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Hema Research Mutagen Sample cost gets more insane every patch.


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The price has always been nuts, but it gets crazier the more things get added, because nothing has even approached it in the three years since its introduction.

In order by Mutagen Sample cost, Bio Lab Research is as follows for a Ghost clan:

Mutagen Mass - 5
Torid, Acrid, Phage - 10
Dual Toxocyst, Pox - 20
Scoliac, Cerata, Dual Ichor - 25
Mios, Embolist, Pupacyst, Mutalist Quanta, Paracyst, Caustacyst, Squad Health Restore (Medium), Squad Health Restore (Medium) x10 - 30
Bubonico - 35
Catabolyst - 40
Djinn - 60
Synapse - 65
Squad Health Restore (Large) x100 - 550
Hema - 5000

There's two standouts here, one of which is the SHR(L) x100 at 550 each. The other is the Hema, at 5000. This is literally more than 100x the price of everything but Djinn, Synapse, and the SHR(L)x100. It's about 3.25 times the price of everything else combined - 1565, according to the wiki's total cost of 5565, minus the 5k for the Hema alone. Its cost in Plastids is also much higher than anything else aside from the Infested Catalyst, but Plastids drop from more than two planets in the game and in quantities greater than one at a time.

At the time of the Hema's introduction, it was stated that the price was intentional. It introduced a new mechanic (Absorbing health and ammo from enemies on headshots), and the Mutagen Sample cost was supposed to encourage collaboration within a Clan to research it, by everyone in the Clan contributing 500. As was noted at the time, this assumed a couple things - that the Clan would have the maximum number of players for its tier, and that all members would be active contributors, mostly.
I have not found these to be the case, but I only have anecdotal evidence.

In the three years since the Glast Gambit, only one thing has been introduced to the Bio Lab that requires a three-digit Mutagen Sample count for research, which gives me the impression that the massive price didn't accomplish the intended goal. The Hema's mechanics are also no longer quite as different from everything else as they were - nothing else can drain HP on a headshot, but there's also now infinite ammo options that don't cost HP, either.

Given that the current focus of the game - Deimos, with its Infested themes - has also been bringing more attention to the Bio Lab, I think this might be a good time to reduce the Hema's research costs. After all, if a narrative reason is called for, might the denizens of Deimos not have shared some helpful knowledge?
Whether that includes refunding the Mutagen Samples to Clans that had already researched the Hema is a question for DE to answer, especially given the timeframe involved.

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Well, when i was reashesing the Hema i was in a solo clan, it took me one week to get 5000 mutagen sample(one hour or 40 min per day), right now with deimos and a better drop chance (and the steel path) it is not a big deal to be honest.

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8 minutes ago, zurefox said:

Well, when i was reashesing the Hema i was in a solo clan, it took me one week to get 5000 mutagen sample(one hour or 40 min per day), right now with deimos and a better drop chance (and the steel path) it is not a big deal to be honest.

Interesting. I'm only getting ~40 from a good 20 minute solo run on Terrorem, at which rate it would take me approximately 125 runs, so 41 hours, so more than a month at an hour per day. See how useless anecdotes are? I skipped them in the first place because it devolves into a moronic comparison of highly subjective, often incompletely recalled, experiences. Not saying you misremembered, but that there's no point in comparing anecdotes.

The point is that it's a ridiculous variance for no good reason. There are ways to progress through it faster or slower - I could always just pay people to join my clan, donate samples, and leave, for example. To me, this would be no different than grouping up with a meta loot party in principle.

They're all just ways to address the issue of the Hema's Mutagen Sample cost being set based on certain assumptions. I'd rather see the core problem be reviewed.

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The hema research is one of the most beneficial in terms of clan xp, to reduce it's cost would likely mean a whole set of issues with reducing that xp aswell, causing clans to derank and potentially rank up again. It would also be impossible for DE to give the cost difference to players because the game may not log who exactly gave that extra amount, so if you compete with another player to see who gives the most mutagens and every day the research gets closer to start, if a cost reduction happens, how do they know how much to give to each of those players?

There are no logs to serve as compensation, the weapon is worth like 3 researches and the cost of getting it done isn't that high, provided you actually farm the areas.

