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Operation: Orphix Venom - Lavos Feedback Megathread (Read First Post)


SilverBones

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On 2020-12-19 at 9:48 PM, Leqesai said:

This is absolutely incorrect.

absolutely is not incorrect, atleast half anyways. corrosive usually has better multipliers than blast and better status effect, toxin is practically always better than magnetic and has a better status effect, and infested are so weak that gas barely even matters to the point that you might aswell use viral and electric instead. the clear exception being deimos infested and even then corrosive and heat are better.

blast, magnetic, and gas are practically only good for setting up condition overload and catalyze. 

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With the new uptdate the 4 (Catalyze) has a good vertical hitbox but the horizontal hitbox is to small.
my suggestion would be:
Make the horizontal hitbox bigger
OR
Make the cooldown shorter so like 20 seconds or less.

I mean the 4 (Catalyze) have problems to hit enemys... the DMG is good or even great but when i hit only 1/4 or less of the enemys in range feels a little weak. So make the hitbox bigger or let us use the ability more often.

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Didn't test it on higher levels yet, but currently some of QOL is on my mind:

Mixing elements should be changed, cause mixing something for every single cast is pretty annoying, and I keep forgetting about it (pretty sure, a lot of ppl do). How I can see it - you mix something once, and it stays until you decide to change it. Yeah, if you currently have a single element and you want other single elemets - you'll need to mix it with smth first, but it still will be better. Cause for me it oftenly like - I see crowd of enemies, I want to use one of my abilities on them. I remember, that I forgot to mix new element from previous cast, I stay for a second in a crowd, mixing for element I need. Not an end of the world, but it is indeed frustrating. I understand that you wanted to give ppl this feeling of alchemisting actively during the battle, but I think there should be compromise

Second one will be shorter - his third feels underpowered and could use larger radius - I mean, you must throw it precisefully, currently, to get the most of it (and given it have pretty long cooldown - you really want it that way), but It's not always possible in a heat of a battle

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I just got done doing a steel path Capture with two Lavos where it took at least 8 or 9 minutes to kill a Juggernaut. Both of us were running status weapons to synergize with Lavos. The conclusion is simple: Lavos is absolutely useless anywhere that there is status resistance.

Status not called Viral is pretty underwhelming to begin with, when status is actively resisted you might as well be playing a worse version of meme Hildryn for all the good his abilities do. This makes him incredibly underwhelming in Deimos, the very place his blueprints are sold during this event.

...Also, why don't Catalyst's probes seek enemies?

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1 minute ago, God_Emperor_Phex said:

That is a very nice idea!!! It would solve the hitbox issue.

Given they move so slow, they wouldn't need much more than to be given a slight amount of turning. I'm not totally sure how hard such AI would be, but given they don't have to worry about collision, they wouldn't even need pathing like Vauban's tesla orbs. They should just pick a target that is in front of them and attempt to reach it.

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When Lavos was released, I knew I'd enjoy him before I ever played him - everything about him is very up-my-alley, and the ways he differs from other Warframes actually cause me to mod him (and things used while playing him) very differently from any other. It's opened up new possibilities, which I'd really been missing. Matching the elements to the enemies can actually be challenging, but it's actual challenge instead of the numbers game Warframe so often devolves into, actually requiring paying attention to what I'm fighting and in what proportions, which ones are priorities...it's really weirdly nice, and I mean that. I tend toward a "Well, this should work against...pretty much whatever, really," loadout philosophy, to be ready for essentially anything, and Lavos's alchemy works very well for that. So I spent all day trading for the plat to get the collection because both he and Cedo are almost creepily well-suited to my specific playstyle and methods, and I am completely satisfied with doing so.

But he's got some issues, which I feel are relatively minor. Primarily, I'd say they're issues of (ironically, perhaps) fluidity. As I am a great fan of giving unsolicited, potentially useless suggestions and opinions about video games and things in them, here's what I would do. Some things, if done, would require further changes.

General suggestion: I think it'd be good to just give everything a variation of the scaling damage treatment that Vauban's Flechette Orb got. But, you know, with the kind of follow-through that wouldn't leave Photon Strike useless because it doesn't hit as much.

