We really need a auction house for non-riven items.

[(NSW)Rafa-el]

hace 17 horas, Battle.Mage dijo:

some soup ... and what the hell does it have to do with democratic?
if someone is unable to use google, how can they go to the bathroom without their parents? these are basics.

You and ppl dedicated to market and sell and buy to newbies have so much to lost with a fair AH, where all ppl can see prices on fly and sell stuff.

it’s a problem, indeed.

[Captain_Rocket505]

2 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

Apparently this is wrong, according to the OP a third of the steam userbase are active users of Warframe market already.

 

55 minutes ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Their numbers are spurious. 

Warframe.market would also show all of the active users from the consoles, and doesn't take into consideration that non-Steam PC users exist. 

Since that's been repeatedly pointed out, attempting to continue to use the numbers as being representative of the fraction of the Steam users is an intentional attempt to deceive. 

🤷‍♂️

I think we shouldn't 100% go off of the numbers there, for reasons shown in the second quoted post here. On top of that, "active traders" is a very broad term so I'll narrow it down here. By active traders I mean people who have bought/sold at least 1 or more items in the past month. I think that a month is a good time span, because sometimes people won't buy or sell things until they need them. This can mean that I won't sell my anasas until I have a sufficient number of them to sell or the price rises. 

The other thing is that I think we can get a general number off of sites like warframe market. We can use them for a very broad guess at the number of people trading, but we shouldn't use that as our definitive mumber. That's because someone could forget to turn their account to offline and the site says their online even though they haven't logged in for over a month. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

52 minutes ago, (NSW)Rafa-el said:

You and ppl dedicated to market and sell and buy to newbies have so much to lost with a fair AH, where all ppl can see prices on fly and sell stuff.

it’s a problem, indeed.

Bad news, Tenno, there are also people like me who don't bother to sell their stuff, who oppose an auction house being added. 

Because the supply of most items in the game is huge, and demand is quite low. This means that in order to make a sale, you will need to have the lowest price at any given time. But you won't be the only one who wants to make a sale, so if you have the lowest price, someone else will undercut you. At that point it's just a matter of time until the price goes into freefall. 

Then the same f2p new players you think are being ripped off, will be in a much worse position, because they're all going to have a harder time making plat from selling their items. That means no plat to buy slots. 

That's bad. 

 

8 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

 

I think we shouldn't 100% go off of the numbers there, for reasons shown in the second quoted post here. On top of that, "active traders" is a very broad term so I'll narrow it down here. By active traders I mean people who have bought/sold at least 1 or more items in the past month. I think that a month is a good time span, because sometimes people won't buy or sell things until they need them. This can mean that I won't sell my anasas until I have a sufficient number of them to sell or the price rises. 

The other thing is that I think we can get a general number off of sites like warframe market. We can use them for a very broad guess at the number of people trading, but we shouldn't use that as our definitive mumber. That's because someone could forget to turn their account to offline and the site says their online even though they haven't logged in for over a month. 

At that point it's better to just disregard the numbers because they are spurious. Because with combining the numbers on multiple sites, you're also going to be counting the sellers multiple times, and still be no closer to knowing how many non-Steam players are mixed up in there. 

Add to that that there are people like me who use the site just to see what the going rates are, but never post anything for sale, or perhaps people who do the same but never log in.... The numbers won't be worth the paper they're scribbled on. 

[Captain_Rocket505]

Just now, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

At that point it's better to just disregard the numbers because they are spurious. Because with combining the numbers on multiple sites, you're also going to be counting the sellers multiple times, and still be no closer to knowing how many non-Steam players are mixed up in there. 

Add to that that there are people like me who use the site just to see what the going rates are, but never post anything for sale, or perhaps people who do the same but never log in.... The numbers won't be worth the paper they're scribbled on. 

That's a fair point that I didn't even consider, though I don't understand why you oppose an auction house. You said that you use warframe market to gauge prices, having an in game auction house would make it easier. Wanna see how much CO max ranked mods are going for? Just check the auction. No need to go to a third party site on your phone or chrome. 

 

There is another point I didn't consider(and you didnt mention this so it's not directed to you), that being would this cause a crash in prices or not? My best answer is I'm not sure, but there's an easy test- set one up temporarily for about a month. That lets people give feedback and see the impact of an auction house, and the best part? Its temporary. If people don't like it, then DE removes it. If people do, then it stays. Its a simple test, and relatively easy to do. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

49 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

That's a fair point that I didn't even consider, though I don't understand why you oppose an auction house. You said that you use warframe market to gauge prices, having an in game auction house would make it easier. Wanna see how much CO max ranked mods are going for? Just check the auction. No need to go to a third party site on your phone or chrome. 

