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Operation: Orphix Venom - Lavos Feedback Megathread (Read First Post)


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First let me just say that I think Lavos is great. I love him. His art is great, his abilities are pretty fun. His elemental mixing is interesting. He has a nice health/armor baseline that makes him not an annoying health management chore to play, he's fun. Everyone involved in making him should pat themselves on the back.

 

I think he has a few areas where he could use some overall QoL or help to further expand upon his theme so I'll go through those first and then include my suggestions at the bottom.

Issue #1, Lavos is the master of elemental status, but he doesn't have enough ways to stack and spread status out. His abilities are good when they are available, but he's just not putting out enough status effects or stacking them high enough with those abilities.

Issue #2, Lavos has REAL problems with verticality in his kit. His 1 and 3 are fine, but his 2 and 4 really suffer in multi-layer rooms. His 4 is especially bad and even small elevation problems can cause it to miss.

Issue #3 Somewhat less pressing than the other two, but Lavos's elemental mixing is somewhat disruptive to the flow of gameplay. Often times I'll be mixing elements, casting abilities, and then realize I haven't had a free moment to shoot my gun in the past 25 seconds.

 

So those are my top issues, below are some suggestions which I think would help elevate them, as well as some commentary on the reasoning behind them. They aren't all or nothing changes, I think he'd be in great shape with all of them, but several of them would help address the same issue and might be left out for balance sake.

 

Ability CDs: Add a grenade vial to all of his abilities that can be thrown when tapping the key and the primary ability effect is on cooldown. it explodes and leaves a puddle on the ground that afflicts status, similar to the vials he throws out during his 2, just targeted and and a single one per cast. Vial uses the base element of the ability on cooldown (So Ophidian Bite being on cooldown would throw out a toxic vial when tapped, etc.) and adds in his elemental mix, just like normal. This change would give you something to do while abilities are cooldown and help spread status around the room more.

 

Verticality: His 1 and 3 are fine as is I think. I'd like to see his Vial Rush puddles waft up higher into the air to effect airborne enemies more often. Similarly I'd like to see his Catalyze probes leave a trail behind them that floats into the air, and also "cropdust" down onto the ground below them.

 

Mixing micromanagement: Make his elemental mixes last indefinitely. Adding a new element replaces the oldest element in your mixture, adding the same element twice gives you your base element. Maaybe make his 4 consume your mixture in case you want to drop your elements for some reason? This would free up a lot more time to be thinking about shooting and ability positioning, without losing any of the flexibility his mixing provides.

 

Passive additions: I think there's a few additions that could be made to his passive that could help his overall theme as status lord.

Option #1, Make status effects afflict by Lavos reapplied themselves every 3-5ish seconds. This would basically mean status effects Lavos applies never drop off, which would be a considerable buff to his endgame scaling, status spreading and Catalyze damage.

Option #2, Make Lavos apply TWO status effects every time he would apply one. This would help him output more status effects at once and increase the lower amount of status effect stacking his ability cooldowns limit him to.

Option #3 (Maybe an augment?) Make his elemental mixture add on to his weapon shots as well.

 

Catalyze: Possibly consider changing this to gain bonus damage based on number of status effects applied, instead of number of unique elements active. Just for better overall scaling.

 

That's all my feedback. I'd like to restate how much fun I'm having with Lavos and how much I enjoy his art. He's probably up there with Gauss in terms of enjoyment for me. Great job dev team. :D

Edited by AutoCept
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Ophidian Bite locks into the direction that Lavos himself was facing when the ability button is pressed, rather than toward the aiming reticle/player camera, which makes it clunky to use.

Vial Rush seems to get locked out from tap-cast when something happens (getting knocked down or Transference?) I could still imbue Cold though.

Transmutation Drone's duration goes down with ranks from 6 seconds at rank 0 to 3 seconds at max rank. This seems unintended.

Catalyze most definitely needs to at least spray enemies below them.

