Please buff Tigris Prime

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You can keep pulling arbitrary numbers out of thin air, but repetition proves nothing. The system was fixed, and everything aligned with all the bias and breakage cleared away.
Whether they deserve improving from where they now are (still using a consistent linear relationship of status chance) is another discussion entirely.

The only thing in the trash can is your ability to engage in a real debate, not trying to scream the opposition's facts down with sheer ignorance.

Nice projection but as said lie all you post, wont change the reality that 30% status 40+ status output shotgun(s) were nerfed by pellet count to 10% status sub 18 status output, thus removing them from the category of "status shotguns".
Respond when you actually go and learn basic grade to high school math of probability distribution and how to keep your calculation base consistent.

[TheLexiConArtist]

12 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Nice projection but as said lie all you post, wont change the reality that 30% status 40+ status output shotgun(s) were nerfed by pellet count to 10% status sub 18 status output, thus removing them from the category of "status shotguns".
Respond when you actually go and learn basic grade to high school math of probability distribution and how to keep your calculation base consistent.

Thanks for proving my point that you can't do anything but repeat arbitrary nonsense. Respond when you have something relevant to contribute, because I've ruined every last one of your arguments and your ad-hominems by using your own tools correctly to disprove you.

[Andele3025]

10 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Thanks for proving my point that you can't do anything but repeat arbitrary nonsense. Respond when you have something relevant to contribute, because I've ruined every last one of your arguments and your ad-hominems by using your own tools correctly to disprove you.

You're the one who consistently repeats literally nothing of value while ignoring the reality that status shotguns got nerfed.
Go on, try to prove how a 30% status shotgun with 40+ procs somehow performs now with 10% status and sub 20 procs better than it did before.
Oh right you cant without lying (or being extremely ignorant of basic grade to high school math).

[TheLexiConArtist]

Just now, Andele3025 said:

You're the one who consistently repeats literally nothing of value while ignoring the reality that status shotguns got nerfed.
Go on, try to prove how a 30% status shotgun with 40+ procs somehow performs now with 10% status and sub 20 procs better than it did before.
Oh right you cant without lying (or being extremely ignorant of basic grade to high school math).

Sorry, you failed. That's the same irrelevant and arbitrary-number nonsense.

Meanwhile, your challenge to me was only responding if I could do the maths, and since I've done all the varied maths and interpreted the results correctly while you have not:

I won.

Thanks for playing, it's been a blast. Come up with some new material and I'll see you again. Maybe a different subject to debate? This one's old and dusty by now.

[Andele3025]

30 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Sorry, you failed. That's the same irrelevant and arbitrary-number nonsense.

Meanwhile, your challenge to me was only responding if I could do the maths, and since I've done all the varied maths and interpreted the results correctly while you have not:

I won.

Thanks for playing, it's been a blast. Come up with some new material and I'll see you again. Maybe a different subject to debate? This one's old and dusty by now.

Nice projecting, but you not understanding basic math doesnt change the reality.

Like that shotguns were nerfed by pellet count thus stuff like the kohm nerfing itsel as it spools up and 30% status 40+ status output shotgun(s) are now trashed 10% status with sub 18 status output aka perform worse than even some crit rifles.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

On 2020-12-07 at 8:57 PM, Andele3025 said:

I get the idea of what you wanna say but it still doesnt, anyone with 7th grade and beyond math should know this (or anyone that knows of the gamblers fallact) since in real life math doesnt use pseudo random distribution/chance isnt scaled nor additive.

No matter if you group it or not the actual IRL result is the same because the only relevant variables are per event itself.

4 25% chances when treated as a single event merely changes how it might be written down from 4 events of 25% to one of 4 31~% chance of nothing, 42~% chance of the event happening once, 21~% chance of it happening twice, 4.7~% of it happening 3 times and 0.4~% chance of it happening all 4 times. Its exactly why 4 rad relics be it you doing solo or doing a full radshare arent 40%.

And writing chance down as 4x25% still isnt 100 because the sign after = wouldnt be another % but P(ⁿ).

 

A better way to explain is that they just don't add and you don't calculate the chance of happening directly, you actually need to find the chance of X to happen by finding the chance of NOT happening (otherwise, you would be able to go above 100% and that's not how probability works). 

 

With that said, 4 pellets with 25% chance to apply status would mean: 

1) 75% chance of not applying.

2) 56,25% chance of not applying.

3) 42,1875% chance of not applying.

4) 31,640625% chance of not applying (all for 4 pellets together). 

Full results = 68,36% (rounded up) chance of applying status effects. 

 

[MacIntoc]

23 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Boltor just happened to be a fairly 'average' status-oriented rifle. I picked a few so I wasn't judging everything by Chad Grakata up there being a purposeful bullet hose.

Ok, you want a proc rate oriented weapon ? Take the Baza Prime : 28% Critical Chance per pellet, 3x critical damage and 16.67 firerate.