Passive, with sidenote: I play with Tap/Hold inverted (thanks to Vauban's Minelayer), so I can mix elements very, very easily - Tap 1, tap 4, hold 2, press Space, I've decorated the place. Suits me fine...
Problem: ...but I do wish I could 'empty' my elemental tank in some way that doesn't trigger a cooldown, if I realize I've mixed the wrong elements and don't want to burn an ability cooldown, or don't want to burn a cooldown on an ability at that time anyway but want to clear my tank. Not a big deal, it's a brief and easy investment I can renew near-instantly, at least...
Suggestion: ...but it could be an opening for maybe something weird, like granting the next Melee Heavy Attack a Caustacyst-style sludge trail (on a cooldown of its own, which I'd probably set to match the duration of the sludge) of the element in the Imbue bucket, while emptying it. Or the next Heavy Slam attack, sludge pop, same deal. Melee Finishers. Could just be special melee actions in general (Heavy attacks, Slams, Throws, Finishers, Assassinations as a special single-target high-intensity enhancer, so as not to interfere with stealth).
The beatings may continue, but there's still horrible murder goo everywhere!

1: Ophidian Bite -
Problem: The description of the ability implies that it is a single-target, targeted ability ("...consuming the target..."), and the video of it does not show differently. Neither does the animation, really, with both snakes striking straight forward. I actually had to look at the wiki to confirm that it is, in fact, a cone AoE, and that the 'runway' delineated by my Energy colors is not just "The first schmuck in this zone gets it in the face." (Apparently it also opens enemies up to Melee Finishers! Hadn't noticed that.) Also, I dislike that it follows my reticle only horizontally, and I feel like that's probably related to the forced landing when cast in midair. Didn't those get addressed, like, forever ago, on a bunch of frames? The animation, while nice, is also expansive, which is a problem because Warframe's camera appears to be fixed to a particular couple positions that cause the frames to take up a bit more of the screen than maybe they should - but that's really an issue with Warframe itself.
Suggestion: If Ophidian Bite followed my reticle fully, not just horizontally, then this would make it a more responsive ability, and maybe allow for casting it in mid-air. For improving visibility of the AoE's limits, I recommend borrowing the imagery of the Caduceus, with energy serpents spiralng just inside the edge of the cone. Adjusting the aim system of the skill would probably also require it to have the animation modified; I recommend something that reduces how much of the screen Lavos takes up, while emphasizing the role of the snakes; personally, I'd probably use something like using his upper arms to press the serpents forward (lowering his weapons to do so), or taking an alchemically-themed, just-upper-body prayer-type position, and having them lunge forward in the direction of his aim under their own power. Needn't remain a full-body movement and restrict motion.
Can snakes do semaphore, or would it just be like that comic where the snake...with the swords...you know? Nevermind.

2: Vial Rush -
Problem: Firstly, it doesn't seem to go "crashing through enemies" very well, to me; that phrasing implies (in my opinion) that it damages and moves the enemies on dash-impact. The actual function is closer to "slipping" through, since it doesn't do damage on dash-impact and doesn't move the enemies. Pedantic? Probably! But I like descriptions to be as accurate as possible, so things function as closely to how they're described as possible. Secondly, it would be nice to be able to guide the dash (though it would make sense for it to steer like a boat). Thirdly, it's always disappointing to start doing it and then get stuck on a small obstruction I didn't realize would stop it. Lastly, for people with Tap/Hold inverted, it's difficult to stop precisely without jumping.
Suggestion: Change 'crashing' to 'slipping' so it doesn't sound like it does something else, allow loose guidance of the dash, allow it to slip over/around small obstructions (and run up/along walls, possibly restrict vial production while wall-running), and allow melee attacks, gunfire, aiming, and rolling to all halt the dash as well. When Slash Dash was made able to instantly full-equip Excalibur's melee weapon, it was an amazingly efficient, albeit subtle, improvement to Excalibur's fluidity (in my opinion), and made that ability (and therefore him) feel much more intuitive and fun. I want that for this.
If there's OSHA in space, the fines they assess must be...astronomical.

