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Operation: Orphix Venom - Lavos Feedback Megathread (Read First Post)


SilverBones

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Some first thoughts on Lavos -

Looks are amazing the art team really outdid themselves, chunky boi gaspunk with wristsnakes yet still recognisably warframe it's one of my favorites aesthetically.

Abilitieswise I'm not sure what it is Lavos is missing. Cooldowns are a novel idea but I don't feel his abilities have the kind of impact to warrant being unavailable especially for Catalyst at 30 seconds. Bite is a riff on Khora's whiplash but where Khora can smack multiple enemies at massive damage Lavos is inferior in every way with only lifedrain. Vial Rush is another move in a straight line Tidal Surge/Reave that is actively antagonistic to level design and cancelling it is not consistent. Catalyst is Miasma with no verticality and slower spread. Transmutation is Lavos' most unique ability but even that is limited by being a projectile with poor range and no lockon. Transmutation only works on drops and enemies but you will never get these in the same cast it seems to work against itself and the rest of his kit.

A rough idea of additions - inflicting an instance of a status proc speeds up the cooldown of all Lavos' abilities. A new proc takes off a second, multiples of the same proc take off half a second. If an element is not chosen to imbue Lavos imbues a random status effect to his next ability cast. Any status proc inflicted by Lavos refreshes the duration of any and all status procs that enemy is suffering already. Very controllable way to get reliable ability use that doesn't rely on energy just Lavos' ability to poison, corrode, burn etc. Can skip imbuing except for when you want to. Duration refresh so Lavos isn't limited by mod choice.

Ophidian Bite - strikes multiple enemies. 

Vial Rush - when ability is ended Lavos chugs his last vial boosting his own weapon damage and status chance with the imbued element (does not happen if element imbued is left random). Leaves behind long lasting pools on the ground. Lavos is an alchemist he drinks his own mixtures.

Transmutation Probe - grants 3 charges of the same ability on a 10 second cooldown each - when probes are paused the radiate their imbued element outwards for a good duration like what the Zenistar disc used to do. When Ophidian Bite is cast the discs release snakes that crawl throughout the area transforming pickups into their universal variants, every time an ally picks one of these transformed drops up they get both a small elemental damage boost (that accumulates with every pickup) and refreshes Lavos' abilities by 0.2 of a second. Combines both the pickups and striking enemies which is much more forgiving since you get 3 to use.

Catalyse - coats all enemies in a fiery gel that detonates removing all status procs and triggering chain explosions - the explosions scale up based on level and amount of status procs and change element based on the procs. Takes into account own status effect. Synergises the rest of the kit, status effects to speed up cooldown, use, wipe status effects clean and start again.

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The only ability that I can think of feedback for is Transmutation Probe. From my understanding it has a three second (un-moddable) duration and the probe can be stopped. Given the short duration there is almost no reason to stop the probe as enemies generally won't have much (if any) time to walk into it. The solutions I thought of for this would be to:

1) add another 3 seconds to probe duration if/when it is stopped- this would give enemies a little bit more time walk into it if you, the devs, decide to keep the probe's duration un-moddable

2) double the total range of the probe while it is stationary- this would act like a last-chance grab at extra cool down reduction and transmutation of pick-ups. This option could pair with option 1 without being too much of a change.

3) make the probe duration moddable- this would give enemies time to walk into it even when stopped when modded for duration; however, this option would not be recommended if you, the devs, were to pair it option 2 as it could lead to (rapid) ability spamming and option 1 would be redundant if paired with this option

4) give better scaling with efficiency (as in making it so that with max efficiency you get 4 seconds of cool down reduction)- this option would make the ability worth using for the cooldowns reduction gains, but wouldn't be recommended with options 1 or 3 (as it would most likely lead to ability spamming, especially if paired with option 3) and is questionable if it could pair with option 2 without leading to ability spamming.

TL;DR version of the notes, options 1 and/or 2, option 3, or option 4 could work at improving the ability, but all four would be a bit too much under certain circumstances.

