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Operation: Orphix Venom - Lavos Feedback Megathread (Read First Post)


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A third possible way to make mixing better can include this:

  • Make every enemy hit by Lavos' abilities be marked by the element they are hit with. Being hit by a second ability with a different element triggers it to deal additional damage as the combined element.
  • Holding down the ability turns the ability to "mark" the enemy.
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Lavos: The Good & The Bad.

Good
- Lavos looks fantastic, so much so that I can't even bring myself to put attachments over his awesome little baubles.
- Lavos is dynamic and interesting.  It's nice to have a frame that can "adapt" to whatever threat is thrown at them and actually has engaging and mindful gameplay.
- Leech eximus are no longer the bane of my existence!  F@#% them.
- Lavos potentially can scale very well.

Bad
- Lavos' cooldowns are awkward.  Namely Catalyze's cooldown is FAR too long compared to not only the other cooldowns in his kit, the cooldown reduction received from Transmutation Probe (will talk more on that), but also the actual current value gotten from this ability for its required setup.
- Transmutation Probe offers extremely minimal returns as far as cooldown reduction.  I understand its meant to aim it for a "group" but the fact of the matter is that this frame has no inherent grouping mechanic, so unless we're meant to be entirely reliant on using other gear (which opens up the anti-build diversity can of worms) we're literally just hoping that RNG allows the enemies to group up enough to see an even noticeable dent in our cooldowns.
- Ability durations.  While Vial Rush leaves a rather long lasting trail, for some reason both Transmutation Probe and Catalyze are gone almost instantaneously, further reducing any kind of benefit that could be gained from them.  Transmutation Probe might not even be as bad as it currently is if the range were extended and it were made more of a stationary "checkpoint" similar to Xaku's abilities.
- Vial Rush suffers from the Tidal Surge/Zephyr problem.  We don't really want these abilities that are centered around launching our frame in a random direction when the main focus of the ability is meant to be some sort of CC or damage dealer.  Abilities like the previously mentioned more often than not just cause us to fling ourselves into some hole in the tileset or disorient ourselves entirely because we're launched way too far too fast and our target is now a mile away.
- Catalyze suffers from the V1 Gara problem.  Catalyze only really works if you're on an almost entirely flat tileset, otherwise the ability does absolutely nothing to enemies that are slightly above or below you, this is further compounded by the previously mentioned non-existent duration.
- Overall damage output/investment.  While Catalyze CAN do significant damage, it either requires an extra-infused cast of every single ability in his kit on each individual target, which is a nightmare for all the previously mentioned reasons, or it requires a "Conditon Overload" weapon to be paired with him at all times, which again opens up the anti-build diversity topic.

Proposed Fixes (Not necessarily all required together, but to address each problem individually)
- Increase Transmutation Probe's cooldown reduction ~3x.
- Increase duration of both Transmutation Probe & Catalyze SIGNIFICANTLY.
- Make Vial Rush "throw" vials forward for the full distance even if canceled early so that it can instead be quickly tapped twice to create the same line of effect or can still be tapped once and left alone to run the full duration to keep its mobility aspect.
- Make Catalyze an "orb" rather than a disc, or at the very least a wall that drops to the floor like Gara's Mass Vitrify (it is a drone emitting gas after all, unless it's lighter than air it stands to reason it would fall).
- Take the "damage doubled per element" aspect out of Catalyze specifically and instead add it into his passive so that all of his abilities become more effective the more he or his teammates spread elemental effects.  Could also potentially convert it so that instead of doubling per element it doubles per proc and lower the base damage to have a more gradual but overall higher scaling.

Edited by Ceadeus
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Lavos: The Good & The Bad.

Good
- Lavos looks fantastic, so much so that I can't even bring myself to put attachments over his awesome little baubles.
- Lavos is dynamic and interesting.  It's nice to have a frame that can "adapt" to whatever threat is thrown at them and actually has engaging and mindful gameplay.
- Leech eximus are no longer the bane of my existence!  F@#% them.
- Lavos potentially can scale very well.

