Jump to content

Operation: Orphix Venom - Lavos Feedback Megathread (Read First Post)


Recommended Posts

With the release of Operation: Ophix Venom, you can snake your way into a new Warframe, Lavos!

 

Lavos has some new mechanics, a new style of play, and a lot of adaptable skills for you to experiment with. Lavos does not use energy in the same way as other Warframes, and his abilities have some nuance that is important to learn while mastering!

PASSIVE
Energy and Universal Orbs give Lavos status immunity for 10 seconds. Hold any Ability to imbue the next cast with additional Elemental Damage and Status. 

OPHIDIAN BITE
Lash out with a toxic serpentine strike, consuming the target to heal Lavos. Hold to imbue all Abilities with Toxin.

VIAL RUSH
Dash forward, crashing through enemies and leaving an icy trail of broken vials. Hold to imbue the next Ability cast with Cold.

TRANSMUTATION PROBE
Launch a probe that converts Health and Energy Orbs into Universal Orbs that provide both, and Ammo pickups into Universal Ammo Pickups. The probe shocks enemies in close proximity. Each electrocuted foe reduces Ability cooldowns by one second. Hold to imbue the next Ability cast with Electricity. 

CATALYZE
Catalyst Probes erupt from Lavos and douse combatants in a fiery gel. Damage is doubled for each element afflicting an enemy. Hold to imbue the next Ability cast with Heat.

NOTE:  

Just now, [DE]Bear said:

Tenno - we are looking at issues with Lavos’ Catalyze Ability having some problems affecting enemies on the vertical plane (above and below the point of casting). This issue is currently being addressed internally, and we are planning on fixing this with a hotfix - hopefully coming very soon!

You can find out how to earn Lavos (and his signature weapon, the Cedo) by speaking to Father on Deimos, or he is available on the Market for purchase!

If you have any thoughts on Lavos, please leave them here, but remember that all feedback should be constructive, civil, and honest. If you like something, let us know! If you dislike something, give us a description of the issue and what you would change to make it better!

If you encounter any bugs, please use the Bug Reporting forum to let us know what you have found!
 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

So far I think he needs a couple minor tweaks.

 

Passive

EDIT: With the elemental mixing, I find myself trying to mix elements so often that it becomes annoying and cumbersome. Perhaps allow the element to either stay for a few ability casts? Or to stay for a short duration? Then the player can override the element as well by choosing a new one if they have to. It got REALLY annoying during an infestation mission to go Heat, 2, Heat, 4, Heat, 3, Heat, 2.......you get the point. Mixing a single element was annoying, it gets worse when you need viral, corrosive, radiation, etc. A small grace period where I don't have to worry about mixing would be very nice in the long run

 

Ohidian Bite

With Ophidian Bite, I often find myself missing the attack, even at close range. It feels like it should work like whipclaw, but maybe that's why I'm having issues with it. Only being castable on the ground is a bit of a pain as well. This may very well be just me needing to use him a bit more though

EDIT: From what I can tell the bite isn't aimable like Whipclaw, which is why I think I'm having some issues hitting enemies

EDIT 2: The cooldown feels too long for what this skill does. Vial Rush has a shorter cooldown! 

 

Vial Rush

I wish Vial Rush allowed me to steer it a bit, kinda like Gauss. I end up stuck in walls more often than not. The duration is pretty generous on the dash, even with negative duration, but lack of control turn that into a bit of a nuisance

EDIT: I don't think aimgliding is an option during Vial Rush as well, meaning Lavos drops like a rock in the air. Would love to do a sort of Napalm Strike by being able to halt my descent with aim glide

 

Transmutation Probe

EDIT: This ability feels way too short-lived. Would like to either see its cooldown reduced, or to have some of its cooldown converted into its lifetime

 

Catalyze

Catalyze mentions a fiery gel. I wish it would actually drop a fiery gel as it flies. It can easily fly harmlessly over enemies that are slightly below you in elevation. Basically, give it the Gara Glass Wall treatment

EDIT: From what I can tell, this ability is really only good when paired with Cedo since the alt fire can apply status very quickly. Otherwise, there's just too much setup time for this ability to be as strong as it should. I saw a comment that noticed that it doesn't take its own status into account. If Catalyze could take its own status, including the imbued status, that could help a lot with the immediate lack of damage.

Edited by EchoesOfRain
  • Like 33
Link to post
Share on other sites

New frame kinda struggling a lot vs high level content, notably armored content:

- Cooldowns feel too long, status duration is affected by power duration despite no indication(oversight or intended?), non-scaling dmg struggles

- Turns out the rework to corrosive sucks! and building a frame that depends on it makes said frame struggle a lot!

- Catalyze not creating damaging surfaces in place to continue hitting enemies multiple times makes the ability worse than they could've been, it should create lingering gel puddles and cover enemies in lingering gel for a time allowing it to deal some dmg after its effect, not only that, its already very long cooldown is also annoyingly increased by its duration since it only starts after the ability is done, this sucks!