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After thinking more about Lavos my suggested changes would be.

1. Make elemental prepping permanent. When you use a third element it will shift to that single element, if you want no element active, use the same single element that is currently active to clear it.

2. Remove the CD reduction on his #3 and add it to his 1, 2 and 3. The new setup will only effect his #4. Kinda like how other games treats the charge up of ultimate abilities. Amount of CD reduction could be 1.0 across the board since they already have their own limitations by being melee, hybrid or ranged skill options.

3. Streamline the CD's of 1, 2 and 3. Give them all a 5 second CD for better gameplay flow and a more involving kit, plus a more comfortable "rotation" playstyle.

4. Please, for the love of the gods, fix his vial rush so it doesnt cancel sprint upon use!

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Personally i like lavos hes a relatively balanced frame. If his cooldowns were lower and had either an armor strip ability or a ability for damage reduction. i guess adding the healing factor to vial rush while giving it invincibility while dashing . The making orphin bite armor strip the base in a cone shape maybe 50% if it keeps its current cooldown and 25-30% if its shorter also giving it the ability to absorb armor or defenses as a whole. everything else is fine except the cool down of the last ability

 

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Am 19.12.2020 um 21:15 schrieb kyori:

Every time when cast an ability and the selected element will be used, hence we must select again and again every time we cast his abilities.

Proposal: Make the selected element stays, but only change if we decided to use another element instead. This way, we don't have to keep selecting the same element each time we want to cast an ability. Also, since the element will stay, pressing the same button(s) again will deactivate it, defaulting the abilities to non-element state.

THIS a thousand times! DE pls - the solution is there, just do it. Mixing elements after every single cast is a pain gameplay wise.

Best regards.

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I’m not enjoying this frame

His 1 really shouldn’t require the transmutation probe to be consistently cast. It should be reduced down to 4 seconds as I’ve found that to be the best time to mix elements and cast the ability.

Duration should not be effecting the Status duration on the weapons Lavos is holding. That heavily disincentivizes the player to ever go below base duration as it nerfs the effectiveness of your weapons.

Other than those 2 things I’m just overall not enjoying the cooldown gimmick and find that Lavos would honestly be a much more consistent frame if he had a traditional energy pool.

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Having built Lavos and played him, I find he needs four things.

1. Multiple charges of his combined elements. Having to combine after every single attack is very annoying to me. And as fast paced as this game is, the time it takes to do that can get me killed. I feel like we should get a stack of 'vials' as part of his ui element, possibly effected by his efficiency. Combining an element fills the vials, using a move drains one. More efficiency gives more vials.

2. Vial rush needs to be steerable. Also the status cloud needs to be bigger or something. It seems unreliable,it needs to drop a big status cloud that lingers for a while. This is his main attacking move and yet it's difficult to hit much with it, enemies are rarely grouped up nicely and many maps don't have nice long hallways. The steering will help a bit with navigating and the status clouds should synergize with his 4 and hopefully hit the enemies that you missed as they stumble after you. Right now it doesn't seem to a lot of the time.

3. Transmutation Orb needs to go through walls or something. It gets hung up on any piece of scenery and renders the move useless. I brought him into onslaught and he was seriously useless in those tiles because they don't have hallways and aren't necessarily nice and flat with no obstacles. With so much verticality in the game because our frames are so mobile, a move that needs straightaways are at a real disadvantage and it will only get worse from here.

4. Why don't his vials glow with your energy color!? It would be so pretty!! I swear he used to glow when Reb first showed him off, I need more glowiness please.

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14 hours ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

 

Passive augment idea:

Every ability now leaves behind a consumable (which is affected by vacuum) for Lavos and his Allies that applies imbued (and or raw) element damage from the ability to weapons for xx seconds with 50% strength. (scales with strength, so at 200% strength its 100% extra elemental damage)

Yes yes yes.

with this augment idea, i could potentially solo profit taker with lavos using ANY element

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Some basic Lavos changes I would make.