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His passive is neat but I feel like it should also take the element combination and add like 5% to weapon damage just to make it a bit more interesting.

His first ability needs to lash out at all targets around him I think within its range to make it more useful.

The dash while useful needs to have either the vials being tossed out as he dashes or instead of a dash just toss all the vials out around him.

not liking how the 3rd ability just gets tossed out and then to stop it has to be cast again, I think this ability should follow Lavos around while its active.

His fourth ability is fine but i think its needs to hit in more than just a horizontal plane of travel, needs just a bit more up and down on it.

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17 hours ago, cococciolo said:

yeah it's weird how the imbue mechanic is tied to the original ability when it could just not be, it completely contradicts the subsume system for lavos.

but the thing is, does subsuming vial rush on other frames give them the ability to imbue cold damage on their abilities? if not then what's the point of keeping the imbue mechanic tied to lavos' specific abilities?

I've tried vial rush subsumed and it seems that it does 0 damage and doesn't proc cold. I tried on level 1 butchers and it does nothing. It retains the cooldown mechanic and doesn't use frame energy.

I really hate how we can't steer with Vial Dash. Most tilesets do not have enough space to complete a dash without hitting a wall, especially with max range. I'd like to be able to make the most of an ability that has a cooldown like this.

Revenant reave, Wukong Cloudwalker, and Gauss mach rush all can steer and provide better mobility without timers.

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5 hours ago, Leqesai said:

This is absolutely incorrect.

Considering you have easy access to all of the combinations it makes perfect sense to use blast, magnetic AND gas in specific situations. That's the whole point.

When you understand which elements do the most damage against specific enemies you can easily find reason to use blast, magnetic and gas...

I can just bring a rainbow loadout and do exactly that to amplify the damage. But you still can't deny the fact the status effects are terrible compared to other options. 

Anyways. My gripes with Lavos.

  1. The first ability cannot attack enemies on slopes or enemies above you very well. You can't aim up with it. 
  2. Vial Dash cannot do turns, which is hard to make full use of it in certain tilesets. Revenant's Reave suffered from this before but the change make the ability so much better.
  3. The lantern is too situational and is not team friendly. You need a group of enemies to use this effectively, which is hard considering public is filled with braindead nukes. 
  4. Catalyst spreads too slowly and non existant vertical range. By the time my catalyst reach it's first target some nuker from the next room already got them.
Edited by DrivaMain
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My only problems are :


Range of Ophidian Bite are too short and hope there is like small AOE burst from the lash. and the current one keep missing hit the enemies sometimes.

and please make Duration & Efficiency mods affect the Cooldown, 30 Seconds are too long for high end Missions, not mention the Transmutation Probe only work if we hit a large group of enemies, which can be hard if random missions are paired up with AOE Burst Nuker Saryn, Mirage or Ember.

and can we have multiple pre-cast elements? like we can pre cast a lot of different  elements (that will be stored via small icons on the Element button, capped to x20) and will use it randomly. rather that keep tapping the element buttons like playing piano.

Edited by Blood_Poppy
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I quite like Lavos, but he is a bit awkward to use. And as people have noted, too slow to do anything if you have another high damage frame in your squad, at least in ESO and normal starchart missions. I did do pretty well solo in Steel Path, he seems well suited for that. 

Aside for the issues that have already been mentioned, I have a minor suggestion: make Natural Talent increase the speed at which the Transmutation probe and Catalyst travel. There aren't many ways in which we can affect Lavos' abilities so it feels like it doesn't really matter which mods we use. Give us a reason to use them!

I expected that either efficiency or duration would affect his cooldowns, at least by a little bit. I get that it's to prevent spamming, but since there are penty of other frames that can just spam their nuking abilities, Lavos usually gets to do nothing.