- Transmutation Probe's cooldown reduction makes little sense considering the ability is one of Lavos' best status spreading ability, meaning to maximize dmg on Catalyze(which sees a dmg increase for each statuses afflicting a target) it should be used BEFORE catalyze to spread statuses, but that means u wont get the cooldown reduction for Catalyze by using it AFTER, ALSO, why does it only proc ONCE per enemy? even if u stop it manually with enemies around it, it only gets the CD reduction once per enemy ever it seems? or only on the 'initial' electric proc? whats even the point of being able to stop it then? it also has rather low duration and base range could see a small increase

- Even with that maximized dmg, Catalyze, the big hitter on a very long 30 second cooldown, struggles a lot vs armored heavies, it also struggles with verticality as it has no vertical hitbox, the projectiles actually behave like flat discs! i've also noticed its not acting as advertised, getting the 100% dmg bonus per status stack rather than per unique status, which leads to the confusion of it sometimes being able to kill high level enemies even through armor

- Not being able to cancel or steer Vial Rush makes it VERY hard to control, specially in tight spaces  NVM, apparently it can be cancelled its just finicky about working, seems jumping is the most reliable way to cancel it

- Ophidian Bite's dmg also is worthless vs high level armored units, retains some usability due to healing power, maybe some guaranteed status procs + either auto-scaling or the same dmg boost per status stack Catalyze has would help here

-Vial Rush is prolly his best designed ability: short CD, good rushing skill, spreads lots of statuses! mainly only has 2 big flaws: the "puddles" arent affected by power range AND no steering the rush

- The arbitrary nature of tap/hold mechanics needs to be addressed, allow us to set this in individual configs rather than a universal toggle

in the end Lavos' dmg potential truly needs adjustment, as was feared during his recent showcase in Dev Stream #150 in which he was barely keeping up with low-mid level grineer from the kuva fortress while the build being used had *over 300% STR* granted i've now discovered he can do dmg through unintended means as described above
 

...

 

Cant really think of many solutions that dont involve reworking/tweaking aspects of the game not uniquely related to Lavos(mainly statuses), but making so his damaging abilities actually scale(like Xaku's Grasp of Lohk or Vauban's Flechette Orb) would prolly be the easiest and safest bet, tho it would require changing base dmg values, DE you created a way for abilities to scale, USE IT! PLEASE!

adding an increase to status duration to the statuses caused by Lavos' powers as part of his passive and removing dependency on power duration would also help

edit 2: some good ideas!

On 2020-12-18 at 10:23 PM, MrTitan123 said:


Ophidian Bite: OB is a nice health sustain ability, granting Lavos health in return for dealing damage. However, since damage teeters off with armor and higher levels, Lavos needs a better way to reliably keep himself healthy. There are two solutions that would makes this ability more impactful.
A. Reduce Cooldown by 1 second per enemy hit- In theory, the more enemies you hit with the ability, the faster you'll be able to use it again. This promotes the already established playstyle of careful ability casting. Greater patience, greater reward.
B. Increase damage based on enemy level- Ophidian Bite does toxin damage by default, making it potentially powerful at all levels if given this scaling treatment. Pairing it with the first point will allow it to be a solid direct damage dealing ability, as well as consistent sustain.


Transmutation Probe- This ability as mentioned earlier, is designed to reduce the cooldowns of other abilities. Unfortunately, the impact is has besides crowd control is negligable. Having this ability on cooldown is heavily restrictive, especially in the heat of battle. When you need to use it, you need to use it NOW.
A. Make Transmutation probe castable at an angle instead of adhering to the ground. The probe has a wide range and can be halted, so worries about missing are negligable. However, aerial enemies must be accessible too.
B. Transmutation Probe no longer has a cooldown, but instead takes 25% of Lavos' health per cast. Extra casts and cooldown, but at the cost of blood; you can't make something from nothing.

 

Catalyze- This ability is potentially very strong. The damage multiplier is rather nice, though difficult to make use of. The lack of sticking damage makes the cooldown of this thing agonizing to sit through.
A. Reduce cooldown for each enemy hit by 10% each up to 50%.
B. Apply the damage similar to a napalm- each enemy hit has the incendiary gel stick to them, doing consistent damage over time or stick to the ground in a trail, creating hazards.
 


another fun thing to consider would be....... actually making it so enemy armor stops breaking game balance!

edit: kinda wish i didnt get merged but oh well

Edited by TKDancer
  • Like 16
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, PsiWarp said:

@TKDancer play a bit more with Lavos first, because his 2 and 3 can be stopped

i've tried tapping, holding, jumping and dodging, nothing stops it on my end besides time or a wall, usually walls

1 minute ago, PsiWarp said:

 Use 2 and 3 to spread non-damaging status like Corrosive since those proc 3 stacks per damage instance, which can stack up to 10 very quickly in the AoEs.

i literally addressed this

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been thinking of an alternative for the Elemental Mixing gimmick Lavos has [OPTION1]:

  • What if players could customize the element damage each of Lavos' abilities do in a special window much like how Octavia can customize her abilities with the Mandracord (forgive me if I misspell it).

Then if controller feels too clunky [OPTION2]:

  • Another option I could see is if giving Lavos some sort of buff based on the current Element Imbuned before he casts an ability.
     

