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Melee master race


B4HEK

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3 часа назад, (PSN)Madurai-Prime сказал:

Enemy armour was already nerfed. 

Ah sh*t, here we go again...

Do you know that armor scales with mob`s level? At 100+ Grineer units get 95% damage reduction + all damage which you deal to them is obligated by total number of their armor... It means, that even if you strip their armor to 5% with corrosive and fire, your damage still would be penalized, because at higher levels there are MILLIONS of armor even on trash mobs. The only way to completely delete armor from mobs without abilities is shattering impact, but guess what? IT IS MELEE MOD!

Hell, even at trash levels like 30-40 there is already huge difference in damage between melee and firearms...

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3 часа назад, (PSN)Madurai-Prime сказал:

Most players aren't constantly fighting enemies that are level 1000 and above, so we don't really need to balance weapons around that level....

ALSO, the main point of my topic was, that firearms on their own are NOT viable at HIGHER levels.

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42 minutes ago, B4HEK said:

Ah sh*t, here we go again...

Do you know that armor scales with mob`s level? At 100+ Grineer units get 95% damage reduction + all damage which you deal to them is obligated by total number of their armor... It means, that even if you strip their armor to 5% with corrosive and fire, your damage still would be penalized, because at higher levels there are MILLIONS of armor even on trash mobs. The only way to completely delete armor from mobs without abilities is shattering impact, but guess what? IT IS MELEE MOD!

Hell, even at trash levels like 30-40 there is already huge difference in damage between melee and firearms...

Yea.....that's the point....you're fighting a higher tier of enemy, it's gonna be stronger, and you're obviously supposed to use more than a gun by itself, did you know you can simultaneously use guns with warframe abilities? Ever heard of Harrow? Did you know you have many ways of weakening your enemies and/or strengthening the guns you have with the many tools available? 

"A max rank  Augur Secrets will put your Ability Strength at 124%, stripping defences by 99%. This allows you to significantly weaken enemy defences, whilst still benefitting from the armor/shield class damage bonuses."

That's an excerpt from Nyx's Psychic Bolts, which completely strips armor, by the way.

If you weren't aware, you actually get bonus damge for using elements weak to the armor you're fighting. That's radiation for alloy (Heavy grineer and corrupted units), and corrosive for ferrite armor (also grineer and corrupted). You can also pile viral on one of those as well. Any capable player can achieve having those 3 statuses across 2 guns and having a warframe with 4 abilities to supplement in debuffing or buffing, which is used to increase damage.

Even assuming a player doesn't have one of the many weapon damage increasing arcanes to use, there are currently like 15ish frames that strip armor, with another 2 or 3 that makes enemies "vulnerable to more damage" like Nezhas Chakram and Novas 4. 

If you see a difference between guns and melee at level 30 you are an ungeared player and simply need more time and experience in the game.

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4 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Enemy armour was already nerfed. 

Maybe try stripping the armor with corrosive and/or one of the many warframe abilities specifically made to lower enemy defenses? Or identifying and targeting enemy units that give their allies resistances like some eximus units? 

Most players aren't constantly fighting enemies that are level 1000 and above, so we don't really need to balance weapons around that level....

Hey, this is not hello kitty I am playing Warframe for the first time. What you said is just flat out irrelevant as well, cuz it does not refute that melee weapons deal significantly higher damage than ranged weapons. And majority of the frames do not have armor strip, it is not even remotely relevant to the discussion. Cuz guess what? It works for melee weapons too.

And you say armour scaling was reduced. Do you know how much armor does a level 150 gunner has on SP? Do you know this is lowest level on MoT for gunners?

Outside of the game forcing you to use ranged weapons, ranged weapons are irrelevant outside of applying status or farming low level trash.

 

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25 минут назад, (PSN)Madurai-Prime сказал:

you're obviously supposed to use more than a gun by itself

 

1 час назад, B4HEK сказал:

the main point of my topic was, that firearms on their own are NOT viable at HIGHER levels.

...

You know that any melee can kill 9999 enemy faster than any gun without buffs and abilities?

AlSO, on 9999 lvls of mobs 1% of armor still means 95% DR...

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29 минут назад, (PSN)Madurai-Prime сказал:

If you see a difference between guns and melee at level 30 you are an ungeared player and simply need more time and experience in the game.

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I am obviously ungeared and unexperienced...