1. Add 150% multishot : 1pellet*(1+1.5)=2.5
2. Add 150% Critical Chance : 0.28*(1+1.5)=70% critical chance per pellet
3. Calculate the pellet firerate  (firerate*multishot) : 16.67*2.5=41.675
4. Calculate the critical rate (pellet firerate*critical chance per pellet): 41.675*70%=29.1725 crit/s

We can now start to calculate the proc rate :

1. Add Hunter Munition (30% of critical rate) : 30%*29.1725=8.75175 procs/s
2. Since these are all critical slash, you can mathematicaly multiplie this value by the critical damage (critical damage*proc rate) : 3*8.75175=26.26525 proc/s
3. Add 120% critical damage mod : 26.26525*(1+1.2)=57,76155

We have not even touch the SC and the "Vigilant" critical mechanisme that we are almost at 60 proc/s (with Split Chamber, Vigilant Armement, Point Strike, Vital Sens and Hunter Munition; just add Serration and both 60/60 to get viral and you have a meta build). So let me laugth when you say that Boltor Prime is "a fairly 'average' status-oriented rifle" since any critical oriented auto-rifle blow it. Let me lautgh when you say that Twin Grakata proc rate is broken. Let me laught if >100% SC on shotgun is broken.

Using the old raw status chance per shot as new status chance per pellet is just fine. The only thing wich is broken is what you call "a fairly 'average' status-oriented rifle".

 

23 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

And everyone's modding preferences differ. Maybe someone doesn't want to slam all the fire rate on the pistols for ammo economy's sake, or because they want damage. It's cherry-picking. That's why we minimise the variables we actually use. Status chance wouldn't be relevant to judge 'modded' if the old system was properly linear, but it isn't, so we compare modded and not-modded both separately.

It's not a question of preference. It's a question of possibility. If mods permit it, you can't reject the argument because the conclusion doesn't fit your mind.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)XG1anBl4derX said:

Full results = 68,36% (rounded up) chance of applying status effects. 

Of applying one or more status effects. Chance of >1 procs when weighted for the extra quantity make the total status proc chance 1.00 procs per 4 bullets or 0.25 procs per bullet.  Don't feed the troll.

3 minutes ago, MacIntoc said:

Ok, you want a proc rate oriented weapon ? Take the Baza Prime : 28% Critical Chance per pellet, 3x critical damage and 16.67 firerate

I can tell by the end of line 1 you're not talking about status chance since you omitted it entirely, so cool story bro, but irrelevant.

[MacIntoc]

1 minute ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I can tell by the end of line 1 you're not talking about status chance since you omitted it entirely, so cool story bro, but irrelevant.

Rejecting an argument because it doesn't fit your mind doesn't get things done. SC is just a variable among many to calculate the proc rate. There is no reason to reject others variables.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, MacIntoc said:

Rejecting an argument because it doesn't fit your mind doesn't get things done. SC is just a variable among many to calculate the proc rate. There is no reason to reject others variables.

Comparing status chance to not status chance. Apples and oranges.

FWIW, I do actually think that Hunter Munitions is a problematic mod exactly because it lets crit weapons break their archetype (and with one of the best procs available), just like additive crit in Memeing Strike was bad for melees, letting non-crit melee operate outside of their design (especially since Blood Rush applied after that additive).

But it's still a completely different subject than comparing the different native proc potential of status chance weapons.

[MacIntoc]

17 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Comparing status chance to not status chance. Apples and oranges.

FWIW, I do actually think that Hunter Munitions is a problematic mod exactly because it lets crit weapons break their archetype (and with one of the best procs available), just like additive crit in Memeing Strike was bad for melees, letting non-crit melee operate outside of their design (especially since Blood Rush applied after that additive).

But it's still a completely different subject than comparing the different native proc potential of status chance weapons.

We were talking about why more that 40 proc/s on Tigris Prime is not broken. But... yes... i understand that reducing the debate to arguments that strictly confirm your mind makes you more comfortable. So... well... I'm just going to say that you're totally right and leave you with that. Congratulation.

[TheLexiConArtist]

10 minutes ago, MacIntoc said:

We were talking about why more that 40 proc/s on Tigris Prime is not broken. But... yes... i understand that reducing the debate to arguments that strictly confirm your mind makes you more comfortable. So... well... I'm just going to say that you're totally right and leave you with that. Congratulation.

Well, we're talking about native status potential of shotguns being absurdly higher than native status of other weapons. Add more variables and completely different mechanics and you're just muddying the waters.

If you'll indulge a bit of analogy here:

It's a bit like saying the Bramma before the whole mess of Nerf™-explosives, or the Tonkor back at its release, being massively better damage performance than other weapon categories means other weapon categories should have been increased to match the release Bramma/Tonkor.. and not changing the other explosive weapons - which aren't caught in that 'other categories' definition - which were performing not only below the massive outliers, but broadly even below the other weapon types.

There's both an intra-categorical problem (comparative native status in case of current discussion, comparative damage potential of explosives in the analogy) and an inter-categorical problem (HM proc stacking on both status and not-status weapons with viable crit in the current discussion, release Tonkor/Bramma being over the curve of everything in the analogy).

They're both valid discussions to have, but the existence of the inter-category issue does not make the intra-category issue cease to exist.

[Lutesque]

Don't you guys get tired ? 

Knock it off !!! 😰

[WOWESOMUCHDOGE]

I just came back to warframe, what shotties are good now