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There is potentially a problem with Lavos before he even releases. This issue is already present in the game.


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This is not a "New frame bad even though I haven't used him" or a "cooldowns bad, no put cooldowns in game." thread.  

Every ability Lavos has, has tap/hold functionality.  Tap/hold functionality sucks in this game in most cases.  The only cases where it does not suck, are the cases where, ironically, the settings for tap/hold functionality are ignored, like with the elemental augments for Volt/Oberon/etc.  In those cases, the primary function is always tap, the secondary function is always hold.

The issue doesn't come from the setting "invert tap/hold functionality" though.  The issue comes from every frame being different, and several of them being backward from each other.

Ivara's Quiver and Vauban's Minelayer are both default tap to swap, hold to cast.  This feels like absolute garbage to me, so I use the setting that inverts this.  If I turn off the setting for inverting tap/hold then I will have to deal with these frames feeling like trash to use.  Khora is Default hold to swap, tap to cast.  I can live with her's being inverted with the setting because while I might swap around which state Venari is in, the only times I use the functionality (which is now hold to cast since I have it inverted.) is when I'm setting Venari to heal a defense objective.  

Then we start adding more and more of it.  Thermal Sunder on Gauss is backward for me.  I hate the way it feels on him so much I just flat out took it off him with Helminth.  Then they added that cinematic ability to Mag's Magnetize.  Tapping now summons that bullet collector instead of the stationary bubble because of the inversion setting.  Mag now feels awful to use for me, but again, if I make her feel not awful to use then Ivara and Vauban will feel awful to use to me.  The list of frames that feel worse to use grows every time they add more tap/hold functionality.  

Now here comes Lavos.  If his abilities follow my inverted settings, I'm going to have to figure out which frames I'm going to use more to figure out which setting I need to use and if he's not completely OP he's going to end up getting ranked and tossed, because I cannot have a frame that has 4 abilities that require I hold the button for primary function.  This feels like complete crap on a controller.

The solution is simple to suggest but would probably require a bit of work on DE's part.  The thing is, this is about the functionality of their game, so I believe that they need to put that work in.

Allow us to individually set which tap/hold abilities are inverted and which are not.  Alternatively, you could set all abilities that have a "swap" function in them, like Minelayer and Venari, to have the same scheme of "x to swap, y to cast", then change the current inversion setting to be "invert hold to swap" and have the setting only affect the abilities that have a swap/cast function (like Minelayer) and not effect the abilities that have 2 functions on hold/tap (like Thermal Sunder).  That way primary function is always tap and secondary is always hold and we can decide if we want swap/cast to be inverted without changing primary/secondary cast abilities.

Just a quick, semi-related aside for charge abilities:  on a controller, you hold RB to access the ability menu and then hit one of the A/B/X/Y (square/circle/triangle/x) buttons to cast an ability.  for charge abilities, you have to hold both which completely negates your ability to aim.  I need to make two things super clear here:  First, DE screwed over every single person that plays with M/KB, including those on console using them, and every single person with a controller with paddle/back buttons just so that regular controllers could have the ability to hover and still look around in a mech.  They fixed the mod issue, but you still cannot aim while hovering and you could before, and this was done entirely for controllers.  For mechs.  Which are...  meh to be completely honest.  The inability to aim while charging abilities is the exact same issue and has been present for years and is a bunch bigger deal than friggin mechs.  The second point I would like to make is that unlike the non-solution brought to mechs, the solution for charge abilities not being aimable is already in the game and doesn't screw anyone over.  Her name is Garuda.  Her 4 is a charge ability.  And yet is the only ability in the whole game where you can hold RB, press and release Y, and if you keep holding RB, it will keep charging.  Every other ability, like Hydroids 1 and 4, will cast as soon as you release the corresponding button, even if you are still holding RB.  There is no rational reason why this works with Garuda and not with every other charge ability.

Please care enough to make your game feel smoother to play.  If Lavos' abilities are all inverted because I want the setting inverted for other frames, he's either going to have to be so strong that I swap it just for him, or he's going to be dead on arrival for me and probably many others that use the inverted setting.  Options mean the world in a game like this.

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It would also be nice if the Invert Tap/Hold option actually worked for Titania 1 and Vauban 4, so that I can tap the button for the mode I primarily want to use (the self status immunity and the vortex). Any hold-to-cast ability that demands frequent use feels terrible on any input device.

