.

11 hours ago, Formous said:

The Orokin Empire existed long before the Heart became a thing.  Presumably, so did their solar travel. The loss of the heart wouldn't affect it, nor would their tech require the heart when we have very literal similar devices elsewhere in the Origin System.

The Orokin existed before the Heart, and were already highly advanced. But they did not have faster-than-light travel. Travel around the solar system would have taken days if not weeks or months. If you want to see what this would look like, watch The Expanse on Amazon Prime. It's a show where humanity has colonised the solar system, but it still takes them a while to fly anywhere, or even to communicate. Even the speed of light can't compete with the vast distances of space. Albrecht Entrati's lore fragments make it clear that he opened the (metaphorical) door to actually efficient space travel via the Void.

We have not seen any similar devices in the Origin System. We have seen other Void portals, yes, but the Untime door is not just a normal Void portal. It is the Void portal. And the Heart's beating ensures that the Void's energies are distributed from that portal, and that portal alone. That's the significance of the Heart and the door and why all Void technology relies upon them to work.

11 hours ago, Formous said:

Deimos being in the void creates a inversion of the Untime Door.  The Door into the Void is in the void?  how would that work? That's like a hose but both ends are in the water.  If nothing else, the Heart would have malfunctioned, and been completely separated from the Origin system. Assuming the heart was ever so important, the Tenno would have lost their powers for the complete duration of Deimos' separation, including War within, Second dream, and more. Plus the complete failure of the Solar rails, and more.  But why did this not occur? The Heart is a physical machine, otherwise no matter how Arcane, it would have been cut off.

This is honestly a good point. It does seem kind of weird. My assumption and headcanon is that the Heart being a physical object makes it possible. We see from Albrecht's story that part of his laboratory were transported into the Void when he crossed, and maintained their physicality ("I was standing on a precipice of familiar stone, jagged and unanchored, as though cleaved directly from the very floor of my laboratory.") We also see that the Man in the Wall's fingers, when severed and kept in the real world, maintained their Void properties, enabling them to be studied and used for Void technology like the Reliquary drives. So objects from the Void and objects from the real world maintain some or all of their properties when they are in the other realm. So maybe the Heart can act as a conduit for Void energies into the physical realm even when it's in the Void itself. It's a very weird theory, but then again the Heart serves a metaphysical role.

11 hours ago, Formous said:

Dark Sector isn't what I would call a good basis.

I don't know what you mean by a good basis. It just is a basis. That's not really a debate. I'm not talking about the actual Dark Sector game released in 2008. I'm talking about DE's plans for an original IP that they've had for twenty years. They tried to market it as Dark Sector in 2000, but were shut down by video game studios. So they remade it into the Dark Sector game that came out later. But a lot of Warframe's ideas came from that original concept way back then. This is clear if you watch the demo or other promotional materials, and they've said as much multiple times. That's all I meant. I was just pointing out that they've been writing this story, this exact story, for literal decades.

11 hours ago, Formous said:

Plus there are still more questions, like how did Deimos disappear? Wasn't the actions of Lotus hiding the literal Moon a great deception?

The Lotus hid the Moon (Lua) in the Void, which was indeed a deception because no one else knew she was going to do it or had done it. The Corpus later thought that the Moon had been destroyed – not sure where they got that idea, but maybe a reasonable assumption, since the Moon was gone. Deimos was translated into the Void by the Entrati in a planned manner. We don't know when or why; maybe it was always there, maybe they did it there during The Collapse, but it's been there for a while. We don't know what the other inhabitants of the Origin System think about it because no one has ever mentioned Deimos before. But, clearly, the technology to move entire satellites into the Void exists, at least for large Orokin installations. The Lotus did it, and the Entrati did it too.

12 hours ago, Formous said:

Not every actor in a video game tells the truth or understands it.

I don't think anyone is disputing this. Drusus Leverian is a good example of an unreliable narrator, since he clearly doesn't fully understand the warframes he discusses. You've brought up that the Entrati have been affected by the Infestation, which is true, and certainly a good thing to keep in mind. But Loid does seem unaffected, and a lot of our understanding of Deimos is based on his statements. Not to mention Albrecht Entrati's story, which is preserved in the inner sanctum of the Necralisk, where not even the other Entrati go.

