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I love Warframe - Please stop merging other games with Warframe.


ThunderLlama

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I love Warframe because it is everything first-person shooters and platformers are not.  You get to be a fast super powered character with your choice of abilities, guns and melee weapons, you don't have to worry about getting one shot like so many other fps games nor is your success based on your platforming ability.

But as time goes on, it seems like more and more other games were merged with one of my favorite games.

First there was Archwing -where I have to play a nausea-inducing flight simulator.  I don't want to play a flight simulator, I want to play Warframe.  There's claims that I don't have to play Archwing if I don't want to, but one Warframe is locked behind it, one Archwing boss drops Warframe goodies, and I keep getting quests for the new railjack.

Then there was operator form.  Suddenly, instead of a fast super-powered character with tons of choices of weapons, I'm a slow, weak character who is usually one-shot, doesn't get a melee weapon, and has only a few options for very weak guns....if they can call them that.  And I'm forced to play this silly Hitman game in order to unlock stuff for Warframe.

Then riven mods came about, which were super cool, but to unlock them I suddenly have to do specific platform-like challenges like I'm playing Tomb Raider.  I don't want to play Tomb Raider, I want to play Warframe.

Then the nightwave came around, and instead of being a fast Warframe fighting epic battles, I'm a slow cripple looking around to find items that are half glitched into the wall.  I don't want to play Super Slow Detective Man, I want to play Warframe.  Then the boss comes and I finally get to play Warframe except nope - you don't get any abilities or any guns and we won't really explain how to fight him.

Then came Mechs.  I love Mechs that you can fully customize with dozens of weapons in hundreds of configurations, choosing from dozens of mechs, each with different speeds and pro's and con's - deciding whether you want jump jets or more armor or ECM suites or.....wait....no....that's Mechwarrior.  I don't want to play clunky, slow, awkward Mechs...I'd rather play Mechwarrior.

Then I fight more and more battles where bosses and mini bosses are immune to my abilities, or the abilities and status effects of my guns.  I don't want to play 50% features Warframe, I want to play full Warframe.  It's a glitch that my abilities aren't working, right?  No?  It's programmed that way?  Did someone sneak code in to sabotage the game?  No?  It was on purpose?  I'm confused.

I love Warframe.  Please give me more Warframe.  Please stop merging these other games with Warframe and forcing me to play them.

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6 minutes ago, ThunderLlama said:

I love Warframe.  Please give me more Warframe.  Please stop merging these other games with Warframe and forcing me to play them.

You love your idea of Warframe. This is what Warframe really is. New stuff gets added, not everyone likes it. Everything you say is "taken from other games" is just simply the dev team adding what they want to - it is their game, this is Warframe.

 

If you don't like bits your can always post useful feedback on specific issues.

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Something about your post resonates with me. I don't even mind all these additions, I don't think they harm the game, and they can be fun. But there is one simple truth within your observation:

They never really improve on the core of the game. The stuff that got us to play Warframe in the first place. I'd much prefer a new game mode, or even composite game modes, for the regular game to Railjack. I'd much prefer a couple new spy vaults over a new Mech.

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Arbitration, Disruption, Steel Path, Plains, Fortuna, Deimos, Kuva Liches, even the first two nightwave's unique content... all of these are using Warframe's core gameplay loop almost exclusively. Maybe with an Archwing for fast travel here, or a boss fight there that requires other systems. All of these have been cited as somehow unsatisfying. They don't seem to scratch the itch people seem to want it to. This is for a pretty important reason.

Warframe's core loop is broken. We have tons of options, sure, the vast majority of which are, in fact, perfectly viable. But the fact remains simplistic, linear, repetitive strategies that leverage map-wide damage or crowd control, with energy costs that can be recouped swiftly and with almost no real effort or near-complete personal defence with no cost to offense. The meaningful choices that make games interesting to play (be that in moment-to-moment action or the RPG side of things in the Arsenal) have been steadily culled by power creep, and every attempt or murmuring of addressing it gets met by harsh criticism. Even trying to staunch the bleeding by adding mechanics that, in practice, just remove mechanics gets (rightfully) criticised.

 

DE is presented with a rather unpleasant list of decisions.

