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Operation: Orphix Venom - Lavos Feedback Megathread (Read First Post)


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I have to agree with some others here that he should keep the element you mix active until you want to change it, at least for longer than just one use because its quite annoying in the long run having to remix it for every cast. 

Also, I wish the transmute probe was a large AoE instead of this thing that moves in a line like it does, so I didnt have to spend time finding piles of pickups to convert before casting which kinda defeats the purpose of its cooldown reduction if I have to wait to use it effectively. But that's personal preference. 

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Just finished formaing Lavos and bring him to a mission ( 30min Arbi Infested survival ) . This one is really hopeful .

I really like we can choose the element we attack with , which mean we can select the best element for the faction we're facing , or choose CC procs to control the field . The combination is indeed fascinating .

Not to mention of 4 of his abilities are useful , and are not being forced , which is my personal standard for a good frame . 

 

At start , I'm really worried about a CD base system , because a part of the fun of Warframe is spamming abilities . But it turn out to be not as bad as I assumed . Instead of being limited , I fell more challenged to use my knowledge and wits to manage it .

 

I will give 8/10 . A really nice end for 2020 .

 

There's only a bit of issue I wish to address .

 I hope we can turn left/right a bit more while we are using his 2. It's easy to get stock a small corner .

And I think his 3 could last a bit longer by default , and maybe last longer if we set it in place .

Also the delay between the casting and actual damage of his 4 could be shorter to have a better feeling .

 

so.. yeah , that's it . Really nice one.

Maybe just a bit more effect to make us feel like we really hit things?

 

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Did MR30 test with just Lavos skills and his signature weapon Cedo, no secondary, melee or operator combat (which would make it much easier and faster).  200% strength

If you notice Im walking its because Lavos resets sprint after ability use and I was too busy having to juggle elements all the time, rip my fingers. 

I really hope it gets changed to remember the elements you've selected and not reset them all the time.

 

Edited by Monolake
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Console player, don't own him, read feedback, watched videos, blah, blah, blah. Let's take a look at how we could fix this boi. 

General: Make the imbued elements stay active for, let's say, more or less 15 seconds, instead of them resetting on ability cast. This would cut down on micromanaging and make it less of a pain to actually fully utilize his kit. This mechanic could also be modifiable by Lavos' ability duration. Also, Lavos' status duration should not affect his weapons. At least not when below 100%. Shouldn't the idea be to have a status spreader built for SD to balance out a Lavos build with low SD and vice versa? The last thing in this category would be Lavos' bonus to his signature weapon. Isn't it kinda redundant that he grants it ammo mutation, when his 3 converts all ammo pickups into universal ones? A more fitting bonus would be more SD, more SC, another random element on the glaive, automatic magazine replenishment from reserves, or something else along those lines.  

Ophidian Bite: Decrease the cooldown time to either match that of his 2 or be even lower than that. 

Vial Rush: Make the vials' AOE scale with power range. Give Lavos a degree of maneuverability while using this ability. Make it so Lavos can actually use this ability while in the air, instead of dropping to the ground. Make this ability a grouping tool that could synergize with his 3, e.g dashing into a group of enemies would line them up behind Lavos and maybe stun them for a second or two, kinda like Bonewidow's 3. To balance this feature out a bit it could only work if the ability was cast on the ground.  

Transmutation Probe: Get rid of the cooldown on this one and make it cost a portion of Lavos' health. It would allow this tanky caster frame to actually cast his other abilities on a consistent basis and would fit nicely with the equivalent exchange alchemy meme. The amount of health required to cast this ability could be something like 1/4 or 1/3 of his total HP at max rank to not make it super spamable. Other frames don't really have to worry about waiting to use their abilities nowadays, with all the arcanes, mods, Operator perks, and subsumable abilities that replenish energy, so why can't Lavos have a bit of an edge by default when it comes to casting? Also, the probe shouldn't be locked to just one axis. 

Catalyze: Decrease the cooldown time by 10 seconds or so. Make it so tapping the ability sends out a concentrated circle of drones that travel in a straight line (to synergize with the Vial Rush change mentioned above), and holding the ability makes it do what it does now. Plus, many people have already pointed out that the gel mentioned in this ability's description is not a thing. Make it a thing. You could even just copy-paste the effect of the Penta's Nightwave augment lol. 

Edited by (PSN)InbredJimbo
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17 hours ago, Bakahung said:

Just finished formaing Lavos and bring him to a mission ( 30min Arbi Infested survival ) . This one is really hopeful .

I really like we can choose the element we attack with , which mean we can select the best element for the faction we're facing , or choose CC procs to control the field . The combination is indeed fascinating .