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I was amazed by the lavos warframe, but the skill CD limited his excellence. 
I have the following three options. 
Efficiency has a direct impact on skills. The higher the CD,efficiency, the less CD. 
Or. 
Lavos kills enemies with status effects can reduce CD, by 0.5s per status effects (skill kill),weapon kill by 0.25s. 
Or. 
Lavos picks up an energy that can be reduced by 1s CD, Universal Orbs by 2s CD.:smile:

In addition, lavos can release TRANSMUTATION PROBE again to specify the location of TRANSMUTATION PROBE

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So I have been enjoying Lavos quite a bit but there are problems with his kit that should be addresed, here are my suggestions:

Passive: Is mostly fine as is, the knockdown immunity is much appreciated however I feel that it is a little bit too inconsistent because of the chances of an orb dropping (remember that Atlas can have free knockdown immunity consistently). Additionally allow Lavos to reduce all ability cooldowns by 0.5 when picking up a Health Orb or Universal Orb (this last one will trigger both the status immunity and cooldown reduction) I will refer to this further in transmutation probe.

Ophidian Bite: This ability has a very nice healing effect however i feel like something else is missing to justify the relatively long cooldown. Additionally the hitbox is very janky and sometimes doesn't hit enemies that are right next to you or even in front of you sometimes, I suspect it has to do with wonky line of sight checking. Aditionally the damage falls quite significantly at higher levels, however the heal is always very effective no matter the damage which is quite nice. As such I feel like a scaling mechanic to this ability wouldn't hurt and make the cooldown justified. I suggest that the damage scales with the number of enemies you catch in the AoE and perhaps even decrease the cooldown per enemy hit by a small amount (maybe 0.5 per).

Vial Rush: Extremely good mobility and effective at proc'ing elements however this only really works on the AoE component on the end of the rush, in the middle of it, the vials leave large gaps in which enemies are not affected. Let us increase the size of the individual AoEs of the vials with Ability Range. Additionally let the damage of the vials and AoE scale a little bit with the number of elemental procs just like the 4.

Transmutation Probe: This ability is one of the best for spreading large amounts of status however this can be a curse since one would use this before casting Catalyze which means they don't get the cooldown reduction. Allow the probe to reduce its own cooldown with shocked enemies but less than other abilities (maybe 0.5 per) Additionally the probe should have a small chance to transmute an ammo pickup into a normal health or energy orb (which would synergize well with passive). Pre-existing orbs will be converted to universal orbs as usual. Another change I suggest is to make the probe quickly atract enemies to itself when it is rendered stationary, this will make it synergize well with the Ophidian Bite changes by grouping enemies. I would also like a small bump up in probe's range (8m perhaps)

Catalyze: There is a massive glaring problem with this ability, the hitbox. The drones barely have any vertical influence and can easily miss enemies that are slightly above or below them. Aditionally the gel should actually behave like one, it should fall to the ground and deposit on the floor for a DoT AoE. Otherwise deals solid damage.

Overall I think Lavos is a solid frame but his kit is missing a little bit of "oomph" to it that I think these changes would help with.

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I posted this in PC bugs as well but just so other people can see this:

 

Putting Vial Rush on another Warframe via Helminth infusion makes the ability do ticks of 0 damage only, regardless of enemy level or armor. It literally does not do any damage to a level 1 infested charger.

I tested this both in the simulacrum and regular missions, and tested putting the ability on both Mag and Gara.

If anyone else can confirm, please post here.

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9 hours ago, Leqesai said:

This is absolutely incorrect.

Considering you have easy access to all of the combinations it makes perfect sense to use blast, magnetic AND gas in specific situations. That's the whole point.

But it just isnt the case since it is 1 single hit from either of them when Lavos is "imbued". It is just more profitable and far smoother to just prep him up with heat in all scenarios, heck, not even corrosive and viral are worthwhile the hazzle to imbue him with. Those elements will just bring nothing to the table when they arent allowed to stack and blast is just horrible overall.