Ophidian Bite should have a 5s cooldown, not 8s. For a "first" ability, it's the one I use the least by a massive margin. Base damage could also stand to be higher. Really needs a better targeting check.

Vial Rush shouldn't reset sprint state. I don't know why it does. But I would prefer it not to. Range should also modify the puddle size. This ability is a bit too linear, and could stand to have a little girth. Steering it would be fine, but that's not how I'm currently using it.

Transmutation Probe should fly forward towards reticle when you cast it, not follow the ground. It's almost unusable on vertical maps like Granum defense.

Catalyze could use a more obvious visual cue. It's hard to tell exactly where it hits, and once again, it's limited by verticality. The real problem I have with this is the long windup the cast has, preventing it from easily being cast in midair. It's doable, but you really need to work on the timing of it.

I'm actually fine with the way element infusion works, as it incentivizes you to not just spam viral damage, but I can see why PC players hate it. 

Otherwise, this is my favorite release in a long time, probably since Hildryn. Lavos is just fun to play, and pretty devastating. He's a bit of a one-trick pony in terms of being a damage bot with a mild healing capability for the group, but he's one of the only frames that can generate archgun ammo. Also, I love the visuals. The Cedo is also a ridiculously good gun, too.

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10 minutes ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

Some basic Lavos changes I would make.

Ophidian Bite should have a 5s cooldown, not 8s. For a "first" ability, it's the one I use the least by a massive margin. Base damage could also stand to be higher. Really needs a better targeting check.

Vial Rush shouldn't reset sprint state. I don't know why it does. But I would prefer it not to. Range should also modify the puddle size. This ability is a bit too linear, and could stand to have a little girth. Steering it would be fine, but that's not how I'm currently using it.

Transmutation Probe should fly forward towards reticle when you cast it, not follow the ground. It's almost unusable on vertical maps like Granum defense.

Catalyze could use a more obvious visual cue. It's hard to tell exactly where it hits, and once again, it's limited by verticality. The real problem I have with this is the long windup the cast has, preventing it from easily being cast in midair. It's doable, but you really need to work on the timing of it.

I'm actually fine with the way element infusion works, as it incentivizes you to not just spam viral damage, but I can see why PC players hate it. 

Otherwise, this is my favorite release in a long time, probably since Hildryn. Lavos is just fun to play, and pretty devastating. He's a bit of a one-trick pony in terms of being a damage bot with a mild healing capability for the group, but he's one of the only frames that can generate archgun ammo. Also, I love the visuals. The Cedo is also a ridiculously good gun, too.

very well done analysis, i also agree on all of these complaints. :) 

to add more: for an alchemist Warframe i hope transmutation probe transmutes more objects, like loot, mods and maybe enemy weapons.

it only effects orbs and ammo, these aren't really needed at all with lavos. 

also he needs an extra passive, energy giving him status immunity is a necessity not a passive ability, since he can't benefit from energy orbs like normal warframes.

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Just now, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

very well done analysis, i also agree on all of these complaints. :) 

to add more: for an alchemist Warframe i hope transmutation probe transmutes more objects, like loot, mods and maybe enemy weapons.

it only effects orbs and ammo, these aren't really needed at all with lavos. 

also he needs an extra passive, energy giving him status immunity is a necessity not a passive ability, since he can't benefit from energy orbs like normal warframes.

I think TProbe doing anything more would make Lavos too powerful. I think the passive granting status immunity is far better than you're giving it credit for. And if you don't think health and ammo are important, well, that just means you're ready for higher level stuff. I just wish modding for duration would increase the passive's duration.

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7 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

I think TProbe doing anything more would make Lavos too powerful

Lavos is a long way off from being too powerful, considering there are singular abilities that do a better job than the entirety of Lavos' kit.

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5 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Lavos is a long way off from being too powerful, considering there are singular abilities that do a better job than the entirety of Lavos' kit.

Exactly.

 

Desert Wind does more damage than all the damage from Lavos's abilities combined, constantly, and does a better job of spreading conditions.

