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Umbra simaris stuff missing?


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32 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

IF but just IF what you say is correct and you are 100% right then you are right only half way

Again IF you are right then i admit we cant have exaclibur umbra listed as something we can buy from simaris offers
BUUUUUUUT also IF you are right that would mean we cant simply obtain it like any other frame 

SOOOoooooo that would mean if we want a duplicate it would not be as simple as item for sell at some vendor but we need to do something "SPECIAL" as u call it to obtain a duplicate of it since still agreement do not mention anything about players being able to have only 1 copy of it nor dos it say anything about not allowing to create duplicates of already owned copy

At least if you care to look at it from obeying law standpoint this is most accurate interpretation
Kinda same analogy can be used to explain if you are prohibited from driving a car that does not translate to being prohibition from riding in the car as passenger

Or maybe its bad example but more or less you get what i meant

As you stated only trough "special means"
So technically that only mean "not by normal means" and not "only from 1 source which isnt normal one"

Care to argue on that? Im all ears or eyes

 i tend to explain and try to discuss , i dont like arguing for the sake of it 

if i had to take a guess it would be the exact agreement  which only leyou and de know, we only get the abridged public version statment of what the result would be

so if the agreement had specific outlines for the likness and implementation then de had/has its hands tied 

so an example of  the specifics might be

(example)

  • excalibur umbra prime and all likeness there of ,are property of stararmor and are restricted in likeness deployment to global build
  • 1 excalibur Umbra per user is granted on completion of the special quest for obtainment
  • this frame cannot be deleted or re-obtained or removed 
  • this frame "excalibur umbra" will not have the exact same powers as "excalibur umbra prime "
  • the variant will be treated legally as a excalibur umbra prime and must comply will all conditions 
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35 minutes ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

the agreement it would happen "eventually" was probably started and base shaped then,  but the exact implementation took a while as de were not sure the exact means to deploy the frame, the forums chatting about it in various capacities was constant daily thing 

Sorry, what? There was an official statement and agreement made in 2015. The fact that we didn't get Umbra until 2018 somehow changes that? So there was a final agreement in 2018 on Umbra? Haven't heard of it.

35 minutes ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

im only stating what de classifed it as , the models aka the mesh of the frames are in fact identical (also so is shadow stalker body , though they removed the arm blades) 

DE classified it as virtually identical, which is basically not 100% identical. You're stating that and you're also saying that Umbra becomes bound by legal agreement because it looks the same as Umbra Prime despite having a different name, different ability visuals and different mechanics.

35 minutes ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

not really speculation seemingly as there is no way to delete or reobtain it. rather rational that the conclusion of the talks made keeping a single umbra Excalibur per player as a condition.

Nope, it's speculation. Not adding Umbra/Skiajati to Simaris offering could very well be an overlook on DE's part simply because we can't sell them and DE didn't think anyone would want more upgrade/appearance slots and different polarities at once.

35 minutes ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

we also never got the umbra arm badge (i cant recall the name) and the umbra beast helm so far.

And it's very likely we won't ever get them. They're only available to Chinaframe founders and don't have real gameplay value. Just like Jade and Obsidian stuff belongs to consoles.

35 minutes ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

i explained that with comparable likeness part, they physically look the same so they are applied under the likeness clause  

They sold me a statue that looks exactly like Excalibur Umbra Prime. Shouldn't it be applied under the likeness clause as well? If looks is everything that matters.

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21 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

I'm almost MR 30, have done just about everything you can do with the game, have a ton of high-end min-max builds, and NEVER felt the need to push for more than 4 loadouts. And most people are in that same boat. Which as you might realize it, weakens your argument, and you presenting it as the only argument, by flooding the thread, just undermines the whole idea, instead of strengthening it.

