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Orphix Venom: Hotfix 29.6.1


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2 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Two?

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I mean I can get more if you'd like?

You are either hitting enemies, or not aiming at enemies in all of those clips. Why are you complaining? Show me a video of you having the reticle pointed at an enemy that doesn't proc, and I might take you seriously.

I have a usage rate of Khora similar to both of you and I freaked out at first too when I read the patch notes. But seriously, the change just isn't as bad as you are making it out to be. The worst part of it was that it was a surprise.

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1 hour ago, _Tormex_ said:

You are either hitting enemies, or not aiming at enemies in all of those clips. Why are you complaining? Show me a video of you having the reticle pointed at an enemy that doesn't proc, and I might take you seriously.

Do you try and land headshots with a Lenz? Of course not, it's a splash weapon. You aim at the middle of a group or on a solid surface so your shot doesn't whiff over your target's shoulder and do nothing. That's what the two years I've used her have taught me to do: aim at solid surfaces or in the middle of groups. For example, a clip from my MR30 test:

giphy.gif

Giphy seems to have sped it up a little, but I hope it gives you an idea. Stay in the air, stay mobile, spam Whipclaw, and use your other abilities where appropriate. A lot of my whips are fast and loose, because that's the way I've come to play her. It might be a different playstyle than yours, but it's perfectly valid and it's severely impacted by the added LoS constantly failing. Just because you don't use Whipclaw the way I do doesn't mean my problems aren't valid. There was another guy claiming Khora was fine after the LoS and that nothing was wrong, and he was using Strangledome which skips the bloody LoS anyways!

Here's a mission I literally just ran. You can see my new Cedo so you know it's fresh.

The first failure was only 36 seconds into the recording:

giphy.gif

I aimed at the top of the stairs to hit the camera and the Crewman. But the top step blocked LoS and the Crewman was unharmed. And yes, I've got the max range on Whipclaw. That Crewman was well within my strike zone and should have died on the first hit. This is a technical failure. Technically, LoS was blocked. But from a gameplay perspective I was looking right at the dude when Whipclaw exploded. From my perspective and expectations, I should have hit. This is what maybe a third of failures look like.

The second failure happened only 24 seconds later. My Whipclaw was eaten by some stairs.

giphy.gif

Here's a still, is this aim good enough for flying through the air sideways? I think I'm pretty close for a quick decision!

52IbvFv.png

And remember, my playstyle has taught me to aim for feet, which I've gotten very good at. I do it without even thinking! I can't unwire this, and I shouldn't have to!

And now that I look back at it, this shot would have been pretty impressive if it actually connected. If you notice in the gif I precast Whipclaw a split second before the Moa is even visible; I know that  there's *something* there from my minimap and queue up a whip while airborne. Then I land that sucker right between the wall and the little railing, and despite not knowing exactly where or even what my target was I still got my crosshair to exactly where I wanted the explosion to go.

The third failure was me messing around with that same Moa to get a nice, crisp example of what's so busted:

giphy.gif

"Nothing is wrong with Whipclaw."

Here's what I'd expect to happen, which happened a second later. Just so we're clear that this is an inconsistent problem:

giphy.gif

Fourth failure, some 20 seconds later:

giphy.gif

The railing blocks the Whipclaw from hitting the Moa. Another technical failure. Normally I'd have just aimed at the Moa and killed it through the railing, but even after compensating for what I know would now be a failed hit the attack still fails. The Whipclaw originated from the raised walkway and should have taken the Moa's head off.

Fifth failure, about a minute later. Hit the far wall, kill the camera. Hit the Crewman, ???

giphy.gif

Another still so we can see just wtf is the problem:

gfW7UM0.png

I'm sucking his toes man, this should have hit!

Sixth failure, blink and you'll miss it:

giphy.gif

I guess that little rectangular floor detail ate the Whipclaw, idk. You can even see when the miss registered in my head because I pull my mouse and do a double-take. I was already jumping right to continue on to some other enemies but then ??? and I pull back.

6 LoS failures in 3:42 is 6 failures too many. If you've got a playstyle that's not impacted by the LoS, then great! I'm happy for you! But - and excuse my French - my S#&$ is #*!%ed.

