(PSN)Hopper_Orouk Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 10 hours ago, MrFrog9 said: someone seems to be taking balance decisions in a game somewhat personally You're quoting the guy who's been taking revenant's theme and abilities extremely personally for 3 whole years since his release... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)GearsMatrix301 Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 1 hour ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said: Gears, i would very much appreciate it if you understood me and my point of view at least once for God's sake, you're so hard headed. What they're doing is a good start.. They're gradually making buffs and changes to him, no one wants an overbuff No I will never understand your point of view. Because it makes no sense. If a frame needs improvements they should get the improvements they need. This fear of “oh they’re gonna over buff the frame and they’re gonna be too good” is irrational and unfounded. Lavos is not in a good spot. He has the potential to dish out a lot of damage, but the way his kit works and how the cooldowns interfere with how his kits trying to work actively prevent him from being even remotely competitive with all the other frames that do exactly what he does but so much faster. Honestly, Blaze Artillery has a more effective lethal range than Catalyze and it’s attack range is a cone. And that ability doesn’t have an arbitrary 30 second cooldown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Hopper_Orouk Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 41 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said: being even remotely competitive with all the other frames When was creating competitivity between Warframes ever a healthy thing? we're playing a game with a character that can autolock all enemies in it's field of view and dish out Dps with insane speed. comparing other warframes to Lavos makes no sense, you're basically wasting your time and effort. and by the way, i never "vigorously" defended Lavos' previous state...i don't remember where you got that from? the only time i actually did not approve of a suggestion was someone who wanted to give Transmutation probe and vial rush percentage damage to enemies...which is something YOU YOURSLEF don't like on revenant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)GearsMatrix301 Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 1 hour ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said: When was creating competitivity between Warframes ever a healthy thing? we're playing a game with a character that can autolock all enemies in it's field of view and dish out Dps with insane speed. comparing other warframes to Lavos makes no sense, you're basically wasting your time and effort. and by the way, i never "vigorously" defended Lavos' previous state...i don't remember where you got that from? the only time i actually did not approve of a suggestion was someone who wanted to give Transmutation probe and vial rush percentage damage to enemies...which is something YOU YOURSLEF don't like on revenant. That’s the same argument Rebecca made for the Helminth system “if all the abilities are good then how do you know what to replace”. Everyone, even Rebecca when she said it, knew that is not a good take away. If every frame was within the same realm of performance with each other, while also keeping the unique factors that keep them different. Then it all comes down to what the player prefers. The way things are now you have the frames that can get things done, and the frames that you’re wasting your time with. I don’t mind percentage damage. The problem with it on Revenant is the fact that it’s applied in such a restricted and limited way that it’s ultimately wasted and worthless. Also, if Lavos abilities are going to have cooldowns and he has to wait to use them then they need to hit hard enough to justify that wait. So percentage damage would be a massive benefit to him. This isn’t League of Legends where each character has like 10 different attacks that you can cycle between as your waiting for the others to cooldown. This is a frame with 4 abilities, so if there’s going to be cooldowns each ability needs to support the fact that the other abilities may be on cooldown that that ability is your only option at that moment. Right now we have a frame who’s abilities do not support the play style DE is trying to achieve with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrFrog9 Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 8 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said: You're quoting the guy who's been taking revenant's theme and abilities extremely personally for 3 whole years since his release... TBH it was pretty hypocritical of me to say that since it literally contributed nothing and I only said it because I was annoyed at the words someone wrote on an internet forum, lol.E: For the sake of actually saying something on topic now that I am apparently here... I love Lavos's theme, visual design, and backstory (not that the visuals were ever in question, DE consistently knocks those out of the park). The way his abilities are set up give him a pretty surprising amount of depth and versatility that IMO elevate him beyond just being a simple gimmick; I've internally dubbed