why are most people against pvp being in Warframe?

[(XBOX)V4L4KH]

Just now, EmberStar said:

So... you literally didn't read a single thing I wrote.  Noted, ignoring you.

🙄

[Elessara1]

I dislike PVP in general.  I've not liked it in any game I've tried it in, mostly due to the players who have always been more toxic than I found the PVE players to be.  I'm also just ... tired.  Tired of players or devs trying to shoehorn PVP into every single online game around.  There are plenty of online games with PVP.  Not every game needs it or is even designed for it and that's ok.

[ghoti0315]

I won't say no if they improved conclave but I am still not gonna do it anyway.

In warframe what you do is bullet-jumping and rolling, but in other games you just got WASD or run + WASD. And abilities kinda ruined this as well - look at volt's shield or wukong.

[FooldudeDalis]

The biggest problem facing PvP is that the skills necessary to do well aren't taught at all in PvE.  I wouldn't be surprised if most people just stop, aim, then shoot when they need to kill something with a gun, face-tanking the damage the enemies do in return, and they can get away with it.  There's no need to bulletjump and headshot the enemy during a high-speed aimglide before wall jumping into another bulletjump and headshot a different enemy from above.  Heck, with the hitscan weapons, enemy accuracy, and instant enemy turn-speed, it might actually be detrimental to do such things.  So with a very low mechanical skill requirement for the main game but a very high skill-ceiling, you get the Fighting Game problem: when you suck, it's rubbed in your face.  People don't like being shown just how bad they are, heck just look through some of the comments in this thread (not related to the Lich debate).  This is also why team games that do have mechanical depth, like DOTA or LoL, became popular, because you can blame your teammates ("I shouldn't be in Bronze, I just keep getting bad teammates!").

The game as it is actually could have niche appeal, there are a lot of people lamenting the death of Arena Shooters, but that niche won't play the game because of the PvE.  Wanna give the Karak a shot?  Gotta play the main game that doesn't reward mechanical skill as much as raw numbers.  Wanna give Trinity a try?  Gotta clear most of the star-chart first, she's on Pluto.  You can get Volt, Mag, and Excalibur through PvP, and only if you hit max rank.  Tie that with none of your PvE progress mod-wise actually doing anything for a PvP player, and it would feel like a slog.  Add in some poor balance and it's just not an appealing package right now.  And I don't see any way to fix this without the PvE side feeling screwed over.

On a final note, it's always hilarious seeing people saying the acrobatics make the PvP bad.  It's like saying "Chess has too many options, and at tournaments you got this timer that puts pressure on you.  Checkers has none of that, so it's clearly a superior game."  Yeah, checkers may have more people playing it than chess, but argument from popularity is a fallacy for a reason: it says nothing about why it's good or bad.  You could say parkour means both sides need better aim, the ability to aim at high speeds, and good spatial awareness, but those qualities are neither inherently good or bad.  It just means that you need more skill than other games, and until you get those skills you need to lose a lot because you can't practice anywhere else, just against other people.  And people don't like to lose, whether they deserve it or not.  Doesn't mean losing is bad.  We all lose at the end, after all.

[Butterfly85]

If I want pvp, along with the general pvp experience of toxic trash talk, I'd go play CoD. 🤷‍♀️

[(XBOX)V4L4KH]

14 hours ago, FooldudeDalis said:

The biggest problem facing PvP is that the skills necessary to do well aren't taught at all in PvE.  I wouldn't be surprised if most people just stop, aim, then shoot when they need to kill something with a gun, face-tanking the damage the enemies do in return, and they can get away with it.  There's no need to bulletjump and headshot the enemy during a high-speed aimglide before wall jumping into another bulletjump and headshot a different enemy from above.  Heck, with the hitscan weapons, enemy accuracy, and instant enemy turn-speed, it might actually be detrimental to do such things.  So with a very low mechanical skill requirement for the main game but a very high skill-ceiling, you get the Fighting Game problem: when you suck, it's rubbed in your face.  People don't like being shown just how bad they are, heck just look through some of the comments in this thread (not related to the Lich debate).  This is also why team games that do have mechanical depth, like DOTA or LoL, became popular, because you can blame your teammates ("I shouldn't be in Bronze, I just keep getting bad teammates!").