A third possible way to make mixing better can include this [OPTION3]:

  • Make every enemy hit by Lavos' abilities be marked by the element they are hit with. Being hit by a second ability with a different element triggers it to deal additional damage as the combined element.
  • Holding down the ability turns the ability to "mark" the enemy.
Edited by FoxFX
  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, FoxFX said:

I have been thinking of an alternative for the Elemental Mixing gimmick Lavos has:

  • What if players could customize the element damage each of Lavos' abilities do in a special window much like how Octavia can customize her abilities with the Mandracord (forgive me if I misspell it).

sounds awful, octavias song is mostly aesthetics, element mixing is needed to deal with immediate threats using the correct elements, and it already struggles as is

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

sounds awful, octavias song is mostly aesthetics, element mixing is needed to deal with immediate threats using the correct elements, and it already struggles as is

Perhaps, but we also have to consider how this playstyle would feel for console players. Also, there is practically one or two Elements you would mostly use for a specific Faction which you would be facing most of time in missions.

Edited by FoxFX
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, FoxFX said:

Perhaps, but we also have to consider how this playstyle would feel for console players.

 

i use controller, i'd rather have the current jank than having to change my elements per mission on a clunky menu

4 minutes ago, FoxFX said:

Also, there is practically one or two Elements you would mostly use for a specific Faction which you would be facing most of time in missions.

thats a separate issue

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Then if controller feels too clunky:

  • Another option I could see is if giving Lavos some sort of buff based on the current Element Imbuned before he casts an ability.
Edited by FoxFX
Link to post
Share on other sites

Lavos is a really good warframe, original, and feels good to use; the last 2 warframes released are really fun to use and are good without being too OP. But Lavos, even if has cooldown on his abilities, is a warframe for skill spamming. So requires a good casting speed, and the current casting speed feel a bit slow for the 3rd and 4th skills. 

The capacity of combining elements on "hold" is fundamental for the skill tree, but is really annoying and slow to use holding 2 keys before each cast. So i was thinking giving "charges" to solve this, 3 probably will be fine, "the next 3 abilities" having that element combination in addition to the natural one. 

Another thing, he doesnt use energy, so we need more support ingame to know what mods or arcanes doesnt have any impact on it like:

Arcane Energize, Rage, Augur Set, etc

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, TKDancer said:

New frame kinda struggling a lot vs high level content, notably armored content:

- Cooldowns feel too long, status duration is affected by power duration despite no indication(oversight or intended?), non-scaling dmg struggles

- Turns out the rework to corrosive sucks! and building a frame that depends on it makes said frame struggle a lot!

- Transmutation Probe and Catalyze not staying in place to continue hitting enemies multiple times makes both abilities worse than they could've been, Probe should travel a small distance(maybe allow a recast to manually stop it) and cause it to linger, shocking enemies that get close and applying the cooldown reduction effect to them, same for Catalyze, it should linger for a time in an area to apply its gelatinous effects

- Transmutation Probe's cooldown reduction makes little sense considering the ability is one of Lavos' best status spreading ability, meaning to maximize dmg on Catalyze(which sees a dmg increase for each statuses afflicting a target) it should be used BEFORE catalyze to spread statuses, but that means u wont get the cooldown reduction for Catalyze, ALSO, why does it only proc ONCE per enemy? even if u get it stuck on a wall with enemies around it, it only gets the CD reduction once per enemy ever it seems? or only on the 'initial' electric proc?

- Even with that maximized dmg, Catalyze, the big hitter on a very long 30 second cooldown, struggles a lot vs armored heavies, it also struggles with verticality

- Not being able to cancel or steer Vial Rush makes it VERY hard to control, specially in tight spaces

- Ophidian Bite's dmg also is worthless vs high level armored units, retains some usability due to healing power

- The arbitrary nature of tap/hold mechanics needs to be addressed, allow us to set this in individual configs rather than a universal toggle

in the end Lavos' dmg potential truly needs adjustment, as was feared during his recent showcase in Dev Stream #150 in which he was barely keeping up with low-mid level grineer from the kuva fortress while the build being used had *over 300% STR*
 

...

 

Cant really think of many solutions that dont involve reworking/tweaking aspects of the game not uniquely related to Lavos(mainly statuses), but making so his damaging abilities actually scale(like Xaku's Grasp of Lohk or Vauban's Flechette Orb) would prolly be the easiest and safest bet, tho it would require changing base dmg values, DE you created a way for abilities to scale, USE IT! PLEASE!

adding an increase to status duration to the statuses caused by Lavos' powers as part of his passive and removing dependency on power duration would also help

another fun thing to consider would be....... actually making it so enemy armor stops breaking game balance!

edit: kinda wish i didnt get merged but oh well

Sorry, i cannot agree with the 95% of the things on your comment. Skills 2 and 3 can be stopped using the skill again. And the damage output is insane i tested it against lvl 170 heavy armored units, using just skills and no forma. Corrosive projection + Full umbra build + stretch + adaptation + fleeting expertise / arcane guardian and arcane grace.

 

This warframe is similar to grendel, similar build, tanky and high damage skills. Is like 1 + hold 1 grendel skill combo, u wait until the enemies are debuffed and just hold 1. Lavos is a tank debuffer too. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

First impressions ~30 min playing in survival. +Edited after playing some more, changed my mind on 2 skill, +passive.