The area that contains them, is actually far away from the starting planets, so if early on you explore areas well, that incentive is lost and is instead replaced with the rushing mentality which is quite ineficient because you depend largely on end of mission reward, the longer the mission, the worse it gets, so by the time you are on the relevant area, you simply rush, kill 2 enemies in the capture, grab the weekly ayatan statue with 3 kills and you're like 0.0001% done

Then there are the players that blow everything up, kill 2 or 3 hundreds enemies in each mission and they quickly ramp up the research.

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22 hours ago, KIREEK said:

The hema research is one of the most beneficial in terms of clan xp, to reduce it's cost would likely mean a whole set of issues with reducing that xp aswell, causing clans to derank and potentially rank up again. It would also be impossible for DE to give the cost difference to players because the game may not log who exactly gave that extra amount, so if you compete with another player to see who gives the most mutagens and every day the research gets closer to start, if a cost reduction happens, how do they know how much to give to each of those players?

There are no logs to serve as compensation, the weapon is worth like 3 researches and the cost of getting it done isn't that high, provided you actually farm the areas.

The area that contains them, is actually far away from the starting planets, so if early on you explore areas well, that incentive is lost and is instead replaced with the rushing mentality which is quite ineficient because you depend largely on end of mission reward, the longer the mission, the worse it gets, so by the time you are on the relevant area, you simply rush, kill 2 enemies in the capture, grab the weekly ayatan statue with 3 kills and you're like 0.0001% done

Then there are the players that blow everything up, kill 2 or 3 hundreds enemies in each mission and they quickly ramp up the research.

Well, at least it's more than "Won't happen." You're at least trying to think through things and examine the actual suggestion. That said, you're overcomplicating for absolutely no reason.

Clan XP: Why would this require reducing the XP gained by clans that have already researched the Hema? What does the cost for people who research it after any theoretical reductions in cost have to do with the XP gained by people who researched it before? From a programming standpoint, this would just be making two copies of the Hema research, one of which is the current version and the other of which is the hypothetical (with potential decrease in mutagen sample cost). Clans with current version, if hypothetical implemented, keep it and do not need to research hypothetical. Whether the XP gain would be reduced for researching the hypothetical is completely irrelevant to the clans who already have the current.

Refunds: Why would they refund to the players, when any other time there's a contribution and a refund would be triggered (cancellations, destruction), the refund goes to the Clan Vault? The hypothetical refund would go to the Clan. Because that's how it works with everything else. I'm not sure they'd refund it to begin with, given that it would literally be enough to research every single other thing in the Bio Lab several times over, which could then affect later releases.

The second half is anecdotal. Again, anecdotes are useless and comparing them is pointless. There are different ways to progress at different speeds. Some people/clans will get it quickly, some people/clans will get it slowly, some might not get it at all. Some will buy it with plat. That doesn't matter. That's not the point.

The point, again, is that the Hema's mutagen sample cost is literally one hundred times as expensive as most (all but three) other things in the Bio Lab, including things that came out long after it.
The Hema's mutagen sample cost is sufficiently tremendous that it would finance the research of every single other thing in the Bio Lab, combined, three times over.

And somehow, it's unreasonable of me to say "Hey, it's been three years, and based on the available data (mutagen sample costs of subsequent releases), it didn't have the intended effect (because everything subsequent is much cheaper). Can this bit of outstanding variance be reviewed?"

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What really needs to happen is fix the Hema to actually do something well other than be a Equinox and Chroma swap reload self damage buddy.
Either reduce its burst recoil and spread to focus more on the headshot aspect or make lifesteal universal to fully go for the infinite ammo spray n pray angle (and in either case buff base damage by 10-30 damage depending on if going rafale or headshot precision).

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I've seen the sort of people that think others should suffer because they suffered.  I've also seen the "I didn't have that problem because RNG loves me so that problem doesn't exist." type people.  There's plenty of them in the forums, usually found in literally any complaint feedback thread slinging trash at the OP for disagreeing with the devs.  The same sort of people that refuse just look at simple math.  It took me weeks of dedicated farming, with a booster, with a farm frame, with a smeeta, to get the 5k before.  And I had help for part of it.  But even if it only took whatever small amount of time these types of people try to say it takes, that's not the issue.

