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Why does game still have crash permanent loot loss in 2020?


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It's not a beta anymore. Neither a small niche game.
Support is useless when at the end of a long grind gamer just crashes. They don't restore anything.
Why is loot still not saved until the proper end of the mission? Shouldn't it save every time you have some progress - like end of a wave, round or killing some target at least?

 

Yet again, at the end of a long endurance run, game closed. No rewards, no score, no loot. Ruining your mood and desire to play for days.

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The answer is simple you crashed and that caused you to fail the mission, and when you fail a mission in this game you get no rewards. 

4 minutes ago, Ketec said:

Shouldn't it save every time you have some progress - like end of a wave, round or killing some target at least?

Having this in place defeats the entire point of the risk/versus reward system. It would be like "I don't think we can handle another 5 but screw it we have Nothing to lose"

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It doesn't have to  give it to the player as a reward - but persist it so it is not permanently lost on code failures.

This is 101 of data  persistence - you don't rely on it being somewhere in memory for hours and  then hope it actually saves in the end and nothing happens.
You need to regularly backup/store your data or sync it to ensure you have a way to recover it.

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2 minutes ago, Ketec said:

It doesn't have to  give it to the player as a reward - but persist it so it is not permanently lost on code failures.

This is 101 of data  persistence - you don't rely on it being somewhere in memory for hours and  then hope it actually saves in the end and nothing happens.
You need to regularly backup/store your data or sync it to ensure you have a way to recover it.

Now that I will agree with there is no reason that a player should no be able to reconnect to their previous gaming session if they reconnect in at least a certain period of time, the issue would be how would the game handle stuff like life support and defense objectives while the player is reconnecting. DE would have to find a way to ensure that it could not be turned into a alt/F4 pause button exploit.   

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If solo - it could restart from the last objective (rerun wave 5 for example). Ig party play - it should still offer you  up to the rewards up until last completed step (wave 5 exit or stay for example).
Other game modes got similar step.

And current event - you don't lose anything on "failure" - you can still exit just fine.

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6 hours ago, minininja77 said:

The answer is simple you crashed and that caused you to fail the mission, and when you fail a mission in this game you get no rewards. 

Having this in place defeats the entire point of the risk/versus reward system. It would be like "I don't think we can handle another 5 but screw it we have Nothing to lose"

How the hell is the game crashing the player's fault?  If DE's poor coding screws up that is not a failure on the part of the player.

Even with the point of "it could be exploited" I ask how badly do you really think that would screw things up?

Two things on that:  

First, there is nothing that you could really gain by cancelling out of a mission that would really screw up anything or be exploitable in a big way.  

Secondly, if you make it 3 hours in a survival and then even if you were going to fail past hour 3, you've made it that far, you should keep some of that progress.  The "risk/reward" argument is way overused and tired.  They focus far more on the risk and the punishment than the reward.  The risk of staying an extra round/extra 5 minutes/whatever should be losing what you would have gained that round and maybe the one before it.  There's zero reason for the extra punishment of losing literally everything, especially when the reason you lost is the game screwed up, not you.

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25 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

How the hell is the game crashing the player's fault?  If DE's poor coding screws up that is not a failure on the part of the player.

Even with the point of "it could be exploited" I ask how badly do you really think that would screw things up?

Two things on that:  

First, there is nothing that you could really gain by cancelling out of a mission that would really screw up anything or be exploitable in a big way.  

Secondly, if you make it 3 hours in a survival and then even if you were going to fail past hour 3, you've made it that far, you should keep some of that progress.  The "risk/reward" argument is way overused and tired.  They focus far more on the risk and the punishment than the reward.  The risk of staying an extra round/extra 5 minutes/whatever should be losing what you would have gained that round and maybe the one before it.  There's zero reason for the extra punishment of losing literally everything, especially when the reason you lost is the game screwed up, not you.

Just gonna add to chubby point.

Um failing a mission becomes less and less a thing as the years go on. We can sit in steel path survival and go into the 1000s and only leaving when we legit need to stop due to the time ( trust me you do 8 odd hours without moving it flippin hurts). 