Elemental buffs and combos are great (thats what Chroma should've been!).   Hold/Tap functionality on every key is NOT good, he's awkward to control. Needing to hold 2 keys to refresh a combo buff is pain, swapping tap/hold makes his abilities feel unresponsive, and they have animation cast locking you too - so it combines. At least he is not an ability spam frame so its not a total funkiller.  Suggesting: don't reset elements every time after casting

Speaking of abilities:

1  - I dont even care to use it cause its slower and less reliable than using operator to heal, not great, should be more responsive/quicker casting. But I guess its fine for those who lack other quick heal options. Still would be better to have it cast on the go without animation interrupting other actions.

2 - It actually does pretty high damage  (moded for 200+ str and high range ) cause it procs multiple times, its map dependent and very good in tight spaces like hallways but not when mobs are scattered around. Low cooldown allows to use it all the time  - so the visuals might be too much with huge piles of rubble everywhere.

3 - Pretty good cause AOE DOT/status and soft CC, targeting may be wonky

4 - huge cooldown for some meh damage?  Damage can be high, but the main problem is that ult is unreliable and misses a lot - posted a video below. It doesn't feel good. I mean we are in a game with free spammable nukes, this ult is super underwhelming for its limits.

Cooldown system is very limiting since we have free energy and no cooldows on 99% of the abilities allowing us to spam everything.

Passive is really crappy, its not there when you need it cause only 10sec from orb and not stacking -  no ones looking for it's cooldown - there is already fairly complicated ability setup on this frame with cooldowns and elements to keep player busy.  Its like very unreliable gimped Atlas passive.

 

Edited by Monolake
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Preface: Lavos is a rather interesting Warframe, with one of the most peculiar and interesting kits so far! His abilities are fully functional with little to no bugs or technical issues. I enjoy how he functions, but he is not without gameplay issues. This summary hopes to highlight his strengths and weaknesses before attempting to address them.


The Idea: Lavos is themed around Alchemy, and his kit revolves around combining elemental damage types to create something new to unleash onto the battlefield. This makes him rather diverse and able to have an effect on any faction he is pitted against. His abilities are solid, dealing damage over wide ranges and allowing for hefty crowd control if managed properly.


The Problems: Lavos' kit instead of using energy, uses cooldowns on each of his abilities instead. This promotes careful management instead of simply spamming abilities left and right. The only problem is that the only way to reduce those cooldowns is from an ability which itself can go on cooldown. Additionally, Warframe is a horde shooter, which means that you will be near-constantly taking damage. The sustain and damage Lavos can deal pale in comparison when paired with restrictive cooldowns, especially at higher levels. However, his abilities can be tweaked to better allow freedom of ability usage while still maintaining the theme of alchemy and the use of cooldowns.

Ophidian Bite: OB is a nice health sustain ability, granting Lavos health in return for dealing damage. However, since damage teeters off with armor and higher levels, Lavos needs a better way to reliably keep himself healthy. There are two solutions that would makes this ability more impactful.

A. Reduce Cooldown by 1 second per enemy hit- In theory, the more enemies you hit with the ability, the faster you'll be able to use it again. This promotes the already established playstyle of careful ability casting. Greater patience, greater reward.
B. Increase damage based on enemy level- Ophidian Bite does toxin damage by default, making it potentially powerful at all levels if given this scaling treatment. Pairing it with the first point will allow it to be a solid direct damage dealing ability, as well as consistent sustain.

Vial Rush: This ability is actually pretty well balanced. The mobility it offers in exchange for cooldown is pretty nice. Though the blast radius of the vials could be improved. More radius means more status effects applied, which is good. Additionally, if he doesn't already, give Lavos a direct damage hitbox when running into enemies with this ability.

Transmutation Probe- This ability as mentioned earlier, is designed to reduce the cooldowns of other abilities. Unfortunately, the impact is has besides crowd control is negligable. Having this ability on cooldown is heavily restrictive, especially in the heat of battle. When you need to use it, you need to use it NOW.
A. Make Transmutation probe castable at an angle instead of adhering to the ground. The probe has a wide range and can be halted, so worries about missing are negligable. However, aerial enemies must be accessible too.
B. Transmutation Probe no longer has a cooldown, but instead takes 25% of Lavos' health per cast. Extra casts and cooldown, but at the cost of blood; you can't make something from nothing.

Catalyze- This ability is potentially very strong. The damage multiplier is rather nice, though difficult to make use of. The lack of sticking damage makes the cooldown of this thing agonizing to sit through.
A. Reduce cooldown for each enemy hit by 10% each up to 50%.
B. Apply the damage similar to a napalm- each enemy hit has the incendiary gel stick to them, doing consistent damage over time or stick to the ground in a trail, creating hazards.


Well, that's all I have to say on Lavos. Good in theory, slightly frustrating in practice. I do hope this feedback is appreciated.