Option A: Continue making content that will literally be dead on arrival because it's been power crept and/or resource stockpiled to oblivion.

Option B: Make content that uses mechanics that restrict other mechanics (even ones that aren't instances of blatant power creep) and aren't fun but still technically uses the core systems.

Option C: Make content that side-steps the core system and and risk alienating and further dividing a divided audience, as well as probably not being fully baked because it didn't have a good half-decade's worth of active development and community involvement to craft it.

Option D: Bite the bullet, start reworking the most problematic elements, accepting that this will hugely nerf the playerbase and changing things that have been around since the game's earliest days, which also risks alienating and dividing the Audience, to a great degree more but hugely more rewarding should it pay off in terms of design space and core gameplay.

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DE allowed our damage scaling to reach ridiculous levels and to compensate it, made bosses and certain enemies status immune, giving them damage caps, invincibility phases, Damage Reduction based on DPS or even take away our gear to prevent us from trivializing combat. DE thinks like they have to introduce new toys (Mechs, Railjack) because they let engaging combat die.

The next damage rework needs to flatten player damage and remove all the immunity/invulnerability nonsense. 

It may even solve the complaints about mandatory mods like Serration.

Having Crit be additive with base damage, where a 4.0x crit multiplier just gives 400% base damage additive with Serration.

Having Viral be additive with base damage where, 1st proc increases subsequent damage to health by 100% additive with Serration.

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come on the floor. everyone has their own opinion and experience.
i think that warframe implemented the idea "kill mobs for loot" best. but that's just my opinion and has nothing to do with reality.

anyone who claims something like OP can only be wrong. and prescribing something to others is an epic fail!

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24 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Arbitration, Disruption, Steel Path, Plains, Fortuna, Deimos, Kuva Liches, even the first two nightwave's unique content... all of these are using Warframe's core gameplay loop almost exclusively. Maybe with an Archwing for fast travel here, or a boss fight there that requires other systems. All of these have been cited as somehow unsatisfying. They don't seem to scratch the itch people seem to want it to. This is for a pretty important reason.

Warframe's core loop is broken. We have tons of options, sure, the vast majority of which are, in fact, perfectly viable. But the fact remains simplistic, linear, repetitive strategies that leverage map-wide damage or crowd control, with energy costs that can be recouped swiftly and with almost no real effort or near-complete personal defence with no cost to offense. The meaningful choices that make games interesting to play (be that in moment-to-moment action or the RPG side of things in the Arsenal) have been steadily culled by power creep, and every attempt or murmuring of addressing it gets met by harsh criticism. Even trying to staunch the bleeding by adding mechanics that, in practice, just remove mechanics gets (rightfully) criticised.

 

DE is presented with a rather unpleasant list of decisions.

Option A: Continue making content that will literally be dead on arrival because it's been power crept and/or resource stockpiled to oblivion.

Option B: Make content that uses mechanics that restrict other mechanics (even ones that aren't instances of blatant power creep) and aren't fun but still technically uses the core systems.

Option C: Make content that side-steps the core system and and risk alienating and further dividing a divided audience, as well as probably not being fully baked because it didn't have a good half-decade's worth of active development and community involvement to craft it.

Option D: Bite the bullet, start reworking the most problematic elements, accepting that this will hugely nerf the playerbase and changing things that have been around since the game's earliest days, which also risks alienating and dividing the Audience, to a great degree more but hugely more rewarding should it pay off in terms of design space and core gameplay.

Option D: Bite the Bullet

I'm pretty sure most of those types of players left with the Status Rework earlier this year.

DE already nerfed Corrosive with a cap. At Sortie level, 6000 armor translates into roughly 95% Damage Reduction or a 20x health multiplier. Old Corrosive could strip this off and grant you 20x effective damage. New Corrosive can only strip 80%, leaving 1200 armor at 80% Damage Reduction, granting a mere 4x effective damage against a neutral enemy (Alloy). Taking account the Ferrite weakness which mitigates armor and boosts damage by 75%, Corrosive only deals 17.5x Neutral at 10 stacks which is still less than 20x, yet you had a loud minority of players declaring that the "nerf" was actually a "buff" because the 75% bonus wasn't lost through "over-stripping".

