Hydroid Needs Love

[z3us32610 553]

On 2021-01-05 at 8:12 PM, (XBOX)DShinShoryuken said:

This seems to always pop up from players that do not know how to play him.

He has the best passive on the game

His powers are to work collectively to get the showing of having mastered him

Learn him and he is nearly unkillable

I do have a question- am i the only person that recalls he used to be able to have 3 actions of his 4 going at the same time or am i from a different universe where that was the norm?

Garuda would disagree about Hydroid having the best passive.

[EdinaMonsoon 447]

i think his 3 should be deployable rather than becoming a pond himself. its very slow and interrupts the flow of gameplay

[killerJoke66 485]

On 2021-01-06 at 7:12 AM, (XBOX)DShinShoryuken said:

This seems to always pop up from players that do not know how to play him.

He has the best passive on the game

His powers are to work collectively to get the showing of having mastered him

Learn him and he is nearly unkillable

I do have a question- am i the only person that recalls he used to be able to have 3 actions of his 4 going at the same time or am i from a different universe where that was the norm?

if you call having rng based crowd control best kit in the game , your state of mind is  unsalvagable , im sorry  . 

also every warframe except inaros is technically unkillable nowadays with the shield gating focused prio builds , your point of argument do also flop .

Edited January 7 by killerJoke66

[killerJoke66 485]

21 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Hydroid is a high skill cap frame with some unfortunate aspects to his kit in place to balance how powerful undertow really is.

 

you mean the ability that even if you min-max it , it kills high level enemies using it with 1 + its augment in 10-12 seconds ?  

in 10 seconds you can whoop tilesets at high levels with certain frames and with most melees . lets drop the undertow op wagon a bit here .

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk 352]

On 2021-01-05 at 4:15 PM, _4shes said:

It's a very cool concept for a frame. He's just a bit slow and clunky. His 4 and 3 could use a bit of a touch up. He has his uses and good augments but he's kinda outclassed and forgotten by better CC and armor stripping frames.  Any suggestions or is he perfect just the way he is?

I did suggest awhile back about potentially integrating Tidal Surge into Hydroid's rolls like Limbo has dodging into Rift, which would free up a button for a new ability.

Also, what is love?

Edited January 7 by (PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk

[Padre_Akais 7,867]

3 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

you mean the ability that even if you min-max it , it kills high level enemies using it with 1 + its augment in 10-12 seconds ?  

in 10 seconds you can whoop tilesets at high levels with certain frames and with most melees . lets drop the undertow op wagon a bit here .

Those 10 seconds are irrelevant... Tons of things can throw out that much (and so much more) damage but few of them can:

• completely shield the player from any damage at the same time
• cc
• stealth + stealth damage
• Invoke pure damage
• Has i-frames
• Can be weaved into another ability that also has i-frames
• Sets other players up to damage enemies without worrying about return fire

You are, of course, welcome to your opinions on Hydroid's and Undertow's value/impact—That said, there really isn't much debate to be had on it being why Hydroid's abilities and stats are balanced the way they are currently.

Put simply, the player that's gotten good at using Surge and Undertow doesn't have to worry about getting hit and there's very little they can't lock down unless it's designed to not be locked down.

 My point (which I think you missed) is that it shouldn't be the only way to play Hydroid... Even if that means Undertow becomes an optional ability with new ones added empowering new playstyles.

Kvetching about "If it's OP" in a game where so many things already are is something I'll leave to you and yours to worry about.

[killerJoke66 485]

2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Those 10 seconds are irrelevant... Tons of things can throw out that much (and so much more) damage but few of them can:

• completely shield the player from any damage at the same time
• cc
• stealth + stealth damage
• Invoke pure damage
• Has i-frames
• Can be weaved into another ability that also has i-frames
• Sets other players up to damage enemies without worrying about return fire

You are, of course, welcome to your opinions on Hydroid's and Undertow's value/impact—That said, there really isn't much debate to be had on it being why Hydroid's abilities and stats are balanced the way they are currently.

Put simply, the player that's gotten good at using Surge and Undertow doesn't have to worry about getting hit and there's very little they can't lock down unless it's designed to not be locked down.

 My point (which I think you missed) is that it shouldn't be the only way to play Hydroid... Even if that means Undertow becomes an optional ability with new ones added empowering new playstyles.