Hema research takes more of its faction material (5,000 Mutagen Samples) for just the Hema than the faction material cost for the entire goddamn Chem Lab (3,465 Detonite Ampules) or the entire goddamn Energy Lab (3,121 Fieldron Samples).

Go look it up on the wiki if you don't believe me.  It's completely absurd that it would take that much more for one item.  The fact that they won't change it because it's some ridiculous "I suffered through the awful grind" badge of honor is absolutely idiotic.  The idea that there are people that think others should have to do it because they had to do it is honestly depressing to me.  That's an awful mindset to have.  Having completed 100% of my clan's research, and most of it solo:  They could lower the cost of literally everything to more reasonable levels, not give any of the resources spent by existing clans back to them, and I would be glad that other players weren't getting screwed over anymore.  I don't need those resources back.  At 2k+ hours in I have enough stockpiled of everything that I don't need any of those resources back, and most of the people that want other clans to suffer like they did don't need them anymore either.

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5 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Hema research takes more of its faction material (5,000 Mutagen Samples) for just the Hema than the faction material cost for the entire goddamn Chem Lab (3,465 Detonite Ampules) or the entire goddamn Energy Lab (3,121 Fieldron Samples).

And to make that point even stronger, mutagen samples only dropped from 0.25 of a planet on the star chart on the hema's release (Eris, where they're the same rarity as neurodes) whereas detonite has 8 planets and fieldron has 5. Only recently have mutagen samples become accessible from something on the normal starchart (Deimos, so now we have 1.25 planets to get mutagen samples from) and even then people aren't going to go there because the XP gained from infested is crap compared to the other 2 factions.

Still, I'm actually grateful for the Hema's ridiculous cost. It's what cured me of the "must get everything no matter what" mentality. I now have a much easier time saying "#*!% you" to any absurd requirements or things which are locked behind defective and broken game modes.

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On 2020-12-11 at 8:59 PM, Andele3025 said:

What really needs to happen is fix the Hema to actually do something well other than be a Equinox and Chroma swap reload self damage buddy.
Either reduce its burst recoil and spread to focus more on the headshot aspect or make lifesteal universal to fully go for the infinite ammo spray n pray angle (and in either case buff base damage by 10-30 damage depending on if going rafale or headshot precision).

This'll blow your friggin' mind, I swear - this thread would exist if the Hema were a soggy feather duster shooting rubber duck shrapnel, and this thread would exist if the Hema fired Opticor blasts that branched like the Amprex and lifedrained for every bit of damage it dealt while also turning every single enemy it killed into an infinite duration spectral minion.

Because this thread is not about the balance state of the Hema.

This thread is - you know what? You probably won't have read this far.

 

TehChubbyDugan and DoomFruit, I appreciate you.

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On 2020-12-10 at 11:49 PM, OricSharp said:

At the time of the Hema's introduction, it was stated that the price was intentional. It introduced a new mechanic (Absorbing health and ammo from enemies on headshots), and the Mutagen Sample cost was supposed to encourage collaboration within a Clan to research it, by everyone in the Clan contributing 500. As was noted at the time, this assumed a couple things - that the Clan would have the maximum number of players for its tier, and that all members would be active contributors, mostly.

Interesting... I immediately saw the flaw with this Implementation despite hearing about this for this time just now.

On 2020-12-10 at 11:49 PM, OricSharp said:

Whether that includes refunding the Mutagen Samples to Clans that had already researched the Hema is a question for DE to answer, especially given the timeframe involved.

This one is tricky... 

Sooo... Let's say you refund the All the Mutagen Samples... Then what ?

Unlike Endo and Kuva, Mutagen Samples or and Dojo Lab Resource is not as versatile....

It's essentially like giving players that grinded hard for something stupid nothing....

This whole Hema Fiasco is broken on so many levels I feel like it can't be salvaged at this point.... 

And you know what sucks... I don't think DE has learned from this mistake either.

On 2020-12-12 at 4:05 AM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I've seen the sort of people that think others should suffer because they suffered.  I've also seen the "I didn't have that problem because RNG loves me so that problem doesn't exist." type people.