The game as it is actually could have niche appeal, there are a lot of people lamenting the death of Arena Shooters, but that niche won't play the game because of the PvE.  Wanna give the Karak a shot?  Gotta play the main game that doesn't reward mechanical skill as much as raw numbers.  Wanna give Trinity a try?  Gotta clear most of the star-chart first, she's on Pluto.  You can get Volt, Mag, and Excalibur through PvP, and only if you hit max rank.  Tie that with none of your PvE progress mod-wise actually doing anything for a PvP player, and it would feel like a slog.  Add in some poor balance and it's just not an appealing package right now.  And I don't see any way to fix this without the PvE side feeling screwed over.

On a final note, it's always hilarious seeing people saying the acrobatics make the PvP bad.  It's like saying "Chess has too many options, and at tournaments you got this timer that puts pressure on you.  Checkers has none of that, so it's clearly a superior game."  Yeah, checkers may have more people playing it than chess, but argument from popularity is a fallacy for a reason: it says nothing about why it's good or bad.  You could say parkour means both sides need better aim, the ability to aim at high speeds, and good spatial awareness, but those qualities are neither inherently good or bad.  It just means that you need more skill than other games, and until you get those skills you need to lose a lot because you can't practice anywhere else, just against other people.  And people don't like to lose, whether they deserve it or not.  Doesn't mean losing is bad.  We all lose at the end, after all.

And you forget about the tech issues like lag, servers, device input delay and so on. I´ve said it a million times on different forums for different games, e-sports are just a fallacy for fat kids because the requirements to achieve a "fair" competition are way beyond the player skills and it´s very low the chance to have them equal for everybody in a network.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

53 minutes ago, (XBOX)V4L4KH said:

And you forget about the tech issues like lag, servers, device input delay and so on. I´ve said it a million times on different forums for different games, e-sports are just a fallacy for fat kids because the requirements to achieve a "fair" competition are way beyond the player skills and it´s very low the chance to have them equal for everybody in a network.

You sound kind of bitter. Anything you want to get off your chest? 

[Aesthier]

On 2020-12-09 at 11:56 PM, FooldudeDalis said:

The biggest problem facing PvP is that the skills necessary to do well aren't taught at all in PvE.  I wouldn't be surprised if most people just stop, aim, then shoot when they need to kill something with a gun, face-tanking the damage the enemies do in return, and they can get away with it.  ....

Because playing paintball in a low gravity bouncy castle the size of a gymnasium requires a high level of strategy and skill 🤦‍♂️.

To be honest I played Unreal Tournament for a couple of years and, even though I had a lot of fun doing it, after a while it just got old. Unfortunately, in my opinion, Conclave with all its wondrous graphics advancements is mechanically just a slower crap version of UT at this point.

While I enjoyed UT I just simply grew out of it over time but I think it is sorta sad that newer players don't really have anything really like that to enjoy. (Bunny hop in BF are you kidding me?) Conclave is probably the closest in the freedom of movement but right now there just aren't enough players. New players come in and instantly get spawn killed by vets who are just overly excited to finally see someone online to fight.

As for reaching the potential it is capable of at this point they would have to just make a completely separate game with dedicated servers. Something where neither side (PvP/PvE) is caused undue harm by the nerfs or buffs from the other and with better maps that promote improved tactics, strategy, skill as well as the majority of parkour mechanics that players simply don't even use. (There is a lot more potential than just double jumping all day back and forth trying to get the enemy to line up in your sights)

I think if they released it as a different game they could break away from some of the overly negative hype that has generated through the last several years as well as put everyone on equal footing at day one so new players are more interested in it.

