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Why is it difficult to get things it feels the Community wants?


Bartholimewthorn

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Warning ahead of time this is a bit of a rant. I have one honest question about how Warframe is designed and updates: Why does it feel like we are at war with the developers? Whenever there is something released that a large part of the community does not like or would like changes made too, it feels like we have to protest and complain for weeks to even get acknowledged, then when it is changed it feels like an attempt at the bare minimum or a slap in the face. For example in the isolation vaults fighting the Necromechs feels completely toxic by design. It only takes damage in one place, the damage it takes is highly reduced, and it suddenly reflects all damage it takes back at you. The only known way to stop this reflection is by killing yourself. The changes did nothing, the fight is somehow harder than before, its invulnerable just as much and the hitbox is off. Even worse "Optimized the path of Otak/Lohk to be more consistent. So now every escort is 3X as long and requires me to run a lap around a now bigger vault. He moves faster but is squishier, he doesn't seem to be moving any faster, but he certainly is nearly getting one shot by the artillery from across the chasms now. Vacuum on necromechs but its only 6m which is shorter than the lowest rank of the mod vacuum for sentinels, which is 6.5m. It feels like your acknowledging we don't like something, then changing it so little its like an insult, and its been repetitive . There is also the double standard of not wanting long survival or other missions to exist, but demanding the completion of 3 isolation vaults to just start attempting to get a weapon. I've played this game for over 5 years, and I just want to know: why does it feel like war with the dev's to make changes to the game that it seems everyone in the community wants? Or am I just not hearing what the community actually wants?

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hace 37 minutos, Bartholimewthorn dijo:

Why does it feel like we are at war with the developers? Whenever there is something released that a large part of the community does not like or would like changes made too, it feels like we have to protest and complain for weeks to even get acknowledged, then when it is changed it feels like an attempt at the bare minimum or a slap in the face.

This, we've been through one of the laziest years in terms of "content" (would say 2019 was the laziest but at least we got two seasons of nightwave) and it's ok you know I understand that major projects like the New War was delayed because the god damn virus and, if you ask me, we don't need new content we need a rework/update of the entire game, every player knows that the game looks more like a beta that is completed bit by bit every update instead of an actual game that expands further and beyond with the updates, knows that a lot of the base game needs to be revisited at least.

Still waiting for fixing geometry clipping through the map, still waiting for the fix to the textures of a LOT of enemies, still waiting for DE to make something about the unscannable J-3 Golem, still waiting for DE to make something about the Bailiff and Jackal eximus units, still waiting for DE to fix Stalker still attacking when defeated, fix for weird hitpoints, fix for Nekros idle animations middle finger, updating the codex, fix for Vay Molta's dog days noggle, fix for the Invasion's menu, fix for clipping with the syandanas, fix for Vauban's Fasic helm, heck even waiting for a Railjack fix.

At this point it seems that DE cares more for the fanart than the actual game, keeps saying "For the new players" the new players won't stay for too long if the base game is such a mess and if the content that is supposed to be an incentive to play the game is actually an incentive to stop playing.

 

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Three main reasons:

1: Divided community. Simply put, literally everything DE does, there's some loud part of the community that hates it. And I'm well aware I'm included in that statement, guilty as charged. Literally. Everything. Consider attempting to find response threads for post-release changes to items if you can. You'll find people complaining about how releasing stuff too weak to be safe makes a 'bad first impression' and kills hype for new content. Then a little down the line you'll see Catchmoon and Bramma threads by (usually) a different group of people claiming DE was intentionally releasing them too strong to milk them for the plat. There was also a sentiment around this time that if they really cared about the game they'd know how strong something really was before release, or that they should ask the community, since we'd be able to see the broken stuff in advance. And then you've got Helminth where DE announced what they were going to do, got feedback, and changed it before release to try get the best of both worlds... and got hate for it from yet another group of people. Rarely the same people each time, but yeah.  Can't please everyone. Oftentimes the Forums just reflect what people dislike at the time, not necessarily what people want.

2: Loud. Whilst of course everyone up and stopping feedback and suggestions would be just as bad of an idea, the sheer scale of stuff the community wants (partly spurred on by point 1) makes it surprisingly hard to get a read on what the community wants with any specificity.

3: ... Variable quality. If we're being honest, most people here are not game designers. Even those interested in game design, such as yours truly, likely have little to no experience. So a reasonable large chunk of the ideas range from the reasonable, to the over ambitious, to, well... some didn't quite have enough thought put into them, to be nice.

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I think you have to accept that the game is designed not only for your personal amusement.