Respectfully, MrTitan123

Edited by MrTitan123
Typoooos
  • Like 11
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mauromw said:

i tested it against lvl 170 heavy armored units, using just skills and no forma. Corrosive projection + Full umbra build + stretch + adaptation + fleeting expertise / arcane guardian and arcane grace

and i tested it vs lvl 100 heavy gunners(after 135 proved too much for poor snake man), also with CP and with nearly max STR(everything except growing power and pax bolt): godawful inconsistent dmg, sometimes kills, mostly doesnt, seems to be tied on getting multiple 'gel throwers' to hit the same enemy(and using the Probe for more procs instead of CD reduction which is counter to the kit's design), and simulacrum isnt an accurate representation of the frame's viability in real missions, the game doesnt stop after u kill 20(or less) neatly grouped enemies, this is where the bad cooldowns and the issues with the Probe's CD reduction(only procs once, or only when 1st applying electric procs, meaning enemies getting hit multiples times dont cause shorter cooldowns) come into play

also, a frame should NOT require 300%+ STR to be viable at high content levels

1 hour ago, mauromw said:

This warframe is similar to grendel, similar build, tanky and high damage skills. Is like 1 + hold 1 grendel skill combo, u wait until the enemies are debuffed and just hold 1.

grendel's skills actually have auto scaling, so wrong there too, tho he does lack armor stripping(outside of digesting enemies that is) which hurts his kit a lot, what do you even mean by "wait until the enemies are debuffed"? you mean wait until  i've eaten them and their armor melted inside the belly?

1 hour ago, mauromw said:

Lavos is a tank debuffer too. 

a frame struggling to deal dmg cause of design flaws(both for the frame and the game as a whole) doesnt make them a debuffer, a """""""debuffer""""""" doesnt get an ability meant to do thousands of damage that doubles per proc afflicted on enemies, extremely tired of this mindset...

tho wanna know whats a cool debuff i can put on any frame i want cause of helminth? fireblast! consistent 75% PERMANENT and stacking armor strip! or pillage, 25% armor and shield strip that scales with STR AND restores my own shields to boot! the armor strip ALSO being PERMANENT!!! neither on a cooldown!!!!!!!!!!!

1 hour ago, MrTitan123 said:


Ophidian Bite: OB is a nice health sustain ability, granting Lavos health in return for dealing damage. However, since damage teeters off with armor and higher levels, Lavos needs a better way to reliably keep himself healthy. There are two solutions that would makes this ability more impactful.
A. Reduce Cooldown by 1 second per enemy hit- In theory, the more enemies you hit with the ability, the faster you'll be able to use it again. This promotes the already established playstyle of careful ability casting. Greater patience, greater reward.
B. Increase damage based on enemy level- Ophidian Bite does toxin damage by default, making it potentially powerful at all levels if given this scaling treatment. Pairing it with the first point will allow it to be a solid direct damage dealing ability, as well as consistent sustain.


Transmutation Probe- This ability as mentioned earlier, is designed to reduce the cooldowns of other abilities. Unfortunately, the impact is has besides crowd control is negligable. Having this ability on cooldown is heavily restrictive, especially in the heat of battle. When you need to use it, you need to use it NOW.
A. Make Transmutation probe castable at an angle instead of adhering to the ground. The probe has a wide range and can be halted, so worries about missing are negligable. However, aerial enemies must be accessible too.
B. Transmutation Probe no longer has a cooldown, but instead takes 25% of Lavos' health per cast. Extra casts and cooldown, but at the cost of blood; you can't make something from nothing.
 

very good ideas

Edited by TKDancer
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
His Kit works well in all missions where CC is an option. with near instant access to every Element in the game you can adapt to each Situation.

At first i was secptical regarding efficiency only affecting the colldown reduction that his 3rd Ability provides. After some testing i became aware of the possible builds this design decision enables. with the build i came up with Lavos is not only incredible Tanky thanks to adaption and a full Umbra Set, but he can apply all kinds of Status effect in a huge area.

The only Ability that isn't feeling that good when using it is his 4th. When using it, it ignores all enemies that are even slightly lower than the probes. i would appreciate it if the Damage hitbox could be increased by 1m or 2m above and below the drones so that casting it dosnt feel wasted that often due to elevation differences between the probes and the enemies.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some general feedback

It needs to be indicated in the kit that affects the duration of all of Lavos' elements.

 

OPHIDIAN BITE

As Lavos' only form of damage output aside from his ult, the timer on OB feels unnecessarily longer for what it achieves. While being able to customize the element of the skill allows it have a universal advantage vs all enemies, it's cool down even when paired with Transmutation probe leaves Lavos in frequent periods of inactivity due to the probes own inherent cool down. It's heal regen is actually pretty good.

Suggestion: Enemies killed by OB should reduce the cooldown of OB by 1s. 

 

VIAL RUSH

This skill..doesn't do much or anything aside from mobility and a way to form Viral damage. Taking into account Lavos' kit and issues with enemy armor, Vial Rush vials should reduce enemy defense by a % or increase their damage vulnerability to elemental damage (to keep in theme with his kit) This gives him some team synergy 

 

TRANSMUTATION PROBE

Probably his most well balance skill. It's base range could be brought up abit from 6 to 8m considering it's the glue that binds his kit together.

