Energy: Isn't it about time we added passive energy generation?

[Lutesque]

On 2021-01-02 at 1:45 PM, Teliko_Freedman said:

Isn't it about time we added passive energy generation?

Nope.... 

But it is about time we added Active Energy Generation.... 

Ofcourse if that doesn't work out then Passive Energy Generation is fine.

On 2021-01-02 at 1:45 PM, Teliko_Freedman said:

The Archwings have built in energy generation already, so it's not something impossible to do.

While this is Technically true.... The Regen Rate isn't actually enough to use any Abilities...

Not that it matters...the Drop Rate and Value of Energy Orbs in Archwing Missions is WAAAAAAAAY higher than in normal missions.

On 2021-01-02 at 4:17 PM, Lone_Dude said:

DE don't seem to like passive energy regen very much.

I'd go as far as Saying that they don't like anything Functioning Automatically without Player input.... and that's a good thing....

Unfortunately since they won't add any active methods of Fixing the issue.... It just makes us want a Passive Solution even more.

On 2021-01-08 at 12:10 AM, Teridax68 said:

It's entirely possible for a newcomer to complete a mission from start to finish and never be able to cast their 3 or 4.

Possible ?

This is literally what Warframe was like my first Month.... 😥 

Oh man those were Dark Times....

On 2021-01-08 at 12:10 AM, Teridax68 said:

Energy pizzas in particular ought to go, as whenever one can use them, one no longer has any Energy concerns at all no matter what.

Well... To be Fair... This doesn't apply to all Warframe's equally since pizzas don't work while a Channeled ability is active.

And even then some Channeled abilities can be turned on or Off without penalty whilest others can't afford to be turned off at all for fear of Resetting whatever scaling it's built up so far....

I'm not disagreeing with anything you're proposing... Pizzas are definitely busted.... Just pointing out that is busted in a Strange way.

On 2021-01-08 at 12:10 AM, Teridax68 said:

Problem #2 is a lot thornier, and I'm not even sure if simply changing components to our Energy economy would fix it.

It can't be helped.... A Sacrifice is needed... The taste of Salt is Inevitable 😱 !!!

On 2021-01-08 at 12:10 AM, Teridax68 said:

For sure, removing Energy drains would make gameplay less unpleasant at times, but at the end of the day, it's not actually fun to have our ability usage limited, no matter the means. Many players push back against changes to make our ability usage more limited, because they don't want to play a resource management game with Energy, and I'm pretty much on the same boat as well. I don't think Warframe is really a game about managing resources, and I actually like being able to use any ability whenever I feel like it.

I'm glad you brought this up because I had the strangest sensation back when I was messing with Gauss and and Protea..

It turns out that under Certain conditions these two Frames can have more Energy than they can spend.... And thats what irritated me... The fact that I couldn't Drop enough Blaze Artilleries and Thermal Sunders fast enough.... My ability to Spam was Gimped by Animations rather than energy supply.

Which was really funny....

On 2021-01-08 at 12:10 AM, Teridax68 said:

because most of our abilities don't feature much in the way of interaction (i.e. they're designed to kill enemies at the press of a button),

So much so that it's possible for the game to play itself sometimes... 😮 !!! Hence why I've nominated Octavia as the one of  the 2 Warframe's in need of a Rework the most...

On 2021-01-08 at 12:10 AM, Teridax68 said:

Thus, I'd much rather have a Warframe without any Energy gating at all, but one where abilities are instead designed to be interactive, offering the player awesome power if they participate in playing the game.

Is such Sorcery even possible 🤔 ? I'm genuinely having a Hard Time just picturing it... 

 

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

I'd say Energy would be an issue if I was maybe 50 hours into the game.

Not anymore after 2500 hrs.

[IncuBB]

Personally, i have only one problem with current energy management....


....MAKE A FRIGGIN ENERGY FULL FROM THE MISSION START, FGS!

 

[Leqesai]

2 hours ago, IncuBB said:

Personally, i have only one problem with current energy management....


....MAKE A FRIGGIN ENERGY FULL FROM THE MISSION START, FGS!

 

Initial energy is based on available mod capacity. There is also a mod that makes you start with full energy...

[Leqesai]

4 hours ago, UUDDLRLRBA_START said:

I'd say Energy would be an issue if I was maybe 50 hours into the game.