 

There is another point I didn't consider(and you didnt mention this so it's not directed to you), that being would this cause a crash in prices or not? My best answer is I'm not sure, but there's an easy test- set one up temporarily for about a month. That lets people give feedback and see the impact of an auction house, and the best part? Its temporary. If people don't like it, then DE removes it. If people do, then it stays. Its a simple test, and relatively easy to do. 

Another easy test is just knowing how this games economy and model work.

Ivara Prime, a frame I've farmed and sold multiple times basically on accident, because many people have these relics and run relics to get rid of excess relics....is 28 plat on market. There are also 20 other people selling ivara Prime for under 40 plat, with a large number selling her for 30p.

Common sense tells us clearly everyone that plays doesn't use warframe.market. Would you say that's a fair assessment? 

We already have our race to the bottom because you see clear as day people undercutting the 50 plat ivara, the 45 plat ivara, the 40 plat ivara and the 35p ivara. 

Now let's throw every single player in the game and assume they all have 2 ivara primes, because with a relic share group you could farm 2 ivaras in probably 60 minutes or less if you're doing captures and exterminations.

If I can't sell my ivara for 28 plat, I'm going to make it 25, then a few hundred others will make their ivara 24, then 23, all the way down to whatever number people feel is enough. 

Do you think Prime frames should sell for 10 to 25plat? Why or why not?

[PublikDomain]

3 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

Apparently this is wrong, according to the OP a third of the steam userbase are active users of Warframe market already.

No?

warframe.market currently has (at the time of writing) 11,796 users viewing their site, with 8,713 of those users being signed in users with a buy or sell order ("traders"). This is across all platforms: PC (all launchers), Xbox, PSN, NSW.

Warframe had 34,315 players online on Steam as of an hour ago.

That's obviously not to say that 1 in 3 users on Steam have warframe.market open in a browser. But it does give you some context as to how large warframe.market is: really big. It's a third the size of Steam's userbase.

Anyone that claims that warframe.market is a small niche group of traders that doesn't represent the actual market is, frankly, full of 💩. Everyone here has access to these numbers.

1 hour ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

By active traders I mean people who have bought/sold at least 1 or more items in the past month.

But those aren't the numbers we have available. None of us can make a good guess at those and provide actual stats to back that up.

What we have:

• The number of users on Steam, because trackers collect and publish this kind of game information. Steamcharts, Steam Spy, etc.
  • https://steamcharts.com/app/230410
• The number of people on warframe.market, because warframe.market publishes this information.
• The number of people on warframe.market that they consider "traders" across all platforms, because warframe.market publishes this information.
  • https://warframe.market/
• A headcount of people connected to trade chat ingame, for different platforms (PC, Xbox, PSN, NSW), and different regions (NA, SA, EU, RU, Asia, Oceana). You've gotta go ingame and count this yourself.
  • When I counted yesterday, it was <300 total users on PC. Yes, that includes the one or two weirdos that launches through the standalone launcher.
• And I guess a headcount of people inside Maroo's Bazaar for different instances.

That's what we have to draw our conclusions from, unless you have access to CCUs for consoles or other relevant data you can provide.

Out of those numbers, I think comparing "the people watching trade chat" to "the people watching warframe.market" is fair if you want to compare "people interested in trading". If you're interested in trading, you can't do any trading if you aren't watching trade chat or warframe.market (or any other external trade site). And when you compare those numbers, it's clear that warframe.market has far more eyeballs than trade chat, even if you generously assume that non-PC playerbases are just as large.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

That's a fair point that I didn't even consider, though I don't understand why you oppose an auction house. You said that you use warframe market to gauge prices, having an in game auction house would make it easier. Wanna see how much CO max ranked mods are going for? Just check the auction. No need to go to a third party site on your phone or chrome. 

 

There is another point I didn't consider(and you didnt mention this so it's not directed to you), that being would this cause a crash in prices or not? My best answer is I'm not sure, but there's an easy test- set one up temporarily for about a month. That lets people give feedback and see the impact of an auction house, and the best part? Its temporary. If people don't like it, then DE removes it. If people do, then it stays. Its a simple test, and relatively easy to do. 

I do use it, but I also use a filter in chat to let me focus on the wtb and wts messages for the item I'm interested in. And the reason why it's different is because I have to put the effort into doing it, that's also the reason why I and people like me don't list things for sale, it takes effort. If you reduce the effort required, you'd see more listings for sale, increased competition, and a reduction in pricing.