3: Transmutation Probe -
Problem: It gets stuck on things just the same as Vial Rush does, but at a different height.. Also, again with the horizontal-only reticle, but it'll glide down off of higher elevations and can be cast in mid-air.
Suggestion: Either A) allow the things to bounce off geometry like a Glaive does until their duration runs out, B) allow them to essentially 'wall-run' and continue moving while maintaining a certain distance and velocity from obstacles as long as possible, exceptions for doors and such, C) both (wall-running and such around obstacles under a certain size, bouncing off those above), or C) Transmutation Probe follows Lavos's aim when aiming down sights (or his camera while blocking, if he's using melee). Also, skip the horizontal-only thing. Just throw the Probe in whatever direction. Leaving it affected by gravity is fine.
...like a million squad restores cried out, and were suddenly silenced...

4: Catalyze -
Problem: Well, it doesn't seem to get stuck on things - instead, it just goes through them, like it has no collision at all. Also, yes, it's just horizontal. Which is why there's already been the necessity for a change to make it hit things higher and lower than it. Having a set spread of spokes can be nice, but it's also...lacking something.
Suggestion: Give collision, allow for A, B, or C from the Transmutation Probe. Adjust the position of the probes around Lavos according to the rotation of the camera - one should always go straight toward the crosshair, for example.
Alternately: Instead of deploying a ring of probes, maybe casting Catalyze could ready a set number of probes instead. Firing or performing melee attacks would then deploy them toward the crosshair. This would probably need further adjustment if this were done; it could be something of an issue if Lavos could deliver a set of Catalyze Probes as a focused assault.
It's lit, fam! YEET! I'm totally hip!

Personally, I don't think these changes would cause balance problems - adjust the damage baselines if scaling implemented, obviously, and probably review Catalyze's if the alternate suggestion were used. Ones that could cause issues - such as the passive and Catalyze's alternate - might work as Augments instead.

Finally, I think the only gripe I have about his visuals that's unique to him (as opposed to the camera position and the size of some recent additions, like the Bubonico and its top fin) is...his giant gloves. Not usually a problem, and I understand the aesthetic purpose, but it looks jank with the arm cannons, with the models clipping through each other.

also i want him to have a plague doctor mask head

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His 2 disables the sprint toggle.  There are some other mobility abilities that do this (and abilities that affect a frame's mobility), but it still shouldn't be a thing.

 

To clarify, I have set the sprint toggle option on in the settings so that I hold shift when I load into a mission, and then my frame is just always sprinting if I am moving forward.  Certain abilities, like Lavos' 2, disable that toggle, and I have to hold shift again after each cast to re-enable it.

 


In a game with this much repetition, even a minor snag like this really wears on you over time.  And for a frame as... button intensive as Lavos, anything to ease the burden would be welcome.

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Feedback Lavos:

First when i got him i was excited seeing that i can do elements and combine them. .... I thought that would also imbue the element on my weapons.... 

 

When i found out that it was just for the abilities i was very dissapointed.

 

Suggestion: Make those elements  work  also for the primary secondary and melee weapons.

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I was already quite apprehensive about Lavos when he was announced, and upon playing him... It really doesn't look good.

Passive

It feels like this went from paper to live without testing inbetween. It's too much of a hassle, in the middle of hectic combat, to spend two or three seconds on combining elements which only affect your -next- cast. As others have mentioned in this thread: Just let the elements sit there and affect -every- single cast you make until you change elements again. Just add two little blank slots at the top of the circle that holds the end element, to show what elements you put on. And if someone wants to change to poison? Just mix in two poison elements. Much easier on the micromanagement.

I'll consider cooldowns part of this passive as well and say that they feel... Pointless. I get that having really strong abilities be available all the time is a design-based drawback of the energy system, but this cooldown design really doesn't work to deviate from it. I had hoped that these cooldowns would be used to leverage far greater power than the abilities of Lavos' energy based colleagues get, but it is really nowhere to be found. His 1 has a slightly too long cooldown but is a really bad ability, his 2 has a very short cooldown and is a really bad ability, his 3 has a somewhat long cooldown and is a decent ability, and his 4 has a fairly long cooldown and is a very mediocre ability.

I had hoped that, at the very least, his 4 would have the same level of impact as Covenant. Harrow's ult is essentially cooldown-based, and that thing is -huge-. Catalyze? Thoroughly unremarkable.

Ophidian Bite

It's whipclaw. Why does Lavos have Whipclaw? I don't know. It's heavily range restricted and roots you in place. Does it do good damage? That's a solid 'meh'. This ability is uninspired, unintuitive and clunky. The 8 second cooldown is just an extra drawback that makes it easy to label this 'Whipclaw, but without any of the good aspects'.

