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vor 2 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)DShinShoryuken:

As long as you are right and others are wrong

Glad i made your life better to be superior

Cheers

Have fun wallowing in your victim-complex. You chose not to respond. You know why. Live with your choice.

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1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

That's something we can agree on...

I don't see it happening without offering options that aren't Undertow though. 

At least for Undertow, I can see DE making it so you can move around while it's active normally. Think of it like a variant to Ember's Immolation. Hydroid can leave the puddle, having a puddle at half of the size (or half the damage, either or honestly) hang around and drag enemies in autonomously, but the drain is doubled. While Hydroid is running around, he's mostly made of water, so he can receive a Damage Reduction bonus (we'll say 95% like Mesa, he kind of needs it). Now you can shoot enemies in your own puddle and cast your other abilities while Undertow is doing its own thing.

I'd also personally change Tentacle Swarm so that it deals Undertow's damage as well, and of course allow us to hit the Tentacle and change its damage to that element, while making our damage transfer to the enemy as long as the Tentacle is damaged (so hit one tentacle, you hit the enemy attached, and now every enemy tentacle'd is affected by the same damage due to Undertow working with it).

Hydroid of course needs a lot more work, like an actually worthwhile Passive and a scaling factor to Tempest Barrage (I imagine making it so it increases its damage by 25% per hit would work just fine, so hitting a ton of enemies will make it scale up crazy fast), but hopefully that would be enough to make Undertow more of an active ability without changing the base ability too drastically.

Edited by (XBOX)Graysmog
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1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

So while you can still move, it essentially disables movement.

Bit of a reach there given that it presumes the only form of movement in the game is parkour... Either way, it's still amounts to an assertion on your part that isn't actually true by your own admission, doesn't it?

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

I acknowledged Undertow can function as a discount stealth ability

How much of a discount? What does a discount look like as it relates to stealth? Discount stealth would be closer to Operator Stealth or the stealth gotten from a select arcane or weapon because they are generic and available to all.

But both of these comments from you still prove what I said earlier...

2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Your arguments cobble together a mass of stuff that either isn't actually true (Undertow barring movement, Undertow's lacking stealth, Swarm being the only source of true damage) or present a matter of preference ("is annoying", "is useless") and presents these things as a matter of relevant comparison.

That said, My opinion is that you won't see a meaningful buff to Hydroid until they figure out how to keep it from becoming OP... That will be hard to do with Undertow as-is.

You are welcome to hold whatever opinion you want regardless of how you arrived to it.

Have a great day!

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3 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

How much of a discount? What does a discount look like as it relates to stealth? Discount stealth would be closer to Operator Stealth or the stealth gotten from a select arcane or weapon because they are generic and available to all.

Discount as in your movement is heavily restricted, and you lack the ability to use weapons. "Non-discount" stealth would not restrict weapon use and movement so heavily. Skiajati is discount as well because it restricts weapon use, while Arcane Trickery is not since it doesn't restrict anything while active.
 

12 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

But both of these comments from you still prove what I said earlier...

And you still fail to address my point. What good is it that he can do all the things if he half-asses them?

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12 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

And you still fail to address my point. 

When you actually manage to make one... I'll address it.

12 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

What good is it that he can do all the things if he half-asses them?

This, for example, isn't a point... It's still a "cobbled together a mass of stuff that either isn't actually true or is a matter of preference but presents these things as a matter of relevant comparison instead.". 

With respect to you, your commentary is roughly equivalent to complaining about how effective a Swiss Army Knife/ Multi-Tool is compared to a toolbox full of tools in that it misses the point entirely...

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19 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Yea that's pretty neat, except Undertows CC also disables your movement,

and Tentacle Swarm's CC is unpleasant as it makes enemies an annoyance to kill. Tidal wave suffers from Pull's syndrome of flinging enemies. Tempest Barrage's CC is alright.

Undertow can stealth I guess, but Operator does the same thing but better. Also stealth damage only with Zenistar, and I'm not sure that even works anymore.

Tentacle Swarm's damage true damage isn't exactly much to be proud of. 200 dam/sec isn't exactly stunning.

Both of which prevent you from doing anything really. Tidal Surge is a mediocre movement ability with a ragdoll, neat but not terribly useful.
Undertow is so-so as a damage ability.

So does any frame with a decent ranged CC.