I don't think I've ever read anything here that made me pay attention as quickly as this does 😮 !!! Tell me more !!!

On 2020-12-12 at 4:05 AM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

There's plenty of them in the forums, usually found in literally any complaint feedback thread slinging trash at the OP for disagreeing with the devs.  The same sort of people that refuse just look at simple math.

PREACH !!!

 

On 2020-12-12 at 4:05 AM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Hema research takes more of its faction material (5,000 Mutagen Samples) for just the Hema than the faction material cost for the entire goddamn Chem Lab (3,465 Detonite Ampules) or the entire goddamn Energy Lab (3,121 Fieldron Samples).

😮 !!!

On 2020-12-12 at 4:05 AM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

The fact that they won't change it because it's some ridiculous "I suffered through the awful grind" badge of honor is absolutely idiotic.  The idea that there are people that think others should have to do it because they had to do it is honestly depressing to me.

It's also scary to think DE would let themselves get taken Hostage specifically by this type of Player...  It's genuinely unsettling.

On 2020-12-12 at 10:10 AM, DoomFruit said:

Still, I'm actually grateful for the Hema's ridiculous cost. It's what cured me of the "must get everything no matter what" mentality. I now have a much easier time saying "#*!% you" to any absurd requirements or things which are locked behind defective and broken game modes.

As strange as it was to read this I think this is Genuinely Inspiring 🙂.

 

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5 hours ago, OricSharp said:

This'll blow your friggin' mind, I swear - this thread would exist if the Hema were a soggy feather duster shooting rubber duck shrapnel, and this thread would exist if the Hema fired Opticor blasts that branched like the Amprex and lifedrained for every bit of damage it dealt while also turning every single enemy it killed into an infinite duration spectral minion.

Because this thread is not about the balance state of the Hema.

Its not, but my argument is people would be/are typically far more willing to put in work for something that isnt a soggy disappointment. Being rewarded for ones grind (something also quite lacking in general in recent times) and feeling a sense of achievement (more so as a clan because individually the player cost of crafting a hema from just a blueprint already researched is minimal).

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20 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I don't think I've ever read anything here that made me pay attention as quickly as this does 😮 !!! Tell me more !!!

I have most of them blocked, or I'd start rifling through their posts and just give you a couple pages of "wtf is this BS" to read.  There are very literally people that will defend the Hema's cost (and a lot of other garbage) because "I had to do it, so you should to."  Very literally just people that think because they or others have suffered that everyone should have to deal with the same suffering. 

And nearly any complaint thread about RNG is filled with the same sort of player that absolutely does not care that it took another player literally months of daily grind to get a Khora BP (personally know more than one person that did 2-3 runs minimum every single day of SO for literally months before giving up on the BP/sys dropping and just buying Khora) or the fact that it took me (yes.  I keep track of this stuff past a certain point.) literally over 60 in-mission hours to farm CO the first time I got it.  They didn't have that issue with RNG so that issue doesn't exist in the game for anyone.

These people are abundant in real life and pretty much every other game as well and I absolutely despise them.

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2 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I have most of them blocked

I try aswell but I'm surprised by how often I still see those types of responses as my ignore list gets longer.... It's like someone's mass producing them ,😱 !!!

2 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

the fact that it took me (yes.  I keep track of this stuff past a certain point.) literally over 60 in-mission hours to farm CO the first time I got it. 

I bet doing every single quest in this Game doesn't even take that long.... Obviously for that to be valid we would have to not factor in Build Time but since The Foundry Works even when you log out I guess that's fine....

It just goes to show how bad some grinds are...

2 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

These people are abundant in real life and pretty much every other game as well and I absolutely despise them.

I feel you, buddy... I'm right there with you. 😤 

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The price is absurd, but I look at the Deimos update as a way of the developers acknowledging it and rectifying it without changing the price.  Mutagen samples are all over Deimos, and the derelict no longer has a key requirement, making random missions there a lot more tempting.

 

Also, with the advent of MR30 there is yet another way to boost your farming efficiency.

 

The cost of Hema research used to be obscene, but it's now basically a nonissue.