Vial Rush

Honestly, this one is a bit offensive. Not only does it control screw the player by tacking on a random dash, but its effectiveness is also based on RNG. 

Starting with the dash: This is such a dramatically bad idea in Warframe. This mobility is infinitely worse than a Warframe's base mobility, making it a huge drawback to usability. It's bad at navigating terrain and it forces you to move, even if you do not want to. Half of using this ability is combating the dash, which really has no place on the ability.

The RNG part is particularly awful, as there's a large quantity of vials that get tossed out -randomly-, which each vial leaving behind a DoT. I specifically say DoT and not AoE DoT, because the vials have no AoE. They hit one specific individual random spot somewhere along the line you dashed (Or in a half-circle around the end-point) and unless the enemy is standing in that exact spot, they do nothing. This means you can sometimes run over an enemy with the vial rush without them getting hit with any of the vials. Its horribly unreliable and isn't dependable in the slightest. Which is probably why it has a 5 second cooldown, which kinda negates the concept of a cooldown, since that's how long it takes to recover from being force-pushed out of position.

The visual feedback on this ability is awful, too. A bunch of rocks floating -around- the point, but no ground decal -on- the point.

Also doesn't work against anything flying.

Transmutation Probe

It floats, but it doesn't really. It can only be fired horizontally, and is stuck to terrain. This is counterintuitive, since a floating probe should probably not be bound by gravity, since it's actively defying it. This would make much more sense as a simple line missile.

That said, this is probably the best designed ability since that is my only major gripe with it. Sure, its duration is pretty awful, and its base damage is terrible, but when infused with the passive, it does make for a straight-forward, reliable, dependable clear ability. Even in terms of visual feedback, it's all right. While the probe takes a bit too long to spawn, visually, it does clearly display its AoE with large, swirling energy that honestly looks pretty cool.

Oh yeah, that's right, it's supposed to be your tool for reducing your 4's cooldown. Well, you can forget about that, because that requires live enemies. And there's not gonna be enough when you play solo, and if you're playing in a squad, all enemies are already dead. 

I suggest giving it 25% of the base CDR for every drop it converts, to give the CDR a bit more reliability.

Catalyze

Why is there a two second cast time on this thing? Why is everything about this ability so unbelievably slow? It's not a remarkable ability either, there's loads of big AoE clears, but this one is so slow in all aspects...

The damage is entirely dependent on how much time went into getting it off the ground. If you manage to stack a lot of status effects on things, it's going to hurt. But at that point, you're looking at a cast time of probably around 10 to 15 seconds, as it means constantly mixing your passive in with the other three abilities.

And nothing is going to survive 10 to 15 seconds. It's got potential, sure, but it's not applicable. It might be possible when solo running steel path void endurance, but I'd be worried my Panzer Vulpaphyla would just kill enemies before I manage to get Catalyze off at decent output.

 

Theme - Alchemist

This is something that's less critical, but still quite disappointing. The concept of an Alchemist, the idea of creating all these kinds of concoctions, is very appealing. But Lavos isn't it. You think potions, mixtures, gases, all with varied and crazy effects.

Lavos is a snake-man with rocket-heels and drones. The only part of his kit that actually emphasises that he's an Alchemist, to me, is the Transmutation Probe. Vial Rush feels more suitable for Gauss or Nezha's themes (It is basically an unwieldy Firewalker or Mach Rush), while Catalyze feels more like a Protea or Vauban thing due to its emphasis on drones.

And then there's Ophidian Bite, which for some reason is a whip-strike. 

'But they're snakes!'

And snakes have no connotation with Alchemy. Snakes are apothecaries, farmaceuticals. It's medicine that's drawn from their venom. 

The passive isn't much of a saving grace either, since, well... It's got no gameplay impact. It's just purely on stats. Which leaves just the Transmutation Probe to carry the entire thematic design of 'Alchemist' into Lavos' kit. 

This would already be so much better if we didn't have Vial Rush' dash. It would be so much better at expressing the theme if it was just a singular, ground target AoE vial toss, preferably with variable gameplay effects based on what element is attached to it. Heck, Lavos has those two vials on his shoulders, make those a visual aid to the cooldown, give him two charges on it. It'd feel a lot more like an alchemist mixing up a toxin to lob at his enemies. 

