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Glaives are far too broken to stay long in this state


vanaukas

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While I liked a lot the changes, I'm seeing the exact same pattern of OP weapon on "release" (aka revisited glaives) then everyone using them suddenly and then nerfing them out to be put in line with the other options.

I'm also curious because I think they did this on purpose to promote glaive usage (wich let's be real, it was a very niche weapon) but at the same time they completely broke them. With the proper setup, you don't even have to build combo to kill everything in determined area quickly, without wasting ammo or energy in your frame. It's a melee after all.

So, how do you think DE is going to manage this? Let me know your theory! 

My theory:

Spoiler

2 choices: They nerf certain mods that allow those nasty effortless synergies that they don't like and always end up nerfing or they will put every single melee in line with the rest of the game with melee 3.0, so we'll probably have plenty of time to use them anyways. I do not think they are going to touch stats in the near future unless melee 3.0 is too far to allow somethign this broken to exist.

Volatile quick rebound holy S#&$, you need yo try it.

EDIT: I think this could be kinda relevant:

 

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Volatile Quick Rebound is decent for applying more debuffs on Enemies, but it's not that exciting. good if you wanted your Thrown Melee to mainly be for debuffing rather than Damage, but for Damage it's unremarkable.

your opposing factors are mainly that it's relatively time intensive to Kill lots of Enemies with most of the crutch ways to use a Thrown Melee currently, with the last remaining one having even longer Animations and location specific restrictions to deal with.
not really a major standout compared to other Melee Weapons.

it's pretty normal to not need much on the Hit Counter to Kill Enemies with, if you're finding your own Melee Weapons struggling to Kill things without having the Hit Counter up pretty high, just FYI that is an abnormally underperforming scenario you have put yourself in.

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1 minute ago, taiiat said:

Volatile Quick Rebound is decent for applying more debuffs on Enemies, but it's not that exciting. good if you wanted your Thrown Melee to mainly be for debuffing rather than Damage, but for Damage it's unremarkable.

your opposing factors are mainly that it's relatively time intensive to Kill lots of Enemies with most of the crutch ways to use a Thrown Melee currently, with the last remaining one having even longer Animations and location specific restrictions to deal with.
not really a major standout compared to other Melee Weapons.

it's pretty normal to not need much on the Hit Counter to Kill Enemies with, if you're finding your own Melee Weapons struggling to Kill things without having the Hit Counter up pretty high, just FYI that is an abnormally underperforming scenario you have put yourself in.

Thing is, I don't use any combo mods on melee, because I rarely play a warframe and those mods don't ebenefit at all my playstyle. But nuking in arbitration just pressing E with thsi build, honestly it's insane. I don't even have to aim, I just keep pressed E and evertyhign dies. I've tried 3 different builds with both volatile mdos and without them and honestly it felt more good with the setup that left me with 80~85%  SC and CC and VQR rather than without them. When you par that with weapons like the Furis with Winds of Purity, I start to see a devastating setup honestly. Big CC, big AOE, fast paed combat with self heal. 

But yeah, maybe the trading it's too high for those who rely mostly in their melee, I didn't taken into account that. But after seeing my umbers, numbers of other players while spamming glaives... I'm seeing the same thing with Kuva Bramma all over again.

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4 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

But nuking in arbitration just pressing E with thsi build, honestly it's insane. I don't even have to aim, I just keep pressed E and evertyhign dies.

 

I've tried 3 different builds with both volatile mdos and without them and honestly it felt more good with the setup that left me with 80~85%  SC and CC and VQR rather than without them. When you par that with weapons like the Furis with Winds of Purity, I start to see a devastating setup honestly. Big CC, big AOE, fast paed combat with self heal. 

But after seeing my umbers, numbers of other players while spamming glaives... I'm seeing the same thing with Kuva Bramma all over again.

that sounds like Melee in general to me. :)

 

the Bounce Explosion Mods are cool, but without them the Weapons can already deal with Enemies competently, much like other Melee Weapons, so they're superfluous, to me. in Steel Path Endurance if you had Magnetize/Larva/Ensnare/Et Cetera to group Enemies though, i could see those Mods being useful.

if something gets popular it'll get nerfed, yeah. but that's nothing new, it has not much to do with the actual numbers/performance of something, just "good 'ol" League of lameos style if it's popular nerf it. ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

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2 minutes ago, taiiat said:

that sounds like Melee in general to me. :)

