Slash Procs

[Digressive]

Hi all,

If you continue to escalate and insult each other this thread is going to get locked. Just a heads up.

Thanks

[z3us32610]

On 2021-01-05 at 7:49 PM, TnaneverRisen said:

Finally a person that understands.

It seems that people are having trouble understanding both the proc damage amount and the damage applied ignore armor, not simply the damage applied....for a damage type that's supposedly specifically weak against armor - AKA, bad design.  AKA, a bug.

I never knew that but it makes sense why the slash damage would do eff all damage against an armored enemy but the bleed procs starting draining their health like crazy.

It seems like the initial bleed proc calculation should be reduced by armor, then the actual bleed ticks ignore it. That would be much more thematically consistent.

I've heard Scott @[DE]Grineeer grumble about how some of the status calculations are made and I would bet this would be near the top of his list for things to change. It would also likely precede another overhaul of status calculations in general.

[Graavarg]

1 hour ago, z3us32610 said:

It seems like the initial bleed proc calculation should be reduced by armor, then the actual bleed ticks ignore it. That would be much more thematically consistent.

That is one possible solution. Another is basing it on Slash damage component (only).

I also think the short duration (6 sec) is part of the problem, since it results in a need to compress "enough damage" into the 6 damage ticks (of which you can have an unlimited amount with Bleed). There is no real need to limit a status effect to 6 seconds, apart from the psychological "need for speed" in the game (including killing enemies "fast"). And since the general idea of actually having the different status procs behave differently has been raised in this discussion (and I think most agree with that premise, including me) one way to further differentiate Bleed from the others is increasing the duration, while fixing (nerfing) the damage per tick. An elegant solution could be to remove the separate stacking mechanism and change it into a "add to the timer" function (a target could have only one Bleed proc going, but the duration  would be affected by additional Bleed procs).

What makes Bleed so powerful is a combination of:

• that the procs stack as SEPARATE damage instances = every proc makes the target "bleed more"
• that the damage calculation includes ALL base damage (also including Impact, Puncture and other inherent damage)
• that the damage amount is affected by CRIT levels & multipliers
• that it BYPASSES ARMOR (by being True Damage)
• that you can proc it BOTH FROM STATUS (with your Slash damage component x status chance) AND FROM CRIT (Hunter Munitions: 100% crit chance => 30% of your projectiles/bullets proc Bleed), and even use both together

There is nothing basically wrong with any of the above, when you look at them "alone" (except maybe the combining of all damage types when calculating a Slash-based proc, but that is how procs work now). It is the combination of them all together that makes the current op builds possible. And it is not rocket science either, anyone with a basic understanding of how damage currently works should be able to conclude both that Bleed procs have the potential for "op-ness" and how to achieve it (weapon, mods, abilities, arcanes, etc.). But the real problem is that nothing else gets even remotely close to this.

[TheBrsrkr]

Why would I "fix" armor if there is literally one thing that breaks it? Why would I not just fix the broken thing? Armor is there as damage reduction which is necessary for what DE calls difficulty. If one damage type ignores everything about this, it would be easier and make much more sense to just nerf the damage type than buff everything else to ignore something I didn't want ignored in the first place or change the way the entire game deals with Damage Reduction. 

[redeyedtreefrog]

the issue is much less that slash damage is too strong and much more that most other DoTs are too weak. Slash offers a viable option to deal with heavily armored enemies without having to actually strip the armor via a corrosive/heat build or other means; it serves a similar niche to toxin damage, which bypasses shields/shield-gates(albeit at the cost of not being able to use viral damage on most weapons). The biggest outlier is probably gas, which doesn't bypass shields like toxin and stacking multiple procs only increases the size of its AoE, not the strength.

[deothor]

slash proc damage should be related to targets current or max health (or its endurance which is a mix of its armor & hp), rather than weapons damage. It'd make more sense tbh.

Same with puncture.