Kvetching about "If it's OP" in a game where so many things already are is something I'll leave to you and yours to worry about.

you are talking about undertow  in a hyperbole , listing what an ability can do and without any comparison to other frames' abilites , not to mention undertow has anti-synergy with hydroid's ultimate . 

If an ability is so strong in a brainstorming session(not in actuality)  that DE has to make it so that it doesnt synergizes with hydroid's most used ability , why they created that in the first place , one wonders . 

[MontyCulligan 130]

On 2021-01-05 at 10:31 PM, (PSN)Mofojokers said:

Forums < Feedback < Warframes.

 

I don't think this is true. I started a post about a suggestion to change Loki's passive there, and the Mod moved it to General Discussion.

My take was that Feedback must be related to something DE is actively working on? i.e. you are giving feedback to a somewhat recent change they have made? Rather than an older existing frame.

[Padre_Akais 7,867]

32 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

you are talking about undertow  in a hyperbole , listing what an ability can do and without any comparison to other frames' abilites , not to mention undertow has anti-synergy with hydroid's ultimate . 

No offense, I don't think the word hyperbole means what you think it does...  What I said about Undertow are simple facts anyone who is familiar with Hydroid should actually know.

Likewise, The fact that his 4 and 3 literally work inside each other is the literal opposite of "anti-synergy".

42 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

If an ability is so strong in a brainstorming session(not in actuality)  that DE has to make it so that it doesnt synergizes with hydroid's most used ability , why they created that in the first place , one wonders . 

Was this news to you? 

[killerJoke66 485]

2 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

No offense, I don't think the word hyperbole means what you think it does...  What I said about Undertow are simple facts anyone who is familiar with Hydroid should actually know.

Likewise, The fact that his 4 and 3 literally work inside each other is the literal opposite of "anti-synergy".

Was this news to you? 

last time i checked it didnt work , if you say otherwise you need to show proof .

[Troposphere6 402]

3 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

last time i checked it didnt work , if you say otherwise you need to show proof .

Straight from the wiki under the undertow section.

Ability Synergy:

• Tempest Barrage can damage submerged enemies within Undertow.  Corroding Barrage can also proc  Corrosive on submerged enemies.
• Tidal Surge allows Hydroid to remain submerged in Undertow and travel in waveform for half the normal distance.
  • Undertow will not drain additional energy when Hydroid moves via Tidal Surge.
  • Enemies previously submerged in Undertow will be pulled along by Tidal Surge.
• Tentacle Swarm centers the kraken on Undertow and spawns tentacles inside the pool. Charged cast can extend tentacle spawn radius outside Undertow.
  • Tentacles will capture enemies when they emerge from Undertow.
  • Tentacle Swarm deals 200% damage when cast from Undertow.

From the tentacle swarm section of the wiki

Ability Synergy: Can be cast while in  Undertow liquid form to center Tentacle Swarm on the pool.

• Quick cast causes all tentacles to spawn inside Undertow's radius, while charged cast extends the spawn radius outside of Undertow.
• Tentacle  Magnetic damage and True damage per second deal 200% damage when cast from Undertow, including tentacles that spawn outside Undertow.

[killerJoke66 485]

25 minutes ago, Troposphere6 said:

Straight from the wiki under the undertow section.

Ability Synergy:

• Tempest Barrage can damage submerged enemies within Undertow.  Corroding Barrage can also proc  Corrosive on submerged enemies.
• Tidal Surge allows Hydroid to remain submerged in Undertow and travel in waveform for half the normal distance.
  • Undertow will not drain additional energy when Hydroid moves via Tidal Surge.
  • Enemies previously submerged in Undertow will be pulled along by Tidal Surge.
• Tentacle Swarm centers the kraken on Undertow and spawns tentacles inside the pool. Charged cast can extend tentacle spawn radius outside Undertow.
  • Tentacles will capture enemies when they emerge from Undertow.
  • Tentacle Swarm deals 200% damage when cast from Undertow.

From the tentacle swarm section of the wiki

Ability Synergy: Can be cast while in  Undertow liquid form to center Tentacle Swarm on the pool.

