Why is it difficult to get things it feels the Community wants?

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

23 hours ago, MacIntoc said:

Or just use Khora.

The existence of a single frame or mod is not a solution to a universal issue.  You have no Vacuum in the Index.  Yes, you can have it with Khora.  Khora is not the only frame you can take into the index though, so she is not the solution to the issue.  She is a bandaid.

[fr4gb4ll]

On 2020-12-06 at 2:37 AM, Bartholimewthorn said:

--rant--

first off: don't use 'we' lightly since there are so many different opinions about what should be done, when, where and how... everything beside a querry that will at least be answered by a vast majority of the (active) players could give you a 'we' point of view.

next off: this isn't a war but a simple conflict of different intrests. the player want to enjoy the game in a manner of his/her thinking while the devs want to create a game that, while also in a way they enjoy, will also be a successfull product that will provide their salary/income. you'll likey never get those two aspects fully together since the expectations of the 'normal' users are very often totally unrealistic and usually without regard of the creators needs of their product.

ofc, it's not like the users are only 'victims' in this matter - they can 'force' consessions to some degree by simply not using the offered product (not only threatening, but also doing it then) which can put pressure on the developers to change certain aspects of their product... if this leads to a better program or not, is a different story though and beside the point here. good devs will listen to their users not only for bug-hunting and QoL improvements but also as a giant 'think-tank' for new ideas - but for everyone who ever done 'brainstorming' sessions, it's clear that not everything can be done as one wishes - might it due to technical or economical reasons (or many other aspects that can speak against otherwise sound ideas).

beside all this, i agree with you that there are many things DE could do better and some, like the "double as fast now but 3 times the way to go and half (?) the hitpoints" thing is really looking as if they were pulling our legs when they said it was due to popular demand that they changed that for the better when actually the whole packet was now worse than before (in the aspect of what the players complained about)... a bit like: "see, we did what you wanted and now the joke is on you! hahaha". it might be they simply overlooked that what they did was perceived more as a kick to the groin than a friendly slap on the back... language can be so fuzzy at times, right?

as with the iso-vault, i think they done this one quite right... now... to bad i already had grinded everything from this (well, nearly - the new arcanes are not really of much interest for me and i won't pursue their aquirement actively) but that could also be seen as my own fault for gunning at the new contend right away (like i always do) even though i know that things usually gets more easier after a while... so no bad feelings from me to them in this regards.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

11 hours ago, Aesthier said:

Put everyone outside then wall up the Window and continue developing in the direction of my vision wherever it takes me. At least until the banging on the wall becomes to loud.

That's what Disney did with the Star Wars sequel trilogy. They tried to get rid of the fans and turned it into "their vision" for the franchise. Now it shines as bright as a thousand dumpster fires because they lost multiple generations of fans and all Disney had left were like money less tumblr people that don't even buy their merch.

[Xzorn]

There are a few things needed to explain Warframe feedback and why the Devs run circles.

• Warframe never had a defined Goal - There's never been any standard way or interest in how to play Warframe. At first this was actually a good thing. People play how they want but over time it's derailed due to a lack of fixing design flaws in the game, progression, balance and a few loud minorities that claim the game is played "this way" creating meta conditions in a game that technically didn't have them.
• Warframe never had a defined Audience - By this I mean the game attempts to cater to the masses instead of a particular type of gamer. This results in a game that has a little of everything but none of it is fleshed out, very deep in concept and often quickly over. That player who likes one part of the game and not others is left with little else once they've completed the part or in recent years when that part is simply removed. RIP Raids, RIP Endurance runs.
• Warframe has no Community Leaders Anymore - Warframe Veterans are simply done and streamers don't have a reasonable purpose to stream Warframe. The players who know how to play this game well don't play it anymore because they know how scuffed it's become and have heard the same excuses countless times. Warframe has no high end streamers anymore or Youtube presence. There's no one for the devs to look at and judge what players like or how people are playing the game. It's actually very helpful for a Dev to watch other people play their game. They don't have to be good at their game but they do need to make proper judgment viewing players who are good.
• The White Noise Feedback - Mostly due to the above mentioned things. Players have made requests. Those resists branched into other smaller requests and so on. Players don't exactly know what to ask because DE has failed at the above mentioned conditions. Now it's just become ideas of players trying anything to adapt the game and I doubt the Devs can make sense of it. I know I couldn't but I also design games/mods with an audience and goal in mind so this doesn't happen.

