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why are most people against pvp being in Warframe?


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21 minutes ago, BRZZAFK said:

Death is not a consequence of failure in warframe. It's just like a annoying knock back. The real consequence of failure that base on RNG in warframe is you complete a game activity and didnt get the reward you want. If it's Sortie it take away 15 min of your time. In Dark Souls Death punish player by replay the level and not being able to progress. In warframe it's not. It only take 5 sec away from you.

EmberStar refuted this better than I could, but in addition to that:

20 minutes ago, BRZZAFK said:

You guys just keep barking at the wrong tree.

Clearly not, the devs listened to us instead of you, and the game was better for it

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9分钟前 , TARINunit9 说:

EmberStar refuted this better than I could, but in addition to that:

Clearly not, the devs listened to us instead of you, and the game was better for it

Yeah and warframe is slowly become a afk game because player keep sending the message "player dont like death". Mission will slowly become the bounty in deimos which you wait in this circle for 2min to collect your reward.  

Edited by BRZZAFK
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11 minutes ago, BRZZAFK said:

Yeah and warframe is slowly become a afk game because player keep sending the message "player dont like death". Mission will slowly become the bounty in deimos which you wait in this circle for 2min to collect your reward.  

I'm sorry, are we talking about the same update? The same update that had the Heart of Deimos quest? The quest that put you at 1 HP with no weapons, and told you to escape from a tunnel full of hitscan enemies?

I understand, being proven wrong about something hurts. But it's not because everyone who disagrees with you is a conspiracy-esque hive mind of "special snowflakes". Sometimes you just need to accept the evidence you thought was definitive was actually anomalous

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17 minutes ago, BRZZAFK said:

Yeah and warframe is slowly become a afk game because player keep sending the message "player dont like death". Mission will slowly become the bounty in deimos which you wait in this circle for 2min to collect your reward.  

So is the method to counteract the lack of "difficulty" in Warframe to make every weapon have a 1 in 10 chance of exploding when you shoot it instantly killing the player?

No, the solution is not to make asinine "You die now" mechanics, it is to remove the things that make AFK play possible in the first place and actually BALANCE THE GAME.

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8分钟前 , TARINunit9 说:

I'm sorry, are we talking about the same update? The same update that had the Heart of Deimos quest? The quest that put you at 1 HP with no weapons, and told you to escape from a tunnel full of hitscan enemies?

If you think that is challenge than ok.

9分钟前 , TARINunit9 说:

I understand, being proven wrong about something hurts. But it's not because everyone who disagrees with you is a conspiracy-esque hive mind of "special snowflakes". Sometimes you just need to accept the evidence you thought was definitive was actually anomalous

Why will i get hurt by the right or wrong thing dev or players make?

If De did lean the lesson from the lich they will be working on reconsider all the knock back right now. Not just remove one and call it a day.

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2 minutes ago, BRZZAFK said:

If De did lean the lesson from the lich they will be working on reconsider all the knock back right now. Not just remove one and call it a day.

At least we can find some common ground in this: knockdowns are annoying. Each enemy has an individual "cooldown" timer (one specific Scorpion has to wait about 30 seconds between hookshots) but there's nothing stopping enemies from spacing them out to chain knockdowns. It's not challenge when the player's defenses are still deactivated. It should be, that if a player is knocked down by something (i.e. Scorpion hookshot), all enemies will not target that player with that specific knockdown (i.e. the other five Scorpions in the same room) for about ten seconds

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4 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

At least we can find some common ground in this: knockdowns are annoying. Each enemy has an individual "cooldown" timer (one specific Scorpion has to wait about 30 seconds between hookshots) but there's nothing stopping enemies from spacing them out to chain knockdowns. It's not challenge when the player's defenses are still deactivated. It should be, that if a player is knocked down by something (i.e. Scorpion hookshot), all enemies will not target that player with that specific knockdown (i.e. the other five Scorpions in the same room) for about ten seconds

Something I've seen in other games is that knockdowns (or stuns, or whatever) include a hidden, stacking short term resistance to that kind of crowd control.  One Ancient can hookshot you, two *might* be able to chain it with a chance for the second to fail.  But four of them don't get to drag you around the room in circles until one of them accidentally LOS hits a potted plant by mistake.

Of course it would also be nice if they didn't have pinpoint accuracy on the attack and had even a slight chance to miss the shot in the first place.  The only way they miss now is if you're bunny hopping all over the place - if you're standing still or running even a short distance in a straight line they can lead their target with complete precision.  That and the fact that it's actually a pretty common attack for *three* of the existing factions is why I'm pretty sure that anyone claiming to be "so awesome" they never get hooked and dragged is simply lying.

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3 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

Of course it would also be nice if they didn't have pinpoint accuracy on the attack and had even a slight chance to miss the shot in the first place.  The only way they miss now is if you're bunny hopping all over the place - if you're standing still or running even a short distance in a straight line they can lead their target with complete precision.  That and the fact that it's actually a pretty common attack for *three* of the existing factions is why I'm pretty sure that anyone claiming to be "so awesome" they never get hooked and dragged is simply lying.

