Solo / Invite only Relays or Open Worlds

[Ahrcii]

Adding solo / Invite only relays or open worlds, May be a good thing because It may reduce fps drops on low end pc's. Or maybe adding an option where you can make players invisible so that you don't have to load them in and get your frames dropped by -20 or lower. My friend's pc is suffering because of this, so that's why i want to speak up and help him. Please DE! 

[chaotea]

I think the issue is that opening a solo relay wont work as the relays are hosted by DE, not players.

Solo open world is a thing already however. same as any mission.

[PhiThagRaid]

1 hour ago, chaotea said:

Solo open world is a thing already however. same as any mission.

I believe OP would be referring to Cetus, Fortuna and Necralisk. 

2 hours ago, Ahrcii said:

May be a good thing because It may reduce fps drops on low end pc's

The best you can currently do is choosing a empty/calm instance of the location.

2 hours ago, Ahrcii said:

Or maybe adding an option where you can make players invisible so that you don't have to load them in

Other players do have a default bland Excalibur before being loaded in, I think this only shows up with slow internet connection, though, not slow PC. An option to hide players in relays would be a nice addition, many hubs I've seen in other games allow this.

Cetus in general tanks performance, I've not heard anyone complain about Fortuna/Necralisk or Relays(Newer relays might be a bit more intensive), but I guess we can make this the first. I have had friends complain that leaving an openworld and going to the openworld hub makes them lag out, I believe they try to fill the instances before creating more.

[Hobie-wan]

Warframe is very nice to people with older and lower specced PCs. If your friend is struggling, then they are very far behind on at least some aspects of their PC. I can't find the post now, but they will be dropping support for older Direct X soon which it sounds like it will leave your friend behind. They can't support older systems forever if they want to keep up and gain new players. Your friend will need to need to upgrade. Not necessarily to something new, just newer or add some memory, close all other programs, or whatnot.

[fr4gb4ll]

On 2020-12-09 at 6:47 PM, chaotea said:

I think the issue is that opening a solo relay wont work as the relays are hosted by DE, not players.

Solo open world is a thing already however. same as any mission.

exactly this.

as for relays, your friend (or you - idk why you asking this for someone else) could just go into a instance that isn't crowded with players... also, since the relays ARE handled by the server and not by the players computer, there shouldn't even be much of extra strain on the players rig (even on toasters). the only computers who might have a problem are those that are already far below the given specs for the game and you can't really expect DE to act upon this - afterall, creating an empty instance for every player (if they choose it) wold cost DE a lot more computing power and thus server time (and thus, money) because they would have to be prepared to the case where suddenly a majority of players want to create their own private relay, meaning the server powers would need to be there all the time... and DE isn't even running those servers themself but rent them as they need - think about how much that would cost otherwise.

no, tell your 'friend' to upgrade his/her rig to a decent hardware (there is no need for very expensive one when it comes to WF) or else live with the low-fps on crowded relays - it'S not that you need a fluid gameplay there unlike you need in missions.

[Hobie-wan]

1 hour ago, fr4gb4ll said:

there shouldn't even be much of extra strain on the players rig (even on toasters).

Very low system/GPU memory can cause issues as the player's system struggles to load in all the possible frame and fashion combos for crowds of people in hubs. Likewise having to load in the larger visible geometry and textures for open areas. There is a reason that large open areas in games where you can see really far are still touted features these days. Corridors with twists and turns ensure there's a lot less to draw at any one time. Remember that the 'fog' in stuff like the first Silent Hill was as much a limitation of the system as it was a coincidental fit for the setting and atmosphere.

[fr4gb4ll]

22 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

Very low system/GPU memory can cause issues as the player's system struggles to load in all the possible frame and fashion combos for crowds of people in hubs. Likewise having to load in the larger visible geometry and textures for open areas. There is a reason that large open areas in games where you can see really far are still touted features these days. Corridors with twists and turns ensure there's a lot less to draw at any one time. Remember that the 'fog' in stuff like the first Silent Hill was as much a limitation of the system as it was a coincidental fit for the setting and atmosphere.

that's all correct, though i still wonder about how 'low' a computer specs have to be to struggle in a normal filled relay if the same rig can even load into an open area with a frame rate that makes this playable.

also, as you might have witnessed occasionally, when you load into a relay and, for example, fast travel to teshin and then run to the main hall (usually because of the big salt-trader baro is there), you will see other tennos in their 'default' excalibur 'outfit' (without any colors or decorations) - that is one way to prevent a collaps of the render-units too and let the player be able to still move normal in there... like i said, idk about the spec of said computer, but it could also be something else being responsible for the drop in frames - too many to list them all, but a short search will surely get you summary, many of them not having low hardware specs as a reason. so your friend should work this angle first, for if DE would doing what you suggested, it would certainly take quite a while before it gets released - enough time to experiment around ^^)

[Iccotak]

I'd like to see Solo Railjack missions, at least for free roam

I get that current system encourages players to participate in dojos but I'd rather it was just connected to my orbiter

[PhiThagRaid]

6 hours ago, Iccotak said:

I'd like to see Solo Railjack missions, at least for free roam

I get that current system encourages players to participate in dojos but I'd rather it was just connected to my orbiter

Isn't that exactly what exists right now or do you mean the railjack customisation menu? Solo exists by setting your game to solo, going to your railjack and starting from there.

