Neutral Nova Exists

[SneakyErvin]

A massive QoL they could do for both neutral and speed Nova is adding an extra effect to the power donation aura that makes it so you cannot benefit from positive power strength. That would solve alot of Enox, growing power and 2+ power donation group issues.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

8 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

You need two augments, 400% duration, and Nat Talent in order for Null Star to actually defend you, otherwise you're rocking a whopping 45% damage reduction -- how awesome! -- that will degrade to 30% by the time the casting animation is over. Nova is a squishy frame

If you're going to correct someone and be sarcastic to boot, make sure you know what you're saying first. Nova requires 300%(not 400% typo maybe?) Duration for 90% damage reduction from Null Star(each orb gives 5%, 18x5 = 90) and ONE augment, molecular fission to ensure you keep them. Then you add Shield gating and Adaptation to the equation, Arcane Guardian etc and you basically cannot die up until say level 400+ enemies. Not to mention that stacking duration has nothing but a positive effect on Nova and if you keep your range tiny you increase the chance of keeping your stars even more which also means you do not need Natural Talent. And that's not even adding in operators and those arcanes to the mix.

So NO, Nova is NOT a squishy frame. I guess you don't actually play Nova huh?

[Tesseract7777]

I had barely used Nova at all, then recently I tried Nova Prime out to really give her a go. 

Without even forma her yet or put on the augment I found her to be quite easy to keep alive. Null Star is a really good survivability skill, and if you are minimizing your range you shouldn't be losing your stars that fast. Decreased range really doesn't hurt her, and the increased duration is a positive too. Any frame that can run Null Star without any real negatives from the decreased range is quite the opposite of squishy. Funnily enough, when DE gave the ability for use in Helminth, I wonder if they considered the fact there really hardly is another frame that can make good use of it without hurting their own skills too much. 

[Ragnafiro]

12 hours ago, (PSN)DrGrib said:

This will not be news to most people here but I've encountered a few people on Hydron and Helene accusing me of using a Slowva because I'm not using a Speedva. The current Google results for neutral Nova don't seem great to me, so I thought I would make a dedicated post.

It is possible to make a neutral Nova. That is, a Nova with 70% power strength that results in a Slow 0% value for Molecular Prime. Most builds I see use Nova Prime, which is currently vaulted and not easy to access for new players. So here is the basic, no forma build I use:
https://overframe.gg/build/109958/

The key is a fully ranked Overextended (which brings power strength down to 40% and Slow down to -30%) plus a fully ranked Intensify (which brings power strength back up to 70% and Slow up to 0%).

Why not just use Speedva? Sometimes Speedva makes the enemies too dangerous in later rounds of Hydron and Helene, especially for squishy frames. I'm talking about Heavy Gunners, Hyekka Masters and their Kavats, and of course Nox. You don't want those enemies sped up if you have a squishy frame. I have seen Speedvas get squishy frames who could have survived normal speed enemies killed (and ironically killed my own Speedva).

Why use Molecular Prime at all if you aren't going to change the speed? This is probably obvious but in case it isn't: it makes the enemies weaker and makes them explode. Which is very useful, especially if you or your teammates are leveling a weak weapon as many people on Hydron and Helene are.

My counter-arguement for using Speedva over Normalva is this: Subsume Resonator with Conductor augment and build for high range. Deploy the ball and make it camp at the defense pod in Hydron/Helene. By the time enemies would get close enough to attack the pod, their AI would get turned off. Though the build isn't too friendly for protecting ally Warframes lol. Nova is a frame that naturally build high/max duration anyway so open room for range to make Resonator works should compensate for loose Null Stars that fly away.

[(NSW)Gamer-Steve]

14 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Also Hydron is a horrible way to level things and I recommend new players embrace other faster ways if they want to improve faster.

Yeh, Hydron's not really the most interesting mission to repeat either. I tend to have more fun piloting my Railjack instead. Any weapons you have on you seem to level up normally by doing that (Even distribution of affinity by shooting down fighter-craft), plus you're getting intrinsics in the process!