I've spoken repeatedly about that crashing prices in an inevitable race to zero, and mentioned that it's just an example of the tragedy of the commons.

And no. No test is really needed because one already existed, the creation of warframe.market, some time back I looked through the old threads and found several cases of people whining about the reduction in prices, but I'm not bothering to go looking for them again, and also because people whine a lot in here and misattribute things to causes all the time. Also it's NOT important if people "like" it or not. What's important is that we don't crash the economy, doing so would ruin things for newer players, and without them, the game will suffer.

It's like asking people to test whether or not shooting themselves in the foot would hurt, you don't know until you try, and really it's unlikely to be fatal for most people, right? So nothing wrong with testing it.... unless you already grasp the concept that intentionally shooting yourself in the foot isn't a good idea.

 

[Zimzala]

5 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Out of those numbers, I think comparing "the people watching trade chat" to "the people watching warframe.market" is fair if you want to compare "people interested in trading". If you're interested in trading, you can't do any trading if you aren't watching trade chat or warframe.market (or any other external trade site). And when you compare those numbers, it's clear that warframe.market has far more eyeballs than trade chat, even if you generously assume that non-PC playerbases are just as large.

My response is, So?

WF is about space ninjas, not an economic simulator to allow robber-baron wanna-bes a place to practice capitalism and screw-your-neighbor.

Just because WF you can trade stuff in WF does not mean it has to be easy, convenient, or even an integral part of the game.

If you want to play the Stock Market, IMO, you should go play the Stock Market and not try to make a simulator in WF.

Just because there is 'some number' of people in WF that like to trade, does not mean it is something that DE or the majority of the player base actually wants, it just means the wanna-be capitalists need to find a game that suits them better if they cannot realize their dreams of market dominance in this game.

The arguments here try to make it sound like this trading 'matters', like it's some integral part of the game, when it's just an added convenience and completely optional, that a portion of the player base tried to inflate into some huge issue.

Just because some players want something does not make the desire valid, reasonable to implement, or even part of the design that will gain and retain more players, it just means a few players like to feel like robber-barons, IMO.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Do you think Prime frames should sell for 10 to 25plat? Why or why not?

You can skip the hypothetical and just look at Trinity Prime. When she was available she was down to I think like 20p at its lowest. Ridiculously cheap. But, because of ingame systems like Baro taking parts out of circulation and the Prime Vault cutting off the supply, she's now worth 60p.

https://warframe.market/items/trinity_prime_set/statistics

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

If I can't sell my ivara for 28 plat, I'm going to make it 25, then a few hundred others will make their ivara 24, then 23, all the way down to whatever number people feel is enough. 

Or you can hold onto your Ivara Prime set and let the others dump their stuff for cheap. Then when the prices rise you can sell her for more. Or better yet, buy up the sets people are selling for so cheap and sit on them until the market improves. #stonks.

[PublikDomain]

13 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

The arguments here try to make it sound like this trading 'matters', like it's some integral part of the game, when it's just an added convenience and completely optional, that a portion of the player base tried to inflate into some huge issue.

So 11,701 people don't matter? That's the number of people on warframe.market right now. Sounds like it matters quite a great deal to a very large number of people.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

24 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

So 11,701 people don't matter? That's the number of people on warframe.market right now. Sounds like it matters quite a great deal to a very large number of people.

How many of them are actually getting a sale? For that matter, how many are there to buy? If the number of sellers and buyers are equal, you're down to 6k trades at best? What are the odds that it's 10.7k sellers and only 1k buyers? And again, how many of those are on each platform? And what percentage of the total players is even using that site?

Without answers to those questions the numbers themselves are pretty meaningless. But you already know that, don't you?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

 

50 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

You can skip the hypothetical and just look at Trinity Prime. When she was available she was down to I think like 20p at its lowest. Ridiculously cheap. But, because of ingame systems like Baro taking parts out of circulation and the Prime Vault cutting off the supply, she's now worth 60p.

https://warframe.market/items/trinity_prime_set/statistics

Or you can hold onto your Ivara Prime set and let the others dump their stuff for cheap. Then when the prices rise you can sell her for more. Or better yet, buy up the sets people are selling for so cheap and sit on them until the market improves. #stonks.

Yes that is a good idea. Although there are still a handful of people offering to sell Trinity for 30 to 40p. In an auction house, I'm not gonna buy a 60p trinity, I'm gonna by the 30p one.

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Yes that is a good idea. Although there are still a handful of people offering to sell Trinity for 30 to 40p. In an auction house, I'm not gonna buy a 60p trinity, I'm gonna by the 30p one.