20 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

Wrong. The Tenno gained their powers directly from the Void during the Zariman Ten Zero incident, where they ended up stuck there for who knows how long. The Untime door itself is inconsequential to their state and abilities.

It is not inconsequential, because the door closes during the Heart of Deimos quest, and the Tenno loses their abilities. It's extremely straightforward. You even mention it later:

21 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

The fact that when the Heart stops we end up so weakened is nonsensical, which is the very heart(haha puns) of the problem with this story. It does not make any sense for the Heart to have any influence over the Teen-O and whatever they can do.

I am trying to show you how it makes sense.

I'll try again:

The Untime door (powered and possibly assisted by the Heart) allows the Void's energies to enter into the physical realm and flow through it. The Solar Rails, the Void portals, other Orokin machinery, and the Tenno, draw upon these energies to do their thing. It all flows through the door, like how water flows through a turbine to generate electricity. If you close the door, this is analogous to damming the river upstream. No water flow, no Void energy, and therefore no power. This is not made explicit, but it's the only explanation I can think of or have heard to explain the Heart's activity, and it make a whole lot of sense to me. I didn't think this was true earlier, before Heart of Deimos was released. Like you, I thought the Tenno drew directly from the Void itself (although that is also never made explicit). However, when Heart of Deimos came out and gave us this new information, I updated my understanding of the Void's properties. Just because new information does not slot in nicely with existing information doesn't mean that it's contradictory. It just means it fits into the existing universe in a non-intuitive way.

28 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

The Heart does not maintain the Untime door. The Heart did not exist when Albrecht was studying it, and he studied that thing for a long time

The door that Albrecht opened may not have been the Untime door that we have today. Or maybe it was the same, and the Heart enables the distribution of Void energy, which the original door did not do. Mother says that the Heart "pumps the arteries of 'the here' and the Void", which is a rather poetic way of saying it does something important. We don't know precisely what due to her florid language, but the Heart is clearly vital, as stated explicitly and as demonstrated by events.

31 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

We also know the Orokin Empire existed long before they started using this technology, so closing the gate would not have meant the end of the Orokin, just a momentary inconvenience. Albrecht did have his daughter close it after all, and it didn't destroy the Orokin.

This is a facile argument. The Orokin Empire used the Void for a variety of uses, and even went so far as to ascribe it divine importance – a tradition that the Corpus still maintain today. Clearly, the Void later became important to the Empire.

In 1859, there was a massive solar storm. It knocked out the telegraph network in the United States and caused some fires, but most people in the world didn't notice (aside from the bright auroras). If such an event happened today, it would cause worldwide destruction and kill a massive number of people. We have become reliant on electricity and we have blanketed the world in wires. The Orokin didn't have Void technology before Albrecht, but they certainly had it after. And once they integrated it into their systems, they had no need for older technologies.

37 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

Which makes no sense. Albrecht created the Heart. Nothing in the quest tells us that he shared his knowledge with the rest of the Entrati, not even his daughter.

Why would he not tell her? We know she actively helped him in his experiments. We know he had to have told others, since they built upon his work. We know that his misgivings were "minute in the early days". Why would he not have continued working with his daughter in his Void research?

46 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

She herself mentions how her husband is the only one who can fix it, and again, no explanation as to why that is.

Son says that Father is "a leader in his field". Clearly he's very skilled at this sort of work.

49 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

there's pre-existing lore that either conflicts with or outright contradicts what the Heart of Deimos tells us. Don't get me wrong, that pre-existing lore is itself not necessarily more reliable, that's true, but there's more of it, it tells us more, it that makes it  at least seem to be less shaky.

A lot of the understanding of Warframe's story and universe is consensus from filling in the gaps. The lore tends to be made up of small fragments here and there, poetic language, vignettes with no context, et cetera, and then we make them work in a coherent whole. But we do that by making a lot of assumptions. Now there's new lore, and it doesn't fit in with those assumptions. But it's incorrect to say that it contradicts previous lore. It just contradicts the assumptions. So you revise your understanding of the story to keep it all straight.