him the "Batman Frame" since it feels like he can do basically anything with enough knowledge and prep time. I started off thinking he was kinda lame, but I find myself enjoying him more and more as I learn new things I can do with his mechanics. Vial Rush being steerable was actually a huge improvement, since on top of improving its efficacy as a movement tool it also makes it better at actually covering the ground with vials. Instead of being restricted to a straight line, you can sweep out a curve or zigzag to cover a wider area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Hopper_Orouk Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 14 hours ago, MrFrog9 said: TBH it was pretty hypocritical of me to say that since it literally contributed nothing and I only said it because I was annoyed at the words someone wrote on an internet forum, lol.E: For the sake of actually saying something on topic now that I am apparently here... I love Lavos's theme, visual design, and backstory (not that the visuals were ever in question, DE consistently knocks those out of the park). The way his abilities are set up give him a pretty surprising amount of depth and versatility that IMO elevate him beyond just being a simple gimmick; I've internally dubbed him the "Batman Frame" since it feels like he can do basically anything with enough knowledge and prep time. I started off thinking he was kinda lame, but I find myself enjoying him more and more as I learn new things I can do with his mechanics. Vial Rush being steerable was actually a huge improvement, since on top of improving its efficacy as a movement tool it also makes it better at actually covering the ground with vials. Instead of being restricted to a straight line, you can sweep out a curve or zigzag to cover a wider area. i don't understand why you were annoyed at me in the first place when i pretty much agree with everything you just said about lavos. all i wish is for DE to buff Lavos without removing or dumbing down his versatility and gameplay mechanics. Gauss for example was a warframe that required a lot of movement pre buff, that was fun and engaging, but then they buffed everything about his battery to extreme amounts and removed this 'rush' and on edge feeling you get when playing him, which was the point of his entire theme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kainosh Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 Remove "no-double-tap timer" from Vial Rush, please. This timer is very long, while Rush is pretty fast. Just like Zephyr's Tailwind, it causes faceplanting and target overshooting....because "cancel" is blocked by that awful timer you just went and added for no reason whatsoever. It is entirely Player's fault if They mash buttons, cancelling Their abilities. If You want to help such Players, You better implement an OPTION instead of messing with individual abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Hopper_Orouk Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, Kainosh said: while Rush is pretty fast. Vial rush is fast? Did they increase it's speed or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kainosh Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 Just now, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said: Vial rush is fast? Fast enough to move me 10 meters past intended target before "cancel safety" is off. I usually double tap it to instantly explode in close combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrFrog9 Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 15 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said: i don't understand why you were annoyed at me in the first place when i pretty much agree with everything you just said about lavos. all i wish is for DE to buff Lavos without removing or dumbing down his versatility and gameplay mechanics. Gauss for example was a warframe that required a lot of movement pre buff, that was fun and engaging, but then they buffed everything about his battery to extreme amounts and removed this 'rush' and on edge feeling you get when playing him, which was the point of his entire theme OH NO lol i wasn't annoyed at you, dw you're good <3 E: I think some buffs I'd like to see would be to extend the range on Ophidian Bite a bit more (it's still quite short, and generally does little compared to Lavos's other stuff), and possibly increase the radius of Vial Rush's puddles and Transmutation Drone. Catalyse does ludicrous amounts of damage when it's set up but getting there can feel a bit limited, so improving his other abilities' scope will help Catalyse a lot just by itself. I'm personally fine with Lavos as he exists though. If he didn't get any further attention (beyond removing that godawful childlock on vial rush) I wouldn't be upset. E2: An addendum: I'd personally be quite upset if Catalyse's cooldown was reduced, or it was otherwise made easier to spam. Something I really like about Lavos at the moment is that you either have to use his nuke wisely or build specifically to facilitate spamming it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapn655321 Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 TYPE: In-game (Lavos Warframe/Helminth ability)DESCRIPTION: Helminth ability on Lavos occasionally reverts to energy cost while exiting archwing in Railjack