I am mr 30 i have everything warframe could offer me and played all frames learned their weakness and abilities 
I learned how to mod each of them what mod combinations are most efficient and when its not worth to use forma for 15% strength or rage sacrificing something else
And yet i never used or felt need to even have half upgraded mods i only use either fully upgraded or in 1 case with inaros and limbo rank 0 Peculiar bloom
People tend to use rank 3 or 4 Fleeting Expertise (because of 175% efficiency cap) i never found that 15% efficiency giving any enough noticeable boost to have it in other Rank than 5 (which is max)
I also never seen any build that would require or need unbral mods i use umbral mods but never seen any warframe to require it to be efficient or good

And yet i would never refuse any1 privilege or option for going that extra froma for 15% of some stat or using half upgraded mods or even using/having in game umbra forma
Just because i dont use it or i just dont see a reason to have it in the game or even i believe its stupid or useless does not mean others should be locked out of that option or that its really useless and that alone is reason it should not exist


So i kinda dont understand your point here

 

19 minutes ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

 i tend to explain and try to discuss , i dont like arguing for the sake of it 

if i had to take a guess it would be the exact agreement  which only leyou and de know, we only get the abridged public version statment of what the result would be

so if the agreement had specific outlines for the likness and implementation then de had/has its hands tied 

so an example of  the specifics might be

(example)

  • excalibur umbra prime and all likeness there of ,are property of stararmor and are restricted in likeness deployment to global build
  • 1 excalibur Umbra per user is granted on completion of the special quest for obtainment
  • this frame cannot be deleted or re-obtained or removed 
  • this frame "excalibur umbra" will not have the exact same powers as "excalibur umbra prime "
  • the variant will be treated legally as a excalibur umbra prime and must comply will all conditions 


So my argument still stands
No one seen any part of agreement about not being able to have duplicate copies of umbra and all you or any1 else care to say about agreement will be speculations and misinformation (about the part you did not see if it exist)
So like i said i read here comments of ppl who hide their lack of real knowledge behind stories they made up and speculations
Knowing half of the story is not equal to knowing whole story

And from when arguing is something bad? (you describe it like it is) I and other ppl have arguments for something that we feel should be in the game you or any1 else shows arguments why it should not be in the game or why it cant
And that way we try to find some solutions or answer to that case


 

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27 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

I am mr 30 i have everything warframe could offer me and played all frames learned their weakness and abilities 
I learned how to mod each of them what mod combinations are most efficient and when its not worth to use forma for 15% strength or rage sacrificing something else
And yet i never used or felt need to even have half upgraded mods i only use either fully upgraded or in 1 case with inaros and limbo rank 0 Peculiar bloom
People tend to use rank 3 or 4 Fleeting Expertise (because of 175% efficiency cap) i never found that 15% efficiency giving any enough noticeable boost to have it in other Rank than 5 (which is max)
I also never seen any build that would require or need unbral mods i use umbral mods but never seen any warframe to require it to be efficient or good

And yet i would never refuse any1 privilege or option for going that extra froma for 15% of some stat or using half upgraded mods or even using/having in game umbra forma
Just because i dont use it or i just dont see a reason to have it in the game or even i believe its stupid or useless does not mean others should be locked out of that option or that its really useless and that alone is reason it should not exist


So i kinda dont understand your point here

 


So my argument still stands
No one seen any part of agreement about not being able to have duplicate copies of umbra and all you or any1 else care to say about agreement will be speculations and misinformation (about the part you did not see if it exist)
So like i said i read here comments of ppl who hide their lack of real knowledge behind stories they made up and speculations
Knowing half of the story is not equal to knowing whole story

And from when arguing is something bad? (you describe it like it is) I and other ppl have arguments for something that we feel should be in the game you or any1 else shows arguments why it should not be in the game or why it cant
And that way we try to find some solutions or answer to that case


 

i dont recall arguing or stating it is bad, as id literally flat out say that if i meant that, why i wouldn't want more? 

i simply just am explaining the factors and possible reason it is so , not demonizing it , but rather attempting explain and answer you to the best of my and others capability

The rational might be dumb or silly or whatever you take it as, it dosnt mean its not something to rationally consider 

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1 hour ago, Xaero said:

Sorry, what? There was an official statement and agreement made in 2015. The fact that we didn't get Umbra until 2018 somehow changes that? So there was a final agreement in 2018 on Umbra? Haven't heard of it.

DE classified it as virtually identical, which is basically not 100% identical. You're stating that and you're also saying that Umbra becomes bound by legal agreement because it looks the same as Umbra Prime despite having a different name, different ability visuals and different mechanics.

Nope, it's speculation. Not adding Umbra/Skiajati to Simaris offering could very well be an overlook on DE's part simply because we can't sell them and DE didn't think anyone would want more upgrade/appearance slots and different polarities at once.