An overarching issue with the kit as well is how much it lacks in variance. Every single ability is just for damage and status.

Every. Single. One.

No way to brew up a quick stim for your allies or pets, no area denial, no healing, no control, nothing. It's all just damage and status. Huge wasted opportunity when we could've had a DotA2 Invoker-esque frame with a very wide and creative kit, whose only real limit is your mastery of his massive potential. 

But we just got clunky damage. 

That still doesn't compete with just hitting E or LMB a couple of times.

 

Summary

Overall, while Lavos feels like he's just... A bit meh, a bit sub-par, I still really, really, really do not like him. Playing him just constantly reminds me of the massive amounts of wasted potential that could've been achieved with this frame. The theme presented opened him up to effortlessly waltz in and take the top spot on my list of favourite warframes, but narrow, shallow, uninspired and disjointed design just makes him plummet down the rankings. 

Lavos gets my vote for 'most disappointing Warframe'.

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Don't know if anyone adressed his "energy" policy but it is rdiculous if you infuse an ability into him which will bring me to another point.

1. Energy = Cooldown

His abilities working on cooldown is fine but it should actually be somewhat relativ to how long and strong the ability is. Looking at his catalyze it takes 30sec cooldown. At this point this is equivalent to an energy cost of 150 energy. Thats ridiculous! How do you get to 150? Easy! Infuse an ability like Breach Surge into him that costs 50 energy default and then you get the cooldown equivalent of 10 sec.

If you now take the other abilities and their damage into account none of the energy/cooldown actually makes sense. i would strongly recommend:

  1. His first ability to scale with melee
  2. Transmutation probe to cost no cooldown and have a heavier impact on cooldown
  3. catalyze to be a persitant AOE scaling with duration

2. Infusion of Abilities

It is too bad that his abilities are tied to his elementals. Why? Well the combination you could do if this wasn't the case would be insane! Breach Surge with "heat procs" omfg yes. But instead you loose the elemental that you exchanged with that ability. This shouldn't be the case and the infused abilities should also benefit from his passive.

At this point Lavos is no good. Just like Xaku. Protea was borderline and only saved by infusion of Larva.

Please....Please make Lavos good!

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After 29.6.2, Catalyze is feeling much better as an expanding damage and status proc zone.

Kind of a shame that Transmutation Probe is meant to last only 3 seconds. It's got a cool model with visual effects I want to stare at a little longer in-mission. Maybe meet the middle ground at 5 seconds?

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I found his first ability to be weird, especially when it doesn't hit enemies in front of the cone if there's a slight elevation/bump in between them.

Other than that he is hilarious with status primers and his four. He is unexpectedly strong with CC with the guaranteed procs on the ice and electricity and is overall decently survivable when out an about naked. He laughs in the face of the infested whilst blasting their face for trying to energy siphon him.

That said he does take a lot of commitment and big brain moves to bring out his full potential. Specially when tracking his cooldowns becomes slightly distracting, he isnt nearly as bad as people are making him out to be, say; Hydroid, and i would place him alongside Protea within a similar pedestal in terms of being able to do almost everything.

 

QOL change would be keeping a mixed element for 2-3 casts. In its current iteration is very flexible but tiresome on the fingers. This, on a frame that is based around cooldowns and not spamming down ability buttons and we basically lose half of the total damage on any ability if we happen to not make use of the passive as well as the massive chance on making a mistake if someone happens to have fat fingers.

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Previews for Lavos show an energy-count in the market and arsenal selection menus, rather than indicating "0" like Hildryn.
"Cooldown" and "Shields" would be more informative than "0" for both, though, to indicate their unique ability mechanics.

Hover-Tooltips more fully explaining "Lavos's abilities have cooldowns instead of energy costs" and "Hildryn's abilities cost Shield points instead of energy" would also be more informative.

(Sorry if this was already observed and mentioned elsewhere without me seeing it)

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18 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

His 2 disables the sprint toggle.  There are some other mobility abilities that do this (and abilities that affect a frame's mobility), but it still shouldn't be a thing. To clarify, I have set the sprint toggle option on in the settings so that I hold shift when I load into a mission, and then my frame is just always sprinting if I am moving forward.  Certain abilities, like Lavos' 2, disable that toggle, and I have to hold shift again after each cast to re-enable it.
In a game with this much repetition, even a minor snag like this really wears on you over time.  And for a frame as... button intensive as Lavos, anything to ease the burden would be welcome.