Not anymore after 2500 hrs.

This so much.

There are loads of ways to stay stocked up on energy.

Helminth well of life onto your character and use equillibrium, for example. The health orbs will give all the energy you need.

Or use pads

Or use other energy gain abilities

Or use energy gain sentinel

Just as a few examples....

[IncuBB]

2 часа назад, Leqesai сказал:

Initial energy is based on available mod capacity. There is also a mod that makes you start with full energy...

Which is making no sense.
Trading a mod slot for a thing that is SUPPOSE to be there in the first place is a bad design to begin with.
I have no problem with additional resources, like something you generate executing certain mechanics. But energy is a COMMON resource. Thank god we don't start with 1 health.
Because with same excuse you are proposing, they could do that also.
So no. It's not right.
Getting energy full from the start will not affect balance like at all.
And not having it makes ZERO sense. It's annoying. It's forced. It's just bad design. Period.

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, IncuBB said:

Which is making no sense.
Trading a mod slot for a thing that is SUPPOSE to be there in the first place is a bad design to begin with.
I have no problem with additional resources, like something you generate executing certain mechanics. But energy is a COMMON resource. Thank god we don't start with 1 health.
Because with same excuse you are proposing, they could do that also.
So no. It's not right.
Getting energy full from the start will not affect balance like at all.
And not having it makes ZERO sense. It's annoying. It's forced. It's just bad design. Period.

The error in your logic is assuming warframes should have full energy by default. They arent. Thats why there are ways to adjust the initial energy in game. This is a non issue.

[IncuBB]

33 минуты назад, Leqesai сказал:

The error in your logic is assuming warframes should have full energy by default. They arent. Thats why there are ways to adjust the initial energy in game. This is a non issue.

Give me at least one valid argument why they shouldn't have a full energy.

From my side a can at least give a solid argument:
Energy is a resource. So does health.
We don't start missions with "basic" health. We start with FULL health. Being it increased through mods or buffs.
So why shouldn't we start with full energy then?
Answer is simple - bad design.

So yeah. Bad design IS an issue.

[Teridax68]

14 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Is such Sorcery even possible 🤔 ? I'm genuinely having a Hard Time just picturing it... 

Oh, I think it is, it would just involve designing abilities with different principles: you shouldn't be able to just press a button to kill an enemy any time, for example (that's what weapons are for anyway), but you could instead make enemies more vulnerable, execute them if they're low on health, or deploy this thing you can only have around at one location at a time that could help with the killing. Instead of just giving yourself steroids at-will, you might instead gain power from killing enemies or engaging in some other form of interaction with the environment. Basically, the underlying idea I think is that every frame ability should enable interaction with the environment and enemies: the player shouldn't just be asserting their will without challenge, they should be interacting with the situation their in, and their abilities should give them enhanced or additional options (and proper options, fit for different situations, rather than "choices" that the player finds themselves having to use all the time brainlessly).

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

Dunno about you guys, but my energy regeneration is pretty darn passive.

 

7 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Oh, I think it is, it would just involve designing abilities with different principles: you shouldn't be able to just press a button to kill an enemy any time, for example (that's what weapons are for anyway), but you could instead make enemies more vulnerable, execute them if they're low on health, or deploy this thing you can only have around at one location at a time that could help with the killing. Instead of just giving yourself steroids at-will, you might instead gain power from killing enemies or engaging in some other form of interaction with the environment. Basically, the underlying idea I think is that every frame ability should enable interaction with the environment and enemies: the player shouldn't just be asserting their will without challenge, they should be interacting with the situation their in, and their abilities should give them enhanced or additional options (and proper options, fit for different situations, rather than "choices" that the player finds themselves having to use all the time brainlessly).

Could you provide literally any examples?

Because what you’re describing is literally an entirely different game. 
 

Everything would need to be rebuilt from the ground up to accomodate this. Furthermore, how would you do this with 40 warframes?

There’s only so many ways you can interact with the environment.

[TheBrsrkr]

On 2021-01-02 at 7:45 AM, Teliko_Freedman said:

I know energy pads can restore energy quickly, Zenurik school too, Energy Syphon Aura mod to a far less degree.

But they're basically a crutch, that makes it harder for other players to move away from and try other other Focus Schools, or any other Aura Mods.