 

I most often went to Korm's Belt in Earth Proxima for leveling and scanning things, until I finished scanning everything in Earth Proxima. I've moved onto scanning / leveling in Saturn Proxima since then, as far as that goes.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Gamer-Steve said:

Yeh, Hydron's not really the most interesting mission to repeat either. I tend to have more fun piloting my Railjack instead. Any weapons you have on you seem to level up normally by doing that (Even distribution of affinity by shooting down fighter-craft), plus you're getting intrinsics in the process!

 

I most often went to Korm's Belt in Earth Proxima for leveling and scanning things, until I finished scanning everything in Earth Proxima. I've moved onto scanning / leveling in Saturn Proxima since then, as far as that goes.

I often use Adaro myself but I know Railjack is also a good way. The addition of Sleep subsumed onto any new frame has increased the ease of using Adaro for fast levelling. For companions however, Railjack 100%. The other thing is that newer players aren't going to learn any skills afking in Hydron but by actively levelling they will become better players as well as taking less time to level up since Hydron is really rather slow. You can always tell who levelled up in Hydron cos they're the ones who inevitably make a thread asking how to beat some of the MR tests because they never learnt the game's movement or how to adapt to different circumstances.

[(NSW)Gamer-Steve]

1 minute ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I often use Adaro myself but I know Railjack is also a good way. The addition of Sleep subsumed onto any new frame has increased the ease of using Adaro for fast levelling. For companions however, Railjack 100%. The other thing is that newer players aren't going to learn any skills afking in Hydron but by actively levelling they will become better players as well as taking less time to level up since Hydron is really rather slow.

That's an important point to consider as well. Getting more engaged with the mission at hand definitely rewards you both literally and personally, since it'd help you get better at working with everything around you, etc.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Then you add Shield gating and Adaptation to the equation, Arcane Guardian etc and you basically cannot die up until say level 400+ enemies.

I don't count these, ever. Basically every frame has those. Inaros is a tank because he uses stuff other than Adaptation.

But let's move onto the REAL meat:

1 hour ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Nova requires 300%

300% instead of 400% gets you up to exactly 18 particles 90% reduction, but with no safety net. If any enemies are within range when you cast, you drop to 16 particles/80% before the animation is even finished. Which would be fine in a vacuum, if it wasn't for:

1 hour ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

and if you keep your range tiny

Remember that the OP is talking about Speedva/Neutral Nova. Which means Overextended. Which means +Range, even if you try to counteract it with Narrow Minded. Which means you're constantly losing orbs to enemies

1 hour ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

and ONE augment

OK this is more to my safety net style of play, but I add in Neutron Star augment that lets you recast Null Star in case the number of orbs drops too low. You might ask why I'm adding in safety nets, and the answer is the entire point of this discussion is to run a tank build

So what are we up to? Vitality, Neutron Star, Molecular Fission, Primed Continuity, Adaptation, Narrow Minded, and either Overextended or Constitution. That's all eight mod slots

Nova is a squishy frame because you need to build seven mod slots mods around it, and staying near enemies actively drains her tankiness -- they don't even have to shoot her, they just have to exist. Real tanks can do it with four, and staying near enemies increases their tankiness

[-CdG-Zilchy]

21 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I don't count these, ever. Basically every frame has those. Inaros is a tank because he uses stuff other than Adaptation.

But let's move onto the REAL meat:

300% instead of 400% gets you up to exactly 18 particles 90% reduction, but with no safety net. If any enemies are within range when you cast, you drop to 16 particles/80% before the animation is even finished. Which would be fine in a vacuum, if it wasn't for:

Remember that the OP is talking about Speedva/Neutral Nova. Which means Overextended. Which means +Range, even if you try to counteract it with Narrow Minded. Which means you're constantly losing orbs to enemies

OK this is more to my safety net style of play, but I add in Neutron Star augment that lets you recast Null Star in case the number of orbs drops too low. You might ask why I'm adding in safety nets, and the answer is the entire point of this discussion is to run a tank build

So what are we up to? Vitality, Neutron Star, Molecular Fission, Primed Continuity, Adaptation, Narrow Minded, and either Overextended or Constitution. That's all eight mod slots

Nova is a squishy frame because you need to build seven mod slots mods around it, and staying near enemies actively drains her tankiness -- they don't even have to shoot her, they just have to exist. Real tanks can do it with four, and staying near enemies increases their tankiness

A good answer with some good points made.