I think you could chalk that up to old trades that haven't been taken down yet. Because you still have to be online and meet to complete a trade and because warframe.market doesn't show when an offer was posted, the offline listings don't really matter. You can't contact that person to complete the trade even if you wanted to. The online sellers range from 58-300p, and the online-but-not-ingame sellers range from 60-220p. So even though the lowest offline offer is 36p, that offer could be a year old and there's no way you can actually buy from them. Though I think they do prune offers that get too old, I'd have to look into that.

[Zimzala]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

So 11,701 people don't matter? That's the number of people on warframe.market right now. Sounds like it matters quite a great deal to a very large number of people.

Not what I said totally disingenuous, but your are such a smart guy, you knew that, right?

11k is not, in MMO terms, a large number, IME.

Just because someone logged into the system once and they automatically log back in when they open their browsers, etc., it does not always equate to active, so the numbers are meaningless, just to point out one flaw.

The desire of those players to want to play a Stock Market within a video game it not an invalid desire, it simply does not fit into the promoted road map/outlook of the developers of this game.

So sure, throw out your 'numbers' all you like, they prove nothing, they mean nothing, beyond showing that there are players that like to trade things in WF.

Conflating any group of the player base to forward ones agenda is an old trick and simply does not hold up under scrutiny in this case.

Show us the stats on the number of player that have stopped playing and told DE the reason was not having an in-game market, then perhaps you at least have a valid statistic with which to open a conversation.

Just because 11k players want a thing, does not automatically make that thing worth adding in DE's outlook.

Try and inflate your 'numbers' all you like - DE does not agree there is currently enough desire to make it have the ROI they desire and have been clear about that. If you enjoy tilting at windmills, fine, but using some numbers you don't really have sufficient data around to foist this 'statistic' as if it has any real meaning is disingenuous IMO.

Lies, damn dirty lies, and then there's statistics...

[Zimzala]

11 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

wow this discussion keeps on going 

For years on end, simply because there are players that choose not to understand that not every game has to work like every other game and that just because they desire a game to make a change, does not, in fact, automatically mean what they want is good for the game, etc., nor does it mean that the game developers should 'jump right on that'.

Just because a customer complains or has desires, it does not mean there is a problem with the service, it just means the customer wants something.

[Captain_Rocket505]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Another easy test is just knowing how this games economy and model work.

Ivara Prime, a frame I've farmed and sold multiple times basically on accident, because many people have these relics and run relics to get rid of excess relics....is 28 plat on market. There are also 20 other people selling ivara Prime for under 40 plat, with a large number selling her for 30p.

Common sense tells us clearly everyone that plays doesn't use warframe.market. Would you say that's a fair assessment? 

We already have our race to the bottom because you see clear as day people undercutting the 50 plat ivara, the 45 plat ivara, the 40 plat ivara and the 35p ivara. 

Now let's throw every single player in the game and assume they all have 2 ivara primes, because with a relic share group you could farm 2 ivaras in probably 60 minutes or less if you're doing captures and exterminations.

If I can't sell my ivara for 28 plat, I'm going to make it 25, then a few hundred others will make their ivara 24, then 23, all the way down to whatever number people feel is enough. 

Do you think Prime frames should sell for 10 to 25plat? Why or why not?

Uh yes, because that is how the basic rules of an economy works. Ivara prime is an easy to get frame, and many people have stupid amount of parts for her. It makes complete sense for the price to be that low. And guess what? Once she's vaulted, the prices will go up as supply goes down. I need to correct something from my original post here- Warframes economy isn't like a normal one. It's important we talk about it as if it was one, but it's filed are weirdly combined. High supply means low prices, and high demand means high prices. Going back to the beginning of your post, I don't think anyone in their right mind would base a test sololy off of data gathered from a third party site. And I never said everyone uses or doesn't use warframe market at all. But the best way to see how the players react to an auction house is to implement it, and use the data gathered to see its effects. Again it's a temporary test. If you don't like it, you can go post about it on the feedback forum they would set up. Also lets understand who benefits from this? Is it just the sad people who spam trading chat? Is it people who constantly buy and sell on warframe market? No its average Joe's like you and me, people who do a bit but not a ton. We understand the basics (and possibly more) of how the economy works in this game. But it's not just us who benefit. Those people in trade chat or who use warframe market? They benefit too. Its an easy thing to see, everyone benefits. The only downsides are just predictions. Those can be backed and disproved with data, but I don't think its fair to say we can't have an auction house based solely on what you think might happen. If there is a test auction house, and the things people claim would happen did then fine. But a lot of this is just speculation. We just need to test to see how it will affect players. Oh the best part? You don't need to use it. You can continue to use warframe market like nothing happened. But I'm willing to bet that a few of the things I predicted will happen if we introduce an auction house. 