In fact, I observed DE gives whinging more merit than it deserves to the the point of decline from their original ideas

  • Look what happened to Railjack, it is now so easy, a pilot will curse you if you attempt to use any side turrets or energy at all because anyone can solo missions now, not like the coop mode it was intended to be
  • the Liches are reduced to annoyance and whatever they offer became cheap market items you rather buy than hunt for your self. DE now indirectly forces you to engage with them through night wave missions if you want to gain points
  • For years, Eidolons was loathed by the community  that DE initially reduced the grind for resources in Cetus. When that failed, they eventually made a cop out path in Scarlet Spear just so everyone can get Arcanes originally offered only in Tridolon hunt drops. Now, it is less likely you will find a competent Tridolon group going in blind with randoms 
  • Now the Iso vault, idk, it is hard to die against the nerfed mechs already. It will be long if you don't skip Loid en route to the drops that you need. I always went in with randoms and a few agreements to what the goal is at the start usually is enough to satisfy each players wants. Groups usually just get bored repeating Arcana vaults ad infinitum when a clear shortcut to any of them is made
  • Make no mistake, I believe a one time access to any of the Arcana vaults is enough for any of us to access any of them straight from Mother at Necralisk. But you have to do things with what you have atm. If i had to guess, DE is funneling every player on the same route because there is currently poor participation among players when it comes to Iso vaults

War with the devs you say? In my eyes, they never won any battle with the player base so far

 

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2 hours ago, Bartholimewthorn said:

Whenever there is something released that a large part of the community does not like or would like changes made too

I doubt it is genuinely a large part of the community. I would say the vast majority of the community doesn't give their feedback on the issue. DE simply cannot listen to the community, because everyone disagrees with each other. We don't know what is best for the game, we just know what we believe would be fun.

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Everyone is entitled to their opinions. This not the warframe community back in 2016 where most of the player demand are the same. The community has grown so large and diverse you have to prioritize who gets content first. Currently the casual majority are first class players leaving hardcores back in the dust.

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because one half of the cummunity just wants more power creep and everything to be broken while the other wants the exact opposite 

also DE has no idea what they want to do(hence new war soonTM and duviry was shown a long time ago while propably nothing is done about it) 

and they taking the wasier route now shown with xaku, no more broken stuff on realse we can buff it later, for now anyway.

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5 hours ago, Loza03 said:

3: ... Variable quality. If we're being honest, most people here are not game designers. Even those interested in game design, such as yours truly, likely have little to no experience. So a reasonable large chunk of the ideas range from the reasonable, to the over ambitious, to, well... some didn't quite have enough thought put into them, to be nice.

Not to be that guy but this statement sums up DE pretty well. They've proven time and time again that they have no idea what they are doing and only sometimes stumble onto something semi decent which gets ruined later on by some change.

The DE from 2016 has long since disappeared. The current DE only cares about seeing player numbers and inflates the grind thinking that will make people stick around. Jokes on them.

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9 hours ago, JazaJ said:

Not to be that guy but this statement sums up DE pretty well. They've proven time and time again that they have no idea what they are doing and only sometimes stumble onto something semi decent which gets ruined later on by some change.

The DE from 2016 has long since disappeared. The current DE only cares about seeing player numbers and inflates the grind thinking that will make people stick around. Jokes on them.

This is a lie and why I think long term players need to step off. 

From an overview, DE has placed very smart and long term elements into the game that, had they listened to the "usual suspects of youtubers", would've stopped the super solid foundation we currently have. Despite some of those people's best negative campaign efforts, the game has steadily progressed with a strong playerbase, regardless of useless talking points.

All of the open worlds, Railjack and lore elements have created an endless rotation of progression that can even use the old starchart as new content (like Railjack does...a hint at closing that content island gap people discuss). 

A unified, focused DE knows what it's doing and we, the counterproductive, constantly whining, indecisive and unfocused playerbase, VERY CLEARLY, do not. That's not to say we don't have great ideas and discussions. Far from it. It does, however, say that we are currently way to varied (and agenda biased) to be as helpful as we truly can be.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb GEN-Son_17:

From an overview, DE has placed very smart and long term elements into the game that, had they listened to the "usual suspects of youtubers", would've stopped the super solid foundation we currently have. Despite some of those people's best negative campaign efforts, the game has steadily progressed with a strong playerbase, regardless of useless talking points.

giphy.gif

https://steamcharts.com/app/230410#All

compare june 2017 with now. (I know it's only steam)

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I'm not arguing any specific points as I didn't read that annoyingly inversed text so this is a hot take off the thread title and first sentence or two only, but just remember that people are more likely to complain about something they don't like then they are to speak up about something they like or are neutral about. So the amounts of visible complaints about anything, anywhere in the world are always a disproportional amount of people's opinions on things.