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40 минут назад, (PSN)thegarada сказал:

Outside of the game forcing you to use ranged weapons,

By the way, ranged weapons aren`t really needed to play game... I can easily complete any objective by using single skana.

Exception is Orphix Venom, which just doesn`t allow you to play game as you like.

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25 minutes ago, B4HEK said:

You know that any melee can kill 9999 enemy faster than any gun without buffs and abilities?

Actually not true if the enemies are packed up due to punchthrough vs follow through (or in case of corridors cases like the trumna bouncy explosions).
The more in line statement would be "in the vast majority of the games spawn rate and tile cases, melee cleave is extremely efficient".

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3 минуты назад, Andele3025 сказал:

Actually not true if the enemies are packed up due to punchthrough vs follow through (or in case of corridors cases like the trumna bouncy explosions).
The more in line statement would be "in the vast majority of the games spawn rate and tile cases, melee cleave is extremely efficient".

Xoris want a chat with you. xD

Well, it`s right for most of melee, but they still are much more powerful than firearms in general.

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2 minutes ago, B4HEK said:

Xoris want a chat with you. xD

Well, it`s right for most of melee, but they still are much more powerful than firearms in general.

Glaives are a new bonus aka "giving everyone khora 1 after khora 1 got nerfed", but even so due to their actual lockon/redirection rng (irony that the best glaive/thrown weapon auto aim is on one thats slapped in a gun) the point of punchthrough still stands.

Either way the point was melee actually having good cleave (while status aoe that guns could use not being buffed like viral, corrosive and heat were, status shotguns being nerfed by pellet count AND some mods having nonsensically weird values that really influence irl performance feel despite what sheet dps states like split chamber being 90% instead of plain 100% or 120 like the secondary and shotgun multishot) is the relevant factor which should IMO be kept.

Tho some stance mods could be made more in line (notably Sovereign Outcast and Blind Justice with over 3x multi per second for hits while also having slash procs is a wee bit overkill) while finally finishing the melee 2.99998whatever rework with return of smooth stances, front combos actually having free movement, etc.

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7 минут назад, Andele3025 сказал:

Either way the point was melee actually having good cleave (while status aoe that guns could use not being buffed like viral, corrosive and heat were, status shotguns being nerfed by pellet count AND some mods having nonsensically weird values that really influence irl performance feel despite what sheet dps states like split chamber being 90% instead of plain 100% or 120 like the secondary and shotgun multishot) is the relevant factor which should IMO be kept.

If the package of mobs per one tile is the problem here, you could try electric or radiation damage... with electric the more enemies present, the bigger your damage are, and radiation allows you to fully negate ancient healers etc.

Feel free to correct.

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11 минут назад, Andele3025 сказал:

finally finishing the melee 2.99998whatever rework with return of smooth stances, front combos actually having free movement, etc.

Just give me back old life strike... xD

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hace 15 horas, (PSN)Madurai-Prime dijo:

Yea.....that's the point....you're fighting a higher tier of enemy, it's gonna be stronger, and you're obviously supposed to use more than a gun by itself, did you know you can simultaneously use guns with warframe abilities? Ever heard of Harrow? Did you know you have many ways of weakening your enemies and/or strengthening the guns you have with the many tools available? 

None of wich you need when you play melee. So it's fine to be able to go full melee and shred anything, but if you want to do the same with guns you're suddenly a noob that doesn't understand the game.

En 25/12/2020 a las 14:23, (PSN)Madurai-Prime dijo:

People use melee to heal? I thought this was about doing damage with guns? Transference is for healing lol

Yeah! You can immediatly heal 100% health AND deal the highest damage in the game lol

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you guys are talking about apples, and oranges, at the same time.

melee is just better for many enemies, due to slash procs and this and that. guns need some kind of gimmick to deal with multiple enemies. yes, primaries need a small buff. melee needs a small nerf. then everything will be fine.

shattering impact isnt the only way to fully strip armor.. frame abilities are used for that now. yeah you know, frame abilities, the things that used to sort of matter? now your precious corrosive wont get the job done, and you need to play nyx or ash or whatever, like everyone else, if you want to fully strip armor.

or you can play Mag and not worry about armor or anything else ever again.

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36 minutes ago, BasKy said:

None of wich you need when you play melee. So it's fine to be able to go full melee and shred anything, but if you want to do the same with guns you're suddenly a noob that doesn't understand the game.