Ok yep let's ignore these factors even though they are really rather strong, shield gating in particular is just so good.

Ok I will admit that for the OP's build, which I would never use by the way because it's not very useful, then sure his dmg reduction is probably around say 70%. But don't forget he's also most likely not taking it past Sortie levels of enemies which are easily deflected. 

For me personally you've probably gathered from many other posts I've made I'm an energizer bunny in missions, I don't stay still often so I don't get hit often but more importantly I'm not near the enemy that often unless I'm killing them so Molecular fission augment tends to cancel out what I lose by killing them at the same time. I also run a tank build for things like Interception to high wave counts but I don't use the second augment, generally speaking my active playstyle, Adaptation and 1st ability are enough to keep me alive comfortably. 

My personal build doesn't actually use 300% reduction as I don't really require it, I think I have about 280? which means I don't have to slot Constitution and as previously stated, I don't use Neutron Star, the other mods you mention I do run. The main reason I don't see it as using all the mod slots for it is that Duration is nothing but good for Nova. We don't need many other stats besides that, power strength is governed by what you want to do with her 4th and is capped at 145% I think it is and 40% the other way(less with PD aura) so there's no focus needed on that. Likewise unless you are building for pure mobility on say a speedrunning nova(which is on 1 of my 3 Nova Primes) then having more Range negatively effects Nova as it makes the Null Star less effective and the gain of "slightly" more range between MP chain explosions is just not worth it. So that's Range, Power Strength both covered and both unnecessary which leaves Efficiency in a day and age of energy pads, Arcane Energize, Zenurik, Hunter Adrenaline and god only knows how many other ways of replenishing energy. 

So I'll concede the point about staying near enemies is bad, EXCEPT if you're using what I did on Steel Path which is Naramon focus and a Kronen Prime to simply 1 shot everything around, constantly refilling my stars with Molecular Fission but I don't think the mod slots argument holds water purely because you really only need Duration and a small amount of power strength on Nova in the first place and unlike yourself I'm running 5 mods, not 7 to achieve it. My safety net is my rapid movement playing style. I know Steel Path isn't a very good yard stick because it's far too easy but I did run all of it solo with Nova(mostly Speedva cos it was boring and I wanted it done with) with no survivability issues. Sure place her in say a 3 hour survival and things will get a little dicey but really that's when the other OP survivability methods we've ignored at the start of this discussion come into effect for any frame except the ones with infinite scaling survivability like Revenant, Octavia etc.

[Tiltskillet]

9 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

You need two augments, 400% duration, and Nat Talent in order for Null Star to actually defend you, otherwise you're rocking a whopping 45% damage reduction -- how awesome! -- that will degrade to 30% by the time the casting animation is over. Nova is a squishy frame

If squishy means "not a great frame for afking", then yeah.  Nova bad! So squish! 😉

In addition to everything Zilchy replied upthread, you can only lose one particle per second max, and that only as long as there are targets in range.   Slow and Neutral will both have negative range, so they especially don't have a problem.   None of them need Natural Talent, although some situational awareness is helpful, especially in Speedva's case.   And if anybody is using both Molecular Fission and Neutron Star...

 

[TARINunit9]

9 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

A good answer and one worthy of replying in full to.

Ok yep let's ignore these factors even though they are really rather strong, shield gating in particular is just so good.

Ok I will admit that for the OP's build, which I would never use by the way because it's not very useful, then sure his dmg reduction is probably around say 70%. But don't forget he's also most likely not taking it past Sortie levels of enemies which are easily deflected. 

For me personally you've probably gathered from many other posts I've made I'm an energizer bunny in missions, I don't stay still often so I don't get hit often but more importantly I'm not near the enemy that often unless I'm killing them so Molecular fission augment tends to cancel out what I lose by killing them at the same time. I also run a tank build for things like Interception to high wave counts but I don't use the second augment, generally speaking my active playstyle, Adaptation and 1st ability are enough to keep me alive comfortably. 

