Operation: Orphix Venom - Lavos Feedback Megathread (Read First Post)

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

8 minutes ago, --RV--arm4geddon-117 said:

well DE ? it's been 48 days of feedback counting today, are you gonna adress anything at all of the given feedback or what ?

Unless you think Lavos is that masterpiece of warframe that he can be considered flawless but i don't think so, both from what i read and from many days of testing..

QoL mostly but nonetheless much needed ^^

let them take their time with this one, he's a pretty powerful frame and in a very good state currently, i wouldn't want an overbuff 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Lavos:

·       Give the option to reset elemental combination by holding the abilities the third time.

·       30% of duration only give 2 secs of status duration, that should increase to 3 or 4 seconds to make it worth using.

·       Vacuum does not pick up energy orbs.

 

2nd ability:

·       Remain at the same sprint speed after you use the ability.

·       You can glide while using.

 

4th ability:

·       Decrease the cast speed time.

·       It can still affect enemies even if you cast it in the air.

·       Make it be able to travel over terrain.

·       Decrease the cooldown to 15 seconds.

 

He is a really fun warframe to play however he is imo the ugliest warframe in the game so unfortunately because of that I won`t play him. The only way I will play him is either he has a sick looking deluxe skin or when his prime version comes out (if it`s not ugly).

[Electropuncher]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

He is a really fun warframe to play however he is imo the ugliest warframe in the game so unfortunately because of that I won`t play him. The only way I will play him is either he has a sick looking deluxe skin or when his prime version comes out (if it`s not ugly).

Embrace the filth. Find beauty in the hideous.

Ophidian Bite, the more I play with it, really does feel like an afterthought. It really does need a more persistent effect (heck, even just a blind), a shorter cooldown (I suggest 3-4s), better LoS (a universal problem), and a heal over time (50% immediate heal, 50% over cooldown duration).

Status immunity should not exist in game. There, I said it. There is no point to giving us fifteen different statuses we can inflict and have enemies that literally are not able to get them. I can understand giving an enemy one or two types of immunity, but giving a foe the ability to just shrug off anything except raw damage reeks of terrible planning. It's literally a DM giving the players too many magic items so the only way they can make the campaign work is by ignoring the rules so their big bad they worked on for weeks doesn't get melted by a level 9 Fireball. That's more a systematic flaw than a Lavos flaw, but it does need to be addressed. And, as I've said numerous times, Viral is far too dominant of status and really needs to be kneecapped. 10 stacks of viral should only give you 200% extra damage. And while I'm on this status tangent, gas should penetrate shields, poison shouldn't.

Possible augments I would like to see:

Ophidian Bite: Ouroboros Strike - Now hits in a 5m radius.

Vial Rush: Vial Rocket: Vials are released in a cone behind Lavos. Distance traveled is 50% (affected by efficiency). Cooldown increased to 8s, arc of cone is 60 degrees (affected by duration).

Transmutation Probe: Transmutation Orbiter - Probe now orbits Lavos and lasts 30s. Casting any other ability ends this ability. 

Catalyze: Catalytic Chain - Enemies killed by Catalyst create an addition casting of Catalyze from their corpse for the remaining duration. Elements match original casting.

[b3rzz]

Ophidian Bite: feels more like a punishment to use, since if you miss the range and hit zero enemies, you go into cooldown regardless - you need to be too close to use it. - a hit-check could be enough.

Vial Rush: either you keep the toggle run after each use OR reduce his cooldown: zero control over his movement besides jumping/toggling it off + the cold effect is so limited that at least zig-zags as a movement option would make it more usable. regular gameplay usually puts you into odd places, stuck into some weird geometry that sometimes only the operator void dash can fix. the 

the skill effect is hard to manage. blobs should at least fall to the ground - since you usually face backwards to aim at the enemies you just rushed >> effects blocks your view

if you are using the toggle option = making the reactivation a really a forced action sequence, you will have to toggle it again after each use.(this really needs to be fixed for toggle users)

consider these aspects:

• the affected area is actually small - low damage + not really useful CC: unless you force it, you wont be able to line up more than 3 enemies within its path - its linearity + walk mode after use + anything colorful makes its use feel more like a punishment
• with a lower CD, the trade-off is manageable + kinda making it his signature move; with its current configuration you need to think 3 times before using it.