 

the Bounce Explosion Mods are cool, but without them the Weapons can already deal with Enemies competently, much like other Melee Weapons, so they're superfluous, to me. in Steel Path Endurance if you had Magnetize/Larva/Ensnare/Et Cetera to group Enemies though, i could see those Mods being useful.

if something gets popular it'll get nerfed, yeah. but that's nothing new, it has not much to do with the actual numbers/performance of something, just "good 'ol" League of lameos style if it's popular nerf it. ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

I know, but no melee can act like this. VQR is throw after throw, you almsot don't have any waiting time like with the regular (and more rare with more draining capacity) Volatile Rebound, wich acts like you describe. I don't have a melee that completely obliberiates 8 m of range with a powerful explosion while I'm in the air evading all the ground CC or abusing mods like Aerodinamic. While I don't use a lot of melee, I do have good ones (wich I used to do SP alone), even with rivens, and my current glaive prime with 2 forma takes them out the picture if that's the playstyle that benefits me. I found too slow the glaives in general and that feeling hadn't changed before the revision, but having the posibility to freely trhow a 2x melee (corrupt charge) and then trhowing i again with that 2x and with everything I said above, I fail to see how this can be comparable to, IDK, a Cronus or a Kronen Prime (My kronen prime with riven + primed reach have 7.13 of range and even that doesn't compare to the range I have right now with the glaive with this setup. I even wasted the 2 forma to try Volatile Rbound only to going back to VQR:

Sin descripción disponible.3 60/60 (viral + heat) + corrupt charge + sacrifical set + VQR + amalgam organ shatter.

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1 hour ago, vanaukas said:

While I liked a lot the changes, I'm seeing the exact same pattern of OP weapon on "release" (aka revisited glaives) then everyone using them suddenly and then nerfing them out to be put in line with the other options.

First, PC players are the beta test group for anything being dropped in the game and our testing of the weapons and the changes is why they get "nerfed".  Frankly I never liked the use of the word "nerfed" when it comes to this game as this is the phrase meta-slaves use because they want to play lazy with weapons instead of playing for the challenge.  I would prefer the phrase re-worked to balance because many of the weapons people scream "nerfed!" often don't further paper and play test to seeing how the weapon is just as good, but requires a little more work. 

So it's natural that it's dropped rough and seems over-powered until the reports show the truth and a re-balance to better outputs occur.  

And don't think because the test bed exists now is going to be the answer.  As Voltage and several other veterans that are part of the test bed have said publicly and privately -- DE often ignores that group and simply throws it out directly to the player base because -- in my not even remotely humble opinion -- old habits are hard to break and they've been doing it this way for more than 7 years.  

21 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

if it's good, don't talk about it, that's how stuff gets nerfed lol.

Seriously?  The playerbase didn't talk about the Simulor, happily running with that weapon without a word about how Overpowered it was and it still got it's rework.  Why?  Several of the key management of DE are managers and managers often love their reports.  This game has a hell of a reporting option (more than most players often realize it's doing), and while the playerbase might be silent -- the reports and damage outputs we do with those weapons are ending up on their desks each day, week and month and that's where the determination for a rework is occurring.  

And if you ever question my experience with the information I provided, ask yourself this instead.  Where did this happily little picture happen from?  This was from 3 years ago, while DE hasn't done this since, I guarantee the reporting hasn't once stopped working for the game: 

infographic2017.jpg

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2 minutes ago, minininja77 said:

we have a nice new toy for less than a month and already people want space mom to take it away,

I don't want them nerfed, I'm sure it's going to be nerfed. There is a huge difference between both sentences. 

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8 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

First, PC players are the beta test group for anything being dropped in the game and our testing of the weapons and the changes is why they get "nerfed".  Frankly I never liked the use of the word "nerfed" when it comes to this game as this is the phrase meta-slaves use because they want to play lazy with weapons instead of playing for the challenge.  I would prefer the phrase re-worked to balance because many of the weapons people scream "nerfed!" often don't further paper and play test to seeing how the weapon is just as good, but requires a little more work. 

So it's natural that it's dropped rough and seems over-powered until the reports show the truth and a re-balance to better outputs occur.  

And don't think because the test bed exists now is going to be the answer.  As Voltage and several other veterans that are part of the test bed have said publicly and privately -- DE often ignores that group and simply throws it out directly to the player base because -- in my not even remotely humble opinion -- old habits are hard to break and they've been doing it this way for more than 7 years.  