My personal build doesn't actually use 300% reduction as I don't really require it, I think I have about 280? which means I don't have to slot Constitution, the other mods you mention I do run. The main reason I don't see it as using all the mod slots for it is that Duration is nothing but good for Nova. We don't need many other stats besides that, power strength is governed by what you want to do with her 4th and is capped at 145% I think it is and 40% the other way(less with PD aura) so there's no focus needed on that. Likewise unless you are building for pure mobility on say a speedrunning nova(which is on 1 of my 3 Nova Primes) then having more Range negatively effects Nova as it makes the Null Star less effective and the gain of "slightly" more range between MP chain explosions is just not worth it. So that's Range, Power Strength both covered and both unnecessary which leaves Efficiency in a day and age of energy pads, Arcane Energize, Zenurik, Hunter Adrenaline and god only knows how many other ways of replenishing energy. 

So I'll concede the point about staying near enemies is bad, EXCEPT if you're using what I did on Steel Path which is Naramon focus and a Kronen Prime to simply 1 shot everything around, constantly refilling my stars with Molecular Fission but I don't think the mod slots argument holds water purely because you really only need Duration and a small amount of power strength on Nova in the first place. 

OK I'm glad we could drop the hostilities. In that spirit I'd like to rephrase "I don't count these" to "I don't consider Adaptation alone enough to call a frame 'tanky' because then we would just say EVERY frame is tanky". Obviously you're good for running it

Besides that I can agree with like 90% of your post here. There's only one potential problem, one that I re-discovered when checking my work:

Molecular Fission can't bring you above the first cast of Null Star. With your 280% Duration that caps you at 17 particles/85% reduction. But you say you had fun with it, so I'm not going to get high and mighty about it

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

And if anybody is using both Molecular Fission and Neutron Star...

If you wanna play higher risk higher reward, more power to you; I'm trying to dial back my hostilities. But in my world, tanks can recast their damage reduction early if they need it -- for the same reason Rhino players keep asking for Iron Shrapnel to be the base power instead of an augment

[-CdG-Zilchy]

12 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

OK I'm glad we could drop the hostilities. In that spirit I'd like to rephrase "I don't count these" to "I don't consider Adaptation alone enough to call a frame 'tanky' because then we would just say EVERY frame is tanky". Obviously you're good for running it

Besides that I can agree with like 90% of your post here. There's only one potential problem, one that I re-discovered when checking my work:

Molecular Fission can't bring you above the first cast of Null Star. With your 280% Duration that caps you at 17 particles/85% reduction. But you say you had fun with it, so I'm not going to get high and mighty about it

I wouldn't call it hostilities, I know you're a long time forum user and I tend to just react with some tongue in cheek when I see some sarcasm :P 

Yes you are absolutely correct on that point, you are capped at however many particles your duration can manage, god that would be exploitable otherwise seeing as like 250% duration will pretty much MP any room in the game. I honestly think that with the amount of survivability we have these days, let's be honest we've both played a long time, when operators were introduced(the 2nd phase not the floating avatar) the game became 10x easier not to die. By the time you need more than 85% reduction you're gonna get 1 shot regardless unless you use other means cos you're clearly by that stage a few hours in or say a hundred waves etc. 

Without looking at it I believe my build is P Cont, Umbral Vitality, Narrow Minded, Molecular Fission, Streamline, Augur Message, Adaptation and then the pwr str modifier(Umbral Intensify or Overextended. Oh and Enemy Radar for Aura. It's fun, have a go :)

[Oriviagene]

18 hours ago, (PSN)DrGrib said:

This will not be news to most people here but I've encountered a few people on Hydron and Helene accusing me of using a Slowva because I'm not using a Speedva. The current Google results for neutral Nova don't seem great to me, so I thought I would make a dedicated post.

It is possible to make a neutral Nova. That is, a Nova with 70% power strength that results in a Slow 0% value for Molecular Prime. Most builds I see use Nova Prime, which is currently vaulted and not easy to access for new players. So here is the basic, no forma build I use:
https://overframe.gg/build/109958/

The key is a fully ranked Overextended (which brings power strength down to 40% and Slow down to -30%) plus a fully ranked Intensify (which brings power strength back up to 70% and Slow up to 0%).

Why not just use Speedva? Sometimes Speedva makes the enemies too dangerous in later rounds of Hydron and Helene, especially for squishy frames. I'm talking about Heavy Gunners, Hyekka Masters and their Kavats, and of course Nox. You don't want those enemies sped up if you have a squishy frame. I have seen Speedvas get squishy frames who could have survived normal speed enemies killed (and ironically killed my own Speedva).