So sure you can do a lot of stuff during those 10 seconds, but are they really worthwhile is a different question.
 

So here's my original post.

The only "untrue" statement is that Undertows CC also disables your normal movement, which just happens to be mostly true instead of completely true.
The only statement of matter of preference is "Tidal Surge is a mediocre movement ability"
 

48 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

roughly equivalent to complaining about how effective a Swiss Army Knife/ Multi-Tool is compared to a toolbox full of tools

Except a multi-tool can still do the mundane jobs effectively while retaining ease of use, but you'll need the tool box for more specialized jobs.
Hydroid doesn't do the mundane jobs any more effectively than any other random frame and doesn't have any special ease of use. The best thing he brings is probably the status immunity from Tidal Impunity.

My comparisons where relevant because many of your "things Hydroid can do in 10 seconds" are universally available options, and the ones that aren't are done better by other frames or is akin to putting a hammer on a Swiss army knife; technically usable but worthless in most common scenarios.

When your kit is composed of 4 variations of CC, (2 of which are ragdolls/knockdowns) with a bit of movement and an eh damage ability, it shows.

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14 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

The only "untrue" statement is that Undertows CC also disables your normal movement, which just happens to be mostly true instead of completely true.
The only statement of matter of preference is "Tidal Surge is a mediocre movement ability"

Do you really need me to go line by line to point out the portions that are factually un-true and the portions that are hyperbolic and subjective?

Because everything you've stated fits into one of those categories...

16 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Except a multi-tool can still do the mundane jobs effectively while retaining ease of use, but you'll need the tool box for more specialized jobs.

Proving, yet again, that you've missed the point entirely...

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1 minute ago, Padre_Akais said:

Do you really need me to go line by line to point out the portions that are factually un-true and the portions that are hyperbolic and subjective?

Sure.

2 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Proving, yet again, that you've missed the point entirely...

And you still seem to miss mine. Being able to do a bunch of things poorly or being able to do tasks that everyone can do doesn't make you good or really special.

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On 2021-01-07 at 11:07 AM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Yea that's pretty neat, except Undertows CC also disables your movement, -Untrue

Tentacle Swarm's CC is unpleasant as it makes enemies an annoyance to kill. -Subjective.

Tidal wave suffers from Pull's syndrome of flinging enemies. - Subjective, Hyperbolic, and Irrelevant. Suffers=Features. If it bothers you then you shouldn't be using the frame to begin with... Same as any other ability or weapon that floats, flings, etc.   

Tempest Barrage's CC is alright. -Subjective and Irrelevant given that my comments centered on Undertow.

Undertow can stealth I guess, but Operator does the same thing but better. Also stealth damage only with Zenistar, and I'm not sure that even works anymore. Hyperbolic and Irrelevant given that the Operator is generic.

Tentacle Swarm's damage true damage isn't exactly much to be proud of. 200 dam/sec isn't exactly stunning. Since you neglected to note that it opens enemies to finishers (also true damage) this statements has the distinction of being both Hyperbolic and Untrue

Both of which prevent you from doing anything really.  See above... And add Subjective.

Tidal Surge is a mediocre movement ability with a ragdoll, neat but not terribly useful. - Highly Subjective. It also speaks volumes whether you realize it or not.
Undertow is so-so as a damage ability. -Also Highly Subjective in that it's strengths revolve around what you pair it with.


So sure you can do a lot of stuff during those 10 seconds, but are they really worthwhile is a different question. -Irrelevant and Subjective. If you wanted to do something different with those 10 seconds you'd have played a different frame anyway. That's how "begging the question" works to begin with.
 

The point of the matter was never a question of whether something was "special"...

The point of my statement was that DE would have to account for this ability in any buffs they consider giving Hydroid. They will never put a meaningful dps or defensive ability on Hydroid without trading something else out...That something is invariably going to involve modifications to Undertow or Undertow's slot because the ability does so much. 

You are, of course, welcome to your rationalizations...

That said, When/If you ever do present a coherent fact-based argument for why this would not be so I will be happy to entertain it then though.

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3 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Tentacle Swarm's CC is unpleasant as it makes enemies an annoyance to kill. -Subjective.

Enemies moving around are harder to kill than ones standing still. That's not subjective. Tentacle swarm makes enemies move around, and consequently harder to kill. When an ability makes enemies harder to kill, how is that not an annoyance?