• Quick cast causes all tentacles to spawn inside Undertow's radius, while charged cast extends the spawn radius outside of Undertow.
• Tentacle  Magnetic damage and True damage per second deal 200% damage when cast from Undertow, including tentacles that spawn outside Undertow.

damage synergy is already there and its irrelevant , but you cant grab to loot enemies that are inside of undertow effect as far as i know .  
(edit ; i had the change the text  from onwards , because apparently couldnt read correct the first time) 

''Tentacles will capture enemies when they emerge from Undertow'' .  the build you go if you want to capitalize on the 4th ability build is that you go minimum range so that your puddle range is so small it cant even grab enemies much to combo it with your 4 , and even if you put some range or neutral range on hydroid his 4 cc becomes heavily unreliable and high elevel enemies can kill you and you also lose enemy aggro when you go undertow so they dont run into the tentacle . 

There you have it.

Edited January 7 by killerJoke66

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom 1,276]

3 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

• completely shield the player from any damage at the same time
• cc

Yea that's pretty neat, except Undertows CC also disables your movement,

and Tentacle Swarm's CC is unpleasant as it makes enemies an annoyance to kill. Tidal wave suffers from Pull's syndrome of flinging enemies. Tempest Barrage's CC is alright.

4 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

stealth + stealth damage

Undertow can stealth I guess, but Operator does the same thing but better. Also stealth damage only with Zenistar, and I'm not sure that even works anymore.

4 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Invoke pure damage

Tentacle Swarm's damage true damage isn't exactly much to be proud of. 200 dam/sec isn't exactly stunning.

4 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

• Has i-frames
• Can be weaved into another ability that also has i-frames

Both of which prevent you from doing anything really. Tidal Surge is a mediocre movement ability with a ragdoll, neat but not terribly useful.
Undertow is so-so as a damage ability.

4 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Sets other players up to damage enemies without worrying about return fire

So does any frame with a decent ranged CC.

So sure you can do a lot of stuff during those 10 seconds, but are they really worthwhile is a different question.
 

[killerJoke66 485]

Regardless of the previous undertow and tenctacle swarm synergy discussion ,  Hydroid deffinately needs a better kit at least in terms of good and reliable crowd control . and '''''maybe''''' to be modernized a little , from being a stationary playstle to a mobile one ,  and to not rely on rng tentacles and a gimmicky puddle to stay relevant .

Edited January 7 by killerJoke66

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken 1,277]

8 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

if you call having rng based crowd control best kit in the game , your state of mind is  unsalvagable , im sorry  . 

also every warframe except inaros is technically unkillable nowadays with the shield gating focused prio builds , your point of argument do also flop .

I am happy to have an unsalvageable mind

Means that in a game filled with players all about the flash and dps, i can relax and enjoy the fluid motions and playstyle i see in the game. I am not in this game for red crits or doing 6 hour runs on 1 mission. I play to have fun by experience. Hydroid is one such frame that gives different play than all the other frames in game. 

If you are in the mindset such as  many players are, you want power and energy. Not stealth or diverse combos or using all aspects of the arsenal. You want DPS and red crits. You want META to be the way. You find what is OP and use it. And that is cool- the game gives that in spades. It also supplies other means for other ways to play. Hydroid fits that.

I use Hydroids passive with missions that drain energy such as Nihgtmares. No energy means i canno use powers all the time. Idont use energy regaining Void Demon stuff since i can play without power using Hydroid (or as You pointed out any frame since they are all immortal). Using his slam with combos, his passive more than works fine. It deploys enough to keep my guns and life with supplies, controls enough areas that i can enjoy the fight, and makes the game a beast i keep coming back to since i am not a "pro" player that has mastered every strategy in the game yet. I have 426/609 things maxed out but my mindset lets me see that each frame and weapon does have its place. 

Hydroid may be on the low end of players radar but no matter what, some frame will always be low with an ever expanding roster and players coming and going. If he was in the top, another would be at the bottom and so on. Players are a versatile bunch and the frames appeal different to each. Hydroid players get Hydroid in varied ways. Aint nothing wrong with that...or as you said, that mindset is wrong. 

Guess imma be wrong so i may be myself

Cheers 🥂

[killerJoke66 485]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)DShinShoryuken said:

I am happy to have an unsalvageable mind

Means that in a game filled with players all about the flash and dps, i can relax and enjoy the fluid motions and playstyle i see in the game. I am not in this game for red crits or doing 6 hour runs on 1 mission. I play to have fun by experience. Hydroid is one such frame that gives different play than all the other frames in game. 

If you are in the mindset such as  many players are, you want power and energy. Not stealth or diverse combos or using all aspects of the arsenal. You want DPS and red crits. You want META to be the way. You find what is OP and use it. And that is cool- the game gives that in spades. It also supplies other means for other ways to play. Hydroid fits that.