Bad
- Lavos' cooldowns are awkward.  Namely Catalyze's cooldown is FAR too long compared to not only the other cooldowns in his kit, the cooldown reduction received from Transmutation Probe (will talk more on that), but also the actual current value gotten from this ability for its required setup.
- Transmutation Probe offers extremely minimal returns as far as cooldown reduction.  I understand its meant to aim it for a "group" but the fact of the matter is that this frame has no inherent grouping mechanic, so unless we're meant to be entirely reliant on using other gear (which opens up the anti-build diversity can of worms) we're literally just hoping that RNG allows the enemies to group up enough to see an even noticeable dent in our cooldowns.
- Ability durations.  While Vial Rush leaves a rather long lasting trail, for some reason both Transmutation Probe and Catalyze are gone almost instantaneously, further reducing any kind of benefit that could be gained from them.  Transmutation Probe might not even be as bad as it currently is if the range were extended and it were made more of a stationary "checkpoint" similar to Xaku's abilities.
- Vial Rush suffers from the Tidal Surge/Zephyr problem.  We don't really want these abilities that are centered around launching our frame in a random direction when the main focus of the ability is meant to be some sort of CC or damage dealer.  Abilities like the previously mentioned more often than not just cause us to fling ourselves into some hole in the tileset or disorient ourselves entirely because we're launched way too far too fast and our target is now a mile away.
- Catalyze suffers from the V1 Gara problem.  Catalyze only really works if you're on an almost entirely flat tileset, otherwise the ability does absolutely nothing to enemies that are slightly above or below you, this is further compounded by the previously mentioned non-existent duration.
- Overall damage output/investment.  While Catalyze CAN do significant damage, it either requires an extra-infused cast of every single ability in his kit on each individual target, which is a nightmare for all the previously mentioned reasons, or it requires a "Conditon Overload" weapon to be paired with him at all times, which again opens up the anti-build diversity topic.

Proposed Fixes (Not necessarily all required together, but to address each problem individually)
- Increase Transmutation Probe's cooldown reduction ~3x.
- Increase duration of both Transmutation Probe & Catalyze SIGNIFICANTLY.
- Make Vial Rush "throw" vials forward for the full distance even if canceled early so that it can instead be quickly tapped twice to create the same line of effect or can still be tapped once and left alone to run the full duration to keep its mobility aspect.
- Make Catalyze an "orb" rather than a disc, or at the very least a wall that drops to the floor like Gara's Mass Vitrify (it is a drone emitting gas after all, unless it's lighter than air it stands to reason it would fall).
- Take the "damage doubled per element" aspect out of Catalyze specifically and instead add it into his passive so that all of his abilities become more effective the more he or his teammates spread elemental effects.  Could also potentially convert it so that instead of doubling per element it doubles per proc and lower the overall damage to have a more gradual but overall higher scaling.

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I mostly think lavos is ok from my limited playtime with him. As others have said, the vertical range on his 4th ability is pretty crippling.

I have issues with the 2nd ability, vial rush. It seems like the range stat doesn't effect the radius of the vials themselves. I made a short clip where I tried to kill a crewman, but as you can see even when dashing right next to him, the vial range is so low that he has to basically walk into it to take damage. It also took several attempts to even get a vial to land near him, there were many gaps in the trails. The inconsistency makes this ability really lackluster at actually doing its job of spreading status.

This was with 175% ability range, so I would expect the vial radius to be a fair bit greater than what the visual cue suggests.

I hope that this gets some adjustment. I've not tried any really high-level content yet so I can't comment on the ability scaling, but I think it will be fine with the right setup.

Overall I actually quite like lavos, his theme, looks and ability to use whatever damage type is best for the situation is quite fun, I like having a frame that I can use nearly anywhere.

I especially love the tiny splooshy sounds when you move around. It's adorable.

Edit: I just found out about pressing the button again to make a radial burst of vials. The ability makes a little more sense now, but the range of the vials still feel very small.

Edited by Drischa
corrected range value from config
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I too dislike his cooldowns, not only because of their length but also because of how weak the Transmutation Probe is. Its range is limited, it gets stuck on geometry and it doesn't even scale with efficiency properly, since it has the same efficiency limit as other frames. Most missions don't even have high enough enemy density to work with it.

Catalyze cooldown is especially bad because his 1, 2 and 3 deal waaaaay too little damage and work better as status applicators, cc and utility. If Snake Slap ALSO had the condi overload modifier, it would certainly fill in the "no damage" windows that Lavos seems to suffer from, healing from it could be reduced to balance things out or could also be modified to work like Healing Return.