3 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Tidal wave suffers from Pull's syndrome of flinging enemies. - Subjective, Hyperbolic, and Irrelevant. Suffers=Features. If it bothers you then you shouldn't be using the frame to begin with... Same as any other ability or weapon that floats, flings, etc.   

How is it flinging enemies subjective? It does that. There's no matter of opinion there. Pull also flings enemies in a similar fashion, hence the comparison.

3 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Undertow can stealth I guess, but Operator does the same thing but better. Also stealth damage only with Zenistar, and I'm not sure that even works anymore. Hyperbolic and Irrelevant given that the Operator is generic.

Hyperbolic how? I acknowledged it can stealth. Void mode also stealths you and has a faster move speed. Still can't make it do stealth damage too btw. And its relevant because Operator is universal.

3 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Tentacle Swarm's damage true damage isn't exactly much to be proud of. 200 dam/sec isn't exactly stunning. Since you neglected to note that it opens enemies to finishers (also true damage) this statements has the distinction of being both Hyperbolic and Untrue

Only front and back finishers do true damage. I can't it make do either. Ground finishers don't do true damage. I welcome a clip of a front/back finisher as a result of Tentacle Swarm though. If 200 true dam/sec is stunning to you, wait till you hear this. A Juno Dera Moa (aka a trash mob) has 60 base hp, so at level 100 it has 6468 hp . That's a 16 second ttk with 200% strength Tentacle Swarm, 8 if you cast from Undertow. Truly stunning.

3 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Both of which prevent you from doing anything really.  See above... And add Subjective.

You cannot do anything except recast Tidal Surge while in Tidal Surge. Only exception is if you cast from Undertow, where if you cast Undertow during it you will end Tidal Surge out of Undertow. So nothing really.
Undertow has access to his other abilities, so we'll give it half there if you consider his other abilities as being meaningful.
 

3 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Tidal Surge is a mediocre movement ability with a ragdoll, neat but not terribly useful. - Highly Subjective. It also speaks volumes whether you realize it or not.

Un-cancelable and un-steerable with a set 1 second duration. How is that not mediocre when you look at "good" movement abilities. At least you can cancel Lavos's. I'm not sure what you mean by "It also speaks volumes whether you realize it or not."

3 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Undertow is so-so as a damage ability. -Also Highly Subjective in that it's strengths revolve around what you pair it with.

It sucks against armor, even pairing it with stripping from Corroding Barrage. Undertow needs ~12 seconds to kill a level 100 Elite Lancer with 200% strength and 9 other enemies in the pool with 10 corrosive procs. If you don't have have any Corrosive procs, it'll take ~22 seconds
It also suffers from only considering health and not shields. With the same conditions as above, it takes ~9 seconds to kill a level 100 Elite Juno Crewman.
Vs non-buffed infested it's fine, but most stuff is. Even then. we're looking at 6-7 ttks with the same conditions, and this is assuming no Ancients.
 

Edited by (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom
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Sure, his 2 is meh, but I don't want them touching 1/3/4 unless it's to directly improve their base stats.  He excels at pinpoint-yet-widespread area denial and I don't want that messed with.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Enemies moving around are harder to kill than ones standing still. That's not subjective. Tentacle swarm makes enemies move around, and consequently harder to kill. When an ability makes enemies harder to kill, how is that not an annoyance?

How is it flinging enemies subjective? It does that. There's no matter of opinion there. Pull also flings enemies in a similar fashion, hence the comparison.

Hyperbolic how? I acknowledged it can stealth. Void mode also stealths you and has a faster move speed. Still can't make it do stealth damage too btw. And its relevant because Operator is universal.

Only front and back finishers do true damage. I can't it make do either. Ground finishers don't do true damage. I welcome a clip of a front/back finisher as a result of Tentacle Swarm though. If 200 true dam/sec is stunning to you, wait till you hear this. A Juno Dera Moa (aka a trash mob) has 60 base hp, so at level 100 it has 6468 hp . That's a 16 second ttk with 200% strength Tentacle Swarm, 8 if you cast from Undertow. Truly stunning.

You cannot do anything except recast Tidal Surge while in Tidal Surge. Only exception is if you cast from Undertow, where if you cast Undertow during it you will end Tidal Surge out of Undertow. So nothing really.
Undertow has access to his other abilities, so we'll give it half there if you consider his other abilities as being meaningful.
 

