Arcane Rage vs Arcane Precision

[TnaneverRisen]

Arcane Rage - 15% chance of headshot for 180% bonus primary weapon damage, 24 sec
Arcane Precision - 100% chance of headshot for 300% bonus secondary weapon damage, 18 sec

What is the justification for the secondary arcane to be so much stronger than the primary arcane?  Many secondaries are already overpowered compared to primaries, so why should their damage arcane be so much better as well?

Both arcanes last long enough to where their uptime is essentially unlimited.  If Arcane Precision damage bonus/chance isn't weakened very significantly, then at least the uptime should be severely reduced.  For example, instead of 18 seconds, it could last 2 seconds, which would require players to consistently get headshots to keep the bonus.  Players who don't want to have a huge duration penalty should instead be fine with a very large damage reduction.

[krc473]

33 minutes ago, TnaneverRisen said:

If Arcane Precision damage bonus/chance isn't weakened very significantly, then at least the uptime should be severely reduced

Why not buff the other one instead? They might as well have matching stats, and surely it’s better to use the higher one.

[TnaneverRisen]

1 hour ago, krc473 said:

Why not buff the other one instead? They might as well have matching stats, and surely it’s better to use the higher one.

I'd be fine with that too, but I think both would be overpowered compared to most other arcanes in that case.

[(NSW)Gamma83]

Il y a 3 heures, TnaneverRisen a dit :

Arcane Rage - 15% chance of headshot for 180% bonus primary weapon damage, 24 sec
Arcane Precision - 100% chance of headshot for 300% bonus secondary weapon damage, 18 sec

What is the justification for the secondary arcane to be so much stronger than the primary arcane?  Many secondaries are already overpowered compared to primaries, so why should their damage arcane be so much better as well?

Both arcanes last long enough to where their uptime is essentially unlimited.  If Arcane Precision damage bonus/chance isn't weakened very significantly, then at least the uptime should be severely reduced.  For example, instead of 18 seconds, it could last 2 seconds, which would require players to consistently get headshots to keep the bonus.  Players who don't want to have a huge duration penalty should instead be fine with a very large damage reduction.

the "justification" is simple actually , primary are way stronger than secondary weapons.
i think that's pretty much the only reasons why.

Secondaries are underwhelming compared to primaries usually.
they are rarely used (except kuva nukor and even kuva nukor is quiet weak compared to most good primaries : ignis , kuva bramma , any kind of sniper rifle etc...and even kuva nukor is mostly used for inflicting status to increase another weapon's damage rather than used for it's own damage on high level enemies)
They aren't "bad" or anything , just weaker than primaries,  and even with that difference in % between those two arcanes , the only arcane that is seeing use between those two is rage (especially for sniper rifle)
Personally the only time i use arcanes for secondaries is for mesa. 


Making the power gap between primaries and secondaries even wider by buffing only rage arcane wouldn't help at all.
(also the simple fact that % are exponentially stronger on a weapon with higher base damage which are primaries case)

And even more so, for sortie and steel path, the melee weapons are way stronger than primaries aswell in the current meta (and secondaries are mostly status inflicters there rather than damage dealer) .

[KitMeHarder]

3 hours ago, TnaneverRisen said:

What is the justification for the secondary arcane to be so much stronger than the primary arcane?

Because the arcanes are based off the the weapon's base damage mod. Rifle, shotgun, and melee is 165% so they get 180%. Pistol is 220%, so they get 300%.

And you can refresh Rage, you can't refresh Precision. 

Things aren't equal in this game anyway. Rifles get 150% crit chance, shotguns get 90%. Everthing gets 90% elemental damage, but archguns get 120%. Etc...

So it's just DE throwing stats at the wall. Same with how there is 2 pistol damage arcanes, no archgun arcanes, etc... 

[TnaneverRisen]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Gamma83 said:

the "justification" is simple actually , primary are way stronger than secondary weapons.
i think that's pretty much the only reasons why.

Secondaries are underwhelming compared to primaries usually.
they are rarely used (except kuva nukor and even kuva nukor is quiet weak compared to most good primaries : ignis , kuva bramma , any kind of sniper rifle etc...and even kuva nukor is mostly used for inflicting status to increase another weapon's damage rather than used for it's own damage on high level enemies)
They aren't "bad" or anything , just weaker than primaries,  and even with that difference in % between those two arcanes , the only arcane that is seeing use between those two is rage (especially for sniper rifle)
Personally the only time i use arcanes for secondaries is for mesa. 