Yeah! You can immediatly heal 100% health AND deal the highest damage in the game lol

Not sure why people think a single target weapon would ever be put in the same boat as an individual swinging a massive battle axe with a long blade, but yea.... they're literally never gonna be the same....so you're gonna have to deal with it.

A Tiberon Prime or a Rubico Prime is a great weapon and if they existed in real life they would be highly sought after and used in different situations.

Do you know why sometimes militaries have special ops units to eliminate a single target or to conduct an operation with minimal casualties versus just blowing up an entire neighborhood? Maybe because different situations need different tools? 

"But Madurai-Prime, you would never need Tiberons or sniper rifles when tonkors and brammas exist." 

Oh, except for that bounty in Cetus that gives you a bonus based on killing a target without killing any other enemies.....thankfully there's no other stipulations like that in the game or else the community would be completely lost.

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16 hours ago, (PSN)thegarada said:

Hey, this is not hello kitty I am playing Warframe for the first time. What you said is just flat out irrelevant as well, cuz it does not refute that melee weapons deal significantly higher damage than ranged weapons. And majority of the frames do not have armor strip, it is not even remotely relevant to the discussion. Cuz guess what? It works for melee weapons too.

And you say armour scaling was reduced. Do you know how much armor does a level 150 gunner has on SP? Do you know this is lowest level on MoT for gunners?

Outside of the game forcing you to use ranged weapons, ranged weapons are irrelevant outside of applying status or farming low level trash.

 

Welcome to common sense land. Of course melee does more damage than a single target weapon. 

Please provide me a scenario where a person that has a rifle with a finite ammo capacity that requires reloading (requiring a time away from the fight, even if for 1 second) wipes a room similar to a melee.

Does this person have a PC with a third party bot program for automatically switching targets and only hitting headshots?

Because using a single target weapon to do an AOEs job is never gonna be completely equal. You're gonna have to just come to terms with that. 

You can take any AOE weapon like the Tonkor or Ogris or Bramma, Trumnas secondary and wipe rooms fine, with a proper build, proper projectile placement, supplement debuffs or buffs etc.

It doesn't matter if the Tiberon literally one shots level 1000 enemies with each projectile, even disregarding multishot. That tiberon is gonna require the user to actually aim and move their reticle, or funnel their enemies in a narrow hallway to reduce reticle movement.

And the frames that don't have armor strip have their own means to easily dispatch enemies. You're also gonna have to deal with the fact that 45 different frames all have strengths and weaknesses as well. 

"ranged weapons are irrelevant outside of applying status or farming low level trash."

Uhm.....status is a part of doing damage......are you under the impression that people are using 0 status melee weapons to do damage? Because that's not true in any sense.....Or my Korrudos riven disposition would be 0.5 for being so popular....it's actually the combination of status, status procs, crits and crit procs that do damage as well other factors. 

Also, if you're not aware.....the corrupted are supposed to be one of the more difficulty factions to fight. Did you know the starchart has tiered difficulty, with the Void basically being the end (top) of that tier? 

The corrupted intentionally do 3x more damage than grineer, infested, and corpus. 

If you're gonna use them as a standard, then maybe you shouldn't assume you're gonna be using literally only 2 unbuffed, badly built primary and secondary weapons on unbuffed corrupted enemies. 

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hace 3 horas, (PSN)Madurai-Prime dijo:

Not sure why people think a single target weapon would ever be put in the same boat as an individual swinging a massive battle axe with a long blade, but yea.... they're literally never gonna be the same....so you're gonna have to deal with it.

A Tiberon Prime or a Rubico Prime is a great weapon and if they existed in real life they would be highly sought after and used in different situations.

Do you know why sometimes militaries have special ops units to eliminate a single target or to conduct an operation with minimal casualties versus just blowing up an entire neighborhood? Maybe because different situations need different tools? 

"But Madurai-Prime, you would never need Tiberons or sniper rifles when tonkors and brammas exist." 

Oh, except for that bounty in Cetus that gives you a bonus based on killing a target without killing any other enemies.....thankfully there's no other stipulations like that in the game or else the community would be completely lost.

Don't know why are you referring to guns as single target weapons. They don't need to be the same as melee, they need to be equally powerful. It can be situational, but right now almost every situation favors melee.