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Before they removed the abilities operator transferance was also a hold/tap thing and it was just painful to do things quick since it was also inverted when abilities were. Definitely need the ability to invert via choice for those abilities

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54 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Ivara's Quiver and Vauban's Minelayer are both default tap to swap, hold to cast.  This feels like absolute garbage to me,

I feel the other way round. It makes more sense to me to tap to cycle, and hold to cast. Tapping is better if i want to cycle powers.

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2 minutes ago, chaotea said:

I feel the other way round. It makes more sense to me to tap to cycle, and hold to cast. Tapping is better if i want to cycle powers.

The difference is generally seen as whether you want to comfortably use multiple components together, or use repeatedly at a time and swap occasionally.

Tap-switch is great when you want to use multiple, because every sub-ability cast is located within the maximum timeframe of 3T+H.

Hold-switch is great when you want to just use one thing at a time repeatedly, because T<H and T(N) is accordingly 1/(H/T) the time of H(N) (where t=1 h=3; 5 casts = T:5 H:15, tap-cast is 1/3rd the time)

That's why Quiver-likes are tap-switch by default (promote using all components) while Venari stance is hold-switch by default (kitty can only do one thing at a time anyway).

 

What does this mean for Lavos, specifically? Well, 'every ability' potential is counted as 2 elemental infusions into a combination, plus a cast. Technically by this logic, the better choice is Tap-Infuse and Hold-Cast (2T+H) instead of Hold-Infuse and Tap-Cast (2H+T). But it's over multiple button presses making the infuse less clearly an effective 'cycle'.

It's also worth considering whether you think "Accidental ability cast" is worse than "Mistaken element combination". Depending on whether combos have to be used once brewed or can be overridden by a third base-element press, this could differ based on personal taste. The fact these are cooldown-based abilities (and one is the cornerstone of all your Efficiency stat as well) might also make someone consider accidental casts the worse option regardless of whether accidental combos can be overridden. In that case, it also supports Tap-Infuse being the default.

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I agree with the main criticism. There's no consistent standard around what holding and what tapping are generally supposed to mean in abilities with two separate modes, with Khora inexplicably being the exception to any possible standard set by Ivara, Vauban, and now Chroma, and with Lavos having hold-to-infuse, tap-to-cast abilities, that further complicates matters. Personally, I'd rather it be hold-to-swap, tap-to-cast by default across all frames, so that there's no divergence between Lavos and the rest, and so that I don't have to fiddle around each time a frame has that sort of mechanic to remember which input is tied to swapping and which to actually using the thing.

As a side note, Lavos's infusion mechanic sounds like it's going to be rather fiddly to use, and I play on PC. I can't imagine how awkward it's going to be to do that whole input dance on a controller.

Edited by Teridax68
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3 hours ago, chaotea said:

I feel the other way round. It makes more sense to me to tap to cycle, and hold to cast. Tapping is better if i want to cycle powers.

And this is exactly why options are supposed to exist.  Because me feeling the way I feel does not effect your feelings on it at all.  The way I play, I normally only use the most situationally suitable power.  So if I'm using Minelayer, it will be a lot of Flechette Orb, or a lot of Overdriver, or a lot of Tether, but not normally all at once.  Hold to cast feels like garbage when I'm going to be recasting a lot.  

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I can't imagine how awkward it's going to be to do that whole input dance on a controller.

The ability holding will probably get old fast for him no matter what they do, ngl.

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See, here's the thing. Tap to swap/Hold to cast is great for Ivara, and it makes sense. Unfortunately, this means that my min-range Titania's Tribute feels AWFUL to cast, as I have to hold the button while remaining within range and looking at the correct enemy in order to use it. I simply want to swap each frame so that their abilities feel right, and a generic "SWITCH EVERYTHING" button doesn't cut it.

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9 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Every ability Lavos has, has tap/hold functionality.  Tap/hold functionality sucks in this game in most cases.  The only cases where it does not suck, are the cases where, ironically, the settings for tap/hold functionality are ignored, like with the elemental augments for Volt/Oberon/etc.  In those cases, the primary function is always tap, the secondary function is always hold

this mechanic is why i freaking hate using wisp and vauban even when they are great frames (khora and xaku have it too, but she also have the luxury of never have to rotate the skill)

the only frame that feel fair with the tap/hold mechanic is Ivara - the first frame DE ever introduce the mechanic to. Yet it's simply because ivara have a separate button for the hold function with her exalted bow out - the alt fire button.