missions. Remains unusable until dry-docked/aborted.VISUAL: [img]https://i.imgur.com/3sxMfbF.jpg[/img]REPRODUCTION: Leaving archwing, entering structures/ship.EXPECTED RESULT: Helminthed ability energy cost remaining consistent with cooldown.OBSERVED RESULT: Helminthed ability reverts to energy cost, becoming unusable on Lavos.REPRODUCTION RATE: Inconsistent, but common enough. ~1-in-5 missions if I had to guess. I specifically use Ice Wave in 1st ability slot. Have not tested with other helminthed abilities or 2nd/3rd/4th ability slots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapn655321 Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 I'm going to regret saying this.. but Lavos's cooldowns for railjack is super busted. Going to need to adjust these to be longer, or the entire energy system for Railjack is a waste. I don't need to fire turrets at all unless there's a crewship, even in Veil Proxima. Using exclusively railjack battle abilities to waste enemies as fast as they can spawn. With a fully leveled Seeker Volley, turrets only serve to wear down crewships, or to pick off a ship in the rare event it has any health left. Not saying I mind, because I enjoyed soloing the entirety of the new content up through Veil Proxima... but I'm going to guess that wasn't a conscious choice, considering the energy consumption restrictions for Railjack otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrFrog9 Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 oh right i guess most people might not read the other threads so imma pop this here:PSA that you can still cancel Vial Rush instantly by jumping out of it. you do go flying through the air wildly when you do this, but you can still leave a ring of vials around your immediate starting point. 3 hours ago, kapn655321 said: I'm going to regret saying this.. but Lavos's cooldowns for railjack is super busted. Going to need to adjust these to be longer, or the entire energy system for Railjack is a waste. I don't need to fire turrets at all unless there's a crewship, even in Veil Proxima. Using exclusively railjack battle abilities to waste enemies as fast as they can spawn. With a fully leveled Seeker Volley, turrets only serve to wear down crewships, or to pick off a ship in the rare event it has any health left. Not saying I mind, because I enjoyed soloing the entirety of the new content up through Veil Proxima... but I'm going to guess that wasn't a conscious choice, considering the energy consumption restrictions for Railjack otherwise. never feel bad about reporting unbalanced stuff tbh breaking the game is funny in the short term but it's better to make sure everything's interacting properly instead of having one cancerous aspect eclipse everything and take away things for the player to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kainosh Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 11 hours ago, kapn655321 said: I'm going to regret saying this.. but Lavos's cooldowns for railjack is super busted. I have not tried, but Hilldryn should also be pretty OP. She uses shields, and these regenerate real fast. Even if rebalanced, Lavos and Hilldryn will still be top (unless completely butchered) because they don't need any consumables, while other frames will need energy Pizza for almost every cast. IMO, DE must develop separate Cooldowns for RJ abilities. And these should never be affected by Frame stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapn655321 Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 8 hours ago, MrFrog9 said: better to make sure everything's interacting properly Agreed. Also aware the next option will be Dispenser + Synth Fiber + Equilibrium to get the same result.. not sure they can do much about that without breaking that combo entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapn655321 Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 Just now, Kainosh said: separate Cooldowns for RJ abilities Yup. That's my thought, too. One thing I'd add to this, is if a player could like.. Omni something to actively reduce cooldowns. This way you still have an expense to manage in the risk/reward system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starwake Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 would be cool if Lavos got duel snake whips when not using a melee for a alternate weapon like garuda. like whiplash :P could just mirror the animation of burning wasp. but overall i think he is a good frame with a few tweaks and adjustments to modding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caidezes Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 I've been thinking about two small changes that would make playing as Lavos less tedious. If you don't imbue an ability with an element, have it automatically imbued with its default element when cast. Also, using Vial Rush seems to revert the frame from running to walking. Letting you continue to run afterwards would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Hopper_Orouk Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, Caidezes said: I've been thinking about two small changes that would make playing as Lavos less tedious. If you don't imbue an ability with an element, have it automatically imbued with its default element when cast. Also, using Vial Rush seems to revert the frame