I use Hydroids passive with missions that drain energy such as Nihgtmares. No energy means i canno use powers all the time. Idont use energy regaining Void Demon stuff since i can play without power using Hydroid (or as You pointed out any frame since they are all immortal). Using his slam with combos, his passive more than works fine. It deploys enough to keep my guns and life with supplies, controls enough areas that i can enjoy the fight, and makes the game a beast i keep coming back to since i am not a "pro" player that has mastered every strategy in the game yet. I have 426/609 things maxed out but my mindset lets me see that each frame and weapon does have its place. 

Hydroid may be on the low end of players radar but no matter what, some frame will always be low with an ever expanding roster and players coming and going. If he was in the top, another would be at the bottom and so on. Players are a versatile bunch and the frames appeal different to each. Hydroid players get Hydroid in varied ways. Aint nothing wrong with that...or as you said, that mindset is wrong. 

Guess imma be wrong so i may be myself

Cheers 🥂

glad you enjoy what you are doing i have no say to that , what bothers me is that refraining it into the public that hydroid is a fine frame when he is not objectively , he fails at a level where he is supposed to excel at which is locking down enemies .  

His 1 does ragdoll effect , his 2nd ability too , his 3 is .............. lets say its there , 4 is another ragdolly effect 

you realize i critize it from the point of ''cc'' right ? are we okay with the statement that ragdoll is a bad cc effect ? if so knowing hydroid not being a damage frame or not even being known as an all-rounder , all there is left but cc .... following this logic we can safely say that hydroid lacks in control of what he is supposed to do and not efficently so .

[killerJoke66 485]

Im not gonna sit here and pretend some people's  complecancy towards certain  frame designs getting in the way of a quality of improvement on said frames is fine and dandy . If youre enjoying keep doing that is fine , but saying it is fine objectively is wrong when it comes to hydroid , he is just not viable . not for cc'ing , deffinatly not in the damage department , hes not a good jack of all trades , he doesnt bring utility to the room like wisp and like frames do , he is not a go to even in looting since khora and nekros does it reliably and faster , what else is there to say here ..

Edited January 7 by killerJoke66

[(PSN)Mofojokers 4,992]

2 hours ago, MontyCulligan said:

I don't think this is true. I started a post about a suggestion to change Loki's passive there, and the Mod moved it to General Discussion.

My take was that Feedback must be related to something DE is actively working on? i.e. you are giving feedback to a somewhat recent change they have made? Rather than an older existing frame.

Unlikely, a post moved to general means it wasn't classed as feedback. It's for us the community to just chat with each other not for the development team.

[Padre_Akais 7,867]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Yea that's pretty neat, except Undertows CC also disables your movement,

and Tentacle Swarm's CC is unpleasant as it makes enemies an annoyance to kill. Tidal wave suffers from Pull's syndrome of flinging enemies. Tempest Barrage's CC is alright. etc

No offense...

Your arguments cobble together a mass of stuff that either isn't actually true (Undertow barring movement, Undertow's lacking stealth, Swarm being the only source of true damage) or present a matter of preference ("is annoying", "is useless") and presents these things as a matter of relevant comparison. They simply aren't... Yes, tons of stuff in the game can do some of what I noted. Very little does everything I listed...

What your comments do best, imo,  is highlight this expectation to have what is a high movement melee/cc frame actually hunker in Undertow as so many think it's his only ability and then complain that the frame is weak.

The question, in case you missed it, deals moreso with the notion that DE is balancing the frame around how powerful that ability is.

You can say this isn't the case if you want but we have enough examples of the same thing in the game with other frames for years now.

Asserting that other options exist doesn't do much to the balance of the frame itself.

You are entirely welcome to your opinions on the matter and we'll probably align on some of them tbh as I think Hydroid needs tuning. That said, I don't see DE doing much to tune Hydroid while leaving Undertow as-is. There are other options that don't involve nerfing Undertow but open the door for more playstyles than the narrow range currently on offer.

1 hour ago, killerJoke66 said:

Regardless of the previous undertow and tenctacle swarm synergy discussion ,  Hydroid deffinately needs a better kit at least in terms of good and reliable crowd control . and '''''maybe''''' to be modernized a little , from being a stationary playstle to a mobile one ,  and to not rely on rng tentacles and a gimmicky puddle to stay relevant .