You forgot the part where their animation starts too early, and the hookshot's trajectory is calculated much later. In real life, when you throw something, the direction of your arm is the direction of the throw. Scorpions/Ancients don't follow this; they extend their throwing arm -- and after a certain point in the animation, they can't rotate any more -- but their hookshot can go in a completely different direction to their arm. The end result? The player dodging too early, and the hookshot tracking the dodge

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Because pvp serves a purpose. Like battle royale games Warframe pvp needs to be it's own thing that serves a direction to create a different type of Warframe build that offers benefits. Warframe pvp need to be like character customization. We should build a Warframe from scratch and attach what we like. Like making our own gundam. We need a separate part of the origin universe where enemies only respects the pvp. Uncharted planets in the origin system were entire cultures way of life is dungeon raid and pvp versus enemies and frames.

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57分钟前 , TARINunit9 说:

At least we can find some common ground in this: knockdowns are annoying. Each enemy has an individual "cooldown" timer (one specific Scorpion has to wait about 30 seconds between hookshots) but there's nothing stopping enemies from spacing them out to chain knockdowns. It's not challenge when the player's defenses are still deactivated. It should be, that if a player is knocked down by something (i.e. Scorpion hookshot), all enemies will not target that player with that specific knockdown (i.e. the other five Scorpions in the same room) for about ten seconds

Well it's still far from ok though. 
Punishment in video game always come with Why and How. Why player get themself knockdowns? nothing. player just playing the game . How did the game punish player? also nothing. beside intrupte your game play for 2 sec and that's it. So in the end we get a mechanic that it's maybe fair but just make the game annoying to play. 
If we just tell devs we dont like to die. They will just fix the problem in the surface level.
De need to see the core of problem. And so do we as player in order to provide good feed back that's my point. 

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23 minutes ago, BRZZAFK said:

Why player get themself knockdowns? nothing. player just playing the game .

Well it's a projectile attack. If it was hitscan I'd agree with you, but it's not. It's a visible projectile attack with an audio cue

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PvP, or competitive games follows the one, most basic rule:

"The faster you make your movement mechanics, the simpler you must make your shooting mechanics." (Note: shooting mechanics = means of attacking)

(and vice versa)

Warframe does not condone to this rule. It has fast paced movement with a complex shooting mechanics because said mechanics is tied to the movement. For example, melee, and projectile based AoE weaponry are both tied to movement.

Not condoning to the rule ends up having an "unbalanced" skill ceiling and skill floor. Most, if not every single, successful PvP games condone to this rule by striking a balance for it.

If warframe will compete in its PvP sector, then they must do:

> Balance weaponry with simplified damage system and recoil + accuracy
> Heavily nerf AoE most effective fire speed. (Not to be confused with fire rate)
> Remove melee from Conclave and give it its own separate gamemode.

Or

> Reduce Movement. Remove double jump.
> Increase weapon damage.
> Make aim glide one directional.

Or

> Redesign maps to be larger to accomodate the fast movement.
> Essentially achieves the same result as before.
> Increase weapon damage.
> Reduce weapon innaccuracy.

 

None of the following are easy changes, both for the game and for its developers. This will take away significant development time which could have been used in developing PvE content and PvE bug fixing, which is what the game is at its core: PvE shooter.

Edited by Aadi880
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45 minutes ago, Aadi880 said:

"The faster you make your movement mechanics, the simpler you must make your shooting mechanics."

I dunno, Team Fortress 2 sits pretty high "above-average" in both categories

In movement: every class can air-strafe, three classes can use rocket-jumping as a core mechanic and a fourth can do so to lay traps, the start of every round revolves around knowing where the enemy can position and when ("rollout"), one class revolves around not only maximizing his own movement while invisible but also minimizing situations where he can't match the movement of his disguise

Shooting mechanics: every class has primary and secondary weapons with active and passive buffs and debuffs, the most powerful class in the game has two projectile weapons that arc and have splash damage, the large majority of close-range combat revolves around twitch-reflexes and reloading timing, medium ranged combat is about juggling and weapon-spread management, and team composition relies around spy checking and tracking both team's Medics and their respective health and ubercharges

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21 hours ago, Lored said:

Conclave is an example of a failed attempt to introduce PVP into a PVE-focused game.

- Disgusting balance

- Deliberately slowed Standing farm

- Boring game mods

- Meager rewards for each match

- Unpopular

- Abandoned by devs

Most of these stem from people being vocally against PvP from the get go.  It's always been a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy where it's crappy because DE has been too afraid to put any resources into it despite having devs who helped create one of the greatest PvP franchises of all time.  It's impressive that it isn't even more of a mess since it's mostly been 1-2 people working on it in their spare time.

Edited by Aggh
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A highly competitive scene is good for viewership and bad for the playerbase. With all monetisation focused on pve content, pvp is and will always have to be second fiddle to the pve. You don't want to draw in pvp players, only to let them down when the mode doesn't get any further development for another 5 years.

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I won't mind PvP if it is Grineer vs Corpus, Grineer vs Infested or Corpus vs Infested.