CATALYZE

This skill does some crazy damage.. to unarmored enemies (armored too but it needs quite abit of set up) but this the rewards : setup ratio is off for this skill

  • To get the best out of this skill you want to pepper your enemy with status before hand and build the to the right element. Either external weapons or a cycle of Lavos kit creating the proper elements
  • The disk do despite visually similar to Transmutation probe have no method of deal with vertical drops. Similar to Gara's  ultimate before it was fixed. The will go straight and ONLY straight.
  • The disks can't be held in place which greatly reduces their damage potential as they quickly pass by enemies

I'm all for micromanaging however this skills definitely needs far too much for something with a 30s timer. Transmutation probe can't be a one of fix for this as it is reliant on high enemy density very high density so you're not waiting 20s to use it again

 

Suggestions:

  • Allows the disk to have vertical AoE and respond to gravity so it can hit enemies above/below it
  • If you tap 4 before it reaches it maximum distance it will stay in-place until it is over similar to transmutation probe.
  • For the current setup it needs to be effective a cooldown of 20s would be considerably more fair.

 

Overall Thoughts- Lavos isn't a bad frame but the micromanaging he requires just doesn't fit the reward he gives. Vauban, Ember, Gauss are similar frames that require abit of micromanaging but their kit is considerably more rewarding so it feels worth it. Lavos can cycle the elemental spectrum but his capabilities are limited(all his utility to a team is held in Transmutation Probe), he has very to little CC (just a slow) his damage needs considerable set up but is penalized by a harsh cooldown relaint on another skill to make it work.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi everyone

here we go again with another mastery fodder frame.

Lavos has 2 big problem atm, first his damage and second his kit

1- his damage is so low that non of his abilities are worth using in any shape or form, so if DE don't buff his damage significantly he's unusable.

2- now that we talked about the damage lets talk about his stupid kit:

OPHIDIAN BITE: This ability is a joke, first of all, piss poor damage and its a single target ability, so if you need healing and you miss the target, you're #*!%ed because now you have to wait for the cooldown to end.

or you can heal your warframe with many other efficient and better ways that are already exist in the game, DE knows this ability is trash, that's why they put the toxin element on it so we can't replace it with a better ability because you won't be able to make corrosive if you replace this Stupid ability.

VIAL RUSH: This ability is kinda Ok, first of all, piss poor damage like the first ability but at least it gives you a pretty nice mobility that we can... wait a minute, OOOR

I can bullet jump instead of using this ability, Fire Walker is a much better ability than this.

TRANSMUTATION PROBE: Oooooooh boy, where do I start with this one, this ability single handily ruins his entire kit, its because of this ability hes a cooldown frame not a energy based frame, its because of this stupid ability that putting efficiency on him looks stupid because for some #*!%ed up reason extra efficiency can't shorter the cooldown on his abilities but instead it'll add's extra duration to this ability so IF AND I MEAN IT, IF YOU MANAGE TO HIT ANYONE WITH IT, IT'LL SHORTEN THE COOLDOWN'S ON YOUR ABILITIES, AND YOU'RE CONSIDERED LUCKY, BECAUSE THIS BAD BOY GET STOCK TO EVERYTHING, AND IF YOU DOESN'T HIT ANYONE WITH IT THAN YOU HAVE TO WAIT FOR IT'S STUPID COOLDOWN TO END, SO YOU CAN USE IT AND MISS AGAIN, AND IT'S MOVEMENT SPEED IS SO BAD THAT YOU CAN OUT RUN IT BEFORE IT CAN CONVERT THE DROPS INTO UNIVERSAL DROPS.

DE know's that this ability is trash that's why, you guessed it, DE put the Electricity on it so you won't be able to replace it with any other ability because without the electricity you cant make corrosive, AND WORST OF ALL IF YOU REPLACE THIS ONE, YOU"RE GOING TO OFFICIALLY #*!%ED YOURSELF OVER BECAUSE NOW YOU CAN'T LOWER THE DURATION ON YOUR OTHER ABILITIES, THAT MEAN YOU HAVE TO KEEP THIS ABILITY NO MATTER WHAT.

CATALYZE: OK i'm getting tired so I'll speed it up, the stupid cooldown on it is too long and the 3rd ability is to annoying to use so I can benefit from the poor damage that this ability deals, looks cool doesn't do S#&$.

CONCLUSION: Wast of time, Wast of plat, Lavos has no place in the game atm.

is he a DPS? No

Is he a CC? No

Is he a Support? No

What is he? a wannabe an overwatch character with his stupid cooldown's.

He's ESO on steroids, I can't belive that I'm saying this but Inaros and Grendel have better kits than this overwatch character. 

My Disappointment Is Immeasurable And My Day Is Ruined

I think I'll take a break from the game, have a nice day everyone.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

So far Lavos is fun (I'm a big fan of "mixing" systems, like in Magicka or Gauntlet, for example), but I found some minor gripes that keep me from enjoying whole gameplay loop:

1 - seems okay, but aiming is inconsistent. It could use maybe some innate cooldown reduction per enemy hit so it could be used as a reliable damage source while all other casts are on cooldown, or go in "combo mode" with timed 2x-4x multipliers that Rhino Charge, Fireball, Landslide, etc. have with cooldown starting only after you miss your attack.

2 - Good stuff, easy to manage in combo with 3, great status spreading tool, BUT it is too clunky to use. Why didn't it have steering like Gauss has? Always bumping into walls or small objects while not being able to controll yourself durning animation that long is painful.