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4 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I have most of them blocked, or I'd start rifling through their posts and just give you a couple pages of "wtf is this BS" to read.  There are very literally people that will defend the Hema's cost (and a lot of other garbage) because "I had to do it, so you should to."  Very literally just people that think because they or others have suffered that everyone should have to deal with the same suffering. 

And nearly any complaint thread about RNG is filled with the same sort of player that absolutely does not care that it took another player literally months of daily grind to get a Khora BP (personally know more than one person that did 2-3 runs minimum every single day of SO for literally months before giving up on the BP/sys dropping and just buying Khora) or the fact that it took me (yes.  I keep track of this stuff past a certain point.) literally over 60 in-mission hours to farm CO the first time I got it.  They didn't have that issue with RNG so that issue doesn't exist in the game for anyone.

These people are abundant in real life and pretty much every other game as well and I absolutely despise them.

It took me ~2 months of on-and-off farming to get Nova. I had already gotten her prime, so I just needed her for mastery, but one of her parts would not drop for me. I probably killed The Raptor over 1000 times before I finally got the part.

Brozime, a well-known streamer, still doesn't have one of the ESO ephemera, despite farming it almost exclusively for focus and maxing out all 5 trees.

There are way to many examples of this sort of thing. DE seems to love either using an absurdly low chance or an absurdly high number of 'tokens' for things just to drag out the content, and it all it does is separate the community into the lucky/tryhard 'haves' and the unlucky/casual 'have-nots'.

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On 2020-12-10 at 10:49 PM, OricSharp said:

The price has always been nuts, but it gets crazier the more things get added

Not really. Look, everyone knows DE accidentally added 2 digits too many to the Hema's research cost. And then pretended they didn't. And then stubbornly stuck to the cost.

I wanted the Hema many years ago, but it was unattainable to me. Today I have one in my Inventory, but it is complete garbage to other weapons at my disposal.

The right thing to do would be to at least reduce the cost to 1500 and make the weapon competetive. Don't hold your breath.

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Hehehe I love seeing people justify that Hema crap, it gets better every year. To face-tank and disregard the sheer amount of logic and pleads for self-respect and respect towards newcomers they're met with - that takes some talent and effort. No wonder DE add more and more grind in and scoff at the idea of reducing Hema requirements - there will always be a guy to say that its totally fine.

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15 hours ago, Lone_Dude said:

Hehehe I love seeing people justify that Hema crap, it gets better every year. To face-tank and disregard the sheer amount of logic and pleads for self-respect and respect towards newcomers they're met with - that takes some talent and effort. No wonder DE add more and more grind in and scoff at the idea of reducing Hema requirements - there will always be a guy to say that its totally fine.

If we are go by raw logic, the conclusion is: The gun only exists for swap reload mods for memes with equinox or to fuel a chroma that wants his buff for secondary or melee, thus is generally worthless. Bo matter if its cost is 0 or 200000000000000 whats the point when it when performs worse than default sybaris which has 2 (really 4.5 if we are honest) upgraded versions.
The secondary "i need the MR" logic is: Jump into a clan with it as the clan research cost =/= buid cost, so much like ignis wraith at baro instead of wasting ducats/time just skip that step using another guild.

Only then do any other arguments come in.

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  • 3 months later...

 

Railjack 2.0 was create with the "LESS GRIND" mind... could someone spare a bit of this for Solo player GHOST CLAN ? 

 

Le 19/03/2021 à 16:18, [DE]Megan a dit :

Update 29.10.0: Corpus Proxima & The New Railjack

27b022679646e8762c8d627b890f0987.png

 

... Simply put, yet again, less Grind.

 

 

 

Railjack 2.0 was create with the "LESS GRIND" mind... could someone spare a bit of this for Solo player GHOST CLAN ?

How stupid is this cost of FIVE THOUSAND samples ???:

-The HEMA build is only 50 mutagen samples (5 Mutagen mass) so 1% of the research cost
-The research of HEMA alone is 78,8 % of the TOTAL RESEARCH USING MUTAGEN SAMPLE / MASS
-
The research of HEMA alone multiply by FIVE the total mutagen sample needed for research
-The research of HEMA is 909% of the X100 SQUAD HEALTH RESTORE ...