That's something we can agree on...

I don't see it happening without offering options that aren't Undertow though. 

[Krankbert 1,282]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb (XBOX)DShinShoryuken:

If you are in the mindset such as  many players are, you want power and energy. Not stealth or diverse combos or using all aspects of the arsenal. You want DPS and red crits. You want META to be the way. You find what is OP and use it. And that is cool- the game gives that in spades. It also supplies other means for other ways to play. Hydroid fits that.

Why do you even bother responding to a discussion about what is good in the game when this is how you think? You must know that you couldn't possibly be able to give a meaningful contribution because you reject the entire basis of the conversation. The "Meta" is literally just about what's good and what isn't. That's all it is. It's fine to not care about the Meta. It's completely nonsensical to pretend not to care about the Meta and then to have discussions about how good something is.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb (XBOX)DShinShoryuken:

I use Hydroids passive with missions that drain energy such as Nihgtmares. No energy means i canno use powers all the time. Idont use energy regaining Void Demon stuff since i can play without power using Hydroid (or as You pointed out any frame since they are all immortal). Using his slam with combos, his passive more than works fine. It deploys enough to keep my guns and life with supplies, controls enough areas that i can enjoy the fight, and makes the game a beast i keep coming back to since i am not a "pro" player that has mastered every strategy in the game yet. I have 426/609 things maxed out but my mindset lets me see that each frame and weapon does have its place. 

Hildryn. Inaros. Lavos. You declare Hydroid's passive to be "the best in the entire game" because of a niche mission type that Hydroid isn't even particularly good for.

[killerJoke66 485]

2 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

 

I don't see it happening without offering options that aren't Undertow though. 

glad that we agree on that , though imo de should ditch undertow completely to give him a fair kit  .

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken 1,277]

27 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Why do you even bother responding to a discussion about what is good in the game when this is how you think? You must know that you couldn't possibly be able to give a meaningful contribution because you reject the entire basis of the conversation. The "Meta" is literally just about what's good and what isn't. That's all it is. It's fine to not care about the Meta. It's completely nonsensical to pretend not to care about the Meta and then to have discussions about how good something is.

Hildryn. Inaros. Lavos. You declare Hydroid's passive to be "the best in the entire game" because of a niche mission type that Hydroid isn't even particularly good for.

Had a response to all you said....

Deleted it and sent this instead

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom 1,276]

3 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Your arguments cobble together a mass of stuff that either isn't actually true (Undertow barring movement, Undertow's lacking stealth, Swarm being the only source of true damage) or present a matter of preference ("is annoying", "is useless") and presents these things as a matter of relevant comparison. They simply aren't... Yes, tons of stuff in the game can do some of what I noted. Very little does everything I listed...

Undertow disables jumping, bullet jumping, rolling, sprinting, and heavily reduces walk speed. So while you can still move, it essentially disables movement.
I acknowledged Undertow can function as a discount stealth ability, but every frame has an option to stealth like that by virtue of operator. When I tried to get enemies to take stealth damage, I couldn't. As for true damage, what other of his abilities have it beside Swarm? I'd like to know.

And being able to do all those things doesn't mean much really. Lets look back at that list.

• completely shield the player from any damage at the same time
• has i-frames
• Can be weaved into another ability that also has i-frames
  Essentially all same thing, so we'll bundle them together.
  Not many frames can do that, but use Vazarin and any frame has access to complete damage mitigation, one which allows you to do anything you want too
• cc
• Sets other players up to damage enemies without worrying about return fire
  Same effect pretty much, so we'll put them together
  We'd be here all day if I listed all the frames that have a hard CC ability
• stealth + stealth damage
  Discount stealth which operator can already do, so its universal. Stealth damage I can't get to work, would like to see it in action
• Invoke pure damage
  He can do true damage, but its about as impressive as me saying I can play Jingle Bells on a piano. Not very impressive

So yes he may be one of the few that can do all of these together, but what's that worth if its a poor job of each, and the ones he doesn't do poorly have a universal option that does it.

[Krankbert 1,282]

Gerade eben schrieb (XBOX)DShinShoryuken:

Had a response to all you said....

Deleted it and sent this instead

Well, it's about as useful as your other comments.

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken 1,277]

4 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Well, it's about as useful as your other comments.

As long as you are right and others are wrong

Glad i made your life better to be superior

Cheers