I also wonder why the hell they didn't give Vial Rush steering or better yet full control, the same way Wukongs cloud works. I hope that if they add it one day, they won't glue it to a #*!%ing augment.

It feels to me like Lavos is a very confusing frame for DE to balance.

  • He relies heavily on status duration and stacking, yet has cooldowns that are 10-30 seconds long.
  • His ability stat-scaling is all over the place and certain VERY IMPORTANT parts of his kit are unmodifiable.
  • Because his abilities work in what is basically a rotation you're required to have quick bursts of casting, yet cooldown lengths are so different between his skills that while Catalyze is recharging, you feel like you're wasting the opportunity to utilize the rest of his kit.
  • Elemental mixing also has you constantly making additional button presses and setting up optimal damage types, so it feels like you don't have the time to use your guns in between casting(its probably just me though, I bet that when I'll get used to it I won't pay much attention to it).
  • Catalyze is the only real source of damage and Snake Slap feels extremely underwhelming because it doesn't benefit from status stacking.

Still, I like the frame. Hopefully DE don't treat him the same way they treated Hildryn(basically ignoring her because she wasn't completely terrible and only making some minor adjustments) and actually make a few balance passes on him after HOPEFULLY considering player feedback.

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I wish I could get elements by pressing the 2 elements I want within a short time instead of holding them like a fighting game. A few examples would be:

* Gas on my 2? I would press 142 or 412

* Blast on my 3? 243 or 423

It would add a combo-like feel to his kit and speed it up dramatically. Holding should still be usable but this would make him a lot easier to play on controller.

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18 minutes ago, Shatter_The_Sun said:

I wish I could get elements by pressing the 2 elements I want within a short time instead of holding them like a fighting game. A few examples would be:

* Gas on my 2? I would press 142 or 412

* Blast on my 3? 243 or 423

It would add a combo-like feel to his kit and speed it up dramatically. Holding should still be usable but this would make him a lot easier to play on controller.

Swap hold/tap in options.

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10 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Swap hold/tap in options.

So I tried that and while it solves 1/2 of the problem. It still feels clunky to use. If we could way we could deepen the control of it by adding a delay timer we could customize within the menu for when to release the button to when the next button input can be detected, that would be great.

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It states that if any ability is held he adds the corresponding element.


Which is not true, as when you infuse a helminth ability - the option becomes inactive
Therefore the only true statement about "holding" is the one located on the abilities themselves and not the passive.

I understand why, so to not interfere, as some abilities can be held by default or with augments

However it strips away the depth of helminth customization of this frame almost entirely, as Lavos looses access to one of the 4 elements.

At first I was excited to test fun stuff, such as Ash Shuriken with a Viral cast and some other combinations. Now I just feel like I wasted money and time.
I'm fine with him being unable to infuse a helminth ability with an element. It's loosing the element entirely that is the issue.

On a final note.
As a frame who's concept is all about science, alchemy, experimentation and knowledge... Lavos has a surprisingly narrow build variety. Which isn't helped by the fact that using the helminth system cripples him more than not.

 

Edited by Zedzee_true
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Every time when cast an ability and the selected element will be used, hence we must select again and again every time we cast his abilities.

Proposal: Make the selected element stays, but only change if we decided to use another element instead. This way, we don't have to keep selecting the same element each time we want to cast an ability. Also, since the element will stay, pressing the same button(s) again will deactivate it, defaulting the abilities to non-element state.

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51 minutes ago, Zedzee_true said:

At first I was excited to test fun stuff, such as Ash Shuriken with a Viral cast and some other combinations.

Sooo... Can you have Viral Shuriken as long as you don't replace the Cold or Toxin granting abilities?

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il y a 31 minutes, kyori a dit :

Every time when cast an ability and the selected element will be used, hence we must select again and again every time we cast his abilities.

Proposal: Make the selected element stays, but only change if we decided to use another element instead. This way, we don't have to keep selecting the same element each time we want to cast an ability. Also, since the element will stay, pressing the same button(s) again will deactivate it, defaulting the abilities to non-element state.