Transmutation Probe: looks like a good skill, the reduction feels nice in a simulated space but in reality you need too many enemies to make it worth it(sometimes the ability wont proc the reduction) + the movement is so restricted that 50% of the time, the probe gets stuck in some weird corner

Catalyze: only works in the same plane when casted + limited range + super long cast animation + 30s cooldown AFTER activation period  

 

overall, the frame feels like it could get by, only with his kit: it is fun to play but tiresome. in sessions where you really need his kit, you will usually end up with everything in cooldown, because no enemy will stay nicely close together for you to use your super powers. excessive when used with cedo or nukor, but lacking if you use anything else.  

in conclusion: considering the entire kit, changing how trasmutation probe procs or reducing the cooldown usage could help a lot, vial rush changing his walking/run speed makes it worse. reduced cd in exchange for small aoe/dmg could make it usable to make it a better experience while you still need to wait for the CD from the probe to reset. 

edit: lavos skills affect too few enemies for its cost, making it feel like the 1 is the only important skill, 23&4 are a bonus, because  you will kill the enemies with your weapon instead of putting the skill in CD

 

lastly: the character is only overpowered if you use a set of specific moves to make it work. really underwhelming - you only need to press 4 with mesa to get a better result. 

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

20 hours ago, b3rzz said:

lastly: the character is only overpowered if you use a set of specific moves to make it work. really underwhelming - you only need to press 4 with mesa to get a better result. 

that sounds more like a mesa problem. 

i can complain about how Volt has only melee speed and movement speed buff while gauss has all of his animations sped up with his redline, it's just not fair for Volt because i'm ignoring the other perks that he has that gauss don't

 

same thing can be said about lavos and mesa comparison, it's not a fair comparison for lavos because you ignored how good Lavos is at spreading multiple procs in a short amount of time, and how mesa is just a mindless turret that requires no effort and no style 

20 hours ago, b3rzz said:

you will usually end up with everything in cooldown

i don't know how you use Lavos, but i think this looks like you just spam his abilities all at once without careful management or planning.

try studying enemy weaknesses, know what each faction is weak to, and make an elemental combination specific for that faction. 

for example not all factions will die from a corrosive catalyze, because they're not vulnerable to that damage type 

[b3rzz]

6 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

same thing can be said about lavos and mesa comparison, it's not a fair comparison for lavos because you ignored how good Lavos is at spreading multiple procs in a short amount of time, and how mesa is just a mindless turret that requires no effort and no style 

i did compare to mesa because of that huge gap, but look at how many actions you have to perform to make his skill work with a good flow, since this game is fast paced?

the downtime, reactivation of run, extra kiting to prep the enemy so that you can kill it? even an ok cedo 0-forma does the job better. 

he might feel effective if you play in a steel path survival solo, since you will be facing 4x the usual number of enemies. but in reality, you lose out on effectiveness/mod slots to be able to survive in this mode

in regular gameplay you will be sitting behind to make sure your cooldowns are fine, while the rest of the group just drops energy pads and move on.

 

6 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

don't know how you use Lavos, but i think this looks like you just spam his abilities all at once without careful management or planning.

it is a feedback thread. their job, not ours to process the feedback. just like you have your lavos style, everyone else here plays with theirs. it is february and im still not hitting enemies in other elevations.

back to your reasoning: trying to use everything is a waste of time under lvl 100, because the mob will either die to the weapon pre-CCs during the kiting

in a place where you actually need to actively use his kit, a lower CD on his 2 would be effective in gaining time for the long 4 CD, still maintaining the feeling of a powerful character and help with the kiting.

take note here, im trying to make use of his abilities. if i need to make sure the situation is within the parameters every single time i want to use a skill, i will just pick another skill from helminth instead of using a liability 

maintaining a good rhythm with his skills is the kind of power fantasy we play but always feels you are 1s on the cooldown. 

 

now you wiped the whole room. the next mobs are already filling in, and you are now entering the 30s of your catalyze. you need to kite mobs until your 3 is back? 

lavos is outside the energy system, where an energy pad could fix some problems, all you can do is void dash to avoid heat instead of using something in his kit. 

maybe proc some ccs with your weapon to survive the damage and heal with your 1, that might fall short in a hurry. yeah you can still run away with the operator = its not a fix for the problem

 

i don't know how you play, saving your skill to use if you find a potential sponge enemy or a bunch of them and finishing the mission only really using it once or none, because everything died to your weapon. not to mention the number of times you are slamming your face in the wall to use the most of your 2. using your 1 to survive the cooldown reset of your 4 that the 3 did not reset enough. (not to mention the weapon synergy, that enforced use sequence to be able to make his kit really work)

 

6 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

try studying enemy weaknesses, know what each faction is weak to, and make an elemental combination specific for that faction. 

for example not all factions will die from a corrosive catalyze, because they're not vulnerable to that damage type 

this dream was gone 2 years ago. faction status might be ok if you force yourself to play with it, because there are better solutions out there. 