In Natah, our understanding is that the Lotus had compassion on the Tenno and changed her directives (this is an explicit assumption made by Teshin). Then, during the Ropalolyst Assassination mission, Natah says that she was in fact programmed to pretend to care for the Tenno. Our understanding of the story now needs to be changed. Heart of Deimos challenges the pre-existing consensus in the same way.

56 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

The entire moon has been absorbed by the Grey Strain, so much so that it's more Swiss cheese than celestial body now, yet a few walls, doors and old necramechs is all you need to stop it suddenly?

I don't know what to tell you. Some defences are more effective than others. That's why we have secure biosafety containment procedures at the CDC that we don't have in everyday normal houses.

57 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

maybe next time let's not play with this seemingly vital piece of technology that we're not supposed to know so much about?

The Heart isn't necessarily some big secret. We don't know about it because it wasn't in the real world, but that probably done more to keep it safe than to keep it secret. And it's never broken down before, so it didn't need to come up. Do you know what power station supplies your home with electricity? I think most people wouldn't think about it until it stops working.

59 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

Grandma Entrati, we're told, is neither a Dax soldier nor an Orokin scientist, yet seems to know enough about the Heart to damage it just enough to stop it without destroying it, and making it seemingly easy enough to repair and restart without too much of a hassle considering how high tech it is and how it's the McGuffin of this story and how it's everything blahblahblah... Who the hek are you Grandma? You even seem to be able to remember a lot more than all the others, and are even the one taking care of all the old doodads and shiny thingies because you remember what they are and what they mean. You even know about the seriglass and how it's not that big a deal, having a ton on hand, while Mother is obsessed with her one single solitary shard because she... has daddy issues? For an infested, even only partially, Grandma seems to be amazingly unphased, I'd go so far as to say even free of any and all influence from the Grey Strain, while the others can't even remember their names, hear voices in their heads, and what little they do seem to remember, well, turns out some of it is outright false. We went from "the Infestation absorbs everything, surrender puny creature, one of us! one of us!" to "nah, it'll be fine". Who are you Grandma?

"Unassuming old person who knows more than they let on about mysterious topics" is a trope in sci fi and fiction generally. See the Shepherd from Firefly.

1 hour ago, Marthrym said:

Again, as Formous mentioned above, if Deimos was in the Void all this time... how could we get any Void energy from it? The Heart pumps Void energy from the Void to our world through the Untime door. If Deimos is in the Void then... both sides of the Untime door are in the Void, thus creating a closed circuit. That is utterly nonsensical.

A good point, which I attempted to address above. But keep in mind that we still don't really know how the Void works. It doesn't make sense by default.

1 hour ago, Marthrym said:

There's also the fact that it didn't seem to hard to restart it after repairing it for us, with vastly diminished means and resources compared to what the Orokin Empire had available.

The Entrati were responsible for maintaining the Heart. If it stopped, then the resources the Orokin Empire had available would be… the Entrati, who were the ones that managed to get it functioning again. So, working as intended.

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On 2020-12-04 at 7:32 PM, --Councilor_Vay_Hek-- said:

How are the Entrati alive if they got assimilated by the infested? Does the infested not consume any living thing it touches like the regular enemies that we find among the infested? I get why Salad V wasn't fully assimilated because he was more valuable to the infested alive rather than as extra biomass, but if that's the case what value to the Entrati have to the infested? Surely once the son allowed the infestation to spread and get out of control he would have out lived his usefulness and been consumed by the infested along with all life on the planet.

Another thing is why are the Entrati cool with Tenno running around? The Tenno carried out a system wide genocide of the Orokin, so why are they not even remotely concerned about a disembodied armored death machine with space powers rolling up to their door? Sure they may be a dysfunctional family, but you'd think if a terminator that tried to end their species just showed up they'd all be on the same page of not wanting anything to do with it.

Maybe I'm missing something and it all makes sense, but I just don't understand how this scenario even came to be. Going off what we know the Entrati wouldn't even be alive by the time we arrive, let alone the animals that we find on the planet. The infested consume all life and assimilate the body and consciousness of its victims, so how is their even still life on Deimos? I could see small holdouts of survivors that aren't infested like we saw in the Nidus questline, but they weren't already assimilated.

First and foremost, it is better to think of the entrati we encounter not as truly orokin. They are infested, an unique faction of the infestation.