[PublikDomain]

43 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

11k is not, in MMO terms, a large number, IME.

Compared to Warframe's numbers, 11k is quite a lot. TBH, it's far more than I initially expected. I was expecting maybe 2k, maybe up to 4k. But 6-12k CCU on a fansite when the game itself pulls 20-40k CCU on its largest platform? That's massive. Even if you naively assume that all the platforms are equal and generously assume that Warframe has like 180k peak daily CCU across all platforms*, you're still talking about 1 in 15 players actively engaging in trade at any given moment on one fansite. And you can look at the ingame trade chat itself and see that it only measures in the hundreds across the entire PC ecosystem.

43 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Just because someone logged into the system once and they automatically log back in when they open their browsers, etc., it does not always equate to active, so the numbers are meaningless, just to point out one flaw.

I don't believe this to be the case, as that site lists online users separately from online traders. I think it's counting anyone viewing the site as one online user, and anyone viewing the site while signed in, maybe also with an active listing, as one online trader. But even if you assume that the 6k or so users it gets down to during nightly US hours are all people that forgot to log out 6 months ago, that number still jumps up to 12k during daytime US hours so clearly people are entering and exiting the site. And even if the userbase is only that 6k figure that logs in during the day in the US, that's still a heck of a lot of players.

Clearly, trade is important to many people in the game. And clearly, warframe.market has a lot of users.

[Captain_Rocket505]

2 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

I do use it, but I also use a filter in chat to let me focus on the wtb and wts messages for the item I'm interested in. And the reason why it's different is because I have to put the effort into doing it, that's also the reason why I and people like me don't list things for sale, it takes effort. If you reduce the effort required, you'd see more listings for sale, increased competition, and a reduction in pricing.

I've spoken repeatedly about that crashing prices in an inevitable race to zero, and mentioned that it's just an example of the tragedy of the commons.

And no. No test is really needed because one already existed, the creation of warframe.market, some time back I looked through the old threads and found several cases of people whining about the reduction in prices, but I'm not bothering to go looking for them again, and also because people whine a lot in here and misattribute things to causes all the time. Also it's NOT important if people "like" it or not. What's important is that we don't crash the economy, doing so would ruin things for newer players, and without them, the game will suffer.

It's like asking people to test whether or not shooting themselves in the foot would hurt, you don't know until you try, and really it's unlikely to be fatal for most people, right? So nothing wrong with testing it.... unless you already grasp the concept that intentionally shooting yourself in the foot isn't a good idea.

 

Look I'll be honest: what part of temporary did you not get? Besides lets take a look at the facts:

Fact: a small percentage of players, relative to the total number of active players, actively participate in trading. 

Fact: sites like warframe market cause shifts down in price temporarily when introduced

Fact: those prices will recover eventually after while

Fact: no price is static, and will eventually recover as supply drops. 

Players can help a price recover by taking supply off the market. Adding an auction house might mean a drop in prices, but I'm willing to bet it will be smaller. For one thing there are the traders. How many new people are you expecting to start trading if an auction is added? Not a lot I would say. The prices will move, but your saying they'll move to zero directly. My bet is that they will lower a tad, depending on the number of new traders. Oh get this- we can actively monitor the amount of trading done, by items posted, sold, and how often people post or buy items. Really the pros outweigh a lot of the cons. I feel like you just don't understand my arguments for an auction house. You claim the prices will drop if an auction was added. I'm willing to bet that when warframe market was first launched, it did the same thing. But the economy is stable now, but it needs change. This is that change. Yeah the prices will drop. But not forever. You see the nice thing about an economy is that it will slowly recover. Wether that's by natural means like people taking supply out, or by DE implementing a price floor (the lowest amount a price can drop) to make sure items are sold. There are several solutions to help with a price fall, which may I remind you is natural. It's as simple as that. In fact Im willing to be one of the first to test an auction house. Oh let's not forget the test clusters. Set people into a test server, and let them play the game for a month or so in there. Progress could be kept with the normal build, the only difference is that there's an auction house in there. It would isolate the auction house so it doesn't affect the main economy, but I still think the best way to test this is with an auction house in the public build. 

[Venus-Venera]

a general way to get rid of rivens would be good ... there are more and more and they are rarely sold, if at all. Usually only a few weapons are in demand. and buyers are looked for far too long or forever.

[Zimzala]

8 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Clearly, trade is important to many people in the game. And clearly, warframe.market has a lot of users.

Clearly, these players trade with each other already.