Seriously?  The playerbase didn't talk about the Simulor, happily running with that weapon without a word about how Overpowered it was and it still got it's rework.  Why?  Several of the key management of DE are managers and managers often love their reports.  This game has a hell of a reporting option (more than most players often realize it's doing), and while the playerbase might be silent -- the reports and damage outputs we do with those weapons are ending up on their desks each day, week and month and that's where the determination for a rework is occurring.  

And if you ever question my experience with the information I provided, ask yourself this instead.  Where did this happily little picture happen from?  This was from 3 years ago, while DE hasn't done this since, I guarantee the reporting hasn't once stopped working for the game: 

infographic2017.jpg

A nerf is a reduction of a value, if it's in testing or if some people explode when they saw that word doesn't matter, I'm nto gonna use generic "balance" synonyms to talk about an almsot guaranteed reduction on the curent stats.

I don't get why people demonizes this bad the word "nerf", to the point that is linked to crymoan meta-slaves instead just someone using the right word for the right condition. A rebalance/rework/tweak/revision can be fopr even more powerful stats or a reduction of those. A reduction is a nerf.

I agree with the rest, that myth of "Shhh! Don't talk about it or they are gonna ruin it!" it's one of the most absurd things in this comunity and I can't understand why is so rooted in most of the playerbase mind.

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Things only get nerfed if they're blatantly out of line, are being used to exploit something, or are being greatly overused by the community. And since Glaives aren't doing anything other melee weapons can already do I don't see anything happening to them before melee weapons as a whole get nerfed.

Which I wouldn't mind personally if the entire melee system took a hit but there is nothing about Glaives that are unique in this situation. And if anything I doubt they could ever get an "overuse" nerf as they take objectively more effort to use than any other spam/heavy attack build.

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Tried glaives for a bit after the changes, not too impressed since my regular melee does the same job while feeling alot more mobile. Glaives are a good option and atleast competes with normal melee now. But if I wanna play a ranged focused Captain America proxy I might aswell play Captain America in Marvel's Avengers, since that is what glaives currently feels like, except with a boom.

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2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The dual wield feature isn't as cool now since we can quick melee anyway. They feel better, but still clunky to me. The orvius still didn't work properly for me

Your talking about the orvius special float an enemy thing? It's really tricky to pull off you need to hold down melee like you were going to throw it but release it before the three hooks appear around the aiming reticle. I think there's a little flash around the reticle but I could be wrong.

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9 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

didnt they already nerf volatile quick return already ? so theres your answer i guess

AFAIK they didn't. I can undeerstand why everyone talks about "how slow" it is, clearly shows they aren't using VQR. VQR reduces the bounces to the point that the glaive comeback to you inediatly after exploding a bunch of enemies. No melee can do that unles we count, IDK, some zaw arcanes? Gonna do a video today about it, at least in SP and arbitrations the dmg is very nice.

Since everyone point on the "Bramma thread" was: Too much AOE, too much visual VFX, and "too cheap", glaives follows the same pattern. Since it's too new, I guess It's just a matter of time when they are going to realize the state. This woull be mroe hillarious when they discover the interaction of the Phahd scaffold (The glaive scaffold, wich had some similar chenges) with the "Void Blast" of the operator.

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2 hours ago, Battle.Mage said:

mele should be nerfed hard. (to the ground!)
at best it should do as much damage as braton with 3-4 mods. and heavy attacks may not kill mobs on SE on less than 3 minutes.
also LOS for saryn etc. and for all other weapons with aoe.

Your notion that every mission should take forty minutes in a farming game is fetishism at best case scenario.

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On 2020-12-06 at 6:25 PM, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

if it's good, don't talk about it, that's how stuff gets nerfed lol.

I had someone ask me why all my posts on the forums are complaints, or negative.  Especially since I'm not all negative in-game.

This is the answer right here.  Someone makes a post about how something is so OP here or on the subreddit, a few videos get made, a bunch of people try it, it catches on, everything gets nerfed.  I've watched it happen in that exact order so many times over the last 3 years.  Someone at DE is perched up in the forums and subreddit just looking for fun to snatch up and tear apart.  People are going to call me out for saying that and act like I'm exaggerating, but they have the reputation they do for a reason, so miss me with y'alls BS.

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