All the entrati family got consumed by infestation because of the original son's recklessness, all of them, either before or shortly after the great betrayal of the tenno thousands of years ago. Only Loid/Otak remain the same original individual for the whole period.

The infested have the tendency to take form of the most powerful being they consumed. Manifesting as a bunch of supposedly powerful Orokins seem to be the legit behavior for them to do. And the Entrati, either because of the type of kuva they were using, or because of their affiliation with void power (or whatever the devs retcon it into a few years from now) was able to retain their individual personality and successfully avoid succumb to the infested hive mind. (the Jugulus seem to be also orokin, but failed at this step). This would explain why they lost their memory and have to make up new names for each other all over again (err ... spoiler i guess)

Side note: for some reason i think the fact that Loid and Otak accept this form of the Orokin as their master is the most tragic part of their story. To make a comparison, imagine we fail in TWW quest, the Grineer queen successfully performed a continuity, but THEN they start using our tenno DNA for their clones. Fast forward a few life times later, thousands of tenno clones already conquer the solar system and the Queens already moved on, Ordis pick one of our clone with the least imperfection and start calling it the operator again. That's basically where Loid and Otak are at.

--

As to actually answer your question, there are hints in the game that imply the Entrati and the rest of the orokin empire weren't in good term back in their day. If Deimos fallen before the Orokin empire collapse, then the Orokin clearly did not bother to come rescue, clean up, or rebuild the legacy of their peer. So from here, there could be a few intepretation:

- The conflict between the Entrati and the rest of the Orokin Empire was so toxic that they have no qualm calling those who killed their peer buddy-buddy even after knowing all their memory are lost 

-  We Tenno killed our orokin master, but they don't consider themselves as our master so in their eyes, that would only make us ... thugs ... thugs that don't like being pushed around but no longer really pose a threat to them in their current form (and then they process to pushing us around in the quest, but hey .... it's just game logic). When we came to Deimos, they were having much bigger problem to deal with and most of their hatred are preserve for their own family members already. So after the quest (and the ranking up) i would like to think that whatever the grudge they might still have with us killing the orokin are kinda diffused, with the memory lost helping a bit.

- As Mother said, they fully aware of what they are - not orokin anymore - so they don't necessary have any grudge in the form of "you killed my people". They now trying to put some distance between themselves and the "orokin" label (and come to think of it, i have not recall any bit of dialog of them refer to themselves as "orokin" in the game, only as entrati, correct me if u have one). So they somewhat already accept who they are, and moving forward with whatever the competent ally they have, reclaiming Deimos from the infested hivemind that they were lucky enough to escape a life time ago (by ... giving us bounty ....)

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27 minutes ago, FireSegment said:

If Deimos fallen before the Orokin empire collapse, then the Orokin clearly did not bother to come rescue, clean up, or rebuild the legacy of their peer.

Deimos fell after the Collapse. In the Heart of Deimos quest, Loid says "The Infestation wormed into everything. After the great purge, there were no Dax, no Tenno, to defend the place. Just us."

28 minutes ago, FireSegment said:

i would like to think that whatever the grudge they might still have with us killing the orokin are kinda diffused

Son and Albrecht both recognise the excesses and indecency of the Orokin culture, and are/would be glad the Empire is gone. Perhaps this holds true for the other members of the family as well.

29 minutes ago, FireSegment said:

They now trying to put some distance between themselves and the "orokin" label (and come to think of it, i have not recall any bit of dialog of them refer to themselves as "orokin" in the game, only as entrati, correct me if u have one).

When you look at any Entrati vendor, the description of the Entrati Syndicate says "Heirs to the legacy of Albrecht Entrati, his powerful Orokin family encountered disaster, isolation, and bitter division on Deimos."

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1 hour ago, GrayArchon said:

It is not inconsequential, because the door closes during the Heart of Deimos quest, and the Tenno loses their abilities. It's extremely straightforward. You even mention it later:

The Tenno actually retain their abilities. What happens is the tenno Warframe of choice (saryn) gets critically damaged by Orokin era weaponry by Grandma.  The Tenno still retains full transference powers as demonstrated using Snake, whose only limit was being old and wearing out.  If the Untime door was closed, as it was, then this would have been a total impossibility.  What we really see is that void tech can open mini-rifts entirely on their own.  Which still begs why the Heart matters. Albretch made it to study the Untime Door.  Beyond that it has no further function of discernable nature.  All we know is Mother thinks it pumps power from the Void, but to where?  The Solar rails are not functional to a new player because a Orokin locked them all down with a specific genetic key if memory serves that the warframes possessed somehow. Ballas I wager.