I don't know why are you comparing Warframe to reality. If Rubico existed in real life they would be good yeah, no need to be primed, considering a human can handle it's recoil, we don't have Warframes in real life. And in real life one bullet can kill a man, in many situations a simple pistol will be better than the overpowered, probably heavy Rubico. What does that have to do with anything? What do special ops have to do with this conversation? The military can't blow up a neighborhood, but we can. And melee can be used as single target anyways. I don't see your point. This whole paragraph was irrelevant

You can't justify the power gap with a bouns from a Bounty. I don't even play bounties, and when I do get that bouns I just melee the guy because again, melee is more efficient.

hace 3 horas, (PSN)Madurai-Prime dijo:

Please provide me a scenario where a person that has a rifle with a finite ammo capacity that requires reloading (requiring a time away from the fight, even if for 1 second) wipes a room similar to a melee.

So this proves OP's point.

 

hace 3 horas, (PSN)Madurai-Prime dijo:

You can take any AOE weapon like the Tonkor or Ogris or Bramma

Not even close to a good melee.

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2 hours ago, BasKy said:

Don't know why are you referring to guns as single target weapons. They don't need to be the same as melee, they need to be equally powerful. It can be situational, but right now almost every situation favors melee.

I don't know why are you comparing Warframe to reality. If Rubico existed in real life they would be good yeah, no need to be primed, considering a human can handle it's recoil, we don't have Warframes in real life. And in real life one bullet can kill a man, in many situations a simple pistol will be better than the overpowered, probably heavy Rubico. What does that have to do with anything? What do special ops have to do with this conversation? The military can't blow up a neighborhood, but we can. And melee can be used as single target anyways. I don't see your point. This whole paragraph was irrelevant

You can't justify the power gap with a bouns from a Bounty. I don't even play bounties, and when I do get that bouns I just melee the guy because again, melee is more efficient.

So this proves OP's point.

 

Not even close to a good melee.

It was to illustrate an example, but I guess I'll be more direct. 

What you're looking for is never gonna happen. 

And yes, AOE weapons are close to good melees. They even have the added benefit of being used from ranged positions. The Bramma kills acolytes from a ranged position in a few well placed shots, completely shielding you from being one shotted and having your abilities stripped and nullified.

Like I said, maybe actually build one up properly and utilize the games movement system.

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23 часа назад, B4HEK сказал:

faster than any gun without buffs and abilities?

 

8 часов назад, SaidTheRogue сказал:

shattering impact isnt the only way to fully strip armor.. frame abilities are used for that now. yeah you know, frame abilities, the things that used to sort of matter? now your precious corrosive wont get the job done, and you need to play nyx or ash or whatever, like everyone else, if you want to fully strip armor.

For God`s sake... Do you even read all the parts of post?

The point of one from my many statements was, that melee actually don`t need warframe powers to fully strip armor and easily shred heavy armored targets to pieces...

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1 час назад, (PSN)Madurai-Prime сказал:

Like I said, maybe actually build one up properly and utilize the games movement system.

Why would i need ranged weapon when i have my OP Skana? 

Acolytes and Stalker in Sponge Path are food to me anyways...

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On 2020-12-23 at 7:34 PM, B4HEK said:

Imo DE just wants us to play melee only, because this is the only type of weapons which can scale in damage as the time passes..

Recently, Cedo was introduced... Auto shotgun with built in Condition Overload... Yes, it is powerful, but not as weapon itself, compared to melee, because many players just will spam its glaive for CO damage boost on melee. I really don`t understand, what stops DE from making CO mod for firearms? 

The "balance" is nonexistent in this game, so why they can`t just accept OP design of Warframe and allow us to powercreep anything...

P.S. It is also frustrating to many players that we can`t change holster positions for firearms compared to melee... So, no real fashionframe for guns.

I don't know what the #*!% you're talking about, I only ever use my melee on Steel Path and even then, only vs those mini-bosses that appear randomly. Against everything else I just spam Ignis, because you know, it has far better range. 

The only time I never touch primaries/secondaries is when playing Nidus. Because he can just ignore distance overall.

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1 минуту назад, (XBOX)XG1anBl4derX сказал:

I don't know what the #*!% you're talking about, I only ever use my melee on Steel Path and even then, only vs those mini-bosses that appear randomly. Against everything else I just spam Ignis, because you know, it has far better range. 

The only time I never touch primaries/secondaries is when playing Nidus. Because he can just ignore distance overall.

The point is, that firearms is worse in HIGHER levels of enemies (like 200+), compared to melee. 

If you like to sit in that paddling pool, called Sponge Path, then good to you, i guess...

But there are people who literraly fight with enemies who`s levels are OVER 9000!!!

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