Scroll back two years in the forum and you'll see people saying that these exact things are necessary to promote build diversity. It's too late now. We have too many ways of generating too much energy, so why would they make it inherent? Why would they want to, when we've proven multiple times that instead of using our abilities in a diverse way we spam 4 until everything dies? You can't call it "build diversity" when all you do is the same thing. 

[Leqesai]

7 hours ago, IncuBB said:

Give me at least one valid argument why they shouldn't have a full energy.

From my side a can at least give a solid argument:
Energy is a resource. So does health.
We don't start missions with "basic" health. We start with FULL health. Being it increased through mods or buffs.
So why shouldn't we start with full energy then?
Answer is simple - bad design.

So yeah. Bad design IS an issue.

Because the game isn't designed with your faulty logic in mind.

Just because you think it is bad design doesn't make it true. Your logic is flawed and the premise "we don't start missions with "basic" health" is a false equivalence.

I'm not going to engage with this fruitless argument anymore. Good day.

[Kruzible]

I really like how Garuda works. She's far from my favorite frame, but I think she has the perfect amount of hands-on, yet autonomous energy economy. You use her health to give you energy; you can get a lot of energy from it, but you also have to remember that without using aforementioned energy, you can't get health back either, which is only a problem because neither health nor energy regens. Basically, you have to carefully manage having energy, but also not being bottom-capped at 2 health or you risk getting one tapped. You still have that amazing power fantasy, but it's also still very balanced and interactive.

I think there are characters that deserve having consistently maxed out energy, like Inaros. Just because his energy isn't game changing like say having an Equinox with infinite power. So keeping Rage/Hunter's Adrenaline is still a great idea. Limbo is also a good idea, because in my mind Limbo is like the perfect 'sandbox' frame. You can be 100% untouchable and get energy back, but it makes you unable to interact. (for the most part)

  

8 hours ago, IncuBB said:

Give me at least one valid argument why they shouldn't have a full energy.

Look up the mod called Preparation

[Lutesque]

16 hours ago, IncuBB said:

....MAKE A FRIGGIN ENERGY FULL FROM THE MISSION START, FGS!

Ah yes... Preparation....

When I saw that mod for the first time it really pissed me off....

Not only that... Its one of those High Cost Mods.... So DE believes you have to spend 25 000 Endo AND sacrifice one Mod Slot just for the privelage of starting with full energy 😐.

13 hours ago, Leqesai said:

There are loads of ways to stay stocked up on energy.

And they're all band aids... This is primary problem with Energy... and other things but energy first and foremost.

13 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Or use pads

This is the only exception.... It's the only form of Energy Acquisition that doesn't get in the way of  choices like the other options do...

Unfortunately DE is aware of this so they Gimped it in other ways and so it's not the universal solution we want it to be.

9 hours ago, Leqesai said:

The error in your logic is assuming warframes should have full energy by default. They arent.

"By Default" sounds Abit ambiguous in this Sentence.... I'm not sure what you mean by that.

7 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Basically, the underlying idea I think is that every frame ability should enable interaction with the environment and enemies:

More Environment interactions would definitely be nice 🙂

7 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

Everything would need to be rebuilt from the ground up to accomodate this. Furthermore, how would you do this with 40 warframes?

Indeed.... It seems like this is the only solution.... And the longer they put it off the more impossible it will be to pull it off.

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

I'm not going to engage with this fruitless argument anymore. Good day.

I don't think you could even if you wanted to.... The fact that DE even bothered to make Preparation shows there's nothing wrong with Starting with Full Energy....

Now it's just a matter of getting them to NOT try to monetize a QOL improvement....

 

[IncuBB]

8 часов назад, Leqesai сказал:

Because the game isn't designed with your faulty logic in mind.

Just because you think it is bad design doesn't make it true. Your logic is flawed and the premise "we don't start missions with "basic" health" is a false equivalence.

I'm not going to engage with this fruitless argument anymore. Good day.

Ah, i love when elitists losing and trying to act like this)
So cute)

 

[IncuBB]

8 часов назад, Ranknus сказал:

Look up the mod called Preparation

You do realize that this is just bandaid created by DE when they screw up, do you?
And it's poorly designed bandaid i must say.