I know I would give it a try for a few days at least just to see how it turned out.

 

 

 

[Blazmatic]

the hek is a very powerful shotgun pve, in pvp it does 2 damage per pellet

also the movement system makes it near impossible to actually hit a player making it more unfun than anything, this isn't titanfall 2 where the movement system had pvp in mind this is a pve game first and foremost and is not like destiny with the pve/pvp aspects of the game.

if they introduced necramech pvp or I heard somewhere (I forgot where) a moba style gamemode with adult tenno using the focus schools which both I like the idea of as they both sound pretty cool they just need to tune the rewards to make it better than you know 50 gun skins

[vegetosayajin]

Most people don't want this PvP in the game.
I assure you if it's done right it will be a thriving game mode.

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, vegetosayajin said:

I assure you if it's done right it will be a thriving game mode.

Considering how many different iterations of PvP there have been over the years (all of which have failed to gain any sort of traction), I think more is needed than trite "assurances".

[vegetosayajin]

8 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Considering how many different iterations of PvP there have been over the years (all of which have failed to gain any sort of traction), I think more is needed than trite "assurances".

All of them bad, because they are trying to make wf work in pvp, not just make a good pvp mode with warframe skins.
Think about quake. Good maps, couple of weapons and everything else is skill.
Simplicity is sometimes the better choice.

[DroopingPuppy]

I did join Warframe for PvE. I don't think that PvP should be removed from the game, but I don't have any interest for it either. Lunaro seems interesting, but I have no chance to ever play it.

[Corvid]

28 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

All of them bad, because they are trying to make wf work in pvp, not just make a good pvp mode with warframe skins.
Think about quake. Good maps, couple of weapons and everything else is skill.
Simplicity is sometimes the better choice.

At that point, would it even be Warframe? Why even bother with the pretence?

How mechanically removed does the mode have to get before you accept that "Warframe PvP" isn't going to work?

[vegetosayajin]

4 minutes ago, Corvid said:

At that point, would it even be Warframe?

Yes, it will look like warframe. :D

 

 

4 minutes ago, Corvid said:

How mechanically removed does the mode have to get 

Very, like an actual pvp. :D

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, vegetosayajin said:

Yes, it will look like warframe. :D

Warframe is more than just an aesthetic.

3 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

Very, like an actual pvp. :D

And this is why people don't like PvP loudmouths. They don't actually care if the mode fits the game.

[vegetosayajin]

9 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Warframe is more than just an aesthetic.

"Fashionframe is endgame" meme disagrees with you.

tbh I don't agree with that statement either, but it's a big big part of the game.

9 minutes ago, Corvid said:

And this is why people don't like PvP loudmouths. They don't actually care if the mode fits the game.

I thought we are discussing ways to make the mode be playable, not if it fits the game?

If it is the second one - movement system, powers and melee make this near impossible task.
Maybe there is a genius balance idea that will make them work in the future, but as you stated before - it has been many failed iterations with that good will in mind and it was always a fail. 

[SneakyErvin]

On 2020-12-09 at 6:45 PM, Fl_3 said:

Why do you think you can compare mission stats after you finish one if it wasn't so that people could gain some kind of feeling of superiority from them? 

That isnt PvP though since there is no actual reward (better loot or simply stomping the other guy to pulp) behind it, it is a simple stat screen like most games have, so you see who leeches, heals, tanks, dpses. Saying it is PvP is like saying WoW dungeons are PvP because you are provided with end of run stats. Even though you have distinct classes that cannot perform the same in all categories. You will always have the healer healing most, the tank soaking up most damage and the dpsers doing most damage. And in WF that just comes down to the frame you use and what they can do. The game is also handling multiples of the same frame very badly, since skills cannot stack, so it is first come first serve in many cases, which further reduces the chance for proper competative play in missions. It is competition based on RNG if you stack a group full of Saryns, 3 of them will practically do nothing, the same goes for Enox and others.