 

lastly, i hope that everyone that reads this, takes this opinion to consider, since its probably the most important factor in game design: 

just like octavia, you are constantly doing weird hand movements to keep everything up and use the most of your new character. tryhard players will even go to arbitrations with lavos: by the end of the session, your 4-man team will have you with +1000-abilities used, while the rest of the team will be under 100. the character is interesting, but in this really long farming game, DE wont give you a new hand, so don't break it.

[Electropuncher]

1 hour ago, b3rzz said:

i did compare to mesa because of that huge gap, but look at how many actions you have to perform to make his skill work with a good flow, since this game is fast paced?

the downtime, reactivation of run, extra kiting to prep the enemy so that you can kill it? even an ok cedo 0-forma does the job better. 

he might feel effective if you play in a steel path survival solo, since you will be facing 4x the usual number of enemies. but in reality, you lose out on effectiveness/mod slots to be able to survive in this mode

in regular gameplay you will be sitting behind to make sure your cooldowns are fine, while the rest of the group just drops energy pads and move on.

 

it is a feedback thread. their job, not ours to process the feedback. just like you have your lavos style, everyone else here plays with theirs. it is february and im still not hitting enemies in other elevations.

back to your reasoning: trying to use everything is a waste of time under lvl 100, because the mob will either die to the weapon pre-CCs during the kiting

in a place where you actually need to actively use his kit, a lower CD on his 2 would be effective in gaining time for the long 4 CD, still maintaining the feeling of a powerful character and help with the kiting.

take note here, im trying to make use of his abilities. if i need to make sure the situation is within the parameters every single time i want to use a skill, i will just pick another skill from helminth instead of using a liability 

maintaining a good rhythm with his skills is the kind of power fantasy we play but always feels you are 1s on the cooldown. 

 

now you wiped the whole room. the next mobs are already filling in, and you are now entering the 30s of your catalyze. you need to kite mobs until your 3 is back? 

lavos is outside the energy system, where an energy pad could fix some problems, all you can do is void dash to avoid heat instead of using something in his kit. 

maybe proc some ccs with your weapon to survive the damage and heal with your 1, that might fall short in a hurry. yeah you can still run away with the operator = its not a fix for the problem

 

i don't know how you play, saving your skill to use if you find a potential sponge enemy or a bunch of them and finishing the mission only really using it once or none, because everything died to your weapon. not to mention the number of times you are slamming your face in the wall to use the most of your 2. using your 1 to survive the cooldown reset of your 4 that the 3 did not reset enough. (not to mention the weapon synergy, that enforced use sequence to be able to make his kit really work)

 

this dream was gone 2 years ago. faction status might be ok if you force yourself to play with it, because there are better solutions out there. 

 

lastly, i hope that everyone that reads this, takes this opinion to consider, since its probably the most important factor in game design: 

just like octavia, you are constantly doing weird hand movements to keep everything up and use the most of your new character. tryhard players will even go to arbitrations with lavos: by the end of the session, your 4-man team will have you with +1000-abilities used, while the rest of the team will be under 100. the character is interesting, but in this really long farming game, DE wont give you a new hand, so don't break it.

1) How on Earth are you playing Octavia? Press 1, press 3, press 4. Maybe press 2 if things get weird. Make a song that you can spam crouch to without breaking the button. Not exactly hard. Octavia's the most braindead frame in the game.

2) Don't neglect efficiency on Lavos. You want to deal with the new set of enemies piling into the combat area? Hit 'em good with Probe. Even with just 130% efficiency, that's a huge refund. However, I will say that having only one ability reduce cooldowns does feel a bit weird.

3) Faction specific weaknesses actually matter a ton. While a lot of the playerbase has adopted a "haha viral go BRRRR" mindset, Magnetic/Toxic can actually be really useful against Corpus, and Gas is kind of the universal anti-Infested. Blast is really good against robotic enemies, too. Just because some statuses are terrible doesn't mean the associated damage type is useless. I had a sortie today where I was glad to use magnetic to take care of packs of Crewmen.

Lavos is one of those frames where the abilities are much more situational than others, so it's really hard have a good loop. It's not like Khora where you'll be mashing 1, or Xaku where you'll be managing seven abilities at once. You really are limited by your cooldowns, so you need to know when to use them. However, I do agree with a lot of your points about what could be done. I'd like to see Lavos have a more reliable way to make energy orbs spawn to get the most out of his passive.