Edited by PublikDomain
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23 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Do you try and land headshots with a Lenz? Of course not, it's a splash weapon. You aim at the middle of a group or on a solid surface so your shot doesn't whiff over your target's shoulder and do nothing. That's what the two years I've used her have taught me to do: aim at solid surfaces or in the middle of groups. For example, a clip from my MR30 test:

giphy.gif

Giphy seems to have sped it up a little, but I hope it gives you an idea. Stay in the air, stay mobile, spam Whipclaw, and use your other abilities where appropriate. A lot of my whips are fast and loose, because that's the way I've come to play her. It might be a different playstyle than yours, but it's perfectly valid and it's severely impacted by the added LoS constantly failing. Just because you don't use Whipclaw the way I do doesn't mean my problems aren't valid. There was another guy claiming Khora was fine after the LoS and that nothing was wrong, and he was using Strangledome which skips the bloody LoS anyways!

Here's a mission I literally just ran. You can see my new Cedo so you know it's fresh.

The first failure was only 36 seconds into the recording:

giphy.gif

I aimed at the top of the stairs to hit the camera and the Crewman. But the top step blocked LoS and the Crewman was unharmed. And yes, I've got the max range on Whipclaw. That Crewman was well within my strike zone and should have died on the first hit. This is a technical failure. Technically, LoS was blocked. But from a gameplay perspective I was looking right at the dude when Whipclaw exploded. From my perspective and expectations, I should have hit. This is what maybe a third of failures look like.

The second failure happened only 24 seconds later. My Whipclaw was eaten by some stairs.

giphy.gif

Here's a still, is this aim good enough for flying through the air sideways? I think I'm pretty close for a quick decision!

52IbvFv.png

The third failure was me messing around with that same Moa to get a nice, crisp example of what's so busted:

giphy.gif

"Nothing is wrong with Whipclaw."

Here's what I'd expect to happen, which happened a second later. Just so we're clear that this is an inconsistent problem:

giphy.gif

Fourth failure, some 20 seconds later:

giphy.gif

The railing blocks the Whipclaw from hitting the Moa. Another technical failure. Normally I'd have just aimed at the Moa and killed it through the railing, but even after compensating for what I know would now be a failed hit the attack still fails. The Whipclaw originated from the raised walkway and should have taken the Moa's head off.

Fifth failure, about a minute later. Hit the far wall, kill the camera. Hit the Crewman, ???

giphy.gif

Another still so we can see just wtf is the problem:

gfW7UM0.png

I'm sucking his toes man, this should have hit!

Sixth failure, blink and you'll miss it:

giphy.gif

I guess that little rectangular floor detail ate the Whipclaw, idk.

6 LoS failures in 3:42 is 6 failures too many. If you've got a playstyle that's not impacted by the LoS, then great! I'm happy for you! But - and excuse my French - my S#&$ is #*!%ed.

I just realized how rediculously high 880k kills is. That's kinda mindblowingly high. Anyways, it seems like some of the issues might stem from the system doing the LoS check only at the moment of cast and not at the moment of the strike. I have noticed that I am able to hit enemies that leave my LoS if they were in it at the time of casting when that obscure case happens, so that supports the check being at time of cast. And it seems like you try to be more efficient time-wise with your whipclaw than I am, and waiting a few milliseconds before casting might improve your luck (since it gives the game more of a chance to make the LoS check).

 

Did you not experience some of these reliability issues with whipclaw before the update though? I used to have a ton of issues when I first started using khora, and that's part of the reason why I tend to be overcautious and aim at enemies with a clear LoS in the middle of my screen most of the time. I don't know how many of those issues can be attributed to one update is what I am trying to say.

 

From the Wiki: "All enemies within line of sight of the explosion receive 200 / 225 / 250 / 300 base damage"

To an extent, you seem to be expecting a LoS from Khora to be enough to damage things, but the LoS is from the explosion point. I think mixing both might improve the ability since then the two checks might be able to help limit inconsistencies.

 

I'm too tired to think to much about this, so that response is probably rambley and only partially accurate. Pretty sure I contradicted myself at least once.

Here's my thoughts about your different gifs. You were thorough in you response and I appreciate that. The 5th example was ridiculous, I didn't know that crewman could wear whipclaw absorbing shoes lol. And either I blinked for the 6th one or it was too small. It looked like you hit everything fine. The gifs are really small. I personally wouldn't have even tried the first two cause I would've expected them to fail, and the 4th one you hit the ground in a place that didn't seem to have LoS to the MOA, but the picture was small so idk. The third one could go either way in my mind and apparently the game agreed lol

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2 hours ago, Lokanahta said:

Has anyone run into a bug where you can't exit your mech via operator or warframe, or use any abilities until your mech dies and then your warframe dies?

If anyone has any insight into fixing this problem, please do tell! I've had to kill my mech and warframe 4-5 times already to fix this bug.