3 - good performance, but feels like it's lacking something that justifies it's long cooldown. It's supposed to be tool for recasting abilities, yet -1s isn't noticable with 1 and 4. It's supposed to be used after ult to quickly regain it back, yet I always find myself using it as an ult primer instead. Maybe it could get something like -cooldown to itself per X transformed pickups. Or +drop chance for enemies hit; it would make for more reliable pickup source and add to "Alchemist" archetype, while also expanding looter frames list.

4 - on Steel path setup for max damage against armored targets is too long compared to other frames; also it doesn't take it's own procs into account when calculating damage. In general it could use some adjustments to verticality, had a lot of cases when enemies were not hit because they were standing on stairs or slopes little below the ult. Same vertical expanding zone like in Gara's 4 would be nice.

For now those are the only things that I would like to see some treatment for, maybe I'll have something to add after the weekend play sessions.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I like Lavos so far.

  • Being able to combine elements on the fly, simultaneously, makes him feel a lot less clunky than I expected. I didn't even notice that the game takes 2 inputs at once, making the combination process much faster.
  • Finisher opener on Ophidian Bite is great for Ultimatum users such as myself. It does suffer from the Zakti syndrome, however - it gets overridden by other status animations, so its easy to miss.
  • It also feels fun to exploit enemy elemental weaknesses and apply specific status effects, by using knowledge of enemy stats.
  • While not meta-levels strong, abilities do fine when it comes to killing enemies you'll encounter everywhere aside from endurance/steel path content.
  • Being able to spread vials around Lavos by re-casting Vial Rush is great. Good work whoever thought of this!
  • I actually like what you did with his "secondary" passive. I was afraid that his passive will be the whole mixing gimmick alone, but thankfully you also gave us status immunity on top.

Some improvements would be welcome, as usual:

  • Let us aim the Ophidian Bite.
    • It's already rather restrictive when it comes to movement/range, not being able to hit anything but enemies in front of you certainly doesn't help.
    • There are also many other options to regain health in Warframe, so this ability is the #1 Helminth replacement option for me right now, depending on how elemental mixing works with it. Basically, I will only keep it in my kit if Helminth replacement won't let me use toxin damage mixing.
    • Please fix the status/panic animations overriding the finisher window.
  • Certain cooldowns feel a little bit too long and power efficiency only seems to affect the effectiveness of the Transmutation Probe which is NOT good, because that ability is on a cooldown too. There is a difference between those 2 eff words hehe.
    • Perhaps make it so that Transmutation Probe has 2x or 3x efficiency multiplier or something, because right now it only seems effective if you cast it when there is like 20 enemies grouped next to each other.
    • Lavos is not great at grouping up enemies and range of the Transmutation Probe is rather limited, so in a lot of cases you're basically just waiting for your cooldowns to end instead of actively casting your abilities. Perhaps increase its range slightly?
    • It is also kept back by 75% efficiency limit. You should remove it. The build already takes a big hit from -60% duration for 90% efficiency and on Lavos it also regulates status duration.
  • Vial Rush needs to have steering. People have been asking you to give it to Hydroid for years already, yet you refuse to give it even to a new frame. Why? Why do you not want us to actually control our characters, instead of slamming into geometry? It's such a cool ability, kept back by 2014 design of its "mobility" part. Everyone loves Wukongs cloud walk, give that functionality to other frames.
    • Give Vial AoEs range scaling.
  • Catalyst Probes of Catalyze need to have same control functionality as the Transmutation Probe. Although their damage is great when you stack like 20 status types on the enemy, its not as good if you compare it to just meleeing same group enemies with Condition Overload. For 30 seconds of cooldown I expect something better. I do understand that it might be difficult to pull off since it would basically transform it from range-scaling ability to the duration-based ability such as Pillage or Molecular Prime.
  • It would be nice to see the number of status stacks each ability applies.
  • That idea of mine that probably won't get any support, but I think you should also add some deeper synergies for certain, uh, how do I put it lightly, WEAKER elementals of the bunch. For example, make it so that Magnetic combo, when used with Transmutation Probe would pull enemies towards it. It would certainly fit the "mixer" theme and also make it worthwhile to use certain elementals in encounters without faction-members they're most effective against.
  • Changing vial amount and probe cooldown reduction scaling to strength from range would be welcome. I don't like it when frames use backwards logic when it comes to ability stat scaling and require you to spec into several power stats, because we still have to sacrifice mod slots for HP/Armor mods. Its the same situations as gimmicky mods for weapons - people don't like them because we have to sacrifice several slots on basic mods such as damage/multishot and we simply don't have enough PLACE in our builds to support the "funny math".
Edited by Lone_Dude
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Very brief summary of the issues with Lavos' kit.

Passive

  • Status duration modifier makes Lavos too heavily dependent on duration.

Solution?
Cap the minimum status duration at 50% to prevent completely killing Lavos' build diversity concerning low duration builds.

First ability

  • Cooldown is a bit too high considering this appears to primarily be a health-regen ability.
  • Aiming is very inconsistent, misses targets pretty frequently when you have high range (appears to target fairly well if you are on the same horizontal plane as enemies.
  • Not hitting a target gives full cooldown on the ability. If the ability misses, it should refresh instantly.