I guess if you make your own personal events with your own house rules it could be a thing, but those arent core gameplay rules so wouldnt classify as "Warframe is all about PvP".

Do people seriously pat their back and think they win when they sit at 90% damage done after a defense with an AoE frame? I know I dont.

"Man I really showed that scrub Trinity who is the AoE alpha around here!" 

[Corvid]

11 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

I thought we are discussing ways to make the mode be playable, not if it fits the game?

When one discusses these matters, it's usually with the assumption that mechanics from the PvE will carry over. Otherwise, you're not really making a Warframe PvP mode.

If your answer to the question of how to make PvP work in Warframe is essentially "Make Unreal Tournament with a Warframe skin", the question then becomes "Why not just play Unreal Tournament?".

[vegetosayajin]

3 minutes ago, Corvid said:

"Why not just play Unreal Tournament?".

I'll give you a couple of reasons:
1. Because you can have both in one game?
2. It will be a great time killer if you are sick of everything else in wf(or even become your main reason to play wf, who knows)
3. UT has no wf visuals and costumisation options (many people like it)
4. There is a thing I noticed - people try to make wf competitive in a number of ways: who can be the best at driftframe, who will do the most damage etc, they pull numbers from the endgame stats, but in the main game these things rarely matter at all. So this will be a level plain field to see that competitive drive in action.
5. grofit?

It may work and it may fail as well, but it will be way easier to balance and implement then this things we have now imo.
That's my thoughts, it will never happen tho, so stopping keyboard battling. ^^

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

1. Because you can have both in one game?

So instead of having 2 separate good games it is better to have one mediocre one that does two different things?

Cause I don't see Gradius players dropping it for Wyrmius or Street Fighter fans dropping SF for Frame Fighter.

[vegetosayajin]

5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Street Fighter fans dropping SF for Frame Fighter.

I tried.Not enough people because it was implemented badly.
Give it to everyone free, not for simaris(the most annoying grind in the game) rep and make it a good copy of SF and I will play it all day long.
Or even better, give it an option to play agains AI, problem solved.

[ReaverKane]

On 2020-12-07 at 5:56 PM, (NSW)VenTheWeeb said:

it seems like a lot of people don't want Conclave to improve and/or just want it removed from the game completely. like I get that pvp games always have more toxic players but pve games can have them so Warframe already has those players like sure you can argue that it will get worse because somehow improved conclave = attracting more of these players but is that really gonna ruin your experience like you can just mute them. 

Because, honestly, at this point, conclave is just a waste of resources for the devs.
They clearly aren't going to rework their architecture to include their own dedicated servers, which would be the only way to make conclave not S#&$ (and fix the host migration issues too), so it will always be a laggy mess.

Personally, i would enjoy Warframe's PvP. Some of the most fun i had were the snowball fights on Tennobaum. I also loved to play S4League and GunZ in the past, so warframe PvP would be much better.

[TheKurtiStryke]

On 2020-12-07 at 7:01 PM, Hearsay said:

Because very few people who play Warframe enjoy PvP.  And considering that PvP takes a lot of constant care and attention

Not to mention all the toxicity,hate and rage that comes with PvP mode in general, and this is why warframe community is quite "docile" compared to other communities, because the game is focussed and based on PvE.

 

so, yeah, PvP for me is a big "no"

[YazMatazO]

Actually... for all the talk about toxicity in Warframe, from my experience in the Conclave I can safely say that the people that actually play WF's pvp are not toxic at all. They enjoy it. And don't even bring that stuff that if you just take the Ignis you win because once you enter the higher tiers you will repeatedly be dog-piled on for using weapons like that. It's the pve community that I've repeatedly observed being toxic AF and the people that play pvp, as few as those might be, are quite chill in comparison.