Yes had it a few times last night and I was the host so it made it hard, I was the speedy operator moving around taking out nodes far away while the other two stayed to pop the bubble when it opened up. :(

2 hours ago, _Tormex_ said:

As a Khora main, plz stop. If you actually went and played khora you'd see that there isn't an issue, and if you have an issue litereally all you need to do is press 2. I have played ~30 hours of khora since the update and have had no issues using whipclaw.

Then you may not be noticing it but others are, me included.

1 hour ago, _Tormex_ said:

Two gifs for a poster don't equal actual in-game responsiveness, especially when the person using the ability can't seem to aim properly.

You don't have to aim correctly using Strangledome, yet the effect sometimes doesn't move to the others in the Dome, now and then it's just like the whip was doing an air guitar fling and a miss.

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Two?

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I mean I can get more if you'd like?

Editing these things takes way longer than it does to find examples ingame, but fine. I will do my duty and edit more examples for you so you can see that you're wrong.

Agree editing takes way to long when all we want to do is be in-game murdering anything that moves and leaving no witnesses. :devil:

1 hour ago, _Tormex_ said:

You are either hitting enemies, or not aiming at enemies in all of those clips. Why are you complaining? Show me a video of you having the reticle pointed at an enemy that doesn't proc, and I might take you seriously.

I have a usage rate of Khora similar to both of you and I freaked out at first too when I read the patch notes. But seriously, the change just isn't as bad as you are making it out to be. The worst part of it was that it was a surprise.

You bring usage rate into the convo, you have used Khora 23.4% with 48,036 kills. I have Used Khora 6.0% with 87,554 kills, PublikDomain has used Khora with only 18.4% with (dude go outside more lol) 882,857 kills, I guess we are more efficient killers. :tongue:


Seriously though some players are having trouble, some may not or not notice it from their normal gameplay, hitting 2 is not the be all and end all, Khora has other skills which are really useful, this change was to stop macro farmers but it just hurts us player who play legit with her.

edit:
Tormex you posted I hadn't noticed but that's life. :)

Edited by Slayer-.
edit: + a typo
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6 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

Seriously though some players are having trouble, some may not or not notice it from their normal gameplay, hitting 2 is not the be all and end all, Khora has other skills which are really useful, this change was to stop macro farmers but it just hurts us player who play legit with her.

Most of what you said is fair I think, but I'm not saying 2 is the end all be all. I am trying to say that her 1 shouldn't be the end all be all and that using 2 is a great way to minimize the possibility of a missed whipclaw while also doubling your damage.

 

Edit: And yeah I didn't really start building Khora with damage dealing builds until about halfway through that time. When I first got her, I mostly used her for interception mission CC and farming. I mostly meant that all of us have used khora the most out of all our warframes.

Edited by _Tormex_
Yeah the forum can take its sweet time updating lol
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8 minutes ago, _Tormex_ said:

Most of what you said is fair I think, but I'm not saying 2 is the end all be all. I am trying to say that her 1 shouldn't be the end all be all and that using 2 is a great way to minimize the possibility of a missed whipclaw while also doubling your damage.

Yeah 2 is great CC in missions (lets other players who can't aim guns hit something) 4 in interception is awesome at stopping enemies from capping a point, 3 is good for trolling your Clanmate buddies especially if they don't like a cat sniffing their butt.

Khora is just an all round great frame imo.
I just hate when a frame gets nerfed because on a minority group being tools.

Edited by Slayer-.
damn typos, probably more but I don't care, getting some food.
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19 minutes ago, _Tormex_ said:

I just realized how rediculously high 880k kills is. That's kinda mindblowingly high.

It's pretty high. Berzerkules has like 1.6 million, that dude makes me look like a chump.

19 minutes ago, _Tormex_ said:

Anyways, it seems like some of the issues might stem from the system doing the LoS check only at the moment of cast and not at the moment of the strike.

From what I can tell, LoS is based on wherever in the world Whipclaw hits. Since Whipclaw does a raycast/trace/whatever DE calls it internally, the origin is more or less touching the surface it hits. This means that whatever polygon you hit always blocks half of the sphere - I've got examples illustrating this in my bug report. Because Warframe's level geometry is really dense and high detailed, there are a lot of little cracks and edges and bits of collision things can get stuck on. This comes up all over the place, like for example jumping upwards and running into the lip of the ledge. So the Moa by the stairs failed because my Whipclaw went into the stairs geometry, which is basically a box. Note that the crate still gets hit, because only enemies check LoS.

19 minutes ago, _Tormex_ said:

Did you not experience some of these reliability issues with whipclaw before the update though?