Not to mention of 4 of his abilities are useful , and are not being forced , which is my personal standard for a good frame . 

 

At start , I'm really worried about a CD base system , because a part of the fun of Warframe is spamming abilities . But it turn out to be not as bad as I assumed . Instead of being limited , I fell more challenged to use my knowledge and wits to manage it .

 

I will give 8/10 . A really nice end for 2020 .

 

There's only a bit of issue I wish to address .

 I hope we can turn left/right a bit more while we are using his 2. It's easy to get stock a small corner .

And I think his 3 could last a bit longer by default , and maybe last longer if we set it in place .

Also the delay between the casting and actual damage of his 4 could be shorter to have a better feeling .

 

so.. yeah , that's it . Really nice one.

Maybe just a bit more effect to make us feel like we really hit things?

 

The "new toy" feeling had wear of , and I play test him a bit more in different environment.

Here's a more non-biased feed back.

 

I'll still give Lavos 8/10 for concept , but he's a little weak , some tweak is needed.

 

1

This ability is probably the second choice for spreading status beside his 2 .

But currently , this ability have a really weird hit box , and really struggle to hit vertically. 

It's range is also a bit small , I suggest a bit more range.

Oh , and it's CD is a bit long.

 

2

This is his primary form of status spreading.

Aside from not really feeling I hit anything , it's an efficient ability.

Add a bit range and mobility than it will be great.

 

3

This is not a bad ability on it's own beside short duration , but since it's the only way to reduced cool down , I can't really cast it whenever I want and use it's other function ( zapping and orbs/ammo) .

I hope there can be more ways to reduced cool down.

Like energy orb , or his 1 can also reduced CD , or something.

 

4

Because the hit box bug , I can't really tell it's powerful or bad .

My guts tell me it needs a bit more damage , and/or travel faster , but I'm not sure.

 

 

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  1. Blueprints feedback
  • repeats, preview video on TAB, and RNG build rewards rubedo, glyph, etc.
  • lavos bought will need exclusives versus build version, both versions needed should unlock a special reward, decoration for starters.

whats really missing? well the problem rightnow is that you have no use for regular warframe and repeat blueprints, players can sell them and rebuild them but they have no use or randomized features, at least the players can get some left over items or loot as they build, say, spare rubedo wasn't used because the railjack saves 10% on rubedo, or condenser of somesort is equiped on the robot, having a dog sniffing and digging, energy pickups, and repeats will need other features, or passives, my idea was that there be some switching on secondary primary, melee is seamless but secondary gets u killed, revives also not that special, it should at least be faster or have other interesthing things, if you have the pickups get infested and they need cleaning, gives ordis and the orbiter a good purpose, this means the blueprints you collected and mods would have datums and other cypher things to find, this makes lockers more interesting decyphering and scanning would be more rewarding.

  1. the players who buy lavos with platinum will need a exclusive skin and other glyphs, otherwise its not interesting.
  2. exclusive mods and rewards. 
Edited by SnakeBadger
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Honestly loving Lavos so far, he's really fun.

However I don't really like having to imbue my elements every time I cast an ability. Would be better if I could just assign an element via infusion then have it stay set to that until I decide to change it. If I'm fighting infested and want to use gas, I don't want to have to punch in gas every single time I cast for example.

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why don't his abilities all have a 5 second cooldown excluding the ult? especially his transmutation probe since it's the only ability that can't have it's cooldown reduced.

also why don't all his abilities gain extra damage per status effect? especially for ophidian bite since that would help increase the healing gains.

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Sorry if I'm late, I doubt you will read this, but I wanted to be sure to have properly used the frame before giving a complete review.

 I like the idea of cooldowns, it's a difficult path but could led to interesting outcomes. I'm curious about alternatives to the energy system which is the only constant in almost all the frames BUT the cooldowns in order to work should permit a fluent gameplay which I'm struggling to achieve with Lavos.

1) Ophidian Bite

The damage output is okay. But the CD duration makes the range , LoS and movement restriciton unbearable. Without some kind of gathering/grouping abilities Ophidian bite often is inadequate to deal with the inconstant flow of enemies even maxing range and using the synergy with the Probe. If waiting for a timer was not an high cost by itself, having to deal the bad checks of LoS and be nailed to the ground for cast makes killing enemies with weapons in almost every case a faster and more efficient choice.

In practice use I feel it worth only for the health recovery and as a finishing opener. We have far better choices both as procs and damage dealer with not so many negatives.

 

2) Vial Rush 

Only few closed spaces permit to have a good use of Vial Rush and the only case in which I use it is when Ophidian Bite, Probe and Catalyze are on CD.        In my opinion what should take this place is a gathering ability. I know the risk is to make him too similar to Nidus or Khora, but Lavos literally screams the necessity to have one. Ophidian Bite is only worth when casted on big amounts of enemies gathered, Transmutation Probe reduces CDS according to enemies affected and consequently this affects the viability of Catalyze .

