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Power Cooldowns?


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A scary word indeed for warframe players but hear me out for a second.

So, i have been observing the problems that people has with the core gameplay warframe has. The more powerful you are, the more efficient you will be in farming items. But, this caused a drawback in which gameplay becomes repetitive and boring. Not rarely do i see my vet friends complaining about how the game becomes a 1 button idle game rather than the hack and slash that the game is made for. This made endgame gameplay a snoozefest and boringly repetitive, not fun repetitive.

Then DE tried to respond by adding an extra difficulty where they amp up the health and armor of enemies and yet that serves to be only a mild nuisance. In the end, the players will eventually have to resort to meta tactics and frames which loops back to the main problem that i mentioned.

So i wonder, what if we add a cooldown to ults or something like that? Not like short cooldowns, but longer cooldowns for abilities like we see in mmorpgs like genshin impact or world of warcraft, or basically almost any game that has abilities. What if we change the ability mechanic to have a more substantial worth rather than an easy to access win condition?

By doing so, we essentially encourage players to rely on their weapons instead of their abilities because they have to compensate their damage output while waiting for the cooldowns. It also encourage players to coordinate and cooperate with their fellow friends to actually do something instead of standing around doing 1 button presses, helping each other to survive each round, making gameplay more engaging and keeping players on high alert at all times. Maybe that would also encourage players to utilize other weapons and abilities they won't normally use such as the archguns for stronger enemies. It's also probably an easier method to implement because of the existing cooldown mechanic in certain cases rather than making fully fledged game modes and whatnots.

Sure it has some drawbacks, farming would be less efficient and people will be mad if this is actually implemented. The game would need balancing and adjustments here and there, but for the long term, it will preserve the core mechanic of this game which is a hack and slash looter shooter, ensuring the longevity of the gameplay itself. Sure there are meta weapons that makes this easier, but at least people will actually use them rather than resort to standing around and casting abilities.

Besides, the main selling point of warframe in the first place is not about being an ultra powerful arch mage of devastation.

Warframe is a game about space ninjas

with guns

And what do ninjas with guns do?

We hack, slash, and shoot.

Edited by mega_lova_nia
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Eh, I really don't like the cooldowns on Lavos. Having your abilities stuck on long cooldowns doesn't feel so great and I'd hate to see it used elsewhere. I'd much rather have balanced abilities that can be cast more often with a less restrictive energy system. Crank up the passive energy regen, knock down the overpowered abilities, and let people mix their abilities and weapons freely.

Protea kind of embodies this; as long as you have your Dispensary somewhere nearby you can pretty much cast your powers indefinitely. But she doesn't one-shot right away unless you're at lower levels. Her turrets need a little build-up, have a relatively short duration, and have a cap on how many can be out at once. Her grenades can be spammed all over, but aren't super strong on their own. So you can mix your set of reasonably strong abilities with your other weapons and it's really fun. Compare that to Khora, where once I get her warmed up she one-shots entire rooms in a fraction of a second. I wouldn't want Whipclaw on a cooldown because that would feel terrible, instead I'd rather see it balanced appropriately so it's not so absurd. That would let me have a reason to use her other powers a little more often and would make her more fun to play.

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I'd more favor a different approach.

Ability spam at its core is more related to the fact that energy sustain and high power efficiency became a standard for every player. Ability costs do not matter anymore when you're always running Zenurik, Rage, or simply use a warframe who can generate their own energy. What I would do instead is getting rid of power efficiency, give to everyone natural energy regeneration over time (value will vary between frames), and make sure energy sustain is only available for very few warframes who are supposed to have a support role (thus making warframes able to regenerate energy a very valuable asset again).

This would also mean a lot of mods, mechanics and abilities may need to be revamped of course. You don't want that new system to be already broken because Rage or Zenurik exists. 

This also means you would still be able to spam if you carry a Trinity or a Harrow with you, and that's fair for me since it would bring back a tiny bit of cooperation in the game.

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What I like about Lavos is I don't have to play him. The cooldown on all his abilities was an immediate no thank you from me. If all frames got the same treatment I'd be looking for a new game. 

What's the point of having 40+ frames if your abilities are always on cooldown. Might as well just play Inaros at that point. 

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3 hours ago, mega_lova_nia said:

So, i have been observing the problems that people has with the core gameplay warframe has. The more powerful you are, the more efficient you will be in farming items. But, this caused a drawback in which gameplay becomes repetitive and boring. Not rarely do i see my vet friends complaining about how the game becomes a 1 button idle game rather than the hack and slash that the game is made for. This made endgame gameplay a snoozefest and boringly repetitive, not fun repetitive.

The power is not a problem but the amount of grind you need to get an "Item X". Making us use less abilities means that we will be slower, hence more boring gameplay.