Best idea ever, it feels very clunky to select again and again the same combinaison, I can't even be focus on my aim/guns because of CDs and imbuing.

Edited by Giants
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OPHIDIAN BITE
Hard to hit anything on a different elevation than us.

Expected change: Being able to aim it or making aoe taller to hit bellow and above you should work.

VIAL RUSH
It's not really forgiving when it comes to colission.

Expected change: Being able to steer to the side and sliding on small map pieces instead of stopping. 

TRANSMUTATION PROBE
Cooldown is way too high to be consistently used as support power and refresh other powers.

Expected change: Cooldown lowering applies to itself too and lowers per tick on enemy (reduction amount might get lowered when on tick).

CATALYZE

Cooldown is too high and suffers from the same issue with aoe as Bite.

Expected change: Cooldown lowered to 20s and aoe getting taller.

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Really not sure where to start since he seems like a mess all over.

His #3 needs to be able to effect the CD of skills that still have duration left, like Helminth abilities such as Elemental Ward, Roar and so on. The same goes for his #4, the reduction from his #3 needs to apply while #4 is still "active". Currently he just feels extremely clunky because you need to wait and with the silly low range and duration on his #3 it gets very annoying. Allowing #3 to effect skills that are active would also help with his flow, since #3 would effect itself aswell so you could use it back-to-back. Meaning you'd feel less inclined to wait incase you cant get full use out of it. This is afterall a very fast paced game, but Lavos is not fast paced in any way.

His #2 needs to stop interrupting sprint. Currently it is a no-go skill for me since it toggles off sprint whenever it is used. So I just placed a helminth skill in its place for now.

All Helminth options need to be looked over. All of the ones that have more than a single function does not work properly on Lavos. You can for instance not cancel Blood Altar manually. Thermal Sunder should likely get looked at aswell, so you can cast both portions of the skill before hitting the cooldown.

Ability Duration really needs to effect his #3 so it can be in play longer. No idea why it isnt designed to be effected in the first place. Base radius of #3 needs to be increased significantly aswell. Currently the only real worry is to stay at 100% duration so you dont screw over your status duration on your whole loadout. That whole interaction could also be removed if suddenly dura applies to one skill in the kit. I mean, look at Grendel, he only has one skill actually effected by dura and he has no snowflake penalty tied to the stat.

The toggle should also be changed. Holding 1 applies element 1 (Toxin) to all future ability casts, holding element 2 (cold) while 1 is active combines 1+2 (viral) for all future ability casts. Holding 1 or 2 again will go back to a single element (toxin if 1 is held, cold is 2 is held). Holding 3 or 4 while 1+2 is already active will replace 1+2 (viral) with 3 (electric) or 4 (heat) for all future casts. Holding the button for a single element already in use will clear the element UI completely. So if Heat is the chosen element and you hold down #4 again you will have no element active. This would go a long long way to make his gameplay smoother. There is no reason to have it as it is now because the skills already abide to CD's, so picking elements is just a clunky mechanic. No real harm in having them as a permanent toggle that you can replace on the fly manually.

Efficiency should also probably be changed regarding how it interacts. It should be seperated from his #3 and be a simple cooldown reduction equal to the % of efficiency. This would help him so very much in group play where getting his #3 to land and do anything useful can be extremely hard with all AoE options the game has. edit: Or if you want to keep the efficiency synergy with his #3, let the stat reduce the base CD of his #3 aswell. It currently has a 10 sec CD, with maxed efficiency it would have 2.5 seconds CD. That would mean that you could skip letting the skill scale with ability duration aswell, since it would have a sensible recastable cooldown with maxed efficiency. This would also mean that it wouldnt need to reduce it's own CD based on targets hit either in order to feel smooth. There, several different options to make his #3 far smoother and more fitting in his kit.

Hitreg for 1 aswell as 4 needs alot of work.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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2 hours ago, (PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

You are aware most passives refer to the frames original abilities, DE has stated that subsumed abilities were not designed with individual warframe passives in mind. Should a subsumed ability is tied to one it will be modified to fit other warframes.

The imbue mechanic is not part of his passive. His passive is status immunity.