I hope one day DE picks an audience, gets their community leaders, is able to listen to feedback and clean up this mosh pit of a game.

[AltheusIV]

Because the community want everything to be easier, harder, more exclusive, less grindy, restricted to veterans, and accessible to new players all at once.

We're a diverse lot with different levels of time and money spent in the game, trying to please all of us basically is going to be very bland and generic.

[MacIntoc]

8 hours ago, AltheusIV said:

Because the community want everything to be easier, harder, more exclusive, less grindy, restricted to veterans, and accessible to new players all at once.

We're a diverse lot with different levels of time and money spent in the game, trying to please all of us basically is going to be very bland and generic.

Yep, but there is a logic :

• easier : doing missions as quickly and safely to bypass the RNG wall
• harder : bringing back the feeling to progress in the game
• less grindy means reducing the feeling of doing a mission just to roll the RNG
• restricted to veteran : having a real progression in game instead of collecting MR fooder stuff
• accessible to new players : because it's difficult to block entire islands of content behind years of progression on a pay 2 accelerate game

Some things must be abandonned to unlock the situation, but nobody (including DE) can really now wich one.

[TheBrsrkr]

Well there's a couple main reasons, both the fault of the community and the fault of DE. 

1) You don't know what you want 

2) Even if you did know what you want, we can't always give it to you 

3)even if we could give it to you, this doesn't fit in the direction we wanted .....

4)...... And that's because we don't yet know the direction we want to go in

5) Your feedback sucks 

6) And even if it didn't suck, DE won't do it 

7)DE is all talk and no action.... 

8)... Because when there is action the community doesn't talk

 

Well, we'll start at the beginning 

1: You don't know what you want

[spoiler] You're thinking "what do you mean I don't know what I want! I want less grind, I want bug fixes, I want meaningful game play, I want frame buffs, I want weapon nerfs, etc." I'm sure you and everyone else has a list like that. But that's not something a developer can just give to you. There isn't a sliding bar called Grind they can just drag down. What do you want to be less grind? Okay, let's take the new event. I haven't played it yet, so I'll just say for example you want arcanes. Do you want arcanes to drop more often? How much more often? How many runs should it take? 5? 50? 500? If we raise that drop rate, will you keep playing? Do we need it to drop from something else? Someone else? Somewhere else? How accessible should it be? Should it be planet locked? How open should it be to new and upcoming players? I'm sure you may have answers to all of these, but you didn't SAY ANYTHING, so they don't KNOW.[/spoiler] 

 

2)Even if you know what you want, we can't always give it to you 

[spoiler] 

Okay, let's say you answered every question above. That still doesn't mean they would do it. Maybe it's there so they reach expected hours played, so they can tweak it a little but not enough for it to matter to you. Maybe it's only a temporary feature so any fix to it will just be wasted dev time. Maybe it's as high as they're willing to go. Maybe they don't want it competing with other sources. Maybe they're working on it as we speak but the solution they found isn't the solution you wanted. Maybe it is the solution you wanted but it causes more problems elsewhere. 

[/spoiler] 

3) Even if we could give it to you, his doesn't fit in the direction we wanted 

[spoiler] 

Maybe we want you to face tougher enemies with hard loot drops because we want you to kill more of these enemies. Maybe we're trying to phase out the thjng you want or are going to change the system entirely. Maybe we're trying to move away from or towards the thing you want and are scaling accordingly. Hell, maybe we just made a mistake in the first place and we don't want to make it too muh worse before we fix it. Maybe we want to tie it in to other systems in the game that will increase your chances or at least the pools you can go to. Maybe we just don't have the time because we're still trying to deal with...... 