[b3rzz]

now, that's a problem: the point that the kit itself is not bad, maybe a bit of CD balancing would only improve things. (just the movement skill is reaaaally bad right now, straight vector movement seems like a base concept they have created and i have the feeling they wont budge on this)

which leaves the real problem we have to face:

bad AI(like nyx's mind freak, even if you had a 5000% buff it still performs like a dead weight) and the power creep vs sponges.

CO helps a bit to diversify, but the use of the diversified faction loadouts we had is way in the past - shelved along with my 5-forma euphona with riven which i loved having around blasting enemies that had radiation weakness - the multi-status primer we got only glorifies the CO melee 3.0 we carry around like crutches 

well, its offtopic territory now. 

i hope they at least work on this cooldown thing. probably they will release an augment that imbues melee and while active, helps with the CD reduction.

and really review the messy movement on the 2 and 3s

[Crabopoulos-Michael]

Loving Lavos so far! I've been playing him steady for the last week or so and he's great. It was a bit clunky at first but once I got used to the imbuing and cooldowns he's very fun to play, specially in steel path and sorties where he can just melt everything.

If I could change something it would be making his 2 reduce the cooldowns instead of his 3 to speed up his gameplay. And, as many have said, make the imbued element persist to reduce button mashing a bit.

As a nice to have in the helminth department keeping the element on the skill you swap would be great, even if it doesn't apply the status to the new skill but just to keep all elemental combinations open for the remaining 3 abilities.

[(PSN)lhp_marcos]

Infusing any skill to Lavos simply remove the "Infuse skill with elemental DMG" passive from said infused skill... Pretty sure thats unnintended

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

1 hour ago, (PSN)lhp_marcos said:

Infusing any skill to Lavos simply remove the "Infuse skill with elemental DMG" passive from said infused skill... Pretty sure thats unnintended

i like that, i would love to have more helminth freedom.

replacing ophidian bite with something else, while still being able to infuse Toxin to the rest of my abilities

[(PSN)lhp_marcos]

On 2021-02-10 at 1:31 PM, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

i like that, i would love to have more helminth freedom.

replacing ophidian bite with something else, while still being able to infuse Toxin to the rest of my abilities

yeah i replaced vial rush with Pillage but can't infuse it with Cold, or mix other elementals with Cold...

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)lhp_marcos said:

yeah i replaced vial rush with Pillage but can't infuse it with Cold, or mix other elementals with Cold...

well, it wouldn't work on the ability itself knowing that some helminth abilities don't do damage types.

some don't do damage at all.

so it would just suffice to have the ability still give you the element on the rest of your powers

[Colyeses]

On 2021-02-10 at 3:44 PM, (PSN)lhp_marcos said:

Infusing any skill to Lavos simply remove the "Infuse skill with elemental DMG" passive from said infused skill... Pretty sure thats unnintended

It's not unintended, it's a massive oversight in Lavos' design. You cannot keep the infusion functionality when swapping out abilities via Helminth because some of the abilities that swap in have their own hold-to-cast effects that would get tangled up with Lavos' infusion mechanic.

Lavos is just not compatible with Helminth.

[LucMakai]

Ophidian Bite: Should have a much shorter cooldown. Sure it can heal a lot, but it's also missable and doesn't feel great as an ability. It stops you in your tracks and has a significant cast time so you wouldn't be spamming it in the first place. A 3s cooldown doesn't seem too short to me

Vial Rush: I think the size of the pools should be increased with range. It could be better as an offensive tool, since it's very lacking as a movement option. Personally I'd rather see it better as an offensive tool than movement one.

Transmutation Probe: It's fine, but I think it would be better if the ability didn't reduced cooldowns but all cooldowns were shorter in general. No abilities can be spammed, even with this ability because it has a 10s cooldown.

Catalyze: Lower cooldown. 15s base wouldn't be bad. It would still be unable to be spammed while not depending on Transmutation Probe.

Generally, I think Lavos main problem is his cooldowns. Personally I'd rather TB didn't reduce cooldowns but they were lower in general. 

Vial Rush is the only ability that I think needs changes on things other than the cooldown.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

I gotta admit, i'm a bit jealous that xaku got 3 phases of changes and buffs

While Lavos looks like he won't be getting any.

[Colyeses]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

I gotta admit, i'm a but jealous that xaku got 3 phases of changes and buffs

While Lavos looks like he won't be getting any.

I'm also a little worried about Sevagoth coming in very quickly too. I hope this kind of half-finished, underdeveloped stuff doesn't become the standard for Warframe releases this year.

[LucMakai]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

I gotta admit, i'm a bit jealous that xaku got 3 phases of changes and buffs

While Lavos looks like he won't be getting any.