[fungame_dot_exe]

On 2020-12-10 at 10:41 PM, Hobie-wan said:

Very low system/GPU memory can cause issues as the player's system struggles to load in all the possible frame and fashion combos for crowds

Except modern graphics cards have 8gb or so of purely graphics memory, which means the programmers can fit a ton of things in.

Warframe has pretty low detail models and textures, the only thing that takes up gpu memory is the terrains - which, if you've seen huge detailed worlds on consoles, like Ghost Recon: Wildlands - they can be loaded as you fly/move around. And we're talking tons of data, all the little bushes and whatever, the pattern of the dirt splotches scribbled by the level artists (dirt/grass/rock/..).

Warframe has to run on consoles, so it is tech limited by the older console machines. Because money. PC = better framerate and screen resolution.

Massively multiplayer (MMO) online games are no more except for the dinosaurs of the dying breed, like Runescape, WoW and FF14. What happened is that eggheads in the executive meeting rooms, keen to please their selfish investors, realized that they can do away with all the performance costs of dedicated servers if they just made all the networking code get done on the customers' PCs/consoles, with a sort of "authority server" that allowed you to match with other players and get into matchmaking lobbies, or go right ingame. This reduced upfront and running costs massively so everyone is gunning for that these days. It is absolutely about money over quality design; money over player experience, and so on, no matter how much money you give to them. They just want more. Let's take a recent example - rewind to 2 months ago, The Coalition (Gears 5) sells the 3 Gears character from earlier games for real money. From games they never even worked on since they bought the franchise from Epic Games! These companies are getting greedier and greedier. Take Genshin Impact's creators as another example. All they did was take a story (manga) and make it 3d and slap on a few RPG elements and hire some voice actors and some level designers for a year or so.. then they release their product once and they now want to sit on it, and do basically nothing except lazily slowly add a bit of content - and they want millions of players to keep sending them money, while all they did was release a Unity game that matches you with other players. One company. Millions of installs globally. Month by month, money from around 25% of the playerbase. Someone in the world (like Jeff Bezos) is getting very comfortable raking in all that cash. https://micky.com.au/genshin-impact-makes-60m-on-launch-week-second-highest-grossing-mobile-game

If DE could cash in on adding mission instances of 50+ players, they would. You can already see lots of players there at the same time at relays (Baro). But how would they say it.. "Hi I'm responsible for damage control community management for DE! How are you doing today? 50+ instances.. It's not really in the interest of the game's design. We don't see a need for this going forward."

Do you get annoyed by the "Host migration in progress" or whatever it is? Why does it even have to be like that? Wouldn't it be great if DE removed that? Uhhh I think that's a question for their upper management!

[Hobie-wan]

4 hours ago, fungame_dot_exe said:

Except modern graphics cards have 8gb or so of purely graphics memory, which means the programmers can fit a ton of things in.

Not everyone playing the game has a 'modern' video card. Hence threads like this where people are running on older hardware and barely getting by despite WF being kind to older hardware. The official minimum specs currently only require 4G of system memory and doesn't list a memory requirement for the graphics card at all, just requiring they be Direct X 10 capable (for now). People with 4-8 gigs of system memory are very unlikely to have a 8 gigs on their graphics card.

https://digitalextremes.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200182230-What-are-the-minimum-specs-for-Warframe-

Let's take a look at some 'Direct X 10' video cards on Newegg that you can buy right now (12-12-20). never mind older ones people might have gotten years ago with the rest of their PC years ago.

https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100007709 600007816&submit=property

Scroll down on the left and expand the 'memory size' filter on the left. The cards shown are 256 MB to 1.5 G of memory.

People like the OP's friend will not have an 8 gig video card. Thus my comment on reasons why that person would be struggling.

5 hours ago, fungame_dot_exe said:

Do you get annoyed by the "Host migration in progress" or whatever it is? Why does it even have to be like that? Wouldn't it be great if DE removed that? Uhhh I think that's a question for their upper management!

Because anything that isn't a relay or chat is peer hosted. The game is played peer to peer. Servers cost money and if DE hosted all instances, we'd either be paying monthly fees or the monetization would be much heavier. Just because you didn't look for an answer doesn't mean there isn't one.

Could host migration be better when the previously chosen host leaves? It probably could, barring internet jankiness. Hopefully it will be some day. However that has nothing at all to do with the OPs post.