Not to mention what they did to Gas.

The changes to armor scaling only really changed things for endurance runs. A lot of sub level 100 enemies (especially Alloy armored) feel tankier than before.

At the end of the day, most people are casual. Most players turn there noses at the Primed Bane mods because they see 55% is less than 165% without looking up the underlying math that's posted on the wiki which they can't be blamed for. DE needs to revamp their tutorials and wording. DE introduces so much new content aimed at new players, yet most new players will never reach that point anyways without consulting a 3rd party for information. 

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1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Arbitration, Disruption, Steel Path, Plains, Fortuna, Deimos, Kuva Liches, even the first two nightwave's unique content... all of these are using Warframe's core gameplay loop almost exclusively. Maybe with an Archwing for fast travel here, or a boss fight there that requires other systems. All of these have been cited as somehow unsatisfying.

Arbitrations were fine though? People like Disruption too. Steel Path was "basic missions and no rewards, but enemies have very high armor" - obviously not satisfying. Nightwave would actually be great if it lasted 3 months each, not 3 years.

The basic mission types are just not good enough anymore.

  • "Kill ~130 enemies, we only spawn a few at once so you don't finish the mission too fast." Sucks.
  • "Stand in the middle of the map and kill weak enemies we drip-feed you for ~6 minutes." Sucks.
  • "Just kill stuff for 5 minutes." Sucks.
  • "Do the spy vault you already know like the back of your pocket 3 times, again". Sucks

To add insult to injury, these basic missions also offer absolutely no reward. As was showcased with the Steel Path.

Of note is also, that when there actually is something worth getting in missions, it usually has a 0.2% drop chance. So you'll have to do them hundreds of times in succession. Even good missions would overstay their welcome at some point, and they mostly aren't good to begin with.

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5 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Arbitrations were fine though? People like Disruption too.

Never has been, but not mechanically speaking.

Community is fragmented. There are too many kinds of people with content existing for said people. If you understand what I mean, there is no "Majority" in warframe. Only a series of vocal minorities that remains silent until affected.

People didn't like arbitration for having 1 life. People didn't like disruption because it involved killing a tanky unit. At the same time, people did liked arbitration for being one life, and liked the change of pacing in Disruption.

11 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

"Kill ~130 enemies, we only spawn a few at once so you don't finish the mission too fast." Sucks.

In all fairness, spawning all 130 enemies at once may not be a good idea.

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2 minutes ago, Aadi880 said:

In all fairness, spawning all 130 enemies at once may not be a good idea.

Well, the current way enemy spawning is handled plain sucks. The game completely refuses to create new enemies once it has spawned a few, it'll just start teleporting them around if you move through the level.

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1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

"Do the spy vault you already know like the back of your pocket 3 times, again". Sucks

Personally wont say spy sucks compared to the other 3 mentioned, as the other 3 are way more generalized. Exterminates, Survivals and Defense are all quite similar due to player stats.(If you oneshot enemies there is no difference between any of them) Spy vaults are at least mechanically different from each other, but adding more spy vaults is always better, more variety can definitely decrease them repeating as often.

Definitely not saying the other 3 suck, just think they are less able to feel different mission to mission.

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10 minutes ago, PhiThagRaid said:

adding more spy vaults is always better, more variety can definitely decrease them repeating as often.

They should regularly hold contests for the best player created vaults if they can't make new ones themselves. Or at least randomize parts. What is even the point if you already know where everything is?

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6 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

They should regularly hold contests for the best player created vaults if they can't make new ones themselves. Or at least randomize parts. What is even the point if you already know where everything is?

Technically the low-level vaults have randomized parts. Once you reach the high-level vaults though, every laser and camera is on and every vent is shut, leaving you with only one path to follow. Much as I love the Kuva Fortress, its vaults suffer the hardest from this. I'd love to see some multi-tile Spy vaults, make the thing an actual stealth mission rather than a sprint to 3 individual stealth missions.

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1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

They should regularly hold contests for the best player created vaults if they can't make new ones themselves. Or at least randomize parts. What is even the point if you already know where everything is?