Clearly, DE does not intend at this time to spend resources on their Space Ninja game to make more like Space Barons.

Clearly, you do not have the exit surveys and other forms of data DE has and uses to gauge what they will and will not add.

Clearly, talking about this in circles with other players does nothing to further DEs desire to add such a system.

Clearly, a lot of players cannot understand that just because they want it, their desires do not make enough sense to DE for them to change their outlook.

Clearly, none of the numbers presented can be used in a specific fashion as they have not been vetted by anything other than napkin math.

Clearly, loud players that think whatever they want in a game should be a priority are never going to shut about it.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

Look I'll be honest: what part of temporary did you not get? Besides lets take a look at the facts:

Shooting yourself in the foot is also typically a temporary problem. Would you intentionally do that?

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

Fact: a small percentage of players, relative to the total number of active players, actively participate in trading. 

Right. And we still have a consistent glut. So implementing tools to make it easier to trade increases the glut. Not a good idea.

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

Fact: sites like warframe market cause shifts down in price temporarily when introduced

The use of "temporarily", becomes an issue.

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

Fact: those prices will recover eventually after while

You hope. In the real world that can happen because supply is limited, and demand tend to reoccour. Warframe is buy/craft once, own forever for most items.

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

Fact: no price is static, and will eventually recover as supply drops. 

By increasing the number of people who own a thing, you increase the number of sellers, as they will inevitably farm the item, often passively while trying to farm something else.

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

Players can help a price recover by taking supply off the market.

That would work if humans were logical and tragedy of the commons were not a thing. Trust me on this, I come from an oil producing nation, people do stupid things, and sell their valuable commodities at lower prices because they want the money quickly.

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

Adding an auction house might mean a drop in prices, but I'm willing to bet it will be smaller.

I'm not, and lucky for us, DE doesn't seem to be either.

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

For one thing there are the traders. How many new people are you expecting to start trading if an auction is added? Not a lot I would say.

A lot I'd say. Because there are quite a few vets who have stockpiles far greater than I do, who are willing to supply those at low prices, because they don't need the plat.

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

The prices will move, but your saying they'll move to zero directly.

Race to zero. We already see it with any new items that get farmed. How long it takes is dependent on how many people are willing and able to sell the item.

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

My bet is that they will lower a tad, depending on the number of new traders. Oh get this- we can actively monitor the amount of trading done, by items posted, sold, and how often people post or buy items. Really the pros outweigh a lot of the cons.

I disagree. Take a look at Maroo's, at the people selling prime junk in bulk, at people like me who don't usually engage in selling, because it's a hassle. 

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

I feel like you just don't understand my arguments for an auction house.

I feel like I do.

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

You claim the prices will drop if an auction was added. I'm willing to bet that when warframe market was first launched, it did the same thing.

I already told you that it seems to have in the post you quoted.

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

But the economy is stable now, but it needs change.

No it's on a slow slide according to the vets.

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

This is that change. Yeah the prices will drop. But not forever. You see the nice thing about an economy is that it will slowly recover. Wether that's by natural means like people taking supply out, or by DE implementing a price floor (the lowest amount a price can drop) to make sure items are sold.

So if they do what you want them to do, they'll need to implement what you hope will be a fix for the problems that it causes? Causing more problems is bad. That's a bad change. 

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

There are several solutions to help with a price fall, which may I remind you is natural. It's as simple as that.

Oh we need "several" solutions to fix what you want to add? Cripes that's a really bad idea, innit?

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

In fact Im willing to be one of the first to test an auction house.

There are several games that have them. Wanna go do that and report your findings, with a comparison of how the in-game economy works, and the factors relating to that?

30 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

Oh let's not forget the test clusters. Set people into a test server, and let them play the game for a month or so in there. Progress could be kept with the normal build, the only difference is that there's an auction house in there. It would isolate the auction house so it doesn't affect the main economy, but I still think the best way to test this is with an auction house in the public build. 

I'd say that you're missing the fact that warframe.market was the test. Even at the current state it looks like it has significant and far reaching effects on the rate of price decay.