They should have gone all out with his alchemy thing and made the elemental toggle a permanent while also effecting your weapon, this way he'd be more of a weapon platform with CD skills, one that could combine weapon elements far better than others and do so based on the enemy type in the mission. 

Edited by SneakyErvin
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Lavos is both extremely boring and tedious at the same time. I dislike having to imbue elements for every single ability cast separately, when I'm only using like 1 or 2 out of all the options. The ability cooldowns are what ultimately make him the most boring warframe in the game thus far.

His abilities also lack any and all vertical AoE. It's almost like he was designed completely for simulacrum, because he cannot hit anything in real maps with even slight verticality in them. Lack of vertical AoE affects both his 1 and 4. Line of sight requirement for his 1 also cripples the ability even further in tight maps.

Edited by Wyrmius_Prime
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Time for some feedback:

My Lavos is twice Forma-ed speccing into STR, RNG, DUR and negative EFF with Natural Talent.

Off the bat with his base stats Lavos can take hits for a good while. I might opt for Adaptation and Armor mods/Arcanes in Steel Path, depending on how often I need to heal with my mobile playstyle.

Passive

Valence Block is pretty awesome, as long as orbs are around I don't have to worry about procs. Imbue as others have said, could use a separate option for tap/hold inversion in the settings for Lavos specifically (go figure if you put in the extra work to make it specific to each Warframe). Holding down the hotkeys during combat means I'm often forced to pause my movement/parkour to reap that benefit.

Ophidian Bite

It feels like this ability has quite a few too many restrictions for a cone of damage and status procs. It needs line-of-sight, it has a short base range, it doesn't land where my camera is facing but instead locks into Lavos' direction he's facing. Damage-wise it depends heavily on the type of status I'm using, but it does tend to fall off quickly in higher levels. The 8 second cooldown is manageable, but a bit punishing when it's easy to miss with the cone, since it needs LoS and doesn't hit enemies that are standing a few meters higher or lower than Lavos.

Suggested changes:

  • Remove LOS requirement, since the visuals also push an energy force forward that can pass through walls.
  • Allow the bite to more consistently hit enemies on different elevations.
  • Damage scaling of some sort not dependent on status proc damage/DoTs.

Vial Rush

One of my favorite abilities across all frames. It has nice distance, quirky AoE damage and status procs for days, and it's on a short cooldown! Shame that it isn't steerable like Revenant's Reave, because I would love to carve out a curve of broken vials for more creative area denial options. Double-tapping to explode and bunch up a circle of vials is my go-to defensive panic button. The elemental appearances are hands down the most awesome flavor for this ability, good job art team.

Suggested changes:

  • Steering while rushing ala Reave in the name of fun and functionality.
  • Optionally allow Ability Range to influence the vial residue size, since some vials tend to splat horizontally or vertically on objects that don't seem to hit enemies walking pass them.

Transmutation Probe

Although it looks like floats, it's basically a solid object that has collision and slides across the floor before it crashes into whatever is in the way and can't move anymore. While I get that this is likely because most pickups tend to sit on the ground and you want the field to touch them, it makes casting this ability feel very clunky. Also, as mentioned before, the probe lasts 6 seconds at rank 0 but lasts 3 seconds when Lavos is maxed, which seems backwards to me and probably unintended... next to no point pressing the button again to stop the probe where it's at when it's going to expire in another second. Being the only way to reduce cooldowns is its niche, though it would help if Lavos can influence cooldowns some other way.

Suggested changes:

  • Allow Universal Orbs to shave 0.25 seconds from all active cooldowns, including this ability.
  • Allow the probe to phase through objects and walls but still slide across the ground.
  • Fix the probe duration to last 6 or more seconds at max rank.

Catalyze

Supposedly the strongest contender for damage in Lavos' kit, but overly restricted by a lengthy cooldown and no verticality on the probes' hitboxes. I really the enjoy the visuals on this power, but that's about it if it stays unchanged.