[fungame_dot_exe]

On 2020-12-13 at 12:51 AM, Hobie-wan said:

Not everyone playing the game has a 'modern' video card. Hence threads like this where people are running on older hardware and barely getting by despite WF being kind to older hardware. The official minimum specs currently only require 4G of system memory and doesn't list a memory requirement for the graphics card at all, just requiring they be Direct X 10 capable (for now). People with 4-8 gigs of system memory are very unlikely to have a 8 gigs on their graphics card.

https://digitalextremes.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200182230-What-are-the-minimum-specs-for-Warframe-

Let's take a look at some 'Direct X 10' video cards on Newegg that you can buy right now (12-12-20). never mind older ones people might have gotten years ago with the rest of their PC years ago.

https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100007709 600007816&submit=property

Scroll down on the left and expand the 'memory size' filter on the left. The cards shown are 256 MB to 1.5 G of memory.

People like the OP's friend will not have an 8 gig video card. Thus my comment on reasons why that person would be struggling.

Because anything that isn't a relay or chat is peer hosted. The game is played peer to peer. Servers cost money and if DE hosted all instances, we'd either be paying monthly fees or the monetization would be much heavier. Just because you didn't look for an answer doesn't mean there isn't one.

Could host migration be better when the previously chosen host leaves? It probably could, barring internet jankiness. Hopefully it will be some day. However that has nothing at all to do with the OPs post.

Your entire first argument is dispelled with looking at the market share of those kinds of cards. The first in that search result is in the 0-0.1% range. https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTest/7917/NVIDIA-GeForce-8400-GS (scroll down a bit)

It's good to be sympathetic with those with low spec hardware. The reality is that most people did upgrade within the past 4 years or when they did, they knew what a cheap graphics card looked like and how it's the best part of a good gaming pc. Steam has stats on that.

Spoiler

And, like I stated, a PS4/Xbox One can run very large terrains. I don't think you want to be implying that most Warframe running PCs are lower spec than the terribly outdated PS4/Xb1 gpus. Nothing but the game engine is limiting what can be displayed at once. It's DE's own fault they decided to roll their own engine 8 or so years ago and not go with Unreal Engine, CryEngine, or Unigine. There is nothing architecturally special about Warframe in a graphics/networking sense. There's no stopping a Chinese company from cloning it better, like Tencent cloned Team Fortress 2 and pressed the narrative that it was theirs originally.

The other part is a more complex numbers debate, we don't have the numbers.

[Hobie-wan]

9 hours ago, fungame_dot_exe said:

Your entire first argument is dispelled with looking at the market share of those kinds of cards.

FFS dude. stop, read other people's posts, and then stop posting walls of text that don't apply to the thread.

I'm not saying anything about the playerbase at large. I'm talking about in relation to the OPs 'friend'. If you actually read, I said that they'll need to upgrade as DE is not going to spend dev time do go backwards even though they've been very nice to people with older hardware overall. Yes the Steam hardware survey shows most people are running better, but most is still not all and Steam, as much as they do dominate, doesn't represent all PC players.

I was simply trying to explain the situation for the OP.

[DrivaMain]

Would be nice to change matchmaking settings in mission. I created an invite only session in an open world and then change it to public for others to join.

[Kefirno]

On 2020-12-09 at 8:47 PM, chaotea said:

I think the issue is that opening a solo relay wont work as the relays are hosted by DE, not players.

DE's priorities are amazing. Servers to host missions? Nah. Having their own ingame market? Nah! Useless hub that only exist to waste your time and melt your GPU with legions of pink Rhinos? Hell yeah!

[Hobie-wan]

7 hours ago, Kefirno said:

Servers to host missions?

Again, maybe you want to pay a monthly fee or be drowning in onerous microtransaction BS to pay for servers to host all player instances, but I sure don't and most of the player base probably doesn't either.

[Kefirno]

2 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

Again, maybe you want to pay a monthly fee or be drowning in onerous microtransaction BS to pay for servers to host all player instances, but I sure don't and most of the player base probably doesn't either.

Why would you just assume that servers aren't feasible for DE with current monetization model? Also, allowing community to partially take care of servers is common practice, look at Killing Floor for example. Like trading is already handled by community, lol.

And let me remind you that p2p model (at least in Warframe's case) also comes at a price of releasing utterly broken major updates and then spending a couple months fixing them because 70% of bugs are netcode-related. Broken door before Exploiter Orb fight is still a thing and raids had to be killed because DE just couldn't handle making them work.

Anyway, if servers are indeed such a financial burden, ok then, can we get rid of Relays and open world hubs please? Faster loads and less framedrops and visual clutter for players, a couple bucks saved for DE, it's a win-win. If objectively useful and beneficial features are too costly, then wasting resources questionable/detrimental stuff is just dumb and irresponsible.