You could see where i am going with this. Point is OP is correct the fact is not having any loot saves during missions is really silly. Luckily i have seen first hand that when we did a really long relic run that i received mail giving me all my prime pieces buuuut i didn't get any of the loot i had earned in the mission soooo that was annoying as usual.

Edited by (PSN)Mofojokers
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7 hours ago, Ketec said:

It's not a beta anymore

Yes it is. The beta agreement is right there on the launcher when you install the game, and you have to accept it before it'll even start downloading the game proper.

Edited by Corvid
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On 2020-12-20 at 11:32 AM, Corvid said:

Yes it is. The beta agreement is right there on the launcher when you install the game, and you have to accept it before it'll even start downloading the game proper.

You mean the one I accepted 6 years ago?


But the loot saving doesn't have to mean saving it for the player as a reward.
Rather a way to have a backup of the data in case of failures/game crashes.

There is nothing stopping  the code from still verifying the results before it is actually awarded to the player.

In many cases the failures/loss happens at the end of the mission. If you lose connection and the mission is still in progress - many times it prompts you to rejoin.

But that is not possible if the mission is over or you were the host / solo.


For example I was the host in the event endurance run. The 33rd target bugged out and didn't reveal core.  I got killed  in operator form and respawned inside my warframe.
Warframe was at the edge of the interference and glitched out - permanently bleeding out, could not revive. 
Another one revived me - but I was still stuck, immortal and couldn't move.
Everyone else left and claimed rewards. Moments after my game closed - showing me the crash webpage.
All progress lost - even the score didn't register.

Had there been some form of backup for data - it would still have allowed me to claim the rewards - or continue run/exit.

Edited by Ketec
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35 minutes ago, Ketec said:

You mean the one I accepted 6 years ago?

Yes. The point is that it still applies today, so any argument predicated on the idea that the game "isn't a beta anymore" isn't going to work.

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Well a checkpoint system like Bounties wouldn't hurt. Sometime things happen outside of the player's control. Can you imagine you got that item you wanted only for the game to "haha no i crash no loot for you" losing your hard earned reward? That will be frustating.

At the very least rotation reward should be kept on a sudden game close. Relic drops already have this protection.

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1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

Well a checkpoint system like Bounties wouldn't hurt. Sometime things happen outside of the player's control. Can you imagine you got that item you wanted only for the game to "haha no i crash no loot for you" losing your hard earned reward? That will be frustating.

At the very least rotation reward should be kept on a sudden game close. Relic drops already have this protection.

If it were a rare item, contact support with you ee log. That's how I got my tempo royale when it was a 300p stance mod. Just be humble and show the proof it dropped.

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Considering in other online games I'm able to pour gasoline into my console and set it on fire, or just turn it off midgame while losing not a single percent of loot, I agree. It's getting tiring, if they don't wanna make progress with servers, then the least they can do is use some to synchronize our loot with the host on a regular basis (or when playing solo with us) so we at least don't lose our S#&$. Honestly unacceptable that this is still a thing after the game being 8 years in development.

Edited by (XBOX)TyeGoo
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2 hours ago, Deadoon said:

If it were a rare item, contact support with you ee log. That's how I got my tempo royale when it was a 300p stance mod. Just be humble and show the proof it dropped.

The log actually has no info about the loot. In this case you knew what you looted specifically so they opted to restore this 1 item.

 

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4 hours ago, Ketec said:

The log actually has no info about the loot. In this case you knew what you looted specifically so they opted to restore this 1 item.

 

Partially correct, it has the appearance of the mod card appear, as well as other pop up images. I still have my EE log of that time.
 

Quote

20969.031 Sys [Info]: Spot-building /Lotus/Interface/Cards/Images/Stances/TempoRoyale.png
20969.031 Sys [Info]: Spot-loading /Lotus/Interface/Cards/Images/Stances/TempoRoyale.png

 

Edited by Deadoon
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10 hours ago, Deadoon said:

If it were a rare item, contact support with you ee log. That's how I got my tempo royale when it was a 300p stance mod. Just be humble and show the proof it dropped.

Problem is that support can only restore one item. Which can be annoying if you got more than one item you need.

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The game crashed like 3 times in almost 7 years.