 

3 hours ago, mega_lova_nia said:

By doing so, we essentially encourage players to rely on their weapons instead of their abilities

This will make certain missions super hard for something that were supposed to be "relatively easy". The Cetus Bounties without the Mesa would be hard. I play solo and I honestly don't see enemies but they still counts towards mission failure. Mesa's aimbots makes that bounty "finishable". With cooldowns I would just, do what? Run around a camp so maybe I could find an enemy? Nope.

 

And there is certain thing.... Nullies! Those "guys" destroys your abilities. Imagine you used your 4th to buff you few times (e.g. Inaros). You want to use your ability on an enemy, your cooldown ends, you cast  an ability but sudennly Nully jumps at you destroying everything. Now you have no buff but you still have to wait because you have cooldowns.
That's VERY frustrating.

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4 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

I'd more favor a different approach.

Ability spam at its core is more related to the fact that energy sustain and high power efficiency became a standard for every player. Ability costs do not matter anymore when you're always running Zenurik, Rage, or simply use a warframe who can generate their own energy. What I would do instead is getting rid of power efficiency, give to everyone natural energy regeneration over time (value will vary between frames), and make sure energy sustain is only available for very few warframes who are supposed to have a support role (thus making warframes able to regenerate energy a very valuable asset again).

This would also mean a lot of mods, mechanics and abilities may need to be revamped of course. You don't want that new system to be already broken because Rage or Zenurik exists. 

This also means you would still be able to spam if you carry a Trinity or a Harrow with you, and that's fair for me since it would bring back a tiny bit of cooperation in the game.

^

Agreed with this. Except possibly the Trinity/Harrow part because, whilst it does bring back more co-op, I'm not sure if the potential for semi-AFK and the potential push for healbot players is entirely worth it.

Personally, I'd go with a more DOOM Eternal inspired approach, and have energy gain related to weapon performance, since that opens the door for more weapons being valuable by opening more paths for a weapon's viability than pure DPS. My thought is that all weapons have a couple of stats - one that says what you need to do to get a shot of energy, and then how much doing that thing gets. So, big multi-kills, precision headshot kills etc. - similar in idea to the Sharpshooter mod, but innate and more variable. Some weapons don't give a lot of benefit, whilst others do. I'd especially give melee weapons very little means to regen energy, but things like Bramma or Rubico or the other big meta picks in any given category would be generally poor for energy regen. Likewise, weaker weapons have more generous return rates or activation critera.

That way guns and abilities get some legitimate interplay

 

Either way though, it's still a relatively lower rate than now. If a frame is particularly energy-thirsty, the difference gets made up with through their abilities. For example, Ember being able to regen energy through her weaker DPS abilities. Tweak up the cost of inferno a bit, give the other two some means to regen energy, and flame chicken girl has a gameplay loop. Equinox I'd do something fun and give her two pools based on her current form, and cheapen her current powers and give her more value from regeneration sources - but it only goes into the pool for the form she's not using at the time. That's intended to eliminate the fact she tends to stay in one form the whole game. Stuff like that. And less hungry frames like Rhino, they don't need the constant drip-feed of energy anyway.

Edited by Loza03
Gain not drain
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27 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

So, big multi-kills, precision headshot kills etc.

So, if I cannot get a kill I would get nothing? If that's the case then it's bad. I want energy so I can use abilities. I want use abilities to kill enemies. If I cannot kill enemies I couldn't get energy that way.
However for lower level enemies I either have enough energy or enough power in gun/melee to kill enemies.

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1 minute ago, quxier said:

So, if I cannot get a kill I would get nothing? If that's the case then it's bad. I want energy so I can use abilities. I want use abilities to kill enemies. If I cannot kill enemies I couldn't get energy that way.
However for lower level enemies I either have enough energy or enough power in gun/melee to kill enemies.

You use gun to get energy to use ability to supplement gun to shoot enemy to get energy to use ability... is the base loop I propose.

As I call out, plenty of frames wouldn't work so well with just that. Which is why those frames would get abilities that serve the same purpose. As I call out with Ember, fireball or flame blast also get her energy to use inferno, which I would make more expensive and not regenerate energy. If not that than other supplements - Protea can still supplement her energy with dispensary, Equinox has that 'two gauges' thing I mentioned, Nidus already has something like this. Frankly speaking, there's a precedent for this system, the base energy rates are just borked, as are the energy rates with loot, but for opposite reasons. My suggestion generally aims at setting a better baseline.

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22 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

You use gun to get energy to use ability to supplement gun to shoot enemy to get energy to use ability... is the base loop I propose.

My problem is sometimes you cannot kill enemies fast enough. It's the same (but less random) problem with orbs. If I cannot kill an enemy I cannot get a chance to have an energy orb.