Well, he was the community warframe, so I can see why. Plus, he was in a much worse situation at launch than Lavos is

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

1 minute ago, LucMakai said:

Well, he was the community warframe, so I can see why. Plus, he was in a much worse situation at launch than Lavos is

I honestly don't want to see Lavos buffs, i want to see more mechanics.

Like for example: Xaku got the untime buff that stopped other ability timers while untime was active.

I wish Lavos would get something unique other than being a status spreader and an AOE clearer 

[Colyeses]

3 minutes ago, LucMakai said:

Well, he was the community warframe, so I can see why. Plus, he was in a much worse situation at launch than Lavos is

Protea also got a few fixes after her release though. It's just a better standard of quality.

[alseltas]

Currently, playing Lavos is not satisfying for reasons.

The imbuing machanism is cool, but it requires too many key controls. The inbued element should remain until it is changed. When a secondary element is imbued, imbuing another element should simply overwrite it. 

Passive is okay but lacks synergy. He has no ability to actively produce energy orb other than helminth abilities. 

Helminth abilities are hardly infusible as they kill one of imbuing elements, mostly his 1 (toxin) and his 2 (cold) which consist of the best secondary element, viral.

His 1's cooldown should be halved. It has small range. and it is not ideal for procing statuses as it can't hit multiple times.  For this type of ability, 10 seconds cooldown is too long.

His 2 disables Toggled Sprint, which is really annoying. 

His 2, 3 and 4 lack any meaningful synergies.

While his 4 requires status effects on enemies to be useful, his 2 is not very well to proc enemies in wide range. The thrown vials range is too narrow, and 8 seconds duration with 5 seconds cooldown means only 2 or 3 vial rushes can be held at a short time. Given that, His 2 can only cover specific direction and area, that is definitely not enough for 25m radius of his 4. 

His 3 is not enough to babysit his 4. The range is too small considering he has no grouping ability, and the duration is too short. The probe itself cant pass through obstacles. In a squad play, other players can ruin this ability just by killing enemies in front of them. Also, modding for efficiency is not rewarding enough. While normal frames can reduce energy costs by 4 times with 175% efficiency, Lavos can only reduces cooldown by 1.75 times.  This ability barely cuts 10 seconds of his 4's cooldown. In anycase, reducing cooldown by using another ability which has also 10 seconds cooldown is not practical and fun at all. Alternatively I’d like to suggest modding for efficiency simply reduces cooldown of all of his abilities by the same amount as other frames. For example, if you have 175% efficiency,  the cooldown of his 4 will be 7.5 seconds.  

His 3 transmutates orbs, but he basically can't benefit from that. He has already health drain ability, and he can't  provide health orbs to be universal orb for the passive. Thus making universal orb is meaningless other than for mediocre support.  

 

Sorry for bad English.

[LegoPrime126]

2 hours ago, Colyeses said:

I'm also a little worried about Sevagoth coming in very quickly too. I hope this kind of half-finished, underdeveloped stuff doesn't become the standard for Warframe releases this year.

This has been the standard for many years.  How many things in WF lay 80% good, 20% broken? A S#&$ ton.  Lavos I really like, just need a few small tweeks.

[Vortex]

Actually i feel like Lavos can throw many skills but barelly do anything in high level missions, don't matter the status you use.

 

Skill 1- Reduce the recharge to 3.5~4 seconds, its a low range skill with only 1 status proc.

Skill 2- The damage itself is bad, i think that should do something like 2.5% of maximum enemy health per tick as damage, also don't disable the sprint.

Skill 3- Same as skill 2, should do something like 2.5% of maximum health per tick as damage, also, 3 seconds is really low, should be 5 at least as you can't change the duration.

Skill 4- Reduce the recharge to something like 15~20 seconds, also increase the casting speed.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

2 hours ago, Vortex said:

2.5% of maximum enemy health per tick as damage

lazy percentage damage shouldn't exist in the game

these abilities aren't your main source of damage, catalyze is...and you're utilizing it in a wrong way (i think) .

these two abilities are there only for status spreading 

 

also 

2 hours ago, Vortex said:

Actually i feel like Lavos can throw many skills but barelly do anything in high level missions, don't matter the status you use.

 

i kill steel path enemies easily with him i don't know how you use Lavos, but maybe try a different tactic.

 

these aren't the changes Lavos needs, he doesn't need more damage. 

[Colyeses]

On 2021-02-15 at 4:13 PM, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

these abilities aren't your main source of damage, catalyze is...and you're utilizing it in a wrong way (i think) .

these two abilities are there only for status spreading 

That's absolutely terrible though. One function spread out over three ability slots leaves Lavos with a total of two abilities. Less than half of the average.