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yeah it's weird how the imbue mechanic is tied to the original ability when it could just not be, it completely contradicts the subsume system for lavos.

but the thing is, does subsuming vial rush on other frames give them the ability to imbue cold damage on their abilities? if not then what's the point of keeping the imbue mechanic tied to lavos' specific abilities?

his ult gaining double damage for each status effect on an enemy is pretty neat for an elemental frame, but it seems wasted that his other abilities don't have that mechanic aswell.

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DE. No one will use Blast, Magnetic, and Gas combinations. Now is a good time to take a look at these 3 elements again.

As others above have mentioned, let the element stays after cast. Pressing the element again will swap it to a new one.

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I like Lavos quite a lot and think his cooldown setup is very fun and neat. That being said because the only way to reduce Lavos' cooldowns is with his 3 (by 1 sec base per enemy hit) he can feel clunky at times while you're waiting for his bigger cooldowns to finish. 

The main issue with this is that his 3 only moves in a straight line for a few seconds, often gets stuck in place on walls/ boxes/ etc., only reduces cooldowns if it hits someone (which can be hard to do in a full squad with people killing enemies as fast as they spawn), and cannot reduce its own cooldown in any way. These issues often lead to casts of Lavos's 3 not amounting to much for one reason or another. I think a small change to this ability could increase the fluidity in Lavos' playstyle without increasing cooldown reduction to the point where you're just spamming abilities.

 

Triggering Lavos's passive with a Universal Orb reduces cooldowns by .5 sec (maybe 1 sec?)

The cooldown reduction of this effect is not affected by efficiency 

  • Provides a way to reduce cooldowns without using a cooldown, at least after the initial cast of 3.
  • Provides greater flow with minor but more consistent cooldown reduction
  • Spaces out cooldown reduction since passive can only be triggered once roughly every 5 seconds
  • keeps cooldown reduction tied to Transmutation Probe via Universal Orbs
  • provides a way to reduce cooldown of Transmutation Probe

I think that .5 seconds should be enough as it also reduces the cooldown of Transmutation Probe which will allow you to cast it more, further increasing cooldown reduction capabilities. But because of  the fact that with vacuum it is hard to trigger Lavos's passive with Universal Orb specifically (as opposed to energy orbs) and it can only be triggered once every 5ish seconds perhaps a 1 sec reduction would work better? Perhaps allowing the probe to bounce off of walls would be helpful too, and kinda matches the glaive bounce of Lavos's signature weapon.

 

His one also feels a bit weak with very short range for its 8 second cooldown and could use a buff/ cooldown reduction.

 

 

 

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48 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

DE. No one will use Blast, Magnetic, and Gas combinations. Now is a good time to take a look at these 3 elements again.

As others above have mentioned, let the element stays after cast. Pressing the element again will swap it to a new one.

This is absolutely incorrect.

Considering you have easy access to all of the combinations it makes perfect sense to use blast, magnetic AND gas in specific situations. That's the whole point.

When you understand which elements do the most damage against specific enemies you can easily find reason to use blast, magnetic and gas...

 

Magnetic is great against corpus

Gas is great against infested

Blast is a good choice to layer on elemental procs that likely are not being applied from other sources and also is generally good for CC. 

People typically don't go with gas, magnetic and blast because they prefer corrosive/viral, but since your weapons likely already use these elements it is very useful to swap into the others from time to time.

Remember, Catalyst is spike damage based on status procs. You want to layer as much status as possible then pop catalyst. Using the element with the highest damage modifier will result in the highest spike damage...

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Experimented with Lavos in a variety of game modes, here is my feedback:

First I liked both his design and his skillset overall. He is one of the most unique and fun frames to play as, and furthermore I fully understand his unique cooldown mechanic will be a bit divisive amongst players. That being said here is what I have to say of his kit after testing him in most relevant game modes.

0 Passive
- Valence block is a very good passive, no complains on my part of it, but his mixing system I believe should be maintained even when one of his abilities is subsumed, If the ability has a hold cast function like hydroids just make so that the elemental infusion only works for the ability during cooldown time. Like you subsume hydroids into lavos 2, hold 2 to cast it on a bigger area, and while on cooldown holding 2 will ad the cold element to the mixer. Even if the subsumed ability has no use of the infusion, losing an element will severely cripple Lavos playstyle.