-I played warframe since UPDATE 7 and I have barely enough to complete 1/5 of the sample needed. I had invest 500 hundres samples because I misread the numbers and I will not give a sample more...

 

I don't ask it for me, I don't like nor care about the Infested weapons

For the new players,

For the infested / nidus lovers, (Red veil should still burn them all... but that another matter)

For all ghosts clans players,

A BIT LESS GRIND PLEASE !!!

 

As per reference (in case the cost will go up)

9OJf34I.png

 

PS : Some Running gags are good but this one had gone a bit too far ...

 

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15 hours ago, RLanzinger said:

 I played warframe since UPDATE 7 and I have barely enough to complete 1/5 of the sample needed. I had invest 500 hundres samples because I misread the numbers and I will not give a sample more...

Update 7 yet you still didnt unlock nekros and derelict/now deimos since then?

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Il y a 6 heures, Andele3025 a dit :

Update 7 yet you still didnt unlock nekros and derelict/now deimos since then?

🙄 Why bother asking such obvious question ?
 

Like I said I don't ask this for me :
-I will buy the Hema on the Market if I need/wish for it
-
I choose to speak up for all new players because HEMA is only a MR7 weapon (In comparison Phage is MR 11).
-Since Deimos, The infested weapons is more ... trendy... and Hema should not be inaccessible for its gullible sample cost 

 

If I wish, I could do a x32 ressources-raid weed-end which could gave me more than 1000 hours of ressources but I don't want to Grind for ANY weapon -AKjagara was the worst I could tolerate-. Players rejoigning olders dojo don't have to spend anything because it is already done but players who wish to create their OWN NEW LITTLE DOJO won't appreciate to grind this much for one MR7 weapon.

 

😉 And for your clowny question, I know you could look at my profile :
-I have played Nekros and twice as mush for Nekros Prime (not as much as you who use it 46,5% of your time)
-YOU have played 1965 hours, completed 8778 and gained 35millions credits.
-I have played more than 3000 hours, completed 14 248 missions and gained 116 millions credits.

Edited by RLanzinger
Some mispelling + add bold/color effects
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Oh No What GIF by Originals

Wait, Hema is only MR 7?!

Yeah, I'll always agree on the fact that Hema's Mutagen Sample requirements are like highway robbery, similar to Sibear's Cryotic requirements, but good luck convincing other idio-, I mean, players that this needs to be changed. Some people just enjoy suffering, and not in the Dark Souls "git gud" kinda way, even farming for Warframes like Ivara, Harrow or Nidus seems more reasonable. My clan completed Hema's research a year or two ago, but it doesn't mean that I want everyone else to suffer. There'll always be a fine line between grind & overly obnoxious busywork, Hema falling into the latter category of course.

Edited by (PSN)IndianChiefJeff
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28 minutes ago, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

 

Oh No What GIF by Originals

Wait, Hema is only MR 7?!

Yeah, I'll always agree on the fact that Hema's Mutagen Sample requirements are like highway robbery, similar to Sibear's Cryotic requirements, but good luck convincing other idio-, I mean, players that this needs to be changed. Some people just enjoy suffering, and not in the Dark Souls "git gud" kinda way, even farming for Warframes like Ivara, Harrow or Nidus seems more reasonable. My clan completed Hema's research some a year or two ago, but it doesn't mean that I want everyone else to suffer. There'll always be a fine line between grind & overly obnoxious busywork, Hema falling into the latter category of course.

I heard that they won't change it because many people wasted so much time and it would be not fair for them.

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3 hours ago, RLanzinger said:

And for your clowny question, I know you could look at my profile

I dont think you understood the point of the snarky question which was "it pretty much rains mutagen samples on deimos (and by all accounts most orbiters should be flooded with nano spores)"

47 minutes ago, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

 There'll always be a fine line between grind & overly obnoxious busywork, Hema falling into the latter category of course.

That line is set by the reward. Hema being MR 7 is the problem (or well, released as a test and then during rebalance left at 7). Making it good not only gives a actual point to farming it up for a unlock as a clan (since its already dirt cheap to build), but would also give the gun a use other than being a self damage source for chroma and equinox.

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