Your suggestion (on-X-kill, where X is some certain situation like headshot) won't fix problem for high-level content and for low-level content it's not needed.

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*Looks around*

I #*!%ing love Lavos.

Im just not a fan of his design (aesthetically speaking).

I always thought that SOME abilities need to have a cooldown *points at most timer based abilities*.

Also, Energy Regen should be universal and a passive, that can be tuned with either mods, or during combat mechanics, similar to Exodia Brave, or Energizing Shot, but on headshots or something, and for the love of the non-existent bastard up there, remove health and energy orbs (which is a pet peeve of mine)!

Side note, if i could only use abilities and no weapons, id be a very happy man, but for some reason, weapons, most of the time, out-perform abilities... Laaaame...

Edited by Kaggelos
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The problem with vanilla cooldowns, IMO, is their static nature. There's no player input. You use an ability, tap your foot for a handful of seconds, then use it again. You could throw a macro to use abilities and not really lose out on much.

I do tend to support a modified version of Loza's idea that uses cooldowns on non-ultimate abilities and energy on ultimate abilities. In general: landing hits with weapons reduces cooldowns, and ability damage (or, simply, usage) grants energy. I support that because, in the same vein as Loza's idea can bring non-meta weapons to a forefront by tying them into ability usage, underused abilities can be brought toward the forefront by tying them into ultimate usage. It also means you aren't "wasting" energy on sub-par abilities, especially if energy is made more scarce, because they pull from a different resource than the more useful ultimates. Moreover, it means the game's pacing can change, but doesn't have to: you could slow the pacing down and make ultimates rarer, or have it such that optimal gameplay allows players to spam ultimates at a similar rate as now. The major difference being that that level of ultimate usage requires using a complete kit very effectively.

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I see the game has only 35k average players nowadays. (steam chart, not best gauge of data but still better than people who claim their ideas are popular with ZERO data)

Even with new event ongoing.

I wonder why. Could it be... that the developers have been nerfing warframes again and again (Khora the most recent victim with her whip nerf), and now forced people to play a mode in the ongoing event that removes warframes entirely within a certain area of the battlefield?

And you, 200IQ suggestion, lets nerf MORE!  Add cooldowns!

I guess we are infiltrated by people who want this game to die. 

 

Warframe is about warframe. I don't want your call of duty in space (guns or whatever). 

Edited by Xepthrichros
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Energy costs and cooldowns are effectively the same thing. But either way, I agree that currently we have too easy access to our warframe powers. Especially on a maximum efficiency build, you can just spam any and every ability non-stop during a mission. Mesa for example can just Peacemaker every single thing 24/7. I don't think that's the way the game should be. Ultimates should be more of a panic button or something you use when the situation gets especially out of control.

I remember back when I first started the game, when I was running around with my unranked Excalibur. My abilities were weaker due to not being rank 30, and I was missing many mods. I didn't have Streamline, Fleeting Expertise, or Flow back then. It actually felt like I had to be careful using my abilities, and watch my energy bar and make wise decisions. Back then, I'd play normally with my weapons, and only pull out my Exalted Blade when I really needed to dish out heavy damage very quickly — I'd even turn it back off again ASAP to conserve energy! I think that was fun and a better way for the game to play. Nowadays I could just be in Exalted Blade 24/7 with no problems and don't even need to watch the energy bar...

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В 31.12.2020 в 10:02, mega_lova_nia сказал:

coordinate and cooperate with their fellow friends to actually do something instead of standing around doing 1 button presses

And what you propose for solo players, doing long survival runs? Just death because abilities are on cooldown?

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В 31.12.2020 в 10:43, LascarCapable сказал:

This would also mean a lot of mods, mechanics and abilities may need to be revamped of course. You don't want that new system to be already broken because Rage or Zenurik exists. 

This also means you would still be able to spam if you carry a Trinity or a Harrow with you, and that's fair for me since it would bring back a tiny bit of cooperation in the game.

In this case, i couldn`t just live in Excal`s ultimative... 😭

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17 часов назад, Xepthrichros сказал:

Warframe is about warframe. I don't want your call of duty in space (guns or whatever). 

THIS

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18 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Warframe is about warframe. I don't want your call of duty in space (guns or whatever). 

I'm as against the nerfs as you are - I see DE trying to steer the game away from "idle game" territory but doing so from the wrong direction (nerfing ability usefulness and power rather than adjusting access) - but the game's been about Warframes and weapons since its inception. To say, in spite of that fact, "It's called Warframe so it's about Warframes" is the same as saying "the tagline is 'ninjas play free' so we should be like ninjas". Just because that's what it says on the tin doesn't mean focusing all design around it is the best idea.

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