Making the power gap between primaries and secondaries even wider by buffing only rage arcane wouldn't help at all.
(also the simple fact that % are exponentially stronger on a weapon with higher base damage which are primaries case)

And even more so, for sortie and steel path, the melee weapons are way stronger than primaries aswell in the current meta (and secondaries are mostly status inflicters there rather than damage dealer) .

I don't think that's justification, because there are many examples of secondaries being better than their supposed primary counterparts, and other primaries in general.

If "secondaries are weaker than primaries" is really the justification, then all secondaries need to be rebalanced to ensure that primaries are always better by default, otherwise it's logically the case that Arcane Precision is too powerful.

[TnaneverRisen]

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

Because the arcanes are based off the the weapon's base damage mod. Rifle, shotgun, and melee is 165% so they get 180%. Pistol is 220%, so they get 300%.

And you can refresh Rage, you can't refresh Precision. 

Things aren't equal in this game anyway. Rifles get 150% crit chance, shotguns get 90%. Everthing gets 90% elemental damage, but archguns get 120%. Etc...

So it's just DE throwing stats at the wall. Same with how there is 2 pistol damage arcanes, no archgun arcanes, etc... 

It's true that DE's stats do seem to be random in general, which should be fixed.

Regarding refreshing - with Precision being at 100%, it's not exactly a big deal for the lack of refreshing.  You have to have refresh for Rage because the % chance is so low compared to Precision. 

What do you mean by "rifle...is 165% so they get 180%", and "Pistol is 220% so they get 300%"?  How does that justify a much stronger Precision vs a much weaker Rage?

[(NSW)Gamma83]

il y a 11 minutes, TnaneverRisen a dit :

I don't think that's justification, because there are many examples of secondaries being better than their supposed primary counterparts, and other primaries in general.

If "secondaries are weaker than primaries" is really the justification, then all secondaries need to be rebalanced to ensure that primaries are always better by default, otherwise it's logically the case that Arcane Precision is too powerful.

it is one of the justification 
(as well as mod %  as described by kitmeharder and the differences between being refreshable and the différence between  1% for a weapon with 1000 base damage and 10% for a weapon with 50 base damage , the stronger is still the 1% in the end rather than the 10%)

also , no , secondaries are never better than primaries (except compared to bad primaries , but usually those are almost never used, and even more so for bad secondaries)
i don't see much example of secondary you can reliably use on steel path enemies whereas for primaries most good primaries are usuable there.
(and especially melee once again but that's another topic)
you say there is many , but for high level content i see almost none (as a damage dealer purpose atleast)

once again , arcane rage is very often used whereas arcane précision is almost never used aside for low level content.
Also , an arcane being refreshable is way more important than you would think ,in my opinion.
(arcane guardian for example took a huge hit as soon as it wasn't refreshable anymore)

[TnaneverRisen]

Just now, (NSW)Gamma83 said:

it is one of the justification 
(as well as mod %  as described by kitmeharder and the differences between being refreshable and the différence between  1% for a weapon with 1000 base damage and 10% for a weapon with 50 base damage , the stronger is still the 1% in the end rather than the 10%)

also , no , secondaries are never better than primaries (except compared to bad primaries , but usually those are almost never used, and even more so for bad secondaries)
i don't see much example of secondary you can reliably use on steel path enemies whereas for primaries most good primaries are usuable there.
(and especially melee once again but that's another topic)

Your first point just illustrates the balance issue with % mods that comes with fast vs slow weapons (this is why games should balance things by including attack speeds in calculations).  I think that's really a separate issue that should be fixed.

For your second point, there are many secondaries that are better than "bad primaries", of which there are several.  A very common example of this is kitguns.  There are also secondaries that are better than "good" primaries.  This seems like another general balance issue that the game needs to address.

And yes, overpowered melee is even another balance issue to address.

[(NSW)Gamma83]

il y a 18 minutes, TnaneverRisen a dit :

Your first point just illustrates the balance issue with % mods that comes with fast vs slow weapons (this is why games should balance things by including attack speeds in calculations).  I think that's really a separate issue that should be fixed.

