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Suggestion - Give dedicated slots in parazon for Serration, Hornet Strike and Point Blank


NecroPed

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People regularly discuss the problems with essential mods and melee being far stronger than primary/secondary weapons at the moment. I feel this may be a good way to kill two bird with one stone. 

If each weapon has a dedicated slot in parazon for damage it opens up the slot on the weapons for more customization, while isolating the most essential mods and keeping damage progression. And even allowing primed serration/hornet strike to potentially join the fray without concern for just being another essential primed mod, which could also help bring primary/secondary weapons up to par with melee.

 

And while I'm not against Pressure Point being included in this, I feel it's not necessary given the current strength of melee and will push melee further up in power. (A possible solution to having melee included is adding more harder content, for example Steel Path modifiers, but that's a separate discussion I think) But I am more than happy to discuss.

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In my opinion, the best solution would be a set of conditional mods that compete with with the base damage mods, a bit like Condition Overload.
Here are a few examples :

  •  +275% damage but only on headshots.
  • +15% damage per successive hits on a same target (maybe with a cap ?).
  • +330% damage, -100% total critical chance.
  • On weapon draw : +275% damage for 3s.

With these alternative mods with sighly higher stats but various working conditions, the choise isn't always obvious and the damage mod you choose will depend on the situation and your playstyle. You can use all of them if you want but if they all are additive it has diminishing returns and automatically balance itself.

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1 hour ago, NecroPed said:

If each weapon has a dedicated slot in parazon for damage it opens up the slot on the weapons for more customization, while isolating the most essential mods

Sure it will open up more customization but I fear the majority of mods that would take this place is mods that are just flat out more damage. and they would thus become the new "mandatory" mods.

1 hour ago, lukinu_u said:

In my opinion, the best solution would be a set of conditional mods that compete with with the base damage mods, a bit like Condition Overload.
Here are a few examples :

  •  +275% damage but only on headshots.
  • +15% damage per successive hits on a same target (maybe with a cap ?).
  • +330% damage, -100% total critical chance.
  • On weapon draw : +275% damage for 3s.

With these alternative mods with sighly higher stats but various working conditions, the choise isn't always obvious and the damage mod you choose will depend on the situation and your playstyle. You can use all of them if you want but if they all are additive it has diminishing returns and automatically balance itself.

I like this idea more and I would say that the amalgam mods also is a step in right direction. Serration could even be removed from the game if we had 5 different serration mods with slightly different secondary effects.

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5 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

In my opinion, the best solution would be a set of conditional mods that compete with with the base damage mods, a bit like Condition Overload.
Here are a few examples :

  •  +275% damage but only on headshots.
  • +15% damage per successive hits on a same target (maybe with a cap ?).
  • +330% damage, -100% total critical chance.
  • On weapon draw : +275% damage for 3s.

With these alternative mods with sighly higher stats but various working conditions, the choise isn't always obvious and the damage mod you choose will depend on the situation and your playstyle. You can use all of them if you want but if they all are additive it has diminishing returns and automatically balance itself.

While, I do really like the idea of more mods like that(And the specific ideas you posted), I feel it's going to be harder to balance and truly add choice. And more often than not I think the mods would be used alongside serration for an even greater increase rather than instead of. I can safely say I'd be swapping out Augur Pact (90% damage) for one of the 'not' serration/hornet strike mods rather than the hornet strike in most cases purely because the damage increase is going to be substantially higher to justify a hornet strike replacement and augur pact could be sacrificed while gaining more than the mod provides. 

I'm not against this, but I'm just really not sure how it will play out and if it will give the intended effect. Sure, people are often using either pressure point or condition overload(I'm going to guess more often CO), but in some of my builds, I still use both. And if I don't use both I'm not usually actually choosing one over the other because I have a real choice in front of me, I'm using condition overload on most builds because it IS better than primed pressure point in those circumstances(if not most?), so did it really solve the essential mod problem? 

There's also always the chance of making the essential mod redundant by offering varying options that are generally better to justify their place alongside the damage mod.

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il y a 23 minutes, NecroPed a dit :

While, I do really like the idea of more mods like that(And the specific ideas you posted), I feel it's going to be harder to balance and truly add choice. And more often than not I think the mods would be used alongside serration for an even greater increase rather than instead of. I can safely say I'd be swapping out Augur Pact (90% damage) for one of the 'not' serration/hornet strike mods rather than the hornet strike in most cases purely because the damage increase is going to be substantially higher to justify a hornet strike replacement and augur pact could be sacrificed while gaining more than the mod provides. 