Why use Molecular Prime at all if you aren't going to change the speed? This is probably obvious but in case it isn't: it makes the enemies weaker and makes them explode. Which is very useful, especially if you or your teammates are leveling a weak weapon as many people on Hydron and Helene are.

already built mine long time ago, but yeah, nice build. useful for helping newbies too for me

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

19 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Hydron is a horrible way to level things and I recommend new players embrace other faster ways if they want to improve faster.

Give some examples. 

[DrivaMain]

19 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Also Hydron is a horrible way to level things and I recommend new players embrace other faster ways if they want to improve faster.

Hydron is no longer the viable affinity hot spots. Right now Gian Point and Steel Path Adaro holds the crown.

[DrivaMain]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Give some examples. 

Refer to my quote above. Gian Point for weapons and companions, Steel Path Adaro for Warframes

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

1 minute ago, DrivaMain said:

Hydron is no longer the viable affinity hot spots. Right now Gian Point and Steel Path Adaro holds the crown.

Personally, I like ESO for weapon leveling. Thanks for adding other examples. It gives people a reference. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Hydron is no longer the viable affinity hot spots. Right now Gian Point and Steel Path Adaro holds the crown.

Steel Path Adaro that's interesting. Why on earth would people do Steel Path version when the normal one is both easier and quicker?

[-CdG-Zilchy]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Give some examples. 

Yeh I was gonna say Adaro, normal version for frames using Helminth subsume, Railjack for companions, Adaro for melee or archguns, PT for Necramech and ESO for weapons also.

[DrivaMain]

3 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Steel Path Adaro that's interesting. Why on earth would people do Steel Path version when the normal one is both easier and quicker?

Higher enemy spawn rates, higher level means more affinity. A finisher hammer build is enough to one shot enemies there.

You also want Rest and Rage infused in your frame so doing it stealth will be a breeze.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

5 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Higher enemy spawn rates, higher level means more affinity. A finisher hammer build is enough to one shot enemies there.

You also want Rest and Rage infused in your frame so doing it stealth will be a breeze.

Oh of course I'm using rest and rage but I tend to find I can max out my frame no problem at all in about 3.5 minutes on normal Adaro with a buddy or 5ish mins with a rank 0 frame solo thanks to Helminth. Steel Path seems unnecessary is all and you also have the problem of losing your stealth bonus if an Acolyte spawns. When you consider the speed you can execute finishers with a hammer compared to the speed you can swing say a Guandao at a group of enemies and 1 shot them all, it seems a much slower method. I suppose if you weren't using a booster I could understand running Steel Path but I still feel like I could run 2 normal Adaro in the time it took for someone to do hammer finishers on all the enemies. And then there's the other issue where Steel Path has higher enemy amount required to finish the mission and once you've maxed your affinity you can just leave if you've killed enough. So you'd be stuck there for longer.

[DrivaMain]

3 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Steel Path seems unnecessary is all and you also have the problem of losing your stealth bonus if an Acolyte spawns.

The Acolytes arent that big of a deal. Thats why I bring my Mausolon. The arch weapon is enough to deal with them. Extra steel essence is also welcomed.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, DrivaMain said:

The Acolytes arent that big of a deal. Thats why I bring my Mausolon. The arch weapon is enough to deal with them. Extra steel essence is also welcomed.

What about the other points? :D

[vegetosayajin]

16 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

You need two augments, 400% duration, and Nat Talent in order for Null Star to actually defend you, otherwise you're rocking a whopping 45% damage reduction -- how awesome! -- that will degrade to 30% by the time the casting animation is over. Nova is a squishy frame

300% duration and you have space for 2 other defencive mods also + an augment if you wanted to.
She is one of the best tanks in this game, calling her squishy is just inability to play her.

[Berzerkules]

Neutral Nova best Nova. 

I've just quit building her for DR though. We can shield gate, it frees up mod/arcane slots not having to build for hp/armor or run an augment. 

Don't have to worry about hitting that magic 300% duration or keeping -range. It just feels more flexible once you get use to it. Just don't get 2 tapped.