 

1 hour ago, GrayArchon said:

A good point, which I attempted to address above. But keep in mind that we still don't really know how the Void works. It doesn't make sense by default.

We can make a few assumptions regarding the Void. The Void is clearly based off the Warp from Warhammer 40k and Fantasy, being that it is a realm of energy of the impossible, bound to Souls(Oro), and has a immense godlike entity within it. It's also capable of manifesting a rift through either the biological minds of the Tenno, (or their Oro which are chained to the void imo), or can be opened as gateways through machinery, albeit with far less demonic doomsdays than 40k.  More I learn, more I see from warhammer. It's not a bad element and maybe one of the better handled sides of DE's lore.

 

1 hour ago, GrayArchon said:

This is honestly a good point. It does seem kind of weird. My assumption and headcanon is that the Heart being a physical object makes it possible. We see from Albrecht's story that part of his laboratory were transported into the Void when he crossed, and maintained their physicality ("I was standing on a precipice of familiar stone, jagged and unanchored, as though cleaved directly from the very floor of my laboratory.") We also see that the Man in the Wall's fingers, when severed and kept in the real world, maintained their Void properties, enabling them to be studied and used for Void technology like the Reliquary drives. So objects from the Void and objects from the real world maintain some or all of their properties when they are in the other realm. So maybe the Heart can act as a conduit for Void energies into the physical realm even when it's in the Void itself. It's a very weird theory, but then again the Heart serves a metaphysical role.

I feel Deimos opens a lot more questions then it should. Whether it's canon or not is up to you, but the railjack demo showed a void storm, presumeably something which can rip reality apart in it's wake.  I don't think that came from Deimos, but instead from a open rift.   The trouble with the heart is that I would discard all concepts of it being solely responsible for tech working, because how would it be functioning the system's technology when seperated for so long? It can't, so we can assume outright that it's not important enough to be the one and only object pumping the here and now.  Instead, the logical premise is better suited that the Heart's presence instead has a drastically higher strengthening effect of the Untime door.  If it functions like a chaos portal like 40k where Steve seems to take a lot of inspiration, then we can assume the Heart and door being in the material universe again is going to have a far greater effect on void energies across the System by simple method of a un-ending tide of energy.  To me, this makes far more sense as it's not a distribution device, but instead a literal pump.  The result? Maybe DE will actually make those void storms a thing now, and the Man in the Wall will get even more powerful influence over the Tenno.  I would more easily buy this over the heart somehow enabling hundreds of thousands of void-tech objects which paradoxically do the same thing on smaller or more focused scales.  It also doesn't make sense from a Empire stand point that 1 machine powered absolutely everything. Even the Golden Throne in 40k is fueled by psykers, the Emperor, ultra ancient but powerful fusion generators, and so on and so on.  It's probably only going to further the saturation of void energy.  This works far better as well in explaining how Void technology function, as well as the Tenno's mastery over it by summoning it quite literally on demand.  net result? Maybe we get strong enough for Round 2 of the old war.

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8 minutes ago, Formous said:

The Tenno actually retain their abilities. What happens is the tenno Warframe of choice (saryn) gets critically damaged by Orokin era weaponry by Grandma.  The Tenno still retains full transference powers as demonstrated using Snake, whose only limit was being old and wearing out.  If the Untime door was closed, as it was, then this would have been a total impossibility.  What we really see is that void tech can open mini-rifts entirely on their own.  Which still begs why the Heart matters. Albretch made it to study the Untime Door.  Beyond that it has no further function of discernable nature.  All we know is Mother thinks it pumps power from the Void, but to where?  The Solar rails are not functional to a new player because a Orokin locked them all down with a specific genetic key if memory serves that the warframes possessed somehow. Ballas I wager.