If you wants to keep a "ground effect" ability I would opt for this: the ability to launch the vials we crafts as a sort of grenade. It would break on the first obstacol/object/enemy ecountered and pull in enemies in a radial range of 10-15 meters toward the center meanwhile releasing its content imbued with the selected element on them and the ground, expanding according to range.

This would not only enhance a lot the gameplay of Lavos, but would make Vial (Rush) a much more desirable ability to subsume in other warframes.

 

3) Transumatation Probe

I feel the only problem the ability has is that while playing with other 3 teammates is quite hard to capitalize on a decent number of enemies to take advantage of its full potential. And since this skill is the key to have a fluent gameplay, I'm often forced to play solo in order to enjoy Lavos gameplay. Again some sort of gathering/grouping ability would supplement this so much.

 

4)Catalyze

It's an expanding sphere of damage. Not the most engagin of the ults but does its job, and the bonus damage according to status is a nice perk which puts a bit of strat in it. Still I'd love to see more interactions and sinergy with 1st and 2nd abillity.

 

Mixing Elements 

As others have pointed out, mixing elements can become annoying in the midst of battle, with all the chaos and cc happening, but it's a mechanics which distinguishes Lavos and I really appreciate it even if it could use some QoL. I would make a sort of "memory" preference. After using a certain element for an ability, the element used would be saved and set as "default" in the vial ui for next abilties. If the player at that point wants to use a different element from the "memorized" one, he would just have to select another element which would simply overwrite the preference without combining with it as if no element was there to begin with . After that, the most used element (by number) becomes the default. This would not change the need to use the mixing mechanics, but only spare the chore to imbue the same element over and over again making it clumsy.

Example:      1) I use fire for Ophidian Bite

                    2)Fire is saved as default and is ready for my next skill cast

                    3a) I want to use Fire on my next ability -> I use it -> Fire is ready again

                    3b) I don't want to use Fire on my next ability -> I use Poison Instead -> Poison becomes default and will be ready for next cast

                    After using different elements for 3 casts , (2 Fire and 1 poison for example), the element used more for number of abilities casted is selected as default.

                    If more element has even advantage on the others ( 2 Fire, 2 Poison, 1 Cold ) the default one will simply be the last used from even amount of casted abilities, (Poison in the example)

 

As always I appreciate your work, and I hope that my feedback gave you some interesting insights and input. Have a good 2021 !

Edited by Cloud
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I think I have a grasp on the frame now. I'd like to offer some alternatives to the popular suggestions.

TL;DR index since the post became quite long:

  • Tap/Hold is not fun. See the three two suggested alternatives.
  • Efficiency is too worthless on probe, see new formula.
  • Damage is good, utility is good, blast is bad.
  • Status-immunity passive is unreliable to play around. See alternative.
  • Love the Boot-Heels.
  • Skeptical on the popular suggestion to have elements stick around after casting.

The frame overall is quite complex, probably the highest skill ceiling of all frames due to the enemy-specific nuances of the status system. I dare say it will bring a new appreciation for some of the more neglected status effects such as magnetic, cold, and gas (but not blast).

The full ability rotation of this frame is among the longest in the game for a full combo. My biggest complaint is the tap/hold mechanic adding time to the combo and being hard on the hands, but I offered a couple solutions in my last post. To sum them up:
- Add frame-specific tap-hold inversion settings, as it is inconsistent between all frames. Added as of 29.6.4, Thank you!!
- Let me bind individual hold functions, for Lavos and all other frames with such mechanics. The ALT key is a completely unused modifier I would definitely set for this.
- Add a slider for the hold-delay. It's just over 500ms by default, but I would like to shorten it to ~200ms or so. 

I'm fairly impressed with the damage. His first three skills still hold up at level 130 (at 260% strength, 4-forma), and memorizing health and armor vulnerabilities becomes useful to make his heal optimal. Very cool. It would greatly help if the Damage over Time from Ophidian Bite also counted towards the Damage -> Health, such as the toxin proc, as it technically is damage you've dealt.

The scaling of transmutation probe with efficiency is far inferior and out of tune to efficiency scaling on other frames. 175% efficiency allows for 4x more spellcasting per energy on frames, while 175% efficiency on Lavos only increases CD reduction by 1.75x. Unless efficiency mods scaled to 400%, they are not worth equipping. I suggest the scaling for the probe's CD reduction be [1 / (1second x (1 - efficiencyMods))]. That will let it scale from 1s to 4s from 100% to 175% efficiency, on par with efficiency scaling on other frames. Alternatively, let efficiency modify the actual cooldowns of all skills, that also hands substantial value to the probe's cooldown reduction, and the effectiveness of Lavos' overall combo rate.