[/spoiler] 

 

4) We don't know what direction we're going in 

[spoiler] 

Warframe is so lost right now. There are massive content islands, and rather than bridge them together they instead just make another island between them in the hopes that if they chain enough islands eventually people will walk from one to another. But it isn't working. Warframe can be split into 2 entirely different games at this point and function as another title with the amount of mechanics they have. To make this worse, the player base both wants the content to be linked together but hates when this actually happens as people are forced to play to a tune they didn't ask for and didn't want for bonuses the game now has to assume you have because they're too BIG. Now everything has to be left half finished because the Next Big Thing is on the horizon, but the Next Big thing has to include the Last Big Thing and the Big Thing Before That, so that more people have to go through the Big Things we spent all our money and Dev time on but they hate anyway. 

[/spoiler] 

5) Your feedback sucks

[spoiler] 

Call me an old fogey for this, but back in my day we had better feedback. We didn't always agree, sure, but both sides talked about their points on either side whether something should be buffed, nerfed, changed, reworked, anything. Threads could be up to 20 pages or more an everyone chipped in their little bit for a solution. Did we always get what we want? More often than not, no. Did the devs always notice? Hardly. But it was overall better because it had solutions, proposals, identified the problems (or attempted to anyway) and bickered and jibed over all the nitpicky details. There's none of that on these threads. Someone would write a proposal, and people would say "yeah but the entire game is unbalanced so whatever" or "don't nerf x when A/B/C is a much bigger deal" or "why are new players always crying about x". I can't even find a megathread this year that wasn't started by a developer. I'm sure there's at least one thing everyone can agree is bad with Warframe. Where's the threads? Where's your take? You're here, on the forums, to give feedback, so you obviously care about the game. Why did you come here just to write it all off as meaningless? 

[/spoiler] 

 

6) Even if it didn't suck, DE probably won't do it and 7) DE is all talk and no action. 

[spoiler] but it wouldn't matter anyway, because DE doesn't care. Or at least, that's how it looks. I know DE cares, YOU probably know DE cares, but that isn't how it looks. Nerfs take months to roll out. Warframe take months to rework and change. Broken and useless systems can spend months, even years, before they're even acknowledged. It's almost been 2 years since the Final War was announced. Railack was hyped for months and broken on release. Liches were first a joke that killed you where you win, and now they're a joke that couldn't kill you if you tried. Lotus has been a hologram since I left, and I don't even know what happened to that. There's been a real content drought for the past year, longer than usual. There. Are. Problems. And there have been proposed solutions. Not all of them were good. Most of them, in fact, are terrible. But the problem isn't doing what the good or bad ones say, the problem is not acknowledging that anything is wrong at all until it's catastrophic, then not interacting with the community about how or what a fix should be. It's an announcement, hen radio silence. A megathread, but no comments in or about it. Then a solution is announced, rather than proposed, and no feedback about it changes anything about it. It's back to Devstream, back to Tennocon, back to the separate world they exist in from the player base. 

[/spoiler] 

8) The player base doesn't point out anything good ever 

[spoiler] 

Yes, even the so called "White Knights" of Warframe never have anything good to say about it. Damage 3.0 or 2.5 or whatever we called it is a net improvement to the game. No one agrees with every single change (and I have questions on some that didn't, namely Puncture status) but it was good, made a lot more weapons and elements viable and was, in my opinion, one of the best things DE did in the past few years. But who says anything about it? No one said its good. No one showed any thanks for it. No one cared. The best you got was "DE fixes something they should have fixed years ago" which, while maybe true, is probably the most demoralizing thing you could say to a developer. There was a buff to a hundred low tier weapons that did wonders for the new player experience. 3 bosses were reworked to be not garbage, the starchart wrapped around to include actual progression and a reason to use it, more reasons to go to the open world (which was a huge issue a year after launch) and we give the devs nothing about it. Either snark that they should have done it earlier, whinge that it wasn't done perfectly or radio silence. This is very detrimental to the health of the game, and is one of the easiest things to change about the forums. All it takes is you making a thread saying thanks. That's it. 

[spoiler/]