Just a thought on why the heart stopping didn't immediately end all void tech instantly that isn't just plot convenience. It could take a while for the process of what the heart is doing to stop completely or to put it another way it could have parts that function similarly to capacitors meaning there was still residual void energy in the system. If that was the case the switch from warframe to voidrig might make more sense as warframes, as I understand it, get the power needed to operate from transference and we've seen that voidrigs are capable of powering themselves. If the voidrigs are battery opperated then switching would preserve the remaining void energy by reducing the rate of consumption. All this is obviously conjecture but I find it holds together well enough and seems to fit the general pacing of the heart of deimos quest. 

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On 2020-12-05 at 5:34 AM, Hayrack said:

Deimos lore ruined Infestation lore for me. The infestation and it's... goals... should have been the central pillar of the story, not a background for Orokin Santa Barbara. Necramechs? What in the... Why not infestation-induced mutations, that turn your warframe into an infested beast? Why not infested guns that you stick on your new appendages? Why no explaining about relationships between Helminth infestation and Derelict infestation? WHY INFESTATION OPEN WORLD IS ABOUT TENNO AND OROKIN AND NOT ABOUT INFESTATION???

The idea of infested induced mutation already have multiple implementation in the game, Alad V, Jordas Golem,  The Zealot NW, the Chroma quest ... Heck, even our frame are also considered infested. It's already a trope in warframe even before the Deimos update, consider how it already be in 3 quest for 3 different frames (chroma, mesa and atlas), 2 event-ish thing ( ,   And we literally have an new infested arm canon as big as an appendage with the update, 

The thing about writing story for infested, in my opinion, is that a story would only be as good as of the thing it infected. Without it victim the infested is reduced into just 2 aspect: it spread and it make stuff even more grumpy with some form of body horror. The same logic is apply to other type of zombie story - more often than not, it's good because it's a story about how people react to zombie, not the zombie. itself. And clearly, DE also have the same opinion.

Think about it like this, Vome and Fass - the two biggest infested in Deimos - DE could  have easily made them some new big boss that killing us on sight, or make them peacefully replace each other each rotation, or emerge from each other's body the way a snake strip it skin. However the reason DE made them two distinct being and attack each other on sight each cycle is because it's a reflection for the theme of family and overcoming hatred that the Entrati family part fully explore. You can even have an argument that in term of world building, the entrati hatred for each other could be what make Vome and Fass this way in the first place with all the hivemind thing. Yes the infested is a background element in this case, but it's a glorious in-your-face background that manage to deliver subtext with a cool factor - which is miles away from anything Profit-Taker and Orb Mother - also the two biggest corpus boss - could ever reach in term of thematic and narrative. (oh the fortuna people are being oppress? let me not being oppressed by switching gun and throwing stuff at things)

That said, i do fully understand where the disappointment that you hold came from, because prior to the existence of the Sentient, all the lore we have do paint the infested with a big bit of mystery, woah where do they come from, what created them and woah wtf is the Lephantis. After the Sentient introduced, DE kinda swap all that mystery element to them and they get to be the big ominous boss while Infested got push into zombie type kind of thing, which is why most of the quest and event i listed at the beginning are pre-Second Dream content. 

 

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1 hour ago, GrayArchon said:

Deimos fell after the Collapse. In the Heart of Deimos quest, Loid says "The Infestation wormed into everything. After the great purge, there were no Dax, no Tenno, to defend the place. Just us."

well that bit of lore did go straight over my head

1 hour ago, GrayArchon said:

Son and Albrecht both recognise the excesses and indecency of the Orokin culture, and are/would be glad the Empire is gone. Perhaps this holds true for the other members of the family as well.

which are the hints I mentioned, yeah

1 hour ago, GrayArchon said:

When you look at any Entrati vendor, the description of the Entrati Syndicate says "Heirs to the legacy of Albrecht Entrati, his powerful Orokin family encountered disaster, isolation, and bitter division on Deimos."

good find, but it's not a dialog, and the sentence clearly indicate it wasn't written by any of the entrati member, at best it was written by Loid in universe but most likely it's just like an item description, and the last time i trust an item description, Dark Soul still haven't release it DLC

Edited by FireSegment
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34 minutes ago, Troposphere6 said:

Just a thought on why the heart stopping didn't immediately end all void tech instantly that isn't just plot convenience. It could take a while for the process of what the heart is doing to stop completely or to put it another way it could have parts that function similarly to capacitors meaning there was still residual void energy in the system. If that was the case the switch from warframe to voidrig might make more sense as warframes, as I understand it, get the power needed to operate from transference and we've seen that voidrigs are capable of powering themselves. If the voidrigs are battery opperated then switching would preserve the remaining void energy by reducing the rate of consumption. All this is obviously conjecture but I find it holds together well enough and seems to fit the general pacing of the heart of deimos quest. 