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

Uh yes, because that is how the basic rules of an economy works. Ivara prime is an easy to get frame, and many people have stupid amount of parts for her. It makes complete sense for the price to be that low. And guess what? Once she's vaulted, the prices will go up as supply goes down. I need to correct something from my original post here- Warframes economy isn't like a normal one. It's important we talk about it as if it was one, but it's filed are weirdly combined. High supply means low prices, and high demand means high prices. Going back to the beginning of your post, I don't think anyone in their right mind would base a test sololy off of data gathered from a third party site. And I never said everyone uses or doesn't use warframe market at all. But the best way to see how the players react to an auction house is to implement it, and use the data gathered to see its effects. Again it's a temporary test. If you don't like it, you can go post about it on the feedback forum they would set up. Also lets understand who benefits from this? Is it just the sad people who spam trading chat? Is it people who constantly buy and sell on warframe market? No its average Joe's like you and me, people who do a bit but not a ton. We understand the basics (and possibly more) of how the economy works in this game. But it's not just us who benefit. Those people in trade chat or who use warframe market? They benefit too. Its an easy thing to see, everyone benefits. The only downsides are just predictions. Those can be backed and disproved with data, but I don't think its fair to say we can't have an auction house based solely on what you think might happen. If there is a test auction house, and the things people claim would happen did then fine. But a lot of this is just speculation. We just need to test to see how it will affect players. Oh the best part? You don't need to use it. You can continue to use warframe market like nothing happened. But I'm willing to bet that a few of the things I predicted will happen if we introduce an auction house. 

It's important to disregard warframes economy and talk about it as if it was a normal one? That's actually not what you should be doing. You should be acknowledging the reality of the situation and trying to plan past just wanting cheap stuff.

Do you know that this system is how warframe makes money? Do you see a subscription anywhere? 

What in the game is actually in high demand? Things are in high demand for a week for the impatient rushers that wanted Nezha right away and now necramech parts and rivens for new weapons. But after you know....people actually play the games content for a week or two, they are back to having an excess of the games items.....

Currently there is only a handful of high demand items: Loki Prime, ash prime, mag prime, some gold necramech mods, Saryn prime chassis and the like. 

Do you think that's enough to prop up an auction house? 

Do you have any answers to the questions about what DE should do with their market prices? Their discount system? Their prime access prices? 

 

[PublikDomain]

On 2020-12-14 at 8:41 PM, Zimzala said:

Clearly, these players trade with each other already.

Clearly, DE does not intend at this time to spend resources on their Space Ninja game to make more like Space Barons.

Yes.

On 2020-12-14 at 8:41 PM, Zimzala said:

Clearly, you do not have the exit surveys and other forms of data DE has and uses to gauge what they will and will not add.

And, unless you can post otherwise, neither do you. But we can be sensible, reasonable adults and use our critical thinking to look at the numbers we do have access to and draw rational conclusions. And from the numbers we do have access to, it's clear that external tools like warframe.market have a very large userbase and must be doing something right. if they weren't popular and had a poor user experience, people wouldn't use them. DE should add the same functionality given the popularity of those tools, just like DE should add an ingame wiki so we can move away from the S#&amp;&#036;ty wikia and add any number of other QoL changes players can already make outside the game. Because that's how you improve your game and your user experience.

On 2020-12-14 at 8:41 PM, Zimzala said:

Clearly, talking about this in circles with other players does nothing to further DEs desire to add such a system.

Clearly, a lot of players cannot understand that just because they want it, their desires do not make enough sense to DE for them to change their outlook.

Which is why we're here on the official Warframe forums talking about systems we'd like to see ingame, so that the developers can see and understand what the playerbase wants and why. Or what they don't want, and why.

On 2020-12-14 at 8:41 PM, Zimzala said:

Clearly, none of the numbers presented can be used in a specific fashion as they have not been vetted by anything other than napkin math.

... would you like to vet those numbers too? You can, you just look them up. You can go ingame like I did the other day and count the number of people on trade chat. You can go to warframe.market and watch their ticker go up and down. You can go to trackers like Steamcharts or Steam spy and get user metrics for Steam. And if you know of any other sources, like console user metrics or trade metrics, then you could post those too so we can all see them.

[Captain_Rocket505]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

It's important to disregard warframes economy and talk about it as if it was a normal one? That's actually not what you should be doing. You should be acknowledging the reality of the situation and trying to plan past just wanting cheap stuff.

Do you know that this system is how warframe makes money? Do you see a subscription anywhere? 

What in the game is actually in high demand? Things are in high demand for a week for the impatient rushers that wanted Nezha right away and now necramech parts and rivens for new weapons. But after you know....people actually play the games content for a week or two, they are back to having an excess of the games items.....

Currently there is only a handful of high demand items: Loki Prime, ash prime, mag prime, some gold necramech mods, Saryn prime chassis and the like. 

Do you think that's enough to prop up an auction house? 

Do you have any answers to the questions about what DE should do with their market prices? Their discount system? Their prime access prices? 

 

Yes I do but the important question is whether you do, since you sound so sure of that. 