Sure, the code might not be the most stable in the game history, but if you have a problem with crashes there might be something on your end or host's end that doesnt work. Being it the internet connection or the pc itself.
I honestly dont know... and i hate the comments like "works fine for me", but really cant be just luck if i experienced a handful of crashes in years and thousands of hours and for some people is a recurring problem.

Not that i am against any kind of failsafe system, that would be fine for everybody and alleviate the crashing issues for those people that experience it on a regular basis

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1 hour ago, Ketec said:

There are many ways to improve this on the software side, which is why losing  the progress like that annoys me - knowing this can be improved but hasn't been for years.

Everything you said is absolutely correct. Losing everything during long endurance missions is bad for the players... it's due to how they designed the game to be decentralized (which makes it economical, but it's still bad for the players).

DE knows this. We know DE know this because they added support for recovering otherwise lost rewards from cracked relics (Ordis sends them to you over mail). They added support for saving your bounty rewards directly to your inventory. They added a way to rejoin a squad and regain some of what you lost (but it only works if you had a squad, not solo).

Like they already do with bounties, I think they should transfer your rotation rewards directly to inventory... especially for ultra long endurance missions. If you haven't failed the mission after 1+ hour, I think you deserve to keep some of your loot even if you were to fail!

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Gerade eben schrieb nslay:

Everything you said is absolutely correct. Losing everything during long endurance missions is bad for the players... it's due to how they designed the game to be decentralized (which makes it economical, but it's still bad for the players).

DE knows this. We know DE know this because they added support for recovering otherwise lost rewards from cracked relics (Ordis sends them to you over mail). They added support for saving your bounty rewards directly to your inventory. They added a way to rejoin a squad and regain some of what you lost (but it only works if you had a squad, not solo).

Like they already do with bounties, I think they should transfer your rotation rewards directly to inventory... especially for ultra long endurance missions. If you haven't failed the mission after 1+ hour, I think you deserve to keep some of your loot even if you were to fail!

that is also optimal and that is how it is solved in many games. state is saved every 5-10 minutes and loot, exp etc. are not lost.
but apparently devs are struggling with this. otherwise it would be fully implemented long ago. because now it's very humble. for example: if host leaves and i am selected as host, it means good night for at least one player and he ends up in the menu ...

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On 2020-12-20 at 4:03 AM, Ketec said:

It's not a beta anymore. Neither a small niche game.
Support is useless when at the end of a long grind gamer just crashes. They don't restore anything.
Why is loot still not saved until the proper end of the mission? Shouldn't it save every time you have some progress - like end of a wave, round or killing some target at least?

 

Yet again, at the end of a long endurance run, game closed. No rewards, no score, no loot. Ruining your mood and desire to play for days.

Simple. DE doesn't have any reason to update it, and that means that they can save money. "But it makes it less enjoyable for the players?" Player enjoyment is not even on the list of important thing to remember when developing games. Especially true in "game as a service" games. Counter intuitive? Indeed.

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My guess is that all your loot is stored in instance durring the mission , only at the end of mission your account data is updated sence warframe runs on p2p and not dedicated servers .

If game crashes data is wiped .

Edited by bad4youLT
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Agreed here, 

2 hours ago, (PSN)Yggranya said:

Simple. DE doesn't have any reason to update it, and that means that they can save money. "But it makes it less enjoyable for the players?" Player enjoyment is not even on the list of important thing to remember when developing games. Especially true in "game as a service" games. Counter intuitive? Indeed.

If it means the Devs can save money they wont change a thing at all if it means they can dish out new content people don't want to play or have interest in.

they have to choose between fixing bugs or making new content, they chose making new content over fixing bugs.

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On 2020-12-20 at 4:03 AM, Ketec said:

It's not a beta anymore. Neither a small niche game.
Support is useless when at the end of a long grind gamer just crashes. They don't restore anything.
Why is loot still not saved until the proper end of the mission? Shouldn't it save every time you have some progress - like end of a wave, round or killing some target at least?

 

Yet again, at the end of a long endurance run, game closed. No rewards, no score, no loot. Ruining your mood and desire to play for days.

Because the mail system is good for nothing on purpose .

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