Lavos's 2 is the worst mobility ability in the game since you cant even steer it.

Lavos's 1 is like a crappy Khora whip that doesnt scale off of weapon and puts a whole 1 stack of a condition on something and a small heal....

 

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2 hours ago, Rauvian said:

Desert Wind does more damage than all the damage from Lavos's abilities combined, constantly, and does a better job of spreading conditions.

...All right that's fair, but Desert Wind does have fairly limited range. You also don't have to maintain Restraint to use Lavos. Though to Baruuk's credit, you can slap Xata's Whisper on him and make DW literally break the game. Same for Excalibur with Chromatic Blade. Then again, Baruuk is just Excalibur Jr.

2 hours ago, Rauvian said:

Lavos's 2 is the worst mobility ability in the game since you cant even steer it.

It's not a mobility ability. Yeah it moves you quickly, but it's more of a zoning ability. Infuse it with Radiation or Fire and it'll keep a ton of enemies out of the fight. You can also jump while it's casting to halt it and drop a ton of vials in a circle around you. 

2 hours ago, Rauvian said:

Lavos's 1 is like a crappy Khora whip that doesnt scale off of weapon and puts a whole 1 stack of a condition on something and a small heal....

The heal is only small if you hit only one target. But 8 seconds is also a long time to have to wait for it, like I said. This ability does need some love.

8 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Lavos is a long way off from being too powerful, considering there are singular abilities that do a better job than the entirety of Lavos' kit.

Not quite what I meant. I meant that Transmutation Probe transmutes. Having it upgrade loot would basically defeat the way DE does loot. As much as I would love to get literally hundreds of Orokin cells and gold-tier mods that aren't Undying Will or Thunderbolt, I also realize that DE makes its money by making you want to play more, and does that by making drop rates low. But again, the ability is far from perfect, and it would be nice to see some changes.

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Figured ide throw my 2 cents in here 

Lavos has the potential to be something amazing, but falls short in a couple areas that if fixed could make him amazing

Firstly scaling, Lavos does have scaling on his abilities, but it isn't really agressive enough. Lavos being cool down based means he can't spam multiple hits of an ability to kill. With that information it's quite clear the lavos needs something to enhance the damage on at least first two preferably his first three abilities. Now there's two ways to enhance this damage, the scaling damage on these abilities could be buffed up, or all of his abilities could be given the condition overload properties his 4 already has.

Nextly id like to discuss the only major flaw in Lavos' kit that I have found. It really feel like lavos could benefit from a grouping tool, and normally this could be fixed with helmith, but Lavos needs his elements for combos. Obviously the next option would be to add a pull effect (like larva or vortex) onto one of Lavos' abilities. The two candidates I see that could make the most sense are vial rush, or probe, however personally I thing ab enemy pull on the end of rush would be a great. Having the ability to group goes together would allow Lavos to spread statuses easier, and take full advantage of both the cone of bite, and the shock cooldowns on probe.

Now onto the more Minor tweaks 

* Bite: Bite is a pretty simple fix, reduce it's cool down by a bit. Bite should be castable every 2-3 seconds as the ability is both Lavos' main heal, and his main single target status applicator. Additionally if paired with either of the damage scaling suggestions the ability would be a great way to clear out smaller groups of enemies

* Rush: Rush is also very easy to fix, as it already is fairly solid. Rush could do with some range scaling as currently it's hard to hit foes with his puddles, meaning his main CC isn't super effective. It would also be nice if it could be controlled a little better, similar to  Gauss or hydroid. Additionally the for mentioned pull effect when ending this skill could really amplify Lavos' capabilities

*Probe: Probe is fine as is, but personally ide like it, if it lasted a bit longer, or if it wasn't stopped by walls. I also see many people wanting either a shorter cooldown on this skill, or for it to shorten it's own cooldown based on how many foes it shocked while active.