 

Last time I tried PvP there seemed to be new meta where people sit high ground with Vulkar or other sniper and headshot you the very second you spawn. People also have ridiculous aim while we both Bullet jump like maniacs and there is terrible feedback if I'm getting hit and if I'm hitting back.

 

Lunaro was quite fantastic pvp imo. Then controls got some changes as well as some action buttons and it got worse. There seems to be zero teamplay as well, just smash the ball somewhere if enemy player gets too close and lag takes care of the rest.

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8 hours ago, xXMadneXDXx said:

It´s not about you alone, parkour is what makes warframe pvp unique... there is no other game that have it.

Titanfall 1 and 2, and even two of the CoD games that you so readily dismiss had parkour mechanics (specifically, Black Ops 3 and Infinite Warfare). If you go back further even more games show up with parkour in their PvP.

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30 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I dunno, Team Fortress 2 sits pretty high "above-average" in both categories

In movement: every class can air-strafe, three classes can use rocket-jumping as a core mechanic and a fourth can do so to lay traps, the start of every round revolves around knowing where the enemy can position and when ("rollout"), one class revolves around not only maximizing his own movement while invisible but also minimizing situations where he can't match the movement of his disguise

Shooting mechanics: every class has primary and secondary weapons with active and passive buffs and debuffs, the most powerful class in the game has two projectile weapons that arc and have splash damage, the large majority of close-range combat revolves around twitch-reflexes and reloading timing, medium ranged combat is about juggling and weapon-spread management, and team composition relies around spy checking and tracking both team's Medics and their respective health and ubercharges

I would consider that shooting mechanics you've described is considerably simpler with that movement mechanics. Not only that, but maps are specifically designed in TF2 to keep the movement mechanics in-line with its shooting mechanics (How much reachable terrain vs how much cover). In TF2, it restricts both of them such that a balance between the mechanics are struck.

 

In warframe, you have a primary, secondary, tertiary and a quaternary weapon.

Primary and secondary weapons:

> Some may have 3 to 1 fire modes. Some may have an AoE component. Some may be AoE hitscan, or AoE projectile. Some may or may not have tracers. Some may or may not have a scope, and if they do, they may or may not have a special effect when scoped in. Some may or may not have innate elementals. Some may or may not have a specific damage type missing (ie no IPS weaponry). Some may or may not have infinite ammo mechanics. Some may have auto-aim built onto them.

Tertiary weapons: 

> Melee weapons. Some melee weapons are even ranged weapons. Some have innate toxin that bypasses shields. melee weapons have innate ground slam which can be used to cover large distances (50+ meters in 2 seconds). Heavy ground slams have innate lifted status. Slide attacks exist. Telos Boltace weaponry exists. There are way too many melee weapons for with unique mechanics for me to account for, and I haven't even begun talking about stances and AoE melees

Quaternary weapons:

> The warframe itself. There are 44 unique warframes, each with 5 unique mechanics: 4 abilities and 1 passives. Thats a whooping 220 different mechanics you need to account for, both for the player to realise, and for the developer to balance. I have not even started talking about multi-ability warframes yet (Ivara, Gauss, Grendel, Xaku, Wisp etc).

 

All that, combined with slide, walking, jogging, sprinting, crouching, bullet jumping, wall latching, wall running, rolling, air-slideing, air-dodging, air-strafing, gliding + each and every single shooting mechanic gives warframe a rather absurdly high combinatorics.

 

And I guess we can all agree how the map design in warframe never accounts for both of them. We haven't even gotten a proper PvP map yet after the parkour update that balances movement vs shooting.

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1 hour ago, Aadi880 said:

In warframe, you have a primary, secondary, tertiary and a quaternary weapon.

-snip-

Oh, Warframe is DEFINITELY on the top end with just how much we can haul around, so we're in agreement of a more generalized thesis of "Warframe has too many movement AND combat mechanics to balance in PvP." But I think you sell Team Fortress 2 short. Or my definition of "average" is way too low. I admit that could also be a factor

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Warframe has expanded too many features outside of the scope of PvP. That means all of the progress, tactics, and instincts developed playing the game don't apply to a PvP game. 

I'd love to get into PvP myself, but it never seems to operate when I try it. And honestly, there should be private match making for ppl who want to explore the tiles or play with clan mates. Hell, I don't even know what I'm talking about because I never got a match to start.

I'm sure there's a way to make something PvP oriented work in Warframe. But it's gonna take some major accessibility improvements for it to matter. And probably server side hosting, if that's not already applicable. 

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8 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Clearly not, the devs listened to us instead of you, and the game was better for it

No now it's terrible, stab and it just goes "Haha idiot" levels up for no reason and leaves, that's better?

At least do an animation but don't kill the player if people don't enjoy that part

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7 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

No now it's terrible, stab and it just goes "Haha idiot" levels up for no reason and leaves, that's better?

Bluntly, yes

7 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

At least do an animation but don't kill the player if people don't enjoy that part

I do wish there was a way to keep the "Bane's Chiropractic Special" animation, but apparently that was price to pay to not have stupid RNG deaths after you WIN a boss fight, which is still a net gain for the players and the game's health

Edited by TARINunit9
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