Using Augur Impact is generally a bad idea in the first place, because of diminishing returns, and same would go for these mods in the vast majority of situation.
 

il y a 26 minutes, NecroPed a dit :

I'm not against this, but I'm just really not sure how it will play out and if it will give the intended effect. Sure, people are often using either pressure point or condition overload(I'm going to guess more often CO), but in some of my builds, I still use both. And if I don't use both I'm not usually actually choosing one over the other because I have a real choice in front of me, I'm using condition overload on most builds because it IS better than primed pressure point in those circumstances(if not most?), so did it really solve the essential mod problem? 

Using both Condition Overload AND Pressure Point is sub-optimal in pretty much all situation. You are still allowed to do it and it's not an issue, because you trade raw power for versatility (trading one slot for a spare wheel to replace CO against status immune targets), which is a kind of diversity. As long as all replacements don't have too high value so they always act this way, it's definitely find in my opinion.

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For consistency, Pressure Point needs to be here too. And you can't forget things like the archgun and archmelee base damage mods as well.

It's a mixed opinion, but I personally like power creep. And in terms of removing "mandatory mods", I think this is the best suggestion I've seen so far, as it values the player's current investment, and prevents DE from messing things up/shadow balancing.

But I will say, if you don't prevent damage, elemental damage, multishot, melee range, melee attack speed, and crit stats from going into this newly freed up slot (all other mods are fine since they aren't on literally 95% of all builds like the above), that's probably what's going there. Which either way is fine with me, but we already have one restricted slot with the exilus, so it starts looking like the game is removing player choice.

And all of this needs to be set-in-stone week one. No riven style nerfing, and no buffs the devs will regret a couple weeks later like they did with Helminth.

6 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

In my opinion, the best solution would be a set of conditional mods that compete with with the base damage mods, a bit like Condition Overload.

Most of these are very niche, and won't help guns compete with melee. Condition Overload is conditional, but once you meet the very easy condition, it's almost impossible to not benefit from it's massive boost. You'd need mods like...

  • Scoring a critical hit once every 2 seconds grants X% gun damage, decaying by 5 stacks every 5 seconds. 20 max stacks
    • (The cooldown is to prevent high fire rate and multishot guns from breaking the balance.)
  • Shooting an enemy with a DoT status effect once every 0.5 seconds refreshes all status effects, and increases active DoT damage by 100%.
    • (Additive with itself.)
  • Poignant Strike - +220% crit chance, x2 while Overloaded. 4x damage and ammo consumption while Overloaded. (IMO the reloading and ammo consumption should balance it out like how the reduced attack speed balances melee heavy attacks.)
    • (Point Strike buffed to +220%) Activate Overloaded by holding reload until you switch modes or something.
  • Etc...
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il y a 3 minutes, KitMeHarder a dit :

Condition Overload is conditional, but once you meet the very easy condition, it's almost impossible to not benefit from it's massive boost. You'd need mods like...

I think Condition Overload is badly designed exactly for this reason. The very easy condition is so easy to meet, that Condition Overload completely make Primed Pressure Point obsolete and there is no more choice involved here.

But since you said you like power creep, we just have extremly different opinions on that.

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28 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

I think Condition Overload is badly designed exactly for this reason. The very easy condition is so easy to meet, that Condition Overload completely make Primed Pressure Point obsolete and there is no more choice involved here.

It's only useful because it's "easy" to get, but you still have to build for it. You either have to purposely build for a weapon to prime, or you have to build and maintain Weeping Wounds. (Yes it does more damage at 2 statuses, but you have to account for all that damage you didn't do before then. And odds are your melee only does 4 status max, usually with bad IPS dispositions (for when it's not worth it to prime enemies)).

Something like your suggestion for, not even a double Serration 3 seconds after swap, on the other hand is worthless. And the headshot mod has so many ways to be dead weight, and kill a weapon's usefulness. Of which I have seen stuff like that kill viability in other games like Borderlands the Presequel's Aurelia for example.

I need to work for my power whether it be in the arsenal or in mission, but you can't make it so easy for the game (and how it's played) to take it away from you.

PPP has been a subpar option for a long time. And the way you fix it (the way its been fixed), is that you add/rework it into something like Sacrificial Pressure. Condition Overload and Sacrifical Pressure are competitive with one another, not PPP, and that's why you don't see PPP in builds.

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Il y a 13 heures, KitMeHarder a dit :

It's only useful because it's "easy" to get, but you still have to build for it. You either have to purposely build for a weapon to prime, or you have to build and maintain Weeping Wounds. (Yes it does more damage at 2 statuses, but you have to account for all that damage you didn't do before then. And odds are your melee only does 4 status max, usually with bad IPS dispositions (for when it's not worth it to prime enemies)).

That's what I meant when I said we had different opinions.

For you, something is only useful if it's reliable and easy to use. Which make sense you if you seek power an don't care about having useless items in a game.