On the one hand, getting good and knowing the route is very rewarding, but I do agree. At the very least, more variants of existing spy tiles to shake up what exactly the route is.

53 minutes ago, Iamabearlulz said:

I'd love to see some multi-tile Spy vaults, make the thing an actual stealth mission rather than a sprint to 3 individual stealth missions.

Invasions typically only have one vault, and if DE could tune the AI they could really make something cool with it. It'd probably have to be a part of 'Invasions 2.0' to some degree, but having to sneak through an active combat zone without the side you're opposing spotting you and infiltrate a specialised vault. Maybe to grab data, or some valuable doodad you then need to make a rush to extraction with.

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So, going down the list, we have:

  1. Warframes.
  2. Warframe-attaching travel vehicles.
    • While raw Archwing missions lack the frame component, we see elsewhere the mixture of the two
    • In open zones, the wings even offer toolset expansions to use alongside current frame of choice. No defense ability for a bounty that needs it? Call in the Amesha.
  3. Warframe 'pilots'.
    • Provide benefits to their Warframes.
    • Only became manual controlled later.
    • Not necessary to manually control for most purposes, letting them stay in a broadly Frame-supportive role.
  4. Proving varied competence in Warframe to unlock the bleeding-edge of modding.
    • There's maybe 3 that are any sort of 'difficult'.. until you have a strategy down.
  5. Half an hour or less, in five instances over the course of a year, to do some investigative side-story discovery of Warframe universe lore.
    • No other games have off-brand sidequests or activities for extra goodies. There's absolutely not a plants versus zombies homage in WoW or anything like that.
  6. Mechs. We finally get to a legitimate citation now, because this isn't "Warframes with a vehicle", it's 'Warframe pilot in a not-Warframe vehicle'.
    • But at the moment you haven't got to use them exclusively (intro quest notwithstanding), and in fact can't if they get blown up.
    • The upcoming event with Lavos' release may present a Mech-sclusive mission, as DE wants to test them being in normal mission tilesets.
    • Mechs being usable alongside Frames is like Archwings being used alongside Frames in open-zones. Extra tools to round out a kit, should you need or desire it.
    • Criticising the diversity of mechs right now is like looking back at the launch of Warframe and complaining because there weren't 45 options like there are now.
  7. A fair complaint but it is borne out of necessity.
    • The more egregious outliers - selective status immunities for no provided reason, excessive diminished-return caps, arbitrary ability immunities and nullifier bubbles being a big middle finger to everything at once - should be brought in line. But having things like bosses with reduced proc stacking caps is generally reasonable. Reducing the hardest control to softer forms for a boss-like is reasonable.
    • There are frames with certain ability reliances who can be inequally oppressed - such as squishy stealth frames when a boss ignores stealth outright. This is a problem. Each should be able to leverage their skillset, even if not the optimal choice for the job, they should be capable of contributing and functioning.
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On 2020-12-05 at 9:56 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The operator is the best part of warframe. Sorry, it's here to stay. 

I also love everything else warframe is doing. 

Maybe try to stop living in the past and progress with life and society, it's normal :D

I love the idea of the operator, I just feel like its implementation is counter to Warframe's strength - choice.

It feels like you're using your least favorite Warframe, with no mods, only two abilities, and a dragon key equipped.

Good points from some posters about lack of constructive feedback.  Here's my suggestion - give us real choice in operator mode.  Over the next year, give us a dozen different operator set-ups, with the odd collection of operator abilities re-bound to the warfare ability buttons, and give us mod slots for each set-up.

Some ideas could be:

1) The tank operator.  Passive: taking damage while in the warframe provides overshields or ironskin in operator form, and taking damage in operator form provides overshields or ironskin when you return to your warframe.  Abilities: Revolving around melee weapons.

2) The support operator.  Abilities: heal and buff other operators and warframes.

3) The parkour operator.  Passive: Can double-jump and move like a warframe.  Abilities are sniper-like with damage bonus from being far from enemies.

4) The combat operator.  Passive: no stun or delay when switching between warframe and operator.  Abilities switch between warframe weapons, which are usable by operator.

5) The control operator.  Abilities: take control of an enemy.  You are immune to damage until that enemy dies.