Nope, not at all. I've heard some people say that there were hit registration issues, but I've never experienced any. When she was first released she definitely had trouble hitting targets, and DE responded by letting Whipclaw's explosion scale with Range mods. Since then I've always run max range so it's been smooth sailing. I'm not really sure what to attribute those claims to since I've never experienced them. And I do mean never, if I experienced hit issues regularly my playstyle never would have evolved the way it did.

19 minutes ago, _Tormex_ said:

To an extent, you seem to be expecting a LoS from Khora to be enough to damage things, but the LoS is from the explosion point. I think mixing both might improve the ability since then the two checks might be able to help limit inconsistencies.

There are a few ways to improve the LoS, but really I just want it gone. No matter how it gets changed, at the end of the day there will always be times when you put a Whipclaw where you want it to go and nothing happens, and that feels really bad. It also doesn't really address Khora's power level and ease-of-use the way the LoS check seems to have intended, since she still hits just as hard and with just as much coverage - just there's sometimes some wonk. I'd really prefer the LoS to be replaced with a damage falloff instead. It'd satisfy this nerf and keep her out of the nerf-hammer's way for the near future, and I honestly think it'd improve her general gameplay.

ETA: And to be really clear, I'm a hardcore Khora main fully in the "Khora could use a little nerf" camp. I just think the LoS is the wrong way to nerf her. It's not "Whipclaw now has self-stagger" levels of completely terrible design decisions, but it's only one step short.

19 minutes ago, _Tormex_ said:

The gifs are really small.

I'm not a video editor so my recordings are downscaled and then downscaled again when Giphy takes them. Not much I can do about that sadly :(

Edited by PublikDomain
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2 minutes ago, _Tormex_ said:

I just realized how rediculously high 880k kills is. That's kinda mindblowingly high. Anyways, it seems like some of the issues might stem from the system doing the LoS check only at the moment of cast and not at the moment of the strike. I have noticed that I am able to hit enemies that leave my LoS if they were in it at the time of casting when that obscure case happens, so that supports the check being at time of cast. And it seems like you try to be more efficient time-wise with your whipclaw than I am, and waiting a few milliseconds before casting might improve your luck (since it gives the game more of a chance to make the LoS check).

 

Did you not experience some of these reliability issues with whipclaw before the update though? I used to have a ton of issues when I first started using khora, and that's part of the reason why I tend to be overcautious and aim at enemies with a clear LoS in the middle of my screen most of the time. I don't know how many of those issues can be attributed to one update is what I am trying to say.

 

From the Wiki: "All enemies within line of sight of the explosion receive 200 / 225 / 250 / 300 base damage"

To an extent, you seem to be expecting a LoS from Khora to be enough to damage things, but the LoS is from the explosion point. I think mixing both might improve the ability since then the two checks might be able to help limit inconsistencies.

 

I'm too tired to think to much about this, so that response is probably rambley and only partially accurate. Pretty sure I contradicted myself at least once.

Here's my thoughts about your different gifs. You were thorough in you response and I appreciate that. The 5th example was ridiculous, I didn't know that crewman could wear whipclaw absorbing shoes lol. And either I blinked for the 6th one or it was too small. It looked like you hit everything fine. The gifs are really small. I personally wouldn't have even tried the first two cause I would've expected them to fail, and the 4th one you hit the ground in a place that didn't seem to have LoS to the MOA, but the picture was small so idk. The third one could go either way in my mind and apparently the game agreed lol

 

So, non-Khora main.  I read the blob of text provided....and think you need some sleep.

 

Conclusion 1, the whip is LoS checked at time of cast.  The explosion is then checked for LoS to determine the action.

-Invalid.  See above where crewman got to avoid the damage from the camera death.

 

Conclusion 2, the whip is LoS.  The Explosion is then checked against the same LoS.

-Invalid due to stupidity.  Imagine standing behind a wall, and having your friend explode next to you, but the explosion skips you because the explosion came from a different direction.  This sounds similar to the broken mechanics, but I cannot personally confirm.  It also doesn't sound like the only issue with whip actually working.

 

 

So....what's the likely shenanigans being pulled here?  Well, based upon the frustrations of more vocal Khora players the LoS is busted, or otherwise incorrect.  The fix to make Khora less brokenly powerful is in fact broken, and is effectively damaging how people play.  The solution is simple, revert the change until you get a better one.  Heck, since you squeezed this garbage in after the test server, it isn't really a problem to squeeze it back out and finish baking it.  What would it even do to hurt the game?