His utilities are limited at first, but you learn to use the elements like Cold, Electric and Heat for crowd control as well as radiation and blast to a more limited extent. Unfortunately for those last two, there isn't much time to spare for them in the combo. Might pick one in the perfect scenario, but that's fine. He's got a heal, exceptional EHP, and even the ammo conversion is an underrated bonus. Like what frame has ever done that before!? His status immunity passive is maybe the most unreliable part, it's more of a surprise bonus, but you can't play around it. The only alternative I can suggest would be that each orb gives a token that resists one status effect, and you could collect up to say, 15 - 30 at a time. That's something you can dependably play around. Technically less value per orb, as you currently can resist an unlimited number of effects as long as it's within 10 seconds.

His damage ceiling lies in Catalyze, which up to it's full elemental potential deals 4 million damage with 12 million more damage over time. Double that again with lifted status, and quadruple it again for viral for a near 140mil damage total. Enemies resistant to even a single effect drastically reduce the potential damage, especially if it's viral. The upside to this skill is that unlike the pseudo-exhalteds, it doesn't depend on mods to reach such heights. I believe it's the highest damage skill that isn't percentage based or Splinter Storm, however that is only in instantaneous damage. For the time it takes to deliver the full nuke, you must reliably land all the correct status procs, and they all need to last long enough by the time you let it rip. It probably takes about 6 seconds to pull off the full combo, mostly due to the tap/hold mechanic, and in that time, abilities like landslide will out-DPS it, but they're close. Key targets you would *want* to deliver the full combo to are often immune to one or more status effects, which will limit your damage options to weapons in those cases and your abilities to their status utility. I would also suggest along with many other players to add some more vertical leeway to the skill, particularly below. Let the stuff fall all the way down, even if it takes time. At least that way you can prep by ascending instead of placing yourself at *just* the right elevation.

Vial rush feels pretty solid! The puddles need some precise placement due to their small size, but they are reliable enough and rewarding with their incredible proc rate. It is much appreciated that Jump cancels the rush, otherwise I would need to HOLD 2.

Some enemies have status rules that prevent most of his abilities from applying effects, while Bite does. Ambulas for example only receives status procs from Ophidian Bite. Would like the rest of the kit to apply as well.

Comments about elements and the wider status ecosystem:
I kinda hoped damage types would be more important, since I'd mostly memorized every enemy hp and armor type along with their vulnerabilities :D, but due to Catalyze being his big nuke, far beyond his other skills, the only damage option at the top is Heat. Not Gas, Not Corrosive, Not Viral. Heat does the most damage solely for it's indefinite duration that not even old gas can hold a candle to. A million damage heat proc can be sustained until the *next* big one, and so on while dealing damage the entire time. Now despite that, Gas is seeing *some* usage due to how abilities do not depend on element mod multipliers (did you know element mods don't increase gas damage on weapons? that needs to change!! electric exists with more damage and stun!!! gas is a secondary element with neither!!!!) but it's a toss-up between that and electric since Lavos has no innate grouping ability.

Radiation, while rare, has it's very useful scenarios, particularly with infested and can be used defensively or as a anti-alloy damage type for Ophidian Bite. 

Magnetic is close enough to your fingertips that it's practical to apply to most corpus targets before finishing them with different elements.

Blast... needs help. It actually has the coolest special effect on Lavos' abilities, but it needs to do something else. Knockdown was previously the ultimate crowd control, and it counted twice for condition overload. I hope this is not just a throw-away innate element for launchers. It doesn't have any ideal damage cases except for the rare machinery type, and only when they are armor stripped which lavos cannot do. Electric should be used in those cases anyway for its bonus proc damage. There is no information on how accuracy works, and my brief testing hasn't exactly proved it's effectiveness. I'll play around with it more, maybe it's useful on top of all the other crowd control, but nobody is going to use it on it's own. Maybe if it made the enemies deaf, or lose awareness of you through some concussion, or blasted the weapons right out of their hands so they have to run and get them. Let it throw them across the room where they take bonus damage on impact scaling with the modded blast multiplier. Make it a straight 300% of base damage, on par with the other DoTs, but instantaneous and scaling with status duration, worthy of a secondary element. Nerf the status chance slightly of innate-blast weapons to compensate. Just make it *something*. It can only be paired with the now mediocre corrosive, and it won't be replacing heat with such damage.