[Kruzible]

10 hours ago, IncuBB said:

You do realize that this is just bandaid created by DE when they screw up, do you?
And it's poorly designed bandaid i must say.

Fair enough, and I'm not going to argue against that, but some people seem hell bent on starting with full energy, so I'm filling them in. One potential fix, is adding a dual mod config for each frame that is just Exilus stuff. Like 4-5 mod slots that you can only use for Exilus

[Lutesque]

17 hours ago, IncuBB said:

You do realize that this is just bandaid created by DE when they screw up, do you?
And it's poorly designed bandaid i must say.

A poorly designed expensive Band Aid you have to grind for... Which I did... And can't always use because of the Ridiculous Drain.

 

[Azamagon]

On 2021-01-07 at 11:10 PM, Teridax68 said:

I think there are two levels of brokenness with Energy in this discussion that are potentially getting mixed up:

1. Our Energy economy at higher levels looks nothing like when we start, because our baseline Energy system is incredibly deficient, yet propped up by power-ups powerful enough to remove constraints almost entirely once equipped.
2. Energy as a system is broken because its model fundamentally doesn't work for the way we want to use our abilities. Spamming abilities without limit trivializes the game, yet when we're prevented from using our abilities when we want to, it feels awful and often shuts us down way too hard.

For problem #1, I would support the OP's proposal as part of a larger plan to eliminate the extremes of the Energy economy: we may not feel it when we have some experience with the game (and the mods, arcanes, Focus, etc. that come with it), but newcomers have a hard time utilizing their abilities at all, because their only source of Energy will be orbs, which drop infrequently, and even the smallest ability cast costs a large portion of their reserves, which don't even start at full. It's entirely possible for a newcomer to complete a mission from start to finish and never be able to cast their 3 or 4. Because of this, I think it would make sense to implement baseline Energy regeneration. In exchange, I'd tone down or remove excessive higher-end sources of energy. Energy pizzas in particular ought to go, as whenever one can use them, one no longer has any Energy concerns at all no matter what.

Problem #2 is a lot thornier, and I'm not even sure if simply changing components to our Energy economy would fix it. For sure, removing Energy drains would make gameplay less unpleasant at times, but at the end of the day, it's not actually fun to have our ability usage limited, no matter the means. Many players push back against changes to make our ability usage more limited, because they don't want to play a resource management game with Energy, and I'm pretty much on the same boat as well. I don't think Warframe is really a game about managing resources, and I actually like being able to use any ability whenever I feel like it.

With this in mind, I'd argue the problem with our Energy system isn't even with our Energy gating, but with what happens when we get to use our abilities on-demand: because most of our abilities don't feature much in the way of interaction (i.e. they're designed to kill enemies at the press of a button), using them excessively removes interaction from the game, which is why DE have repeatedly designed enemies that ignore or negate our abilities just to try to force some of it back in. It's the reason why playing lots of Mesa or another nuke frame feels boring for many, because spamming a room-clear button non-stop isn't very engaging gameplay. Thus, I'd much rather have a Warframe without any Energy gating at all, but one where abilities are instead designed to be interactive, offering the player awesome power if they participate in playing the game. This is obviously much easier said than done, and would require massive changes of its own, but ultimately I think would work much better for the game than any other sort of ability gating system.

Well put.

If I may, I'd summarize my thoughts on it like this.

Squish the energy

Make it easier to handle on the lower end, and tougher to handle on the higher end. Higher floor, lower ceiling. Less extremes tend to work better, as the balance is easier to see.

Examples of heightening the floor:

• Innate energy regen
• Less potency from energy-removing effects from enemies (like nerfing Energy Leeches, Magnetic Procs and Ancient Disruptor all in regards to how they attack our energy)
• All Focus schools providing some form of light energy-boosting (like a rage-effect for Unairu, energy from headshots/weakspot/finishers for Naramon etc)

Examples of lowering the ceiling:

• Energy pizzas nerfed in some way (less energy per pulse, cooldown between useage and/or limitted use per mission)
• Ability efficiency either having a stricter cap (like 50% reduction instead of 75%), or using the old formula (where +100% efficiency = halfed cost, and +300% efficiency = quartered cost, as one would expect)
• Reducing the power of Arcane Energize
• Reducing the power of energy-gaining skills (Trinity EV, energy-orb-creating abilities like Chakram, Dispenser etc)

And, with that, rebalance the threat of the enemies so we are not useless/instakilled without our skills either.