For your second point, there are many secondaries that are better than "bad primaries", of which there are several.  A very common example of this is kitguns.  There are also secondaries that are better than "good" primaries.  This seems like another general balance issue that the game needs to address.

And yes, overpowered melee is even another balance issue to address.

not really since secondaries aren't necessarily faster than primaries.

also , of course there would be bad weapons in every kind of weapon, but primaries are stronger than secondaries that's a fact.
you can compare any good primaries to even the best secondaries , they pale in comparison.
Also , it's a very flawed opinion to want to make every secondary weaker than they already are and weaker than the weakest primary....they are already not very used at the moment , why making it even more so ?

In high level content people almost never use secondaries , if either primaries or secondaries should be buffed , they should buff secondaries to be atleast useable for something else than status in steel path
i don't think secondaries should be necessarily weaker than primaries , atleast not as weak as they currently are compared to primaries but at the moment it is what it is , widening that gap even more wouldn't be wise in my opinion otherwise secondaries wouldn't even see play any more at all.
+ once again , you are comparing an arcane that people never use aside for mesa (arcane precision)  compared to an arcane people over-used for every sniper rifle or any good primaries.
what's good in buffing something overused over something never used ?

but yea anyway, before making the primary vs secondary war, you should feel more concerned about ranged vs melee.
Melee makes most ranged weapons pointless in steel path after all. (except good primary , especially on mirage or other warframe that can increase their damage output)

 

[TnaneverRisen]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Gamma83 said:

not really since secondaries aren't necessarily faster than primaries.

also , of course there would be bad weapons in every kind of weapon, but primaries are stronger than secondaries that's a fact.
you can compare any good primaries to even the best secondaries , they pale in comparison.
Also , it's a very flawed opinion to want to make every secondary weaker than they already are and weaker than the weakest primary....they are already not very used at the moment , why making it even more so ?

In high level content people almost never use secondaries , if either primaries or secondaries should be buffed , they should buff secondaries to be atleast useable for something else than status in steel path
i don't think secondaries should be necessarily weaker than primaries , atleast not as weak as they currently are compared to primaries but at the moment it is what it is , widening that gap even more wouldn't be wise in my opinion otherwise secondaries wouldn't even see play any more at all.
+ once again , you are comparing an arcane that people never use aside for mesa (arcane precision)  compared to an arcane people over-used for every sniper rifle or any good primaries.
what's good in buffing something overused over something never used ?

but yea anyway, before making the primary vs secondary war, you should feel more concerned about ranged vs melee.
Melee makes most ranged weapons pointless in steel path after all. (except good primary , especially on mirage or other warframe that can increase their damage output)

 

It doesn't matter if some secondaries aren't faster than some primaries.  The fact that the % proc is the same no matter the weapon speed, means that faster firing weapons get an unfair advantage with % proc mods.  The fact that Arcane Precision is 100% means secondary weapons, whether slow or fast, get a better bonus than primary weapons that have only 15% proc chance.  The imbalance between slow vs fast weapons is simply in addition to the imbalance of primary vs secondary weapons and arcanes.

I don't know what game you're playing.  Many secondaries are great, and better than many primaries.  Even after the big nerf, secondary catchmoon, for example, is stronger than maybe 85% of all primaries.

There is no primary vs secondary "war" - I'm simply pointing out there is no reason for the secondary arcane to be extremely more powerful than the primary arcane.  There are other issues obviously, but this is the issue that I'm pointing out in the thread.

Again, I agree with the overpowered melee issue, but that's separate.

[(NSW)Gamma83]

you keep saying "many example of secondaries better than primaries" and then only keep saying "catchmoon" as the sole example because you can't think of any despite saying "many"  xD
also , no i got a catchmoon with 6 forma on it and a super riven , the only instance i uses it is for index and the big spiders boss in vox solaris's quests (even for the eidolon i simply go rubico prime with riven).
and not even due to to it's power , because as i mostly solo , i needed a secondary for radiation and impact status for the two spiders xD
in any steel path mission it's pretty bad, and yes i'am playing warframe i should be the one asking "do you even play higher level content than lv 60 enemies ? " 

well we each got our opinion on the matter, but i can't see any good secondary for damage-dealing in high level mission personally compared to what you are saying , and once again you are comparing an overused arcane with refreshability and want it even stronger that what it currently is compared to a never-used arcane....
at the very least the other arcane should also be refreshable and have just as much time (since both of which are better on the other) but then again it would simply increase power creep , enemies are already too weak as it is.

well no need to continue anyway we would go in circle ^^" 
have a good day.
 