My conclusions thus far are that the frame is a beautiful utilization of the status system that really couldn't have happened without the "Revised" status 3.0 rework, despite where I disagree on many of the changes it made. You don't need balanced diversity when a frame exists that uses it all. I feel that he has weakness with bosses, and excels in star chart missions as some kind of offensive-support. I don't think there is a comfortable way to have elements remain after casting. You always want new elements, and I fear it could further clunk-up the frame. Those players should invert tap/hold and suffer with my hold-cast abilites!

He is very fun, and I love his boot heels. I will be playing much more of Lavos likely regardless of changes, but they will be much appreciated. 

Edited by VhwatGoes
Quick index re-ordering, Typo, Crossed of one adopted suggestion.
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My impressions so far: 

Abilities

1)  Vial Rush needs slight steering, just like Gauss' Mach Rush. 

2)  I think Ophidian Bite should apply 6-10 stacks (it applies 3 now) of non damage procs.    Coz there is no burst in Lavos' kit.... only Cedo, but its not his ability. 

Need to max debuff VIPs.    Increase its cooldown a bit as a drawback (its pretty short rn).  Maybe add duration to its healing....very maybe.

Visuals

Snake animations could use some work.  Idle animation seams are very noticeable, and snake "coils" do not disappear from his arms when they "go for a walk".

Both helmets clip (rear hoses and protrusions) in both animation sets. Either head angle needs adjustment, or trim helmet rears a bit.  

 

But its a decent frame as is tbh.    I enjoy.  

 

[extras]

 

You can also improve his "burst potential"  by adding multiple cooldown bars to some abilities.    

For example, Rush can have 3 charges with 3 separate cooldowns.   You can put really long cooldown, but it will feel very short if you use ability sparingly. Burst it, and you will have to wait for all 3 to recharge.  

Tested this in both Titanfall|2 (almost all abilities) and Deep Rock Galactic (flares).

 

 

Edited by Kainosh
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You gave us vial rush, so yea i love you for it cause im all about ice, but why not give us imbue? Lavos thing is combining vials not just imbue you know (lets just say it is)?  When I tell YOU, that i have been LONGING, to make all of my warframes, ice warframes instead of playing pretend like some 2 year old!!! This ability, could do that, and really is not that op. Its just a cold proc and a little bit of damage. Come on now, please lolol

 

  • I mean think about Nyx 4, it could have slow to help it out a bit!!!
  • Loki 4, YAP slow for some more CC ftw
  • Ash, guess what, CC on his 4 baby!
  • Or check this out, cc Sayrn oh yeah!
  • Atlas Rumblers? They could passively stack cold procs on your most annoying enemies like mini bosses!
  • Hydroid shooting ice sickles instead of water, dats hot cool!
  • Gara FEMALE ICE QUEEN

 

Actually, no forget that. That's too selfish. You know whats better? let us imbue any of Lavos elements based on emissive energy color! Fire, electric, toxin, etc, everybody gets some love! And its it shouldnt be op either

DE, its cool, its fun, its balanced, do it!

 

Edited by (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII
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12 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

based on emissive energy color!

Sort of like how chroma's old passive worked or equinoxe's current subsumeable ability? Interesting idea but I dont think they have any plans to expand upon/change current subsumed abilities. Would like to be wrong about that though.

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2 minutes ago, JimmuTanno88 said:

Sort of like how chroma's old passive worked or equinoxe's current subsumeable ability? Interesting idea but I dont think they have any plans to expand upon/change current subsumed abilities. Would like to be wrong about that though.

yup! I'm hoping since he's more new they'd consider

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On 2021-01-03 at 7:12 PM, (XBOX)ShadowBlood89 said:

subsume is to give a non signature warframe ability.

I used to care, then i relized that diminishing the effects of abilities worked as a way to limit the glory stealing potential of original warframes, like subsuming frost snow globe and getting less range wouldnt hurt frost much at all. Frost still ice king and maintains his image

So that reduces the "rule" down to something of grave insignificance

larvos creation was just icing on the cake

 

Im still not for the complete mix and matching of warframe abilities BUT DE is going in a direction that has opened me up to it more. We can remove the "signature ability" rule and focus more on balance. That rule i think was actually just made to help warframes maintain their image, nothing more im pretty sure.

Plus, the thing about balance is most burst abilities are not op in warframe so think Frost 1, Nehza ring toss, or  Excal 3. If DE is willing, id definietly say its more then okay to start allowing these abilities to be subsumable. They wont really need a rework as much as things like loki's decoy does and even if they do, you cant really go wrong reworking these abilities if your intent is only to buff. All that will happen is players will have their subsumed builds be made even better, or made to stay the same by using the "Diminished" rule

Edited by (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII
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Initial Thoughts

I'd like to start off by saying Lavos is, in my opinion, one of the better if not the best new Warframes launched in 2020, not only in terms of general bugginess and usability, but also aesthetic and mechanical design. He's fun and unique with his element mixing theme and callback to traditional RPG style cooldowns in abilities in place of energy. In fact I found him so fun and interesting that he was the first frame I put an Umbra Forma on and now, after a few days of playing around with him in different mission types from low lvls to steel path, I think I've gotten a feel for some of his pros and cons both major and minor.