Suggested changes:

  • Reduce cooldown from 30 seconds to 15 seconds.
  • Gel sprays from Catalyst Probes will create a wall of falling gas below that reaches down to 10 meters. Enemies are coated by gel when passing through.
  • Catalyze's damage will account for the Heat and Imbued status effects it applies to enemies to calculate the final damage increase.
  • Optionally, allow us to press the ability button again to pause the probes where they are to create a short-lived defensive wall.

All in all, Lavos feels fresh and unique to play, with micromanaging giving a good boost to his performance and the adaptability to face most challenges. A welcomed Warframe to the roster I say!

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Probably gonna write more elaborate feedback later, but for now:
Seems biggest issue with the warframe in general is vertical placing as others pointed out (and some abilities having too long cooldowns)
When it comes to Ophidian Bite I think it'd be nice if it healed squadmates (and other normally healable objectives) too, it'd give the warframe more versatility and make him more desirable to have on the team and in more variety of missions. Maybeee I'd also consider adding some short healing over time to it. Oh and level scaling, kinda a must have for direct damage abilities in general.

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In a fast paced shooter like this you'd expect everything to be FAST. Lavos forces you to WAIT for every ability cast. You could reply with "just use his 3 to help with the cooldowns." and while i do think it works (even though sometimes i dont see a cooldown reduction at all even when hitting multiple enemies), the problem comes when you play with teammates. It happened again. We have a frame that NEEDS enemies to reduce his cooldowns but hey, that that Saryn just nuked the whole map. Oh well, let's try another time. Ops! That nova just killed everything on sight before i could even cast my third ability because i have to WAIT FOR THE COOLDOWN! And no, i won't take the "just play solo then" as an excuse. The frame is very cool, don't misunderstand me. He just doesn't really fit in this game.

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I use the opposite hold-tap setup, and i would really appreciate if Lavos could apply the type of damage chosen just like saryn.

 

I would prefer it to be by default, not with an augment, and if it feels too OP give a cooldown to the desired damage chosen.

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1) Too much time for finish the cooldown of Catalyze !!!!!!!!!!!

    1,05 sec(i have 105% efficiency) per enemy electrocuted with Trasmutation Probe, do not solve the problem.
    I subsumed in him Ensnare of Khora for aggroing enemies and cast Trasmutation Probe on them,

   i have on my build all 3 RANGE mods, but however i can reach max 7/8 secs of cooldown bonus(6/7 enemies max electrocuted at the same time),

   so i must  wait for 23 secs to recast Catalyze..too much...

2) Catalyze, for give damage to enemies, must been cast at the exact level of them, if i stay 1 meter under or upper of their torso(for example on a stair like on Hydron), i can not damage them at all...no good...

Edited by W4RF4M3
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I have been running him exclusively since he came out here are the few things I have noticed that stand out

- His snakes need to have a aiming function right now they shot in a horizontal line, I would like to see them maybe shot in the direction he is aiming up/down They could also use maybe another 2 meters of range

- His 2 seems a little broken based on the ability description it says either jump or click again to stop only jumping seems to work

- His 3 really needs to be looked at as its just off, it reminds me of how Nidus's 2 was before its recent change. it works ok in the steel path where the enemy density is greater but outside of that not as well. 

-His 4 also suffers from the same issue his 1 does as it only hit stuff on the same level as him nothing about or below him making it useless on many maps.

I would also like to see a general change to the cool downs where streamline/fleeting expertise effects all cool downs and then further effects how his 3 works as right now the way it works there is no reason to run them for the little effect they provide off rng.

All in all I am really liking him, a few tweaks and he will really shine

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I have been running him exclusively since he came out here are the few things I have noticed that stand out

- His snakes need to have a aiming function right now they shoot in a horizontal line, I would like to see them maybe shot in the direction he is aiming up/down They could also use maybe another 2 meters of range

- His 2 seems a little broken based on the ability description it says either jump or click again to stop only jumping seems to work

- His 3 really needs to be looked at as its just off, it works ok in the steel path where the enemy density is greater but outside of that not as well. 