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9 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

  If I turn off the setting for inverting tap/hold then I will have to deal with these frames feeling like trash to use. 

Gauss is a Perfect example of this since his Cold Thermal Sunder will be hold to cast if inverted.... And no Gauss player wants this to be the case.

10 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Tapping now summons that bullet collector instead of the stationary bubble because of the inversion setting. 

What... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 😱😱😱 !!!! 

 

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15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I agree with the main criticism. There's no consistent standard around what holding and what tapping are generally supposed to mean in abilities with two separate modes, with Khora inexplicably being the exception to any possible standard set by Ivara, Vauban, and now Chroma, and with Lavos having hold-to-infuse, tap-to-cast abilities,

Well, I just explained it for the most part in the post right above.

Ivara: Access to all arrows in minimum input time. All arrow effects function concurrently.

Vauban: Same as Ivara, mines are concurrent.

Khora: Venari actions are not concurrent, so inverted - singular action easier to repeat (target multiple things for the offensive actions, re-position the heal action).

Titania and Wisp are both in a bit of a middle-ground. Their cycled abilities function concurrently, but typically both are likely to want to cycle each of their abilities sequentially each time (upkeep for Tribute, new patch of all three Wisp Motes). This makes tap/hold input time of a full cycle identical either way (4H+4T), but in situations where not-all of the options are desired (only the important Tributes, not wanting the shock CC mote), tap-cycle wins out over hold.

 

By the logic, Chroma cycling elements could be judged for either system. Minimising input for any element-ability combination promotes tap-cycle, but functions are not concurrent, so hold-cycle is also equally valid.

Lavos, as previously mentioned, is already operating on ability cooldowns so should default as tap-to-infuse. 

 

I'm not trying to say wanting an individual inversion option is wrong, but there is logic behind the variance for any set of >2 sub abilities.

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If it would also permit the same on weapons (some are secondary button to switch mode and some others are secondary button to fire).

And also permite to change the order of abilities and fire mode (whene there is more than 2) ^^'

Edited by MacIntoc
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2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I'm not trying to say wanting an individual inversion option is wrong, but there is logic behind the variance for any set of >2 sub abilities.

But that's not really a logic, so much as a mild amount of pattern recognition that doesn't inherently justify the discrepancy and, by your own admission, leaves room for ambiguity in the case of Chroma, Titania, and Wisp. Concurrent or not, if every ability were tap-to-cast, hold-to-switch/infuse, any player who plays a frame with one such mechanic would be familiar with any other, without having to think about whether or not the frame's effects apply concurrently.

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1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

But that's not really a logic, so much as a mild amount of pattern recognition that doesn't inherently justify the discrepancy and, by your own admission, leaves room for ambiguity in the case of Chroma, Titania, and Wisp. Concurrent or not, if every ability were tap-to-cast, hold-to-switch/infuse, any player who plays a frame with one such mechanic would be familiar with any other, without having to think about whether or not the frame's effects apply concurrently.

Subjective logic is still logic. If it were objective and not ultimately down to personal use cases there wouldn't have been a possible need for a switch option at all. :clem:

Like I said, I'm not here to say it's infallible, but to observe there's been an observable consistency in the abstract.

Lavos is probably going to buck the consistency trend, but that's because it's a spread of alternate inputs across all abilities, not a single one's cycle/cast, so the devs would likely decide it to feel odd having all ability casts locked behind the alternate-input as the default behaviour. Bit of an exception in design.

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23 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Allow us to individually set which tap/hold abilities are inverted and which are not.

OP I wholeheartedly agree with your logic and reasoning on the matter you addressed. Your post was well thought out and constructed.

 

I am typically a grumpy old man playing devil's advocate no matter the topic I read in these forums and for once that stance has been broken.

 

You have this grumpy old man's seal of approval!