Theme and Aesthetics

I have to say that DE did a bang-up job with Lavos' visual design. From the snakes on his arms to his show-offy idles, I get a sort of "Suave Chemist" feel from his model and animations which I find really cool and I just have to show my appreciation for it. His personality even shows in his gameplay, like with that slick slide stance during Vial Rush. I just have nothing but good things to say about his visuals! Big thumbs up from me on that regard!

Gameplay

Before I go into detail with each of his abilities, I haven't encountered any bugs with Lavos thus far. His gameplay for the most part has been relatively smooth and I've been able to get his mechanics down to a competent level with a little bit of practice. Lavos' element mixing is one of his strongest and most unique aspects, giving him the ability to take on any faction in the game with relative ease and all of his abilities are useful in some way, though some more than others. His gameplay is much more deliberate than other Warframes because of his cooldowns, encouraging a little more thought before committing to a cast, which I quite appreciate. For me at least, this makes Lavos more engaging to play than other Frames that prefer spamming abilities until everything is dead.

I appreciate that Ability Efficiency isn't a simple flat cooldown reduction to his abilities, instead only affecting the CDR on his Transmutation Probe, and that Ability Duration affects the duration of status procs. I think this gives players a little more build variety as efficiency is no longer a hard necessity for ability upkeep, allowing space for other mods. However, an issue I have with Lavos is that his cooldowns sometimes feel too harsh because what the ability offers simply doesn't warrant that cooldown duration. I sometimes feel that I'm not getting enough out of my deliberated ability casts and often find myself getting more out of using only my weapons.

That being said, Lavos is still quite strong and can definitely hold his own in higher level content, though I found myself struggling to get the most out his abilities in team settings mainly because of the amount of setup he needs to pull off a big clear. By the time I'm done spreading statuses everywhere my squadmates already nuked the room. Similarly when I try to cut down my cooldowns with Transmutation Probe, my allies clear the enemies before the Probe gets to zap them, but more often than not the Probe gets stuck on geometry and fails to reach the group I was targeting.

Lavos is definitely fun and strong, but he is limited by some of his ability interactions and cooldowns.

Here are my detailed thoughts:

Passive

The element mixing portion of his passive took some time at first to get used to, but after playing around with it for some time, I eventually got into the habit of mixing elements in set patterns depending on what I'm fighting. For me, the inputs felt a little clunky and I sometimes fat fingered elements I didn't want to mix, forcing me to use an ability to get rid of the unwanted element. Aside from that, a good understanding of status effects and mastery of the cauldron does feel quite rewarding. I can setup for big room clears or mass CC with the appropriate combos and it feels good to use once you get the hang of it.

The status immunity portion is a tad awkward at times. Sure I pick up a random energy orb and gain status immunity, but I often find myself without the buff when I could really use it. This is likely because of the short duration of 10s with the option to refresh only after the effect expires.

     Suggestions:

For the element mixing, it would be nice to have the option to clear the cauldron without forcing a cooldown or perhaps replacing the unwanted element with a new input.

For the status immunity, I think it would be a lot more consistent if the effect could stack up to 2x with the ability to refresh a when a stack is gone. As in picking up 2 energy orbs for 20s of status immunity with the ability to pick up another orb when the effect is at <10s remaining.

Ophidian Bite

Being Lavos' primary survivability tool, I feel that Ophidian Bite is a bit underwhelming. Its damage falls off quite quickly at around mid level content, even more so against armored enemies, but it makes up for the lack of damage in the chunky heal attached to it. This ability also feels clunky to aim - similar to pre-patch Whipclaw - as I often find myself whiffing enemies as they walk right past me.

In higher level content, the utility from the heal falls off quite quickly as enemies simply shred the health I just restored almost instantaneously, forcing me to use Spoiler Mode to escape/heal or just spam pizzas. If Ophidian Bite is not meant to be a damage tool, it needs to have its utility as a survival ability emphasized. If it is meant to be primarily a damage ability, it needs some sort of scaling so it can keep up at higher levels. As it stands, 8s feels too long for what this ability offers.

     Suggestions:

It would be a nice QoL change to give Ophidian Bite the Whipclaw treatment and allow aiming until the moment of impact.