Un-cancelable and un-steerable with a set 1 second duration. How is that not mediocre when you look at "good" movement abilities. At least you can cancel Lavos's. I'm not sure what you mean by "It also speaks volumes whether you realize it or not."

It sucks against armor, even pairing it with stripping from Corroding Barrage. Undertow needs ~12 seconds to kill a level 100 Elite Lancer with 200% strength and 9 other enemies in the pool with 10 corrosive procs. If you don't have have any Corrosive procs, it'll take ~22 seconds
It also suffers from only considering health and not shields. With the same conditions as above, it takes ~9 seconds to kill a level 100 Elite Juno Crewman.
Vs non-buffed infested it's fine, but most stuff is. Even then. we're looking at 6-7 ttks with the same conditions, and this is assuming no Ancients.
 

Got to agree with Way on this one Padre, you can't dismiss someone's arguments by labelling them as subjective and acting as if his opinion isn't just as valid as your own. Whether it's subjective or not really doesn't matter, you should be addressing the points he's bringing up, which in this case happens to be Hydroid's issues. 

- Hydroid's Passive is terrible and serves no real purpose for Hydroid, his allies, or against the enemy. Having a 50% chance to spawn a tentacle on a Ground Slam that cannot be modded or changed in anyway is just not good. Hydroid should have a Passive that actually helps him out, or at least fits him thematically while still being useful. Hydroid could have a Passive relating to loot, as he is a pirate, or maybe a Passive to increase his survivability outside of Undertow. It's why people constantly suggest the whole "Waterlogged" effect, wherein Hydroid hits an enemy with his abilities and they suffer a debuff (decreased movement/attack speed, reduced damage, etc). If you went with Waterlogged, you could easily just have any of Hydroid's abilities proc it, scaling up the effects for every proc, so Hydroid would have even more of a reason to cast all of his abilities.

- Tempest Barrage excels at CC, but it unfortunately works too well. Enemies can be flung around and ragdolled by the blasts, making it hard to hit enemies that will most likely not be killed by the barrage. Tempest Barrage used to just knock down enemies, and it seems the newer function is a leftover bug from when Impact used to ragdoll. Outside of that, Barrage is still terrible at dealing damage, even though it's clearly supposed to considering that it's the only thing you can use to damage enemies while in Undertow. It would be best for Barrage to receive a multiplier to its damage for every enemy hit, say like a 25% increase as a baseline for the duration of the barrage. It would also make sense for Barrage to deal increased damage to enemies affected by Undertow or Tentacle Swarm, so I'd give it a flat 2x multiplier. Now Barrage functions just as well as it did before, but now it can help mop up enemies trapped by Hydroid, as it was originally intended to.

- Tidal Surge is mostly a movement ability through and through, and now allows Hydroid to move better in Undertow. However, when it's just easier to hop out of Undertow and recast it then it is to use Tidal Surge, the ability has a fundamental flaw that needs to be addressed, outside of its actual use in general play. It would make more sense for Tidal Surge while in Undertow to increase the drain of Undertow for the duration of its effect, but not cost any Energy outside of that. I understand DE doesn't want Undertow to be super mobile due to its inherent nature, but punishing us by making our only real movement option inside of it cost so much Energy just doesn't make much sense. You can then have Tidal Surge buff Hydroid in some way once it's over, and I'm sure a movement speed buff would make perfect sense. Say for five seconds Hydroid can move 25% faster (that's moddable, of course) while in, or outside of, Undertow. So now Undertow can crawl around a bit faster (but not dramatically so), it still costs Energy to do so (but not as much) and the ability still functions the same as before. I would personally make it so Tidal Surge sort of "folds in" at the end of the cast, grouping up enemies into a ball to deal with a bit easier, but that's more of a request than a requirement.