Give us a situation where when we're fighting a lvl 100 Kuva guardians we choose operator mode because we want to, not because we have to.

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Yeah, no, this is a live service which has to expand a ton of features to stay relevant for years, the isolated experience the OP suggests is a dead game that shuts down in two years, already if they hadn't grown so far. 

These are the full features of a sprawling game, even halo had ground and air vehicles, and it would have everything Warframe has to offer too if it was a live service. Your fantasizing a delusion if you think a game that caters to such a narrow audience even survives. 

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16 minutes ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

I'm fine with them stealing from other games, however, stealing implies we get the entire product. Only copying 1/4 of the actual feature it's stolen from (liches for example, we all know where it's from, thanks to Steve constantly mentioning it) is basically what I absolutely dislike. Same with the other things.

Not only that, but it's often badly implemented, forcefully shoehorned in and with loose ends all over the place. The liches are a classic example of DE stealing from getting inspired by other games, and winds up just bolting on a half-baked feature and just leaving it there after patching up the worst of the screw-ups. At least the liches aren't progress essential, besides a few Nightwave challenges, but we're seeing more and more of these coobled together features and game modes playing a larger part in progression, and those modes are VERY varied in how fun they are for the player. And here is something from someone, who knows a thing or two about behaviourism and game theory: When you start forcing players to repeatedly do things they don't experience as fun, you increase the burn-out rate and ultimately reduce player retention.

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With that mindset Warframe would still be exactly how it was at launch.

The Warframe you love is the result of them adding dozens of new features, some borrowed from other games over many years. Who are you to say when they should stop evolving the game, just because you're content with where it is at any given time in its evolution?

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On 2020-12-05 at 8:28 AM, Loza03 said:

Arbitration, Disruption, Steel Path, Plains, Fortuna, Deimos, Kuva Liches, even the first two nightwave's unique content... all of these are using Warframe's core gameplay loop almost exclusively. Maybe with an Archwing for fast travel here, or a boss fight there that requires other systems. All of these have been cited as somehow unsatisfying. They don't seem to scratch the itch people seem to want it to. This is for a pretty important reason.

Warframe's core loop is broken. We have tons of options, sure, the vast majority of which are, in fact, perfectly viable. But the fact remains simplistic, linear, repetitive strategies that leverage map-wide damage or crowd control, with energy costs that can be recouped swiftly and with almost no real effort or near-complete personal defence with no cost to offense. The meaningful choices that make games interesting to play (be that in moment-to-moment action or the RPG side of things in the Arsenal) have been steadily culled by power creep, and every attempt or murmuring of addressing it gets met by harsh criticism. Even trying to staunch the bleeding by adding mechanics that, in practice, just remove mechanics gets (rightfully) criticised.

 

DE is presented with a rather unpleasant list of decisions.

Option A: Continue making content that will literally be dead on arrival because it's been power crept and/or resource stockpiled to oblivion.

Option B: Make content that uses mechanics that restrict other mechanics (even ones that aren't instances of blatant power creep) and aren't fun but still technically uses the core systems.

Option C: Make content that side-steps the core system and and risk alienating and further dividing a divided audience, as well as probably not being fully baked because it didn't have a good half-decade's worth of active development and community involvement to craft it.

Option D: Bite the bullet, start reworking the most problematic elements, accepting that this will hugely nerf the playerbase and changing things that have been around since the game's earliest days, which also risks alienating and dividing the Audience, to a great degree more but hugely more rewarding should it pay off in terms of design space and core gameplay.

Fully agree and I for one am willing to throw the dice with the last option. Anything else just feels like a bandaid over a much bigger problem. The core systems, mechanics and even gameplay need to be refined. There's been a lot of DE listening to players over the years and doing fan service which in some cases only resulted in temporary satisfaction and long term challenges that they are now faced with. I understand they wanted to make people happy but at the same time they didn't have a clear vision for certain things and that's left us where we are now. If nerfs/revisions to the original mechanics are what's needed for the game to adapt to the new content in a way that makes it feel fun and enjoyable - the way it felt when you first heard about this awesome game about space ninjas - then that's what needs to be done.

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