To that end, why was Khora changed?  Steel Essence farms.  DE nuked those farms from orbit, so it'd now functionally only offer resource or affinity farming....or resources that make no sense to farm on the Steel Path.  DE pulled the same crap they did with Scarlet Spear again, permanently nerfing a frame because their experimental game mode was broken by an interaction that it was allowed to do.  Why hello there Limbo.  

I get defending DE, as this theoretically is a decision that is balancing Khora better.  The issue is theoretically assumes they didn't bork anything.  Let me remind you that in the last month they've screwed up amber ayatan star spawning, Necramech affinity earning multiple times, archweapon affinity earning, invisible walls were added to Venus, and many other things that I cannot be bothered to list.  DE's track record with delivering good things is severely limited.  Maybe instead of defending their decisions as somebody else not accepting change, listen to where they are coming from.  DE kinda sucks at realizing their vision, and the consistency of this game is releasing early alpha content and then patching later to get to pre-beta stability.

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12 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

PublikDomain has used Khora with only 18.4% with (dude go outside more lol) 882,857 kills,

I love how you say this while having ~twice as many in game hours lol.

 

4 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

Khora is just and all round great frame imo.

This is why she's my favorite! I have about 4 different build that I used to use on a regular basis, but its dropped to 3 more recently since I got new warframes.

 

5 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Since then I've always run max range so it's been smooth sailing.

Oh yeah that's what I changed. It's kinda annoying that 190%+ rage is basically a requirement for all builds where whipclaw will be used in any capacity.

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I somehow got my warframe bugged by reviving maybe inside the "no warframe circle" (my waframe slid inside the circle after it got knocked out by some moas)  and it made my warframe move around inside the circle and can still use my weapons too, along with invincibility.

Let me just say the "bug" made the event like a joke. I just 1-2 heavy attacked the Orphix with the Redeemer until the 36th kill and made the event less tedious and fun dare I say.

 

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4 hours ago, lhardy said:

More proofs with archguns level bugged. In one mission I archived the level 25. My profile stadistics shows that, but my archgun is still level 17 on my inventory.

I0Xn4Pp.jpgOdFujvc.jpg

Nice to see that I'm not the only one who's frame rate is crap while in the orbiter. 

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hace 4 horas, Old_Fogie dijo:

Nice to see that I'm not the only one who's frame rate is crap while in the orbiter. 

Well, while I'm in the orbiter, except from mod section, my game goes better than normal. I normaly plays at rate 20-30 fps, on orbiter I get around 31.

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So basically, your plan is to take away warframes, which, by the way, in case you forgot dear devs, is the very essence, Hek, the very name of your game, to instead force us to play with 2 or 3 pieces of quite frankly underwhelming and unpolished new gimmicky gear, in a rather... stingy and extremely repetitive event? Could you explain the reasoning here, pretty please?

Listen guys, I get you trying to push your latest new toys on us in the hope we'll like them, especially after the fiasco that was Railjack, but forcing our hand is really not in either your or our interest. You're just going to disgust many players even faster than you already were when we didn't have to use the damn stuff. Try to learn from your repeated mistakes, instead of repeating said mistakes again and again like that, maybe? Give us some good incentives to play the parts of Warframe that have so far been left abandoned by most of the community. Don't force us to. That won't work. And at the very least finish developing and polishing Necramechs before using them like this, and give the community a fair amount of time to ease into them instead of shoving them down our throats for Lotus' sake...

Oh and your event is buggy and clunky as Hek. That is also a problem dear devs. On top of all the other problems I mean. Other than that, everything's dandy. Merry Christmas and a happy new Year to you!

Edited by Marthrym
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10 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Actually went and played Khora? Bro I have 880k+ kills with her, I think I know the frame.

The LoS added to Whipclaw is a giant pain in the ass, and it remains a giant pain in the ass.

The LoS was a pain in the ass at times even before the change. Now it's just pure frustration and torture. Whoever okayed this change either did it to troll or straight up has never played the Warframe.

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I have no idea how to paste an screen shot..........but i have it as evidence incase needed
Anyways
 My warframe died in zone because i parked it there and grinner killed it, my team mate revived me and then i got stuck there. As solo dps of the team we were at orphix number 34 i could not move thus inevitably we lost just by 3 orphix.
They left squad i still couldn't be force extracted so as a result i had to abort lost all weapon xp and ofc around 1.5k+ phasic cells,

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I was wondering whose idea it is to have the event set in corpus ship where places were narrow/tight for mech to move around. it feels very clunky to navigate around the tileset. The mission feels like Scarlet 2.0 lol... introducing 3 new enemies is nice but unfortunate that they're being overshadowed by the mech and orphix

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