[ShortCat]

17 hours ago, TnaneverRisen said:

Many secondaries are already overpowered compared to primaries

Primaries are stronger than secondaries.

[TnaneverRisen]

4 hours ago, (NSW)Gamma83 said:

you keep saying "many example of secondaries better than primaries" and then only keep saying "catchmoon" as the sole example because you can't think of any despite saying "many"  xD
also , no i got a catchmoon with 6 forma on it and a super riven , the only instance i uses it is for index and the big spiders boss in vox solaris's quests (even for the eidolon i simply go rubico prime with riven).
and not even due to to it's power , because as i mostly solo , i needed a secondary for radiation and impact status for the two spiders xD
in any steel path mission it's pretty bad, and yes i'am playing warframe i should be the one asking "do you even play higher level content than lv 60 enemies ? " 

well we each got our opinion on the matter, but i can't see any good secondary for damage-dealing in high level mission personally compared to what you are saying , and once again you are comparing an overused arcane with refreshability and want it even stronger that what it currently is compared to a never-used arcane....
at the very least the other arcane should also be refreshable and have just as much time (since both of which are better on the other) but then again it would simply increase power creep , enemies are already too weak as it is.

well no need to continue anyway we would go in circle ^^" 
have a good day.
 

Uh...no.  I mentioned "catchmoon" literally one time.  One.  Time.

You're also a crazy person if you think only catchmoon is great.  Go to the overframe.gg tier list.  Most of the top two tier secondaries are better than almost all of the 3rd and lower tier primaries.  Just a random example, out of MANY: Atomos.  Do you think even Dread or Stradavar Prime is better at killing faster in general?  LOL.  How about comparing secondary gaze or rattleguts to most primaries?  What % of primaries do you think can match Kuva Brakk at close range heavy damage?

[Redpaws]

Arcane Precision is fine as it is. It is a very strong arcane, but also limited to only secondaries, which is the trade-off, compared to say... Arcane Avenger, that's universally useful. Also don't think it's strong to the point of being OP.

Arcange Rage though... I am perfectly fine with the damage value, but the proc requirement needs to be changed. Either way higher (40-100% chance on headshot) or be changed entirely. Like... 15-25% chance on crit or status proc, or 100% on headshot kill. It is way too hard to consistently keep up as it is currently, in my opinion, especially if you're using a slow firing primary. Arcane Primary Charger is easier to keep up even though it has half the duration, due to a more generic requirement (easier to get 3~ melee kills on average than 6-7~ headshots on average), and it also has a much more potent +300% damage buff. Arcane Rage should be a lot easier to keep up considering it is the weaker of the two.

[kwlingo]

Primary are usually much strong in DPS than secondary. Thats why. I do see your point.

[fr4gb4ll]

On 2020-12-08 at 8:39 PM, TnaneverRisen said:

What is the justification for the secondary arcane to be so much stronger than the primary arcane?  Many secondaries are already overpowered compared to primaries, so why should their damage arcane be so much better as well?

the justification is: "we didn't do the math around this (and other) concept of the game"

there are more of such 'inconsistencies' in the game, all over the whole arsenal (melee and heavy weapons included) also with the frame mods and the companions or when it comes to our 'vehicles'... but that are all different stories (though with the same background, namely the lack of 'foresight' ^^)

On 2020-12-08 at 11:31 PM, (NSW)Gamma83 said:

the "justification" is simple actually , primary are way stronger than secondary weapons.
i think that's pretty much the only reasons why.

though it might been this way years ago and still is with some primaries, it's not true for many weapons nowadays... honestly, DE would do much better if they let us just choose 4 weapons out of the full arsenal, regardless of what typ and also reduce the amount of redundant mods and arcanes, by just giving them a resonable stat-value - even if that means making some things more powerfull and others weaker... this multiple 'parallel' system they created at the beginning and upon which build even more when they let us equip AW-guns on the ground, is getting unnecessary complicated with every new mod, arcane and even weapon itself. ofc, this would also mean they need to (finally) rework the whole arsenal to bring it to a 'modern' standard - the idea with the riven mods ended up as a shoot in the foot, as we all know by know... so maybe a bit of extra work really IS the better way here?