- Undertow is a decent ability all things considered, and is really the only ability Hydroid can use to any effectiveness. To be fair, however, this usually requires outside means as Tentacle Swarm cannot affect enemies inside of the pool and Tempest Barrage struggles to add any meaningful damage without the Corrosive Barrage Augment (even less so now that the Augment cannot fully strip Armor). The ability does scale damage very well, the issue is that this damage ramp-up is far too slow to be realistically useful on its own, which is fine on paper, not in practice. Warframe is a mobility-focused game, and having an entire moveset forcing you to stick to one area doesn't sit well with the community at large. Yes, people do camp in Survival missions and the like, but that is by choice, it is not a requirement. That's why abilities that lock the player in place are usually changed to be faster (Wukong's Cloudwalk) or are made to allow movement at all (Revenant's Danse Macabre). Undertow just doesn't fit with the general theme of the game, and that's only because the player is forced to stay still, so why not change that? Make it so, upon leaving the puddle, Hydroid comes out in a semi-liquid state. While in this state, Hydroid receives a DR buff (we'll say 50% at base that scales to 95%), leaving a smaller puddle behind that will absorb enemies if they walk into it, but will not drag in enemies without Hydroid being in it and doing it himself. Any damage Hydroid takes while in this state will be mostly redirected to damage enemies inside of the puddle, procs and all, making him immune to most CC effects. Hydroid can also cast Tempest Barrage, Tentacle Swarm and Tidal Surge to receive their in-Undertow benefits. The only change I would make is that enemies affected by Tidal Surge get teleported into Undertow. However, while in this state, Undertow's drain will double and Hydroid will suffer from a 50% movement speed debuff. This should allow Hydroid to be more mobile while playing, even allowing him to shoot enemies in his own puddle, but will still have enough drawbacks to not be abused, while again not changing how Undertow functions much at all.

- Tentacle Swarm's main issue I feel is how it oddly doesn't synergize with much of Hydroid's kit at all. Outside of the 200% damage buff from casting it in Undertow, it feels a lot more like a thematically fitting, but far from useful ability in his kit. This can easily be fixed with a few tweaks though, as most of its issues just come from the lack of synergy. So why not have the Tentacles be a bit more user friendly? Casting your 1 or 2 near or directly at a tentacle will cause the enemies to be affected by it, allowing Tempest Barrage to damage enemies affected by the tentacles much easier and allowing you to group them up with Tidal Surge while in or outside of Undertow. The synergy with Tidal Surge would allow you to pull enemies from the tentacles directly into Undertow much easier as well, and I'm sure allowing you to grab them from the tentacle itself would work as well, just in case you wanted to grab one enemy at a time instead. You can then allow the tentacles to absorb any damage that is shot into them, so say an ally shoots the tentacle instead of the enemy, all of that damage will be transferred to that enemy to make hitting them a bit easier. Then, while Undertow is active, Tentacles will deal their normal damage on top of Undertow's, allowing you to spread procs and damage by hitting tentacles or the pool, hitting anyone in the pool or grabbed by the tentacles (this would also add the Tentacles damage to the pool). Finally, I would have to say that Magnetic damage is a bit of an odd choice when it comes to damage types, and it would probably make more sense for the tentacles to just deal raw Impact or Puncture damage, with Puncture procs even being capable of reducing enemy damage for a short time after the cast.

Edited by (XBOX)Graysmog
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On 2021-01-10 at 12:11 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Enemies moving around are harder to kill than ones standing still. That's not subjective. 

Actually, yes it is... Recall you that you are generally using either a mouse of gamepad to aim at enemies. Moving or standing still takes the same amount of work regardless.

Asserting that this is annoying is entirely subjective.

On 2021-01-10 at 12:11 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

How is it flinging enemies subjective? It does that. There's no matter of opinion there. Pull also flings enemies in a similar fashion, hence the comparison.

Labeling it as "suffers"...

On 2021-01-10 at 12:11 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Hyperbolic how? I acknowledged it can stealth. Void mode also stealths you and has a faster move speed. Still can't make it do stealth damage too btw. And its relevant because Operator is universal.

"I guess" literally implies a limitation... That's hyperbole unless you can specifically cite one. Anecdotal evidence doesn't apply. Operator stealth is generic to all... That makes it irrelevant to warframe ability discussions.

On 2021-01-10 at 12:11 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Only front and back finishers do true damage. I can't it make do either.

That doesn't change the fact that you neglected to mention it though, does it?

On 2021-01-10 at 12:11 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

You cannot do anything except recast Tidal Surge while in Tidal Surge. Only exception is if you cast from Undertow, where if you cast Undertow during it you will end Tidal Surge out of Undertow. So nothing really.
Undertow has access to his other abilities, so we'll give it half there if you consider his other abilities as being meaningful.