And it's very likely we won't ever get them. They're only available to Chinaframe founders and don't have real gameplay value. Just like Jade and Obsidian stuff belongs to consoles.

They sold me a statue that looks exactly like Excalibur Umbra Prime. Shouldn't it be applied under the likeness clause as well? If looks is everything that matters.

 

  • its not so much that it wasnt a final agreement settled on but that it would be released to global. finalizing the method of deployment however took them time , that is a different aspect as the  release couldnt be via market, baro, ingame drop, ect so a special quest and story had to be done, then that story script leaked 2-3 times and caused them to rewrite the scripts and such
  • de can state and classify it however they want for the purposes they are allowed. name is literally the same  ,the prime as they even stated had to be removed as that part of the name per the agreement 
  • sounds like your speculating on that front , de could very well have purposefully omitted them by the same logic 
  • well with cross save technically the console exclusives could be used on pc (steve is looking into it and im hopeful) , that being said, some items of chinaframe are ingame such as trinity specters weapon, but users cant get it.
  • I also own the statue , noggle, tshirt ect via bundle, also and they had that pushed through a limited number run , same thing with HOD poster with umbra on it , shows that possibly de has a restricted allotment or has to negotiate for that.  (which sucks as I really want a Excalibur Umbra plushie and hoody .....) 

 

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2 minutes ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

i dont recall arguing or stating it is bad, as id literally flat out say that if i meant that, why i wouldn't want more? 

i simply just am explaining the factors and possible reason it is so , not demonizing it , but rather attempting explain and answer you to the best of my and others capability

The rational might be dumb or silly or whatever you take it as, it dosnt mean its not something to rationally consider 

1 point for you
My poor enrgrish let me believe "arguing" mean something else i just used google translator to see what it really means
I was assuming arguing mean exchanging arguments or having conversation supported with arguments from both sides
Seems it mean verbal fight to best what i can get from google translator

And anyway i do acknowledge that you try to give me answer with best of your knowledge 
But that dont change the fact that theory about something being in said agreement against us being able to have umbra available as duplicates/copy is just spreading misinformation and your own speculations
So you dont support your theory with facts but with arguments which fit you at particular moment
And if you dont understand how stupid it sounds then lets just assume that in same fashion said agreement contains a line "also its prohibited for de to let players have universal polarity on any other mod slots than stance or aura" sound stupid enough? Well guess how does your argument looks now

I am doing exact same thing stating that any real reason dont exist since i most likely (like we all) dont know full story that can exists out of our grasp
But in my case i am not making stuff up to justify my arguments

I remember in sherlock holmes movie a sentence he spoke like "but this way we would be changing the truth to fit the theory and not changing the theory to fit the truth" i feel like exactly that is happening here

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10 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

1 point for you
My poor enrgrish let me believe "arguing" mean something else i just used google translator to see what it really means
I was assuming arguing mean exchanging arguments or having conversation supported with arguments from both sides
Seems it mean verbal fight to best what i can get from google translator

And anyway i do acknowledge that you try to give me answer with best of your knowledge 
But that dont change the fact that theory about something being in said agreement against us being able to have umbra available as duplicates/copy is just spreading misinformation and your own speculations
So you dont support your theory with facts but with arguments which fit you at particular moment
And if you dont understand how stupid it sounds then lets just assume that in same fashion said agreement contains a line "also its prohibited for de to let players have universal polarity on any other mod slots than stance or aura" sound stupid enough? Well guess how does your argument looks now

I am doing exact same thing stating that any real reason dont exist since i most likely (like we all) dont know full story that can exists out of our grasp
But in my case i am not making stuff up to justify my arguments

I remember in sherlock holmes movie a sentence he spoke like "but this way we would be changing the truth to fit the theory and not changing the theory to fit the truth" i feel like exactly that is happening here

understandable,  translations can have issues and i tend to be robotic in my own expression when im simply mellow 

im simply someone who took all the data and put it in megathread(s) 