Solution?
Adjust targeting mechanic to auto-aim at nearby targets a bit more consistently. Reduce penalty for missing targets (either remove the cooldown altogether or cut the cooldown by like half). Cut cooldown by 2s.

Second ability

  • Range is both a benefit and detriment to this ability, high range means you throw more vials but you throw them farther out from wherever you stop the ability. High range also makes the max dash distance really really high. Not sure how I feel about this. If you don't stop the ability you can easily overshoot a target by quite a distance.
  • The vials that get tossed along the path appear pretty consistent for the most part but occasionally (if you are in the air, going down steps or something?) Lavos will not toss vials, resulting in large gaps between his AOE zones.

Solution?
Reduce base dash distance by 25%. Allow vials to drop while on uneven terrain or in the air. Small increase in size of vials and reduce total number of vials dropped (so the circle AOE is less like a donut).

Third ability

  • Using this to add more status effects to targets prior to unleashing the 4th ability is counter-productive to the ultimate use as a cooldown reduction ability.
  • Stays on the field for a very limited amount of time, ultimately not very useful in reducing cooldown timers because it is on a very long timer itself.

Solution?
Increase duration of third ability when deployed or give it multiple charges on separate cooldowns (ideally 2-3 able to be deployed at once, cooldown starts on each one independently). Or just remove the duration on this altogether and limit it to one on the field at any given time (kind of like Wisp's motes) and greatly reduce the cooldown between uses (5s?) to prevent spamming.

Fourth ability

  • Severely hindered by no vertical range.
  • Cooldown is very long.
  • Cast animation is very long.

Solution?
Add vertical height of 4m above and below projectiles. Reduce base cooldown to 0s if no targets hit, increase cooldown based on targets hit up to a max value. Speed up cast animation by 10%.

Subsumed abilities:

  • All subsumed abilities do not show cooldown time on the helminth ability page. You currently have to subsume an ability to see its cooldown timer.

Solution?
Adjust helminth ability sheet to display cooldown value (also adjust this to show shield value for hildryn).

Overall Lavos is a pretty interesting frame. Much better on release than Xaku but he is very very busy (lots of button presses and not a whole lot of payout for basic combos). Very tanky frame with a viable self-heal and better status application methods than all other frames.

 

Edited by Leqesai
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Eeggghhhh... Lavos is foundationally sound, but at the moment he's got so many problems it's hard to even know where to start. Conceptually, he works, just very badly. Mechanically almost everything is glued together well, the numbers on everything are bad, though.

 

Damage on his 1 2 and 3 is too low, getting his 4 to actually do damage takes way too much setup, so it ends up being too low in practice, too...

Cooldowns are too long, no way to shorten them except his 3, which doesn't shorten its own cooldown...

His 3 is the only thing effected by efficiency meaning it's a useless stat for all of his other abilities, but dumping it makes his already too long cooldowns even worse...

He needs all this micro management to mix elements, which needs to be done every single ability use to maximize his abilities, but his 2 and 3 also need micro management, and it directly conflicts with his mixing.

There are hit detection and terrain related problems with three of his four abilities, and the one that doesn't have this problem has melee range, and leaves you often asking why not just use your melee weapon instead...

He really feels like he needs a weapon that can blanket a ton of status over a huge area for his 4- thankfully his shotgun does exactly this- but his design really limits your weapon selection, in a way that is especially bad in Warframe's heavily crit biased meta...

 

In short, I'll just say I echo most of everything that's been said here already regarding his shortcomings. My hopeful side wants to say a bunch of number changes could make things work, but my pragmatic and realistic side realizes cooldowns for the most part just don't work in Warframe, and are going to make him incredibly difficult to balance versus other frames.

I'm getting Revenant vibes, in the sense that I think he's going to be a frame that even after numerous patches is still going to have deep issues pertaining to bits of design that just don't work in Warframe, but are tied to the core of the frame's gameplay.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

You Serious DE max stat and this is what i get 0.75sek of CDR why Efficiency cap even exist on Lavos ?

41D1DCC7405F86CB207DCBF2B8B318966452A784

This warframe need real CD CDR balancing or straight up make probe CD really short 10sek is way too long for key ability to work with his kit, also elemental dmg dont combine they just stack on top of each other.

Edited by moonfallen
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Ult has terrible accuracy and needs a fix, notice how guys on the left take big damage and die, and guys behind me too (see minimap) BUT the mobs I was actually aiming at got missed entirely. Its especially bad for mobs that are on another height and seems random, which feels really unsatisfying to use. 

The visual and sound effects on ult are also lacking and it can be hard to tell if it hits anything other than damage numbers.

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven’t played Lavos but I thought of an idea for his 1.

Make his 1 to where his snakes will seek out enemies, latch onto them and siphon health to Lavos while emitting zones of toxin damage.

When Lavos passes through those zones, the toxin can imbue his other abilities to create viral/gas/corrosive.

Or we can keep how it works currently to a quick tap cast, and you can hold cast on 2 different enemies to send the snakes out.

Edited by (XBOX)Damizza
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...