1 Ophidian Bite
The hp recover is a nice utility for surviving, but the range and overall aim is a bit off.
- My first  suggestion would be to increase this ability range making it more like khorras whipclaw in terms of hitbox, or add some ranged effect like a toxin wave cone.
- The biggest missed oportunity to this skill is that it should be stat-stickable, IE, have its dmg properties change from the melee weapon mods, like atlas, gaara, khorra and excalibur, this would solve the lack of damage and encourage lots of build experimentation. I also think there should be a separate cooldown for the health drain (That would stay around the 8 seconds) in order to decrease the base cooldown (To be like 2 seconds) of the skill so players can have at least one reliable skill to use quickly since I found myself lots of times waiting for any skill to become available to use, but at the same time not have a spam to recover hp button.
- And lastly make the usage of this skill in mid air not slam Lavos on the ground, none of his abilities is very good against flying enemies for this reason.

2 Vial rush
I found very little problems with this ability, it is both a great mobility tool and a way to imbue elemental status effects on enemies, I would only suggest 3 adjustments:
- Have the ability to steer and change direction even if only slightly like when using a necramech dash, in order to avoid minor obstacles.
- Have the ability to jump in the form of a short hop, like an uncharged k-drive jump, also to help obstacle avoiding and improve mobility.
- Decrease the fall time when the skill is used on air, both to improve its effectivenes against airborne enemies and also to add a great air dashing mechanic to lavos.

3 Transmutation probe
Well, this skill i think require lots of tuning, but not in the skill itself and more on the cooldown mechanic as a whole, my suggestions would be
- Remove the cooldown reduction per shocked enemy feature from this skill ans instead have either the overall cooldown timers be afected by efficiency mods and/or casting speed mods OR have a cooldown reduction mechanic that spans all his abilities like for example: hitting any enemy with a skill from lavos reduce the active cooldowns from other skills by 0.5 seconds capping at 3 per cast or just have the usage of a skill reduce 1 seconds from the active cooldown of other skills on cast, so players are incentivized to vary their skill casting with their own choices and flexibility instead of being forced to go for the most efficient order of 1>2>4>3 repeat to maximize efficiency which gets old very fast and feels like a world of warcraft or any moba character.

4 Catalyze
- Add some vertical hitbox to this skill, again airborne enemies can fly right by it and not even take damage.
- Both the cooldown and casting time are far to long
- Have the probes go and return like with hyldrins pillage, or have them stop on recast and circle around the radius for a set duration, this would mitigate the long cooldown disadvantage a bit as well as adding some utility for defense and excavation missions.

Well, honestly I had a lot of fun with lavos, but at the end of the day the hard truth is that his DPS is overall very low and his cooldown mechanic needs serious tuning. Hope my suggestions as well as those of other players can lead to an improvement to this frame beyond the possibility of becoming simple mastery fodder.

Edited by Waizard13
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Passive:
queue up elements in order for example electric > cold  > toxin  would result in viral instead of staying at magnetic
__________________________________________________________________________
Orphidian Bite:
each enemy hit reduces ability cooldowns by 1s, including its own
increase by .25s for each unique status effect on each enemy
in my opinion it makes far more sense for this ability to be the source of the cooldown reduction

possibly reduce base cooldown of the ability to 4s, the goal is for it to reset itself if hitting groups and proc loaded enemies
would also be nice if it could be cast on the move
___________________________________________________________________________
Vial Rush:
allow the ability to control direction of dash, same as the handling of revenants reave

___________________________________________________________________________
Transmutation Probe:
arguably increase cooldown to 15s *most likely unnecessary*
remove cooldown reduction effect

this ability is already powerful enough as a status long range status applicator for amplifying his 4,
as well as the utility that it provides a squad for uniammo/orbs
that and the cooldown reducing effect makes much more sense on orphidian bite

__________________________________________________________________________

Catalyze:  Bugged?
the probes are seemingly intended to track nearby enemies, but currently doesn't correctly track them
this has the rather severe issue of making the ability completely unable to damage enemies higher or lower than its cast location

if it wasn't intended to track enemies then it should for the above reason

i do think he is a stellar overall release, just with a handful of questionable decisions, possible bugs and QoL patches needed
 

Edited by crashapple12
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