Umbra warframes [Discussion & Appreciation][*spoilers*] - General Discussion - Warframe Forums 

as to misinformation i am confused, I'm simply giving examples & possibilities and if you recall in prior post i did link official de statements in quotes and videos explaining things  

the "official wording of the agreement" between de and leyou isnt public knowledge , what we know is what we were told and thats what ive provided with info as to why they do what they do in regards to answer your question as this is a discussion .  you could simply ping or dm Rebecca if you wanted an offical source or 

i also expressed examples as to why its possible not directly stating this is a fact or truth

per their  devstream 58 DE staff stated the excalibur umbra prime was coming to global as excalibur umbra , the prime name is to be removed due to the agreement with leyou as will more umbras 

See the source image 

best way i can think explain it is this gif ^ is how the legality takes it 

 to be clear, i havent stated at all that we shouldn't have the ability to get umbra excal, skijiati , ect, in duplication if we wanted to , but that the possible reasoning is tied to such as I and others have stated. 

everything is speculation without an official de response , so on forums best you can really get out of this is what your fellow users can explain, if that makes sense

im not saying you have to accept it, free will and free thought is a thing 

 

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7 minutes ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

...

1st you try to hide behind the lore and when that dont work you try to hide behind legal issues bringing something in agreement which have parts as i understand no other than de even seen that some parts of it can be preventing us from having umbra as purchasable item in game

I do appreciate you sacrificing your time to try and explain why its just not there
But its just embarrassing how you change what is the real reason just to justify ur lack of real knowledge to a point you end up with line like "just ask de" <- that should be at the beginning of your 1st explanation

This would be allot easier if you would start with "well i dont know ask de to be sure but if i could guess i would say its because clem clem clem"
That would be honest and would make sense and what i see here is just sad

Really tank you for your time thank you for your effort but no thanks for your stories

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8 hours ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

its not so much that it wasnt a final agreement settled on but that it would be released to global. finalizing the method of deployment however took them time , that is a different aspect as the  release couldnt be via market, baro, ingame drop, ect so a special quest and story had to be done, then that story script leaked 2-3 times and caused them to rewrite the scripts and such

And it's irrelevant to the topic of agreement being made in 2015.

8 hours ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

de can state and classify it however they want for the purposes they are allowed. name is literally the same  ,the prime as they even stated had to be removed as that part of the name per the agreement 

Yeah, and why do you think they did that? Likely to make Umbra a different frame. I don't think DE could name Chinaframe's founder exclusive "Excalibur Prime", they had to add "Umbra" (and make more changes) to make the frame separate. Same thing happened with Umbra, no?

8 hours ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

sounds like your speculating on that front , de could very well have purposefully omitted them by the same logic 

Yeah, I am speculating as well. The difference is I don't present my speculations as facts.

8 hours ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

well with cross save technically the console exclusives could be used on pc (steve is looking into it and im hopeful) , that being said, some items of chinaframe are ingame such as trinity specters weapon, but users cant get it.

Regarding exclusive skins, we'll see when we get there. As for the weapon, it does have real gameplay value, and DE definitely should release it in the global build.

8 hours ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

I also own the statue , noggle, tshirt ect via bundle, also and they had that pushed through a limited number run , same thing with HOD poster with umbra on it , shows that possibly de has a restricted allotment or has to negotiate for that.  (which sucks as I really want a Excalibur Umbra plushie and hoody .....) 

You know what else was "limited edition"? Excalibur statue. I wonder when DE make Excalibur a starter frame exclusive, delete other means of acquiring it and take away all its additional copies.

https://www.warframe.com/news/limited-edition-excalibur-statue-coming-soon

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23 hours ago, Xaero said:

I doubt we'll be getting more cases like Umbra, but if there really are plans on adding more, then yeah, it's better to rework the current upgrade/appearance system. I certainly wouldn't mind that.

I'm pretty far from programming, so I might be wrong, but I think these bugs could be avoided if the game considered Umbra/Skiajati from the quest and Umbra/Skiajati from Simaris different entities disconnected from each other.

Maybe owning several frames was a bonus objective? Who knows. Yet the fact is we can own several frames of a type in all cases besides Umbra/Skiajati (and maybe founder items, not sure if DE made them repurchasable for founders, if they didn't, they certainly should), and it has its uses. And allowing the same for Umbra/Skiajati would definitely benefit me and players like myself if there are any:

We just cant know. Umbra alone is already a big enough change that would take resources that'd be better spent elsewhere, like reworking the system that currently doesnt support real multi-use with a single frame. Though it already nearly does. Plus this would also only cater to a small part of the community, so even more reason why it shouldnt be a thing over something that would be more widespread.