Well said .... same here !

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yeah after throwing quite a few formas on lavos I can guarantee atleast 2 things.

1. his other abilities, not just his ult, need the extra damage per status effect mechanic. the cooldowns and time it takes to imbue elements don't feel justified when your non ult abilities merely debuff most of the time just so you can set up your ult, and then offense wise when your ult is on cooldown your ability damage output spikes down even if you perfectly mix and match elements.

2. his 2 needs actual splash explosions when vials break, it could be just a static 2 meters like the puddles but anything to help speed up the time it takes the vials to start damaging enemies, because there's a huge delay between the vials flying off, hitting the ground, and the puddles affecting enemies. and no the explosion when the charge ends does not help, especially along the charges trail.

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Only problem I have with him is that some VIAL RUSH effects heavily impact game performance while others don't. Maybe it's just some pcs that will struggle with this, but I can definitely see the fps difference between corrosive or heat vial rush compared to viral or just pure cold.

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Make lavos invulnerable when sliding

 

he's got no survivability outside of Radprocs and Cold procs ... and those do nothing when enemies kill you in one hit and target you anyway ( you still aggro while rad procced )

 

so like excalibur and hydroid, this would be a very nice way to prevent build from being broken, and ability set being changed too drastically in the future when more people will complain about it ( thinking of Ember and Vauban in this case )

 

As in ... it defenitely can be enjoyable, doing high level missions with lavos, but only when making use of a melee weapon that blocks all incoming damage from the front

 

try using a gun for more than 1 continuous second and it's all over.

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46 minutes ago, Doraz_ said:

Make lavos invulnerable when sliding

 

he's got no survivability outside of Radprocs and Cold procs ... and those do nothing when enemies kill you in one hit and target you anyway ( you still aggro while rad procced )

 

so like excalibur and hydroid, this would be a very nice way to prevent build from being broken, and ability set being changed too drastically in the future when more people will complain about it ( thinking of Ember and Vauban in this case )

 

As in ... it defenitely can be enjoyable, doing high level missions with lavos, but only when making use of a melee weapon that blocks all incoming damage from the front

 

try using a gun for more than 1 continuous second and it's all over.

I used him with cedo, silva & aegis prime and his abilities for 45 minutes in steel path just because I was curious. Never had any issues with his survivability and I never feared I'll get oneshoted. His base armor value is high and is also something you can and should boost. I also equiped Adaptation and I never used raditation procs, cold only proced when I used vial rush.

His survivablity comes from armor, procing status like there's no tomorrow and in healing yourself with his 1. ability. Try out the armor + adaptation thing, he can be really tanky I assure you ;)

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6 minutes ago, Samhel said:

I used him with cedo, silva & aegis prime and his abilities for 45 minutes in steel path just because I was curious. Never had any issues with his survivability and I never feared I'll get oneshoted. His base armor value is high and is also something you can and should boost. I also equiped Adaptation and I never used raditation procs, cold only proced when I used vial rush.

His survivablity comes from armor, procing status like there's no tomorrow and in healing yourself with his 1. ability. Try out the armor + adaptation thing, he can be really tanky I assure you ;)

infested sneezes :(  ... ( and farts, from flying ones)

Lavos theme seems to be unique-ness ... so it can't be standard DR like most other frames

 

The other idea is Lavos regenerating his shields as well if he uses his 1st ability with any element added on it ( instead of using it empty).

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1 minute ago, Doraz_ said:

infested sneezes :(  ... ( and farts, from flying ones)

Lavos theme seems to be unique-ness ... so it can't be standard DR like most other frames

 

The other idea is Lavos regenerating his shields as well if he uses his 1st ability with any element added on it ( instead of using it empty).

Oh well, you can't really do anything with the sneezes :/ Only way to not get oneshotted by them is to either have something that dies for you or you just try to avoid them. *Sad tenno noises*

About the farts, well, you're immune to statuses while you're picking up energy orbs, or the transmuated orbs that you created. I would either play around with that or try rapid resilience, or even arcane resistance, exclusively against infested.

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