from running to walking. Letting you continue to run afterwards would help. that's like every Lavos complain ever...i'm sure since many people ask for these two specific changes, DE will implement them somehow someday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caidezes Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 36 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said: that's like every Lavos complain ever...i'm sure since many people ask for these two specific changes, DE will implement them somehow someday. If they're common suggestions then I hope they get addressed. Those two changes wouldn't impact Lavos' mechanics. All they'd do is make him less clunky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waizard13 Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 Played Lavos since his day 1 and here is an attempt at constructive criticism: - Please make his 1 statstickable like khorra/atlas/gaara/excal, and maybe have the cd be on the healing part, lavos has no consistent damage dealing ability. Also, atlas, gaara and excal have dmg stats on their 1s, khorra has crit, make lavos have more status instead would be interesting. - Let his 2 be canceled any time, most of the times i just want to hit a group of enemies around pointblank and overshoot them 20m away. Also making him able to steel was a great feature, but allowing him to (Single) jump like on a k-drive would work wonders for lots of tile sets, let the double jump cancel the skill and single jump behave like an uncharged k-drive jump. And for the love of god, stop making his sprint toggle reset to walk after using 2. - His 3 being the only source of cd reduction is a terrible thing, maybe have each skill reduce the cd of others 0.5s per enemy hit with a cap and that cap increasing with skill efficiency mods. - Thank you for fixing his 4 vertical issue, that was a major improvement to the skill - His imbue element mechanic is wonderful, but really tiring on the fingers and bad for the keyboard to need to recast it after every skill, maybe have it as a toggle, hold 1/2/3/4 to imbue 1 element, then again to imbue the second (Or hold both at same time) and a third time to "clear" the imbuing, with skill usage not clearing it. Well, that's most of what I can think, aside from the suggestion on his 1 I think none of the others is a straight buff, just improvement to his game-play, and even that can be mitigated by the fact that none of his skills is spamable. I really enjoy using lavos and see many of the points i made being also raised by other players, so i hope you address them when possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfchild07 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 Please give us an option to turn off the 0.5 sec lock on double tap. I was double tapping on purpose! Also tired of reselecting the same element that I want selected for the whole mission. Also tired of turning auto-sprint back on after vial rush. I'll go back to using Nezha, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raskalnickoff Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 Another vote for the imbued elements remaining until I change them to something else. I know it is always great to have an imbued element, but sometimes I worry about RSI as I ignore what is happening on the screen and focus on which elements I want to re-apply to this attack. Another was to help this would be longer cool downs on all abilities, So we have to wait longer before being able to cast them. On the other hand I am enjoying how sturdy he is and that he tank take a lot of damage without me worrying too much about what is happening on screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)GearsMatrix301 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 9 minutes ago, Raskalnickoff said: Another was to help this would be longer cool downs on all abilities, So we have to wait longer before being able to cast them. The cooldowns are already an issue at their current length. Increasing them isn’t them isn’t going to help Lavos, and keeping imbuements is not a good enough justification for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 Since the changes that came with the latest update he is performing really well. There are still a few kinks that need solving, but the gripe I had with his CD's are gone thanks to the baseline buff to his #3. We no longer have range and efficiency competing with eachother as a stat, it is all OK to invest in reduced efficiency now while also stackin range to counter it. With Blind Rage the CD reduction is still acceptable now. So onto the kinks that needs solving. 1. The constant element re-application. It gets so very very tedius and really serves no purpose except for possibly a design shortcut regarding how to reset an unwanted applied element. Easy solution, if the same element is applied again you cancel the element, if a dual element is active, the next element applied overrides it. 2. Vial Rush stopping toggled sprint. I mean... come one! A movement ability that cancels sprint? I... uhm... what? I really wanna use the skill but cant bring myself to do so due to the interaction it has with sprint. Fix those two things and he'll be near perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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