 

 

[Teridax68]

9 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

If I may, I'd summarize my thoughts on it like this.

Squish the energy

Make it easier to handle on the lower end, and tougher to handle on the higher end. Higher floor, lower ceiling. Less extremes tend to work better, as the balance is easier to see.

I very much agree with this and the intent of toning down the extremes of our Energy economy, with the one reservation that energy from Focus I think would be part of the ceiling, given that Focus is a system we only unlock later on (though relatively early in our total playtime in Warframe). In that particular case, though, if we're not removing Energy regen from Focus, I completely agree that it's something that should be made available in some form to every school, as currently there's no real reason not to pick Zenurik every time. Zenurik's own regen should also likely be altered so that it's not simply a button one presses for free Energy, and I think it would be better to make it require at least slightly more interaction (e.g. "enemies hit by Void Dash are marked for X seconds to have a Y% chance to drop an Energy orb on death).

Going further, I also think there's more that could be done with the basic elements of the Energy system in the game: both Energy and health orbs, for example, currently drop at random, when it could potentially be much more interesting to make them drop reliably from certain actions, e.g. stealth weapon kills, Mercies, headshots, finishers, and so on. I think part of the reason why the game has such a poor handle on our ability usage is because there isn't really a solid model for how we're meant to expend and regain Energy: random Energy drops are far too unreliable in most cases to be our main source of restoration, which is why we've been given a bunch of other ways of getting Energy instead (and why newer players struggle with ability casts so much), so the end result is a mess of different mechanics with no real underlying gameplay. If the model were even something as simplistic as "abilities use up Energy, weapon kills restore Energy", that would already be a step up from our current situation.

[TheGrimCorsair]

It's about time we had actual meaningful limits on our energy pool.

[Zeddypanda]

5 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Squish the energy

All for this. It wasn't fun at the start when I could barely use abilities, and now that I can throw vortex faster than it runs out I'm honestly a bit disgusted. All the tactical aspects of Vauban just goes out the window when I can simply kill the whole room continuously.

I'm not even close to how far I can push it! My Zenurik dash is rank 1 out of 6, and I only have your bog standard 24% streamline.

[Pizzarugi]

I'd rather not have passive energy regen. In fact, I'll go so far as to say the source of energy regen we have right now should be nerfed.

This game's energy economy needs to matter again. People wouldn't be as upset about Mesa or Saryn murdering everything if it wasn't easy for them to spam their nukes because of how little they care about spending energy.

[Lutesque]

16 hours ago, Zeddypanda said:

All for this. It wasn't fun at the start when I could barely use abilities, and now that I can throw vortex faster than it runs out I'm honestly a bit disgusted. All the tactical aspects of Vauban just goes out the window when I can simply kill the whole room continuously.

I'm not even close to how far I can push it! My Zenurik dash is rank 1 out of 6, and I only have your bog standard 24% streamline.

As a Fellow Booben Main... Why don't you just not use Zenurik ?

I myself Have Difficulty casting multiple instances of Vortex because I use Madurai and Naramon. 

3 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

This game's energy economy needs to matter again. People wouldn't be as upset about Mesa or Saryn murdering everything if it wasn't easy for them to spam their nukes because of how little they care about spending energy.

I don't think you thought this through.... 😐

Sure Mesa and Saryn won't be murdering everything but since You achieved this but Gimping Energy for everyone those players you want to help won't get mileage out of their Abilities either since they will also be affected by the exact same thing. 😱

 

[Acos]

Ye Olde ancient reason we don't have passive energy to this day is because initially when the game started with passive energy regeneration the developers noticed that people would simply hide behind things until their powers were available, and making it so that energy was only given back by engaging with enemies encouraged players to be aggressive which made the game feel more fun. DE has never wanted Warframe to feel like a "cover shooter" where you just hide behind boxes for the entire game. 

The game is quite different today of course; enemies are much more aggressive and have some measure of ability counter our Warframes' powers, either through specific mitigations or just overwhelming numbers. We have a lot of methods to manage energy that are not reliant upon enemy drops as well, so I don't imagine passive energy regeneration would be nearly so outlandish anymore and would likely be more of a "quality of life" thing than any real kind of power creep.