Q:What should DE do with their market prices?  I assume you mean the price of the items sold, and it's obvious. For many they'll remain the same, sometimes moving but mostly staying the same. DE's market model at the moment seems to be ship tons of content at once, and then work on the next thing to ship so people will mass buy. Some items, like rivens, will be in constant demand and thus won't be affected. Others will simply have the prices drop like normal. 

Follow up question: what about having something hit 0? Well that's where a price floor is made. Idk if you read my post, but I already talked about this. The difference is that this price floor could be updated either monthly or weekly, depending on the item. Simple question gets a simple answer

Q: the discount system. Now I rarely buy plat. I mostly make it back by trading, similar to most. The difference between me and other, more active traders? I don't spend plat a lot. The discount system would honestly stay the same, with some modification. If DE wanted to maximize profit it would have to be reduced a bit with the influx of new traders thanks to the auction house. Kinda simple.

Q: What about the prime access prices? I gotta say, that makes almost zero sense. There isittle the prime access system has to do with an auction house. I would say it can stay the same, though with a bit of reduced prices to account for the new traders thanks once again to the auction house. Pirme access is for those who want the latest primes instantly, plus some cosmetics. Even if they have the prime weapons and frame, there's still the cosmetics you can buy. Very little change needed.

 

Now I want to say that while at first I was comparing warframe to a normal economy, I did shift my focus to account for new info. That's clearly something you didn't see, which to be fair you might have glazed over or I might not have mentioned it in my last response to you. As for the rare prime parts, yeah it can be enough to pop up an auction house. Saryn is well known for being a powerful frame, and demand for her prime is still high no matter what. As for necramech mods, it would depend on the future of the mechs so I don't think it's fair to say they play that high of a role. And DE would need to balance it out with other things, I agree. Making some more blueprints tradable, increasing rarity of some other items, there are a ton of ways to help with that. Rather than claiming I have no idea what I'm talking about, why not offer up your own solutions? You clearly didnt present any in your response

[Captain_Rocket505]

1 hour ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

I'd say that you're missing the fact that warframe.market was the test. Even at the current state it looks like it has significant and far reaching effects on the rate of price decay.

So why aren't you rallying against that if it's such a bad thing? 

 

1 hour ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

There are several games that have them. Wanna go do that and report your findings, with a comparison of how the in-game economy works, and the factors relating to that?

Unless those games are extremely similar to warframe that's a bad idea. For one, warframes economy and marking model is very unique. There are hardly any, possibly no games that do it very similar to warframe. Trying to compare a game completely different than warframe in terms of gameplay, grind, and price to name a few, just messes up your data. 

1 hour ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Oh we need "several" solutions to fix what you want to add? Cripes that's a really bad idea, innit?

 Cripes mate I just said there were several. Never said we would need all of them. Your intentially misreading the point. 

1 hour ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

So if they do what you want them to do, they'll need to implement what you hope will be a fix for the problems that it causes? Causing more problems is bad. That's a bad change. 

Then you'll do what people typically do: rally against DE until it's fixed. Since you seem confident that you understand stuff so well, why not offer your own solution here? 

1 hour ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

The use of "temporarily", becomes an issue.

So all of a sudden an auction site that's easy to use becomes a bad thing? 

1 hour ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

You hope. In the real world that can happen because supply is limited, and demand tend to reoccour. Warframe is buy/craft once, own forever for most items.

That would be for some items. For others, key example being veiled rivens, the price will recover. And besides when one thing drops in value another rarer item will take its place.

 

1 hour ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

That would work if humans were logical and tragedy of the commons were not a thing. Trust me on this, I come from an oil producing nation, people do stupid things, and sell their valuable commodities at lower prices because they want the money quickly.

And humans aren't perfect, I get that. Again, offer your own solutions here please. You clearly disagree with my points, and that's fine. But you haven't offered anything at all besides trying (and sometimes successfully) countering my points. Does that make me wrong? Maybe, but I (warning-high bias) would say no. Does it make you right? Again, I would say no. But that doesn't make you wrong nor does that make me right. We're both offering opinions, though where I'm trying to offer solutions to problems you present you offer just criticism. 

1 hour ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Take a look at Maroo's, at the people selling prime junk in bulk, at people like me who don't usually engage in selling, because it's a hassle

And an auction house would help fix that. A system where you check a menu, and click buy, and it gives you the item instantly. Now thats my ideal version, and clearly it requires a rework of the trading system which I think many of us can agree needs to be done to a certain extent. 

 

You seem to just be focusing on trying to bring down my argument without offering anything in return. Id love to see your solutions, since you think mine are so bad. Alternativly we could just box this out lol. Your choice