Survival focused: To emphasize the ability "consuming the enemy", I think it would make sense for the Ophidian Bite to not only consume the health of enemies hit, but also a portion of their shields/armor for an instant (over)shield restore and/or a temporary armor buff. This would greatly enhance what the ability offers and mitigate the possibility of getting oneshot immediately after casting the ability.

                                                                                                                                   OR

Damage focused: I think giving the ability status scaling similar to Catalyze or a level scaling effect would allow it to remain competitive in the damage department. Nothing too fancy here.

If neither change would be viable, I think a shorter base cooldown would be warranted - 6s sounds reasonable.

Vial Rush

A good ability with a good effect and reasonable cooldown. It's decent for spreading status and moving across flat, unobstructed surfaces. My main issue with this ability is the lack of ability to steer (like Mach Rush) causing me to get snagged on level geometry too often. I also feel like the vials' AoE is too small and the main status spreading part of this ability is the explosion at the end/when deactivating. The 5s cooldown is fair, so no complaints there.

     Suggestions:

Allow steering similar to Mach Rush and allow aim glide to be held when cast from the air so we don't just drop like a rock. It would make the ability feel much nicer to use.

Allow the vials' AoE to be affected by Ability Range, (perhaps up to a cap, if necessary), to allow better status spreading.

Transmutation Probe

Probably Lavos' most controversial ability. A short duration probe that converts pickups into universal pickups and reduces the cooldown of other abilities for each enemy hit while spreading status effects to everything it hits. Sounds good on paper, but the current functionality of this ability is rather limiting. For one, the probe is affected by gravity, meaning it'll drop right down to the ground as soon as I cast it from the air and more than likely get stuck on an enemy or geometry. Coupled with the rather short base range of 6m, the probe has difficulty hitting groups of enemies that are even mildly spread apart. Add in the fact that squadmates tend to kill everything in sight, I'd be lucky to get even 4s shaved off my cooldowns. The pickup conversion is a nice bonus however and does come in a pinch when using weapons with poor ammo economy or when using Archguns as well as providing a little bit of team support.

In cases where I am able to reach a group of enemies without my team obliterating them, Transmutation Probe is very good at spreading status effects and setting up for a big Catalyze, which begs the question: Should I use it to spread statuses or should I use it to reduce my cooldowns? At the moment, the cooldown reduction feels so underwhelming the the go-to answer is almost always to spread statuses, at least for me. Because I so often find myself unable to get the most out of the probe due to its short range and limited CDR effect, I just use it whenever it's up for statuses, which takes away options away, especially in a team setting. The only time I feel like I have to make this choice is when I'm playing solo missions in Steel Path, which has high enemy concentrations. Even then, casting Catalyze and then following up with Transmutation Probe into a large group usually gives me a lackluster return because the CDR return is so little to begin with.

     Suggestions:

Increase the base zapping range from 6m to 8m. This should help in being able to strike more enemies.

Disable gravity for the probe and allow it to be aimed at any vertical angle, which should help with getting the probe to more desirable and impactful positions.

Allow the CDR effect to proc off hitting the same enemy multiple times, but place a cap on the number of enemies that can be actively reducing cooldowns (like the cap on how many enemies can be actively increasing Saryn's Spore damage). This should alleviate some of the headache of only being able to hit a couple enemies at a time with Transmutation Probe by allowing the ability to get as much benefit from those few targets as possible.

This way Lavos will be able to get better returns from his probe when casting into groups. In team settings, he won't lose as much from only hitting a few enemies due to his teammates consistently clearing everything.

Catalyze

The big nuke. It is capable of some pretty high damage output due to its exponential scaling. It synergizes very well with the rest of Lavos' kit, making use of the multitude of status effects he throws around, but it fails to do its job properly because of something so trivial - elevation. Even after the patch addressing enemies at a slightly different elevation from the Catalyze probes, the ability still misses quite often. This is an ability that is supposed to reward the player for being smart with their elemental combinations and ability usage with a powerful clear, but it just so happens that a few enemies decided to run down a flight of stairs so they're totally safe.

When this ability works and hits targets it feels good. It feels rewarding. But not when it misses for the dumbest of reasons. My only complaint with this ability is its inability to consistently hit enemies at varying elevations.

     Suggestions:

The ability description says it sprays a fiery gel. Let it actually do that! Casting at an elevation should allow the probes to spray a gel that falls down and coats everything below it, applying its damage to all that come into contact. Give it the Mass Vitrify treatment and allow the ability to extend downward. This would single-handedly fix my biggest gripe with Catalyze.

Closing Thoughts

Reiterating what I said earlier, Lavos is definitely fun and strong, just simply limited by a few mechanical aspects that take away from his otherwise enjoyable gameplay. His launch certainly went a lot smoother than the other frames launched in 2020, starting him off in a good spot. After a few tweaks and changes I think we'll be able to enjoy his unique playstyle without any of the current drawbacks.