-His 4 also suffers from the same issue his 1 does as it only hit stuff on the same level as him nothing about or below him making it useless on many maps.

I would also like to see a general change to the cool downs where streamline/fleeting expertise effects all cool downs and then further effects how his 3 works as right now the way it works there is no reason to run them for the little effect they provide off rng.

Also as other have said please let us mix a element and have it mixed until we change it, depending on what I am doing I do not want to keep re applying rad/mag/corrosive for my slides 

All in all I am really liking him, a few tweaks and he will really shine

Edited by minininja77
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think i figured out why Catalyze sometimes kills: its not working as advertised and is getting the bonus 100% dmg per status STACK afflicting enemies instead of per unique status type afflicting enemies

imo if no auto scaling is added this should be kept as is and description updated to reflect it

lavos still has the worst sustain in the game tho, im really for the idea from another poster about making Probe cost health instead of having a cooldown

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I really want to like Lavos but too much is going on that hurts him.

  • Ophidian Bite's cooldown is too long and does piddly damage, even with infused elements.
  • Vial Rush's movement is janky and range not affecting the AoE of the zones left by broken vials is not good. It feels like so much of the ability just misses or doesn't use all of its potential.
  • Transmutation Probe is decent but the cooldown is a bit much and the cooldown reduction not affecting itself does hamper the ability flow.
  • Catalyze has no verticality and doesn't proc status enough.

However, my personal biggest issue with Lavos is his interactions with Helminth or, more appropriately, the lack of any. If you give Lavos an ability, it locks his passive based on what you override, and even then you can't infuse an Infused ability with elemental damage. Xaku's Helminth balance decision was understandable because it froze ability durations, but Lavos should not have this kind of a restriction. He is an alchemist, after all, and we can change his abilities with Helminth in a similar manner, so why not let the two go well together?

 

My suggestions to improve Lavos besides letting him use Helminth w/o any restrictions:

  • Have Ophidian Bite scale and reduce the cooldown slightly.
  • When Vial Rush is canceled, have all unused vials be released all at once around Lavos.
  • Allow Transmutation Probe to lower its own cooldown (don't increase its cooldown to compensate) or increase the base amount of cooldown reduction from 1 second to 2 seconds or even 3 seconds. Also let it work on ALL abilities, not just native ones. Again, don't bring Xaku balance into Lavos.
  • To take a note from Brozime's video on this, give Catalyze verticality by letting it hit things below the drone and slightly above it, let it proc multiple times while it passes through and let it leave a large pool of the gel to continue proccing status and dealing damage.
  • Optional, but give Lavos increase Status Chance with mods, just like how he gets improved Status Duration with Duration mods. Picking up Energy/Univorbs could also lower cooldowns.
Edited by ColdCremator
had to specify Catalyze hitting above/below the drone
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7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But it just isnt the case since it is 1 single hit from either of them when Lavos is "imbued". It is just more profitable and far smoother to just prep him up with heat in all scenarios, heck, not even corrosive and viral are worthwhile the hazzle to imbue him with. Those elements will just bring nothing to the table when they arent allowed to stack and blast is just horrible overall.

They should have gone all out with his alchemy thing and made the elemental toggle a permanent while also effecting your weapon, this way he'd be more of a weapon platform with CD skills, one that could combine weapon elements far better than others and do so based on the enemy type in the mission. 

It is very easy to imbue elements with hold/tap swapped in options.

Playing lavos without hold/tap inverted makes combining elements on the fly twice as cumbersome.

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Catalyze

Need a heavy fix : Catalyze can hit enemies above the prod but not below.  In vertical tilset you need to be always in the bottom of the room if you want to hit enemies. I don't have look the range it can hit above the prod, but the range below is near 0.

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