Sure, the bugs can be avoided, but what is there to guarantee one of the two wont impact the other due to bugs in the coding? We already have small bugs popping up from time to time when unrelated systems have been changed.

That is all true, but maybe DE decided not to, simply because of the unique nature and sentience of Umbra. It is simply a possible reasons, I'm not arguing if it is right or wrong, I'm simply hinting that it is up to DE since it is in the lore nature of the frame, while all others are assembly line products.

21 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

Nothing absolutely nothing would happen if umbra would be available for purchase in game for those who already own it one way or another
But for some reason you seem to have urge need of defending against that idea like it would do you some kind of harm? i just dont get it

You are reading into what I'm saying waaaay too much. All I did was give you an answer as to why it might be that Umbra isnt on Simaris, in addition to not being built like other frames etc. You took that answer and made it bigger than what it was since you seem to be right over something where you cannot be right or wrong. You asked for reasons and I gave you those possible reasons.

No one is defending anything either, since we dont know the real reason behind why it is like it is. For me I'm simply OK with it if it is due to lore reasons since Umbra cannot be sold and he isnt an assembly line frame, so it just makes sense out of a lore perspective.

And since you dont feel any need yourself to get an extra Umbra I'm not quite sure why you started the complaint to begin with, since you cannot sell him and will never have to pick up a new one. Hence why your very odd explaination about building him and transfering the old ones mind doesnt make sense either, since you'd still be stuck with 1 in the end.

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28 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You asked for reasons and I gave you those possible reasons.

 

15 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

So my argument still stands
No one seen any part of agreement about not being able to have duplicate copies of umbra and all you or any1 else care to say about agreement will be speculations and misinformation (about the part you did not see if it exist)
So like i said i read here comments of ppl who hide their lack of real knowledge behind stories they made up and speculations
Knowing half of the story is not equal to knowing whole story

You are 100% accurate
I asked for "reasons" not speculations not made up stories not "well i guess" but the facts
If you dont know something its better to stay quiet than spread misinformation
Or at least start your speculations with "i dont know but if could guess..."
That would be way more honest than saying "well because lore or well because legal issues well because its unique well because you cant sell it"
How about "well because i dont know i wont try to spread misinformation"?

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5 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

You are 100% accurate
I asked for "reasons" not speculations not made up stories not "well i guess" but the facts
If you dont know something its better to stay quiet than spread misinformation
Or at least start your speculations with "i dont know but if could guess..."
That would be way more honest than saying "well because lore or well because legal issues well because its unique well because you cant sell it"
How about "well because i dont know i wont try to spread misinformation"?

So why did you start to argue, because what I said was.

On 2021-01-06 at 2:30 PM, SneakyErvin said:

I'd say the reason why Umbra isnt on Simaris is because he is sentient and unique, all other frames are just meatbag assembly line copies. And since there is no way to sell him they can stick to the lore. Same deal with Skiajati.

That is the same as saying "these are possible reasons I can think of".

And misinformation would mean that someone stated something as facts, which I havent done, so why claim I did? Argumentative personality or just having a need to be right over something you cannot be right or wrong over with the current info at hand? Wouldnt that mean you are spreading misinformation to begin with, since you didnt know Umbra couldnt be sold and then went on and complained about that being "stupid"?

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2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

So why did you start to argue, because what I said was.

That is the same as saying "these are possible reasons I can think of".

And misinformation would mean that someone stated something as facts, which I havent done, so why claim I did? Argumentative personality or just having a need to be right over something you cannot be right or wrong over with the current info at hand? Wouldnt that mean you are spreading misinformation to begin with, since you didnt know Umbra couldnt be sold and then went on and complained about that being "stupid"?

I am happy when im proven wrong because then i know i learn something
But its not about wrong or right

So lets go with example like you did so maybe you get the idea of the problem

- mom why i dont fly up into the air if space have no gravity
- because ur fat

or 

- mom why i dont fly up into the air if space have no gravity
- I have no idea i can only assume its because nutella runs trough ur veins 


See that subtle difference? 
A TIP - nutella is not part of the difference

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