Edited by Aesthier
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2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Subjective logic is still logic. If it were objective and not ultimately down to personal use cases there wouldn't have been a possible need for a switch option at all. :clem:

Logic is by definition not subjective, and there's a conflation here between two separate use cases: for sure, preference over whether to tap or hold to cast for those abilities is subjective, hence those options, but by that same token, the current situation we have means players who prefer one scheme will be forced to either contend with the other or switch for specific frames, which is not ideal. If every ability of that sort were to follow the same scheme one way or the other, that would be objectively more consistent than if some abilities followed one scheme and others followed the opposite, as is the case now.

2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Like I said, I'm not here to say it's infallible, but to observe there's been an observable consistency in the abstract.

... if you introduce entirely conjectural factors to try to justify the inconsistency. When you look at the whole, it is certainly not consistent.

2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Lavos is probably going to buck the consistency trend, but that's because it's a spread of alternate inputs across all abilities, not a single one's cycle/cast, so the devs would likely decide it to feel odd having all ability casts locked behind the alternate-input as the default behaviour. Bit of an exception in design.

There isn't really a consistency trend to begin with, and if anything Lavos should be an indicator that tap-to-cast by default is likely to work better for most players, with those who disagree able to invert as they wish (including Lavos's own inputs). Whether players prefer tapping or holding to cast the ability, that is something that should be up to them, not the whims of whichever developer implemented a certain kit with tap-hold mechanics: a consistent scheme would address that, whereas the current inconsistency between frames does not.

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1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Logic is by definition not subjective, and there's a conflation here between two separate use cases: for sure, preference over whether to tap or hold to cast for those abilities is subjective, hence those options, but by that same token, the current situation we have means players who prefer one scheme will be forced to either contend with the other or switch for specific frames, which is not ideal. If every ability of that sort were to follow the same scheme one way or the other, that would be objectively more consistent than if some abilities followed one scheme and others followed the opposite, as is the case now.

Objectively, the two use cases are logically consistent; max(ability access) : min(input time).

Subjectively, a player may want to not access multiple abilities and treat a cycle-ability as if it had no concurrency, but the base design is still for the sub-abilities to be all usable in the best accessible case.

That means the dev's subjective (intended usage) logically dictates defaults consistent with the overarching difference. The player's subjective change in usage (or arbitrary control preferences not placing value on accessibility over time) logically dictates switching from the defaults where not in alignment.

And that being pure subjectivity means it might follow for one frame and not another, so individual swaps are good.

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15 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Objectively, the two use cases are logically consistent; max(ability access) : min(input time).

Subjectively, a player may want to not access multiple abilities and treat a cycle-ability as if it had no concurrency, but the base design is still for the sub-abilities to be all usable in the best accessible case.

That means the dev's subjective (intended usage) logically dictates defaults consistent with the overarching difference. The player's subjective change in usage (or arbitrary control preferences not placing value on accessibility over time) logically dictates switching from the defaults where not in alignment.

And that being pure subjectivity means it might follow for one frame and not another, so individual swaps are good.

I think this makes a good case for individually configurable schemes per frame, of which I'm completely in favor, but I don't think really answers the question of present inconsistency. If players want to make a distinction based on concurrency, sure, but clearly not every player operates along that line of thinking, and the inconsistency across frames for what tapping and holding is meant to do by default I don't think really benefits anyone, as it adds confusion and nobody can really be expected to infer a distinction based on concurrency of abilities or the like. Thus, it would still be good to set a default across all frames, whether it's one flip of the switch or the other.

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I just wish I could customize additional options for certain abilities.  Like...Removing Noisemaker and Stealth arrow from Quiver or such.  

I mean...if your build doesn't focus on these, they are useless....so its just best to remove them to reduce all that "cycling" or to simplify controls.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

so individual swaps are good.

I'm not reading all the weird ass arguments you guys are having about subjectivity, but this was all I needed to see to pick sides lol.  Options to allow player preference are always a good thing.  By virtue of being optional, they cannot screw over anyone, and can only help those who opt in to change settings.  More options, like individual swaps, are a good thing.  100%  

Edited by (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan
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  • 1 month later...

Lavos for me is mastery fodder. If I wanted to manage cooldowns, I'd go back to Destiny. Only way I would consider playing this frame is if they removed the cooldowns all together and replaced with using armor, health, shields, or energy. I would subsume this frame but I would not disrespect my other frames by chaining an ability slot to a cooldown. If the aforementioned change is not implemented, the 7500 credits I will get is worth more than Lavos.

I'd use Grendel or Zephyr before this frame and my usage on them is .01%.

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