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2 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

giphy.gif

https://steamcharts.com/app/230410#All

compare june 2017 with now. (I know it's only steam)

You're correct...it's only steam. Think a little more like a business owner though:

Warframe is now on PS5. Why invest in a project expansion that is "failing"? You don't, hence Warframe is now on next gen consoles at the end of 2020 into 2021.

With the steam talking point eliminated, let's look at the youtubers:

 The endgamer, Rio, doesn't play the game but still feels entitled to voice his opinions about content he doesn't play. He stopped at Fortuna. He's the salty politician of the youtubers.

Mogamu is leeching for views and it shows. Negative media is attractive media and we've learned that very well in America. He also does not play anymore but still feels compelled to voice his entitled opinion.

Tact Potato (love the Tater) spoils the game for everyone WAY too quickly. Also, with no disclaimer that he's speaking about weapon/frame performance at the very highest level, he often makes negative comments about items that Gring Hard Squad often proves otherwise.

Brozime hates anything that isn't big damage numbers but also complains about the game being to easy. He needs to choose his direction and stick with it.

iFlynn has just played too long and there's no way DE can heal burnout of that level.

I'm sure you get the pattern. All of these guys have played for 1000s of hours. They should not be the ones to voice there opinion on the state of the game. Not because they're not qualified but because they've played for extremely far too long and have mastered the mechanics, become too familiar with clichés and are fat too obsorbed into their own political agendas. The "DE sucks now" and "the white knights and noobs are ruining the game" vet mentality should NEVER be the driving force of criticism simply because they had their fun, jaw dropping experience and addicted love affair from hour 1 to hour 1000+. Normalcy is a problem at that point.

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On 2020-12-05 at 5:37 PM, Bartholimewthorn said:

Warning ahead of time this is a bit of a rant. I have one honest question about how Warframe is designed and updates: Why does it feel like we are at war with the developers?

Because this is a "Free to Play"/"Pay to Skip Grind" game.

that means there is an inherent motivation for the Developers to hold back and maintain sucky/grindy aspects to the game, to motivate players to Pay up and skip them.

They can't just make a perfect enjoyable Player Experience, because they'd go broke for lack of monetization.

 

IE. it feels that way because, we actually are at war with the developers; Free to Play / Pay to Skip is actually a toxic relationship.

see also 'games as a service' business model

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8 hours ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

ou're correct...it's only steam. Think a little more like a business owner though:

Warframe is now on PS5. Why invest in a project expansion that is "failing"? You don't, hence Warframe is now on next gen consoles at the end of 2020 into 2021.

With the steam talking point eliminated, let's look at the youtubers:

 The endgamer, Rio, doesn't play the game but still feels entitled to voice his opinions about content he doesn't play. He stopped at Fortuna. He's the salty politician of the youtubers.

Mogamu is leeching for views and it shows. Negative media is attractive media and we've learned that very well in America. He also does not play anymore but still feels compelled to voice his entitled opinion.

Tact Potato (love the Tater) spoils the game for everyone WAY too quickly. Also, with no disclaimer that he's speaking about weapon/frame performance at the very highest level, he often makes negative comments about items that Gring Hard Squad often proves otherwise.

Brozime hates anything that isn't big damage numbers but also complains about the game being to easy. He needs to choose his direction and stick with it.

iFlynn has just played too long and there's no way DE can heal burnout of that level.

I'm sure you get the pattern. All of these guys have played for 1000s of hours. They should not be the ones to voice there opinion on the state of the game. Not because they're not qualified but because they've played for extremely far too long and have mastered the mechanics, become too familiar with clichés and are fat too obsorbed into their own political agendas. The "DE sucks now" and "the white knights and noobs are ruining the game" vet mentality should NEVER be the driving force of criticism simply because they had their fun, jaw dropping experience and addicted love affair from hour 1 to hour 1000+. Normalcy is a problem at that point.

Let's not forget these people have an extremely loyal gathering of "yes players", If you look at Brozime and Mogamu's comment section it's a toxic wasteland. Everytime you comment something that is not with their "view" they instantly mark you as a DE White Knight. Yes DE isn't innocent either, but these creators also share part of the blame.

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The community is not a homogenous whole, or only the participants in the forum. And that's beside the self destructive suggestions that are terrible, and the time it takes to change things in game. 

Based on your complaints and perspective, I'd say your the answer to your question. 