But if you want some balance (which provide some diversity and a funnier long term experience), if there are multiple options they all need to have pros and cons to compete with each others. A great way to achieve that is by making alternative options stronger if used at their max potential but harder or more condition dependent, so they aren't just THE way to go. Mecha Pulse is a great example of that, it's super strong but very few players use it because it's extremly unreliable unless you can always find and kill the marked target.
From there, you have 3 things to consider when balancing a mod like that :

  • Ease of the condition : harder or less reliable condition should reward the player more (Mecha Pulse)
  • Duration of the buff : super small duration can balance a strong effect that is easy to achieve (Motus Setup)
  • Strength of the effect : ajusted depending on the two above, both easy strigger and long duration works if the value is low (Laser Sight)

Now if you take Condition Overload as example, it has an extremly easy condition (and fast to build up), and long buff duration, but is also extremly strong for no actual reason.
I think it should match Primed Pressure Point strength at around 3-4 status, so you actually NEED to rely on status to deal damage and the mod is no longer the mandary go to option for all melee, regardless of your playstyle.
 

Il y a 13 heures, KitMeHarder a dit :

Something like your suggestion for, not even a double Serration 3 seconds after swap, on the other hand is worthless. And the headshot mod has so many ways to be dead weight, and kill a weapon's usefulness. Of which I have seen stuff like that kill viability in other games like Borderlands the Presequel's Aurelia for example.

I need to work for my power whether it be in the arsenal or in mission, but you can't make it so easy for the game (and how it's played) to take it away from you.

What you see as a "viability kill" actually encourage skill and player progression (not loadout progression). If you can have a mod that is 100% stronger if you land all headshots but you cannot, it encourage to practice and gain the ability to land headshots, and it also act as a skill barrier to achieve great power, which rewards players for their effort ingame instead of their time spent farming.
 

Il y a 13 heures, KitMeHarder a dit :

PPP has been a subpar option for a long time. And the way you fix it (the way its been fixed), is that you add/rework it into something like Sacrificial Pressure. Condition Overload and Sacrifical Pressure are competitive with one another, not PPP, and that's why you don't see PPP in builds.

That's actually wrong.
Condition Overload is just better is all situations EXEPT on status immune targets (which are very few) in which case Primed Pressure Point is the way to go UNLESS it's a sentient and you're using a base damage buff (such as Chroma) which make the base damage stat on your wepaon pointless, so you use Sacrificial Pressure for the bonus against sentients instead of another non-base damage mod to boost your DPS.

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7 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

Which make sense you if you seek power an don't care about having useless items in a game.

Items and mods are different, and power creep is not exclusive to invalidating an item with a new one. When I brought up power creep, I was literally talking about having an extra mod slot since base damage would be on the Parazon. 

And there's nothing you can do in a progression based looter shooter to prevent items from falling to the wayside. But just like how you don't use Intensify over Umbral Intensify, you don't use PPP over Sacrificial Pressure.

Trying to strong arm niche options in a progression based game like Warframe is just going to ruin it's identity. Suggestions like yours are best left for linear, and often competitive, games that don't give players this much freedom. Which has a place in those games, and I find it fun, but it won't be in Warframe.

7 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

I think it should match Primed Pressure Point strength at around 3-4 status, so you actually NEED to rely on status to deal damage and the mod is no longer the mandary go to option for all melee, regardless of your playstyle.

You'd make it completely worthless. Why would I work at all for a bonus I can have passively instead? (Bar priming, which why even at that point?) 

And CO is far from mandatory. You don't use it in most heavy build, you don't use it if you don't have Naramon, etc... In most of the game it isn't worth it to use CO with it's opportunity cost.

7 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

If you can have a mod that is 100% stronger if you land all headshots but you cannot, it encourage to practice and gain the ability to land headshots

Firstly, your headshot mod increases damage by about ~42% compared to Serration. And even if your enemy has a head (or an easily accessible one), more often than not they will be dead before you can even line up the shot in coop. And no, I don't want that to be even slightly removed from Warframe as it is at current.

7 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

in which case Primed Pressure Point is the way to go UNLESS it's a sentient and you're using a base damage buff

You're forgetting the buff it gives to Sacrificial Steel. Any build not using Naramon, is largely not using CO.

7 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

Mecha Pulse is a great example of that

The Mecha set is strong, but much like the new arcanes, it's flawed in that it is 100% useless if you don't have a Kubrow. Switch to a Sentinel for a mission and now your Aura and a mod slot does nothing. That's the same problem that your very niche suggestions largely bring, without having the Mecha set's power to compensate.

Not to mention very few frames build for armor through mods anyway.

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Just commenting to say I plan to come back and discuss this further. Trying to give as much time to processing the responses as I can, while extending the time between posting this and responding so I can have somewhat of a fresh look on the ideas and responses. 


Also appreciate the discussion already, it's helpful in finding out if I'm thinking in line with what a player would want. 

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