* Catalyst: This ability is great, only main down side is that it's vertical plain still needs a little work as it is inconsistent

Ide like to  end off by saying I love Lavos, top three favorite frames without doubt. I haven't switched off of him since release and already have a little too much forma in him. However I have noticed him not being able to keep up well in steal path missions, or against anything status immune, and I truly thing these changes would really help boost him into the endgame.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Lavos is really fun frame, I've spent lots of time going trough steel path missions with him. I went completely overboard and put 3 umbral forma to him.

I don't want to repeat what other people wrote I'll keep it short.

 

Here is what I would adjust:

His 1 is very irrelevant besides choosing element. I would make it heal damage over time instead instant healing. Damage seems to come in larger spikes, so having healing dot would be really nice addition.

 

His 3 should give bigger cooldown reduction for the first few enemies it hits so player could still get at least some cd reduction when there's only few enemies around.

 

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When you named the ability Transmutation Probe, and said it would change health and energy orbs  i honestly imagined something in the lines of mirage's explosive legerdemain, instead, we received an equilibrium effect that Lavos doesn't really need!

What i'm trying to say is that Transmutation Probe doesn't really transmute a lot of things, especially useful things for lavos

So here's a few suggestion to make Lavos Do some chemical magic :P 

1. Allow Transmutation probe to change/alter/add enemy weaknesses to the one currently infused in the passive.

For example, i have Corrosive in the Potion mixer (silly name i know) firing transmutation probe on enemies will make them 50% more vulnerable to corrosive

2.Allow Transmutation Probe to stay for an extra second for each enemy shocked 

make it more active one the field, which will further increase it's usefulness 

3.Make TP Add elemental damage buff for lavos' weapons based on the element infused in the potion mixer 

example i have Viral in the potion mixer, i fire TP on enemies for each enemy affected i get a percentage of a viral damage buff for my weapons.

 

 

Lavos is really amazing, i think he's my new favorite Warframe, but he needs more things to do than spreading status and doing damage 

you need to work on Transmutation probe the most

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On 2/2/2021 at 1:12 AM, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

Transmutation Probe should fly forward towards reticle when you cast it, not follow the ground. It's almost unusable on vertical maps like Granum defense.

I think this is an attempt to make the ability usable when mobs are below you.  I just wish it didn't stop at walls.

 

On 2/2/2021 at 6:15 PM, (PSN)SentientSickness said:

However I have noticed him not being able to keep up well in steal path missions, or against anything status immune, and I truly thing these changes would really help boost him into the endgame.

Same here, I usually start struggling around 180ish depending on melee and secondary. Hoping once I get Anomaly up to r5 it will help group mobs a bit.

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On 2021-01-27 at 11:38 PM, (NSW)lego126 said:

"Enemies affected by a Heat b.png Heat proc are ignited in flames and will panic and flail around for a few seconds, preventing them from taking any other actions"

Enemies set on fire do not keep shooting. 

"The status effect of Radiation b.png Radiation damage is Confusion. It changes the faction of the afflicted target for 12 seconds, allowing for friendly fire between it and normally allied units"

Are you sure you play Warframe?.?.?Just messing man, he's a monster, just give him a chance.

 

Try it in the sim nothing works kosma heavy gunners don’t care. He has zero hard cc and status affects don’t work the way they say radiating an enemy literally never works. You should know better if an enemy is firing or casting nothing stops them unless you rag doll them. 

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16 minutes ago, (PSN)palebluelight said:

Try it in the sim nothing works kosma heavy gunners don’t care. He has zero hard cc and status affects don’t work the way they say radiating an enemy literally never works. You should know better if an enemy is firing or casting nothing stops them unless you rag doll them. 

I'll try it out tonight.  Maybe it's different on the NSW, I've Simonds but honestly it didn't post much attention.  Ill let you know

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well DE ? it's been 48 days of feedback counting today, are you gonna adress anything at all of the given feedback or what ?

Unless you think Lavos is that masterpiece of warframe that he can be considered flawless but i don't think so, both from what i read and from many days of testing..

QoL mostly but nonetheless much needed ^^

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