[TnaneverRisen]

11 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Why would I "fix" armor if there is literally one thing that breaks it? Why would I not just fix the broken thing? Armor is there as damage reduction which is necessary for what DE calls difficulty. If one damage type ignores everything about this, it would be easier and make much more sense to just nerf the damage type than buff everything else to ignore something I didn't want ignored in the first place or change the way the entire game deals with Damage Reduction. 

It's because a lot of people in this thread whine about even seeing it mentioned that slash procs should be comparable with other DOT status effects, because they can't stand the thought of their singular build style having to be modified.  They'd rather keep slash procs magically bypassing any meaningful damage reduction, making balance practically impossible, because they clearly aren't interested in gameplay balance.

[Proscriptor]

This is still a thread about how slash procs should be the same as toxin procs.

[TnaneverRisen]

13 hours ago, Proscriptor said:

This is still a thread about how slash procs should be the same as toxin procs.

Nope.  Stop spamming lies here.  Thanks.

[Proscriptor]

 you can't tell me what to do. request denied. 

On 2021-01-06 at 8:08 PM, TnaneverRisen said:

I don't need to figure out what to do with the toxin proc.  There's no issue with the suggestion that bleed should have to take armor into account.  Toxin already has different bonuses from slash against different health types.

You've created some standard of "they must be different" that I don't care about, and given how little the differences matter in practice, I suspect most others don't care either.

If the fact that toxin and slash have different bonuses against different health types isn't different enough for you, here's a random idea to help: toxin procs could last 8 seconds instead of 6, and bleed procs could lower melee speed.  Don't like it?  Then go come up with something else that satisfies your requirement.

 

this is evidence that you want bleed to be mechanically the same as the toxin proc

with a superficial difference that "bleed procs lower melee speed" that makes no sense whatsoever

people wasting their time on reading this thread should know what it's about

[TnaneverRisen]

8 hours ago, Proscriptor said:

 you can't tell me what to do. request denied. 

this is evidence that you want bleed to be mechanically the same as the toxin proc

with a superficial difference that "bleed procs lower melee speed" that makes no sense whatsoever

people wasting their time on reading this thread should know what it's about

For the last time - I never said I wanted them to be the same, I gave a suggestion for them to be even more different, and I literally don't care either way. 

[Xzorn]

On 2021-01-07 at 7:52 AM, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

While armor isn't an issue in low levels, it's still possible at a certain level for equipment that is modded for hundreds of thousands to millions of damage to hit with a measly 100ish points of damage.

 

It's a common misconception that Armor is a problem at higher levels. Even before the Armor scaling was nerfed.

Armor is essentially either never a problem or always a problem depending how you approach it.

In the old system Corrosive would do %eHP damage per proc. Higher the Armor value bigger the eHP hit. You'd have to start jumping 100's of levels to get 1 proc of difference before the Armored enemy would red-line and you really only needed 2/3 of those procs before they'd go down anyways.

The new system is similar but less impactful and limited to the original Armor value. At the same time Health doesn't scale anywhere near the values it used to so overall when using Status Corrosive or Corrosive + Heat Armor still doesn't do much to kill times and is quite faster compared to the previous system.

It's only when the player attempts status or damage types which are not good against armor where it becomes a problem hence the earlier statement of it's either never a problem or always a problem. Back in the day a lvl 350 Napalm would have 69,894 Armor and still melt if you had the right status triggers.

The difference it would seem now is that due to nerfing enemy health scaling in addition to armor scaling Viral + Slash / Double dip pure Slash wins all the time because they're still a product of our modded base damage which has always been way too high. Enemy Health no longer climbs to the level it used to where as before it would depend on the weapon's proc rates and weights because what you really felt before has the raw HP catching up to our damage output.

As my original post said. I feel they just managed to somehow make the damage system worse.

TLTR: They made Slash Status a problem because they nerfed enemy HP scaling against our ever growing damage output.