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7 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Let's not forget these people have an extremely loyal gathering of "yes players", If you look at Brozime and Mogamu's comment section it's a toxic wasteland. Everytime you comment something that is not with their "view" they instantly mark you as a DE White Knight. Yes DE isn't innocent either, but these creators also share part of the blame.

And that is exactly why we have a pattern like we're experiencing here:

A youtuber like Mogamu makes an over the top negative video about "the state of Warframe" and the cult and trolls spew their cult following rhetoric and hails.

Someone watches those vids and reads those cult comments, feels emotionally compelled to "speak out" here and then gets hit with way more realities than they were let on by the youtuber. 

That's not to say OP came from one of those vids but the pattern does fit. My nephew got caught in the endgame/weapon trash crap from Brozime and Rio and some other dude. I had to ask him if he's ever tried the weapons and if he's ever fought high level enemies. He said no...and quickly realized he stopped doing things in the game he actually really enjoyed because the youtubers said it was not endgame but just "lazy Devs" recycling other stuff. Rhetoric is powerful...as we can see in the USA.

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vor 16 Stunden schrieb GEN-Son_17:

Tact Potato (love the Tater) spoils the game for everyone WAY too quickly. Also, with no disclaimer that he's speaking about weapon/frame performance at the very highest level, he often makes negative comments about items that Gring Hard Squad often proves otherwise.

I know that GHS know some very good combos, but I can't take this guy seriously because of this moment:

Spoiler

 

The augment and gas part is right, but dealing stealth damage with a primary weapon? Seriously that he only lacks the basics of stealth mechanics....

vor 35 Minuten schrieb GEN-Son_17:

And that is exactly why we have a pattern like we're experiencing here:

A youtuber like Mogamu makes an over the top negative video about "the state of Warframe" and the cult and trolls spew their cult following rhetoric and hails.

Someone watches those vids and reads those cult comments, feels emotionally compelled to "speak out" here and then gets hit with way more realities than they were let on by the youtuber. 

That's not to say OP came from one of those vids but the pattern does fit. My nephew got caught in the endgame/weapon trash crap from Brozime and Rio and some other dude. I had to ask him if he's ever tried the weapons and if he's ever fought high level enemies. He said no...and quickly realized he stopped doing things in the game he actually really enjoyed because the youtubers said it was not endgame but just "lazy Devs" recycling other stuff. Rhetoric is powerful...as we can see in the USA.

This.

I think that is one of warframes biggest problems. Many people don't have the knowledge to calculate if youtuber X or Y says the truth, but they still spread their opinon it like it would be a fact. 

But I have to admit that I actually share the view of Mogamu. Imo is one of warframes a biggest problem that there's no mission which require my complete equipment unless I do an endless mission and wait at least +60min.

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I feel the argument of divergent community opinions only goes so far: for sure, the community isn't this singular hive mind with the same opinions, and there will always be disagreement on any given issue, but that does not prevent the fact that some opinions are more minoritary than others. In some cases, one can isolate certain opinions right down to the individual on these forums, whereas others are voiced by hundreds, if not thousands of players. Similarly, while some content creators do attract cults of people who will parrot their thoughts without any real critical thinking, often these figures' opinions only became popular in the first place because they resonated with the playerbase, and echoed an existing sentiment. Even more generally, while we may all disagree on specifics, I do think there is a general consensus on some broad lines of criticism that I think the OP touches upon: DE generally seems to have had a problem producing content at a consistent rate, and has had a notable problem with the quality of said content for a very long time, with years-old major bugs still remaining in the game unaddressed. Warframe has changed significantly in some respects, but that change has often felt directionless, and there have been numerous instances of DE reneging on their promises, or simply not learning from prior mistakes. Through all the noise, these are problems much of the community is clearly aware of, which is why the same criticisms tend to commonly reappear time and time again, and why the game's playerbase has been declining overall. While DE does listen on occasion to us players, that process of feedback-taking is itself inconsistent and often doesn't lead to anything of substance, which is also why player goodwill towards DE has evaporated in recent years. There aren't truly functional communications channels between the devs and their players, and until DE make a genuine effort to improve upon that, they will continue to struggle to satisfy a playerbase that has been left frustrated for quite some time now.

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I feel like people don't truly understand the meaning "white knight" the devs are not the problem it the managers 300 people work there and yet barely any true content come out n events is not flush out things are not fix and places are forgotten when is the last time we hear about the queens, stalker, alan v(not talking about gas city update) the final orb mother, POV and soon Demios will be forgotten when they jump into something new. Things are a mess people want it fix and some people "white knight" protect them from constructive criticism

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