You can also cast Undertow. Given that you are invulnerable during Tidal Surge and invulnerable during Undertow...That's actually quite a bit. 

Likewise, a decent Hydroid can herd a whole group with Tidal Surge and do any number of things with Undertow to finish them off. 

Why neglect to bring this up and instead reduce it to "nothing"...Hyperbole.

On 2021-01-10 at 12:11 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Un-cancelable and un-steerable with a set 1 second duration. How is that not mediocre when you look at "good" movement abilities. At least you can cancel Lavos's. I'm not sure what you mean by "It also speaks volumes whether you realize it or not."

See above. Given your comments, I am left with the impression that you aren't entirely familiar with Hydroid as you appear to want to play him as a stationary frame.

On 2021-01-10 at 12:11 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

It sucks against armor, even pairing it with stripping from Corroding Barrage. Undertow needs ~12 seconds to kill a level 100 Elite Lancer with 200% strength and 9 other enemies in the pool with 10 corrosive procs. If you don't have have any Corrosive procs, it'll take ~22 seconds
It also suffers from only considering health and not shields. With the same conditions as above, it takes ~9 seconds to kill a level 100 Elite Juno Crewman.
Vs non-buffed infested it's fine, but most stuff is. Even then. we're looking at 6-7 ttks with the same conditions, and this is assuming no Ancients.

Why are you opting to drown opponents in Undertow? That doesn't sound terribly efficient.

 

On 2021-01-10 at 2:00 PM, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

Got to agree with Way on this one Padre, you can't dismiss someone's arguments by labelling them as subjective and acting as if his opinion isn't just as valid as your own. Whether it's subjective or not really doesn't matter, you should be addressing the points he's bringing up, which in this case happens to be Hydroid's issues. 

You are welcome to agree with whomever you want— I might suggest you endeavor to determine what my opinion actually is on the matter before asserting what it is though.

You see, I haven't given one aside from stating that DE will need to account for Undertow and all it does before they give Hydroid anything meaningful as it relates to tuning/buffs.

Way's stance on the matter is that Undertow isn't a mitigating factor on the matter because what it does is mediocre and supplies nothing objective to actually support that.

My assertion is much simpler: 

It does those things. DE will want to account for them.

That's my opinion... You are welcome to disagree with it. Assigning value assessments to what it does do though causes circular arguments like the one being had.

At the very least, we've gotten @(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom to finally admit that Undertow actually does do the things I named...which is a marked improvement over a few days ago.

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On 2021-01-12 at 12:46 AM, Padre_Akais said:

"I guess" literally implies a limitation... That's hyperbole unless you can specifically cite one.

I've stated its limitations. It hampers your movement and restricts weapon use.

On 2021-01-12 at 12:46 AM, Padre_Akais said:

That doesn't change the fact that you neglected to mention it though, does it?

What? Not mentioning ground finishers relates to true damage how? You're the one who claims it can do true damage via front/back finishers, which I've said I am unable to replicate. The context was invoking true damage, not being able to do ground finishers.

On 2021-01-12 at 12:46 AM, Padre_Akais said:

You can also cast Undertow. Given that you are invulnerable during Tidal Surge and invulnerable during Undertow...That's actually quite a bit. 

You can't cast Undertow while in Tidal Surge unless you are exiting it as I stated already. I've tried numerous times to enter Undertow from Tidal Surge to no avail, despite what the Wiki claims.

On 2021-01-12 at 12:46 AM, Padre_Akais said:

Why are you opting to drown opponents in Undertow? That doesn't sound terribly efficient.

Because my original comment was about how Undertow is so-so as a damage ability?
 

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  • THREAD: "Hydroid needs Love"
  • KICKBOT: "Love is not a valid linkable item."

Also, his current passive is a built-in [Jugulus Barbs].

Passive 1: Tidal Surge integrated into his roll.

Passive 2: Radial weaponry have increased radii when wielded by Hydroid, but bonus radii has decreased status duration (as tradeoff).

Ability - Fog of War: Enemies suffer reduced accuracy, allies gain static damage reduction (for ability's duration) only in Hydroid's vicinity; armor gradually wears off when moving out-range of Hydroid. Can stack with other abilities/bonuses, but Fog must first expire before it can be recast.

Edited by (PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk
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