 

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Ophidian Bite

Hit box needs work I feel like nothing gets hit for the size of the animation and the amount of range I have packed into him this should hit a large amount of enemies. 

Vial Rush

Need to be able to steer 

TRANSMUTATION PROBE
Gets caught on random crap needs a small amount of course correction. If you fire it into a wall thats understandable but needs to be a bit more forgiving with door jams and barrels and other greebles 

Catalyze
Desperately needs verticality atleast to hit enemies below the drones so can be fired from air to hit enemies  below the plane you activated it from.  

Edited by [DE]Bear
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when you subsume vial rush and use it on other frame , it doesnt pro ice at all

its pretty sad i farmed the event to have a second lavos to subsum it and put my ressource and time for a skill that dont do anything -_-

 

i supose its related to the fact that other warframes dont have status duration stats

 

 

 

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B820K.png

if he were to get changes, for goodness sakes just reduce his catalyze cooldown from 30 to 20 seconds, and for both transmutation probe and ophidian bite to have a 8 second cooldown than a 10 second down. 

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I have a small suggestion about Lavos.
Since he is equipped with vials on his waist, I would like to see some kind of movement when he uses them to mix attributes.
In addition to that, I'd like to have a unique effect for each attribute that would clothe the body. (Something like ephemera)
It's a bit lacking in its current state.

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Two small things I'd suggest about Lavos' 4th ability are the speed at which it disperses is a bit slow and I'd still rework the vertical plane problem. For the first one, and I'm well aware Lavos is more for higher-level stuff, but even there, by the time the probes reach the enemy, a teammate or myself has already killed the enemies, which makes casting the move in the first place silly. Regarding the second, I am glad the devs addressed this already, but I'd still say the vertical plane of effect could be increased even more. Saryn's 4th affects a huge vertical area, and especially given Lavos' 4th is a gas or aerosol-based attack, shouldn't it too have a bigger area-of-effect?

 

Lavos has the potential to be a great warframe, and if anything, I love playing this guy because I feel sincerely like a combat chemist. It's a great feeling, and addressing these issues will make him an amazing option. Kudos to the team for really thinking outside the box with Lavos. Instead of things being nothing but "Crit! Crit! Crit!", Lavos has, if even slightly, made status based attack options a viable option. I'm going into missions with stat-based mods on and it's fun getting to watch my enemies literally melt before me. The best part is getting to choose what they melt from.

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TLDR potent, engaging, and somewhat clunky. Kit is very well designed with a few flaws. 1 could use a little extra functionality at high levels. 2 is amazing fun but some steering would be appreciated. 3 is a unique utility tool that pathing can sometimes mess with. 4 is deadly but the lack of verticality hampers it in open world maps.. Passive’s inability to reset once a combined element is in place can often throw my combos out of whack if I make a mistake.

    Passive: Consuming the element with each cast is the chunkiest part of the kit for me. I struggle to see the benefit of consuming per cast, and the locking of the element until consumption. I often create an unwanted element, and have no choice but to spend one of my cd’s to get another. I’d prefer being able to change the element whenever I want, and keeping that element until I create another, deleting the consumptive nature of the ability entirely.

     1: decent sustain ability that needs a little more spice. Damage is fine against low armor, but becomes negligible against those big boi grineer. In high levels, that narrows its functionally to a heal, but with the cool down, that heal can be somewhat unreliable and I found myself resorting to operator. Opening enemies up to finishers is nice, but isn’t very sinergetic with his kit.

Possible changes: 

    -Give the ability two charges,to have that heal on hand more often. Have the ability reduce the targets armor by a flat percentage (30-40% would be my armchair dev values). Or, have the ability reset the duration on all status’s effecting the target, giving you more time to proc your bigger combos. 

    -Attack “detonates” the vials from vial rush, causing their statuses to spread across a wider area

    -Move the cooldown reduction functionally to the whip, opening up the 3 to be a longer lasting ability.

2 My favorite part of the kit, but a lean mechanique would be appreciated. A slight misjudgement of trajectory can have you stuck on a doorframe.

    3. Effective, but the probe has a tendency to stick on terrain. Seems strange that all the effort on a model and the ability lasts less than ten seconds. Perhaps a future augment will allow us to keep it around or swapping out the cd to the 1 as mentioned earlier.

    4. The first change helped a lot with the potency, but the verticality is still lacking in open world maps, especially where terrain is steep. Have it drop a vial every couple meters, and have those vials also be detonatable by the 1. Additiona

   

Edited by [DE]Bear
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