I disagree, because you still have the hose in water situation. If the Heart being gone would have a slow dying effect on warframes and void tech around the system, we would clearly see high powered devices lose function and the warframes lose power too. Plus the Tenno would have lost their power over the few hundred/thousand odd years after the fall of the Empire.   Also, the Untime isn't so limited if you examine all known instances of void tech.  Orokin void portals shut down immediately, and receive power from the Orokin void towers directly from the void, the Railjack was newly built and still became operational, the Tenno remained powerful if not growing yet more powerful.  The Heart also has no clear energy capacity either, losing it immediately on being damaged.  Even void energy requires a direct beam of energy to a object to create action. This is demonstrated rather directly in War within with the Void door switches, and assuming that they don't actually use void energy as is likely, Void energy is probably transformative as well, given how our amps can produce flames, beams, pulses, and myriad side effects like electricity such as with Zenurik, or Flame with Madurai.  And if Void energy is transformative, this explains warframes.  Void Rigs might have a form of energy storage, given our energy bars, but it's clearly not much, and several can be found presumably having been in a state of near constant warfare since the Fall.  No, it makes more sense that the Heart is a massive pump, with the Untime door literally spilling energy into the Solar System, which explains partly Albretch's experiences, and some teased features of Void storms.  We also know that a Void Collapse can happen, by way of Limbo, or at the most catastrophic, in Second Dream as we wrench the moon from the Void to stop a collapse shearing it apart.  Storms in real space would match the behavior of such a collapse.

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10 minutes ago, Formous said:

I disagree, because you still have the hose in water situation. If the Heart being gone would have a slow dying effect on warframes and void tech around the system, we would clearly see high powered devices lose function and the warframes lose power too. Plus the Tenno would have lost their power over the few hundred/thousand odd years after the fall of the Empire.   Also, the Untime isn't so limited if you examine all known instances of void tech.  Orokin void portals shut down immediately, and receive power from the Orokin void towers directly from the void, the Railjack was newly built and still became operational, the Tenno remained powerful if not growing yet more powerful.  The Heart also has no clear energy capacity either, losing it immediately on being damaged.  Even void energy requires a direct beam of energy to a object to create action. This is demonstrated rather directly in War within with the Void door switches, and assuming that they don't actually use void energy as is likely, Void energy is probably transformative as well, given how our amps can produce flames, beams, pulses, and myriad side effects like electricity such as with Zenurik, or Flame with Madurai.  And if Void energy is transformative, this explains warframes.  Void Rigs might have a form of energy storage, given our energy bars, but it's clearly not much, and several can be found presumably having been in a state of near constant warfare since the Fall.  No, it makes more sense that the Heart is a massive pump, with the Untime door literally spilling energy into the Solar System, which explains partly Albretch's experiences, and some teased features of Void storms.  We also know that a Void Collapse can happen, by way of Limbo, or at the most catastrophic, in Second Dream as we wrench the moon from the Void to stop a collapse shearing it apart.  Storms in real space would match the behavior of such a collapse.

What I was positing a reservoir that would allow for limited traces of energy to still be present after the heart stopped or that the process however it functions isn't immediately reversing. If you take a look at what father says right after the heart stops it seems to indicate as much, 

Father: "Alright, with the Void closing up, you're going to be too weak to help in that frame."

Father: "Snake's in rough shape, but she's got enough juice for one last ride. What do you say? Ready to go 'Old War' style?"

The fact he says closing up rather than closed up would indicate to me that the process of the untimed door shutting is more complex than turning off a light and the bit about snake still having some power while the warframe not being suited seems to support voidrigs having some sort of internal power component, though I don't think we disagree on that. Also could you explain why the door key stones don't use the void energy? and does that extent to the giant ayatan structure that allows you to climb over the pit you fall in on your first visit.

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