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Orphix Venom: Hotfix 29.6.4


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1 minute ago, --Q--FSK41 said:

if your most perfect run squeezed just over 21k that means you either dont know how to squeeze out more sentient kills or you badly executed it, the strat and PROOF was linked as an ENTIRE video multiple times in this thread also EVERY sentient is worth 2 points as far as i know 

Nah they not, wiki can give you more info, unknown.pngexcluding aerolysts, you can gain 3 from some sentients, and as far as i know it's random which will be spawned by orphix

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1 minute ago, --Q--FSK41 said:

if your most perfect run squeezed just over 21k that means you either dont know how to squeeze out more sentient kills or you badly executed it, the strat and PROOF was linked as an ENTIRE video multiple times  

My most perfect run efficiently killing Orphix. Keep up. We're talking about doing the mission by its actual design, not capitalising on a crucial flaw that causes a total design breakdown.

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Aznvasions:

I literally carried a pub run to 21500 yesterday when I was waiting for my main team to log on.

this guy( that you are talking to) is the same guy that says  anything about above 21k shouldnt exist.... because they do the event in an ,,unintended'' way....because killing enemies that give points is CLEARLY an unintended way to get SCORE  

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1 minute ago, --Q--FSK41 said:

Lets assume for a second they did it,they are (like you nicely said) banned,that shows you what ? exactly,that they got punished for it

It shows me that FPS limit gives a huge vantage getting an higher score, 'cause you can kill more waves of sentients for each orphix, even if just at 30, also there are softwares not recognized by DE ban system and it will not result in down left stats

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vor 1 Minute schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

My most perfect run efficiently killing Orphix. Keep up. We're talking about doing the mission by its actual design, not capitalising on a crucial flaw that causes a total design breakdown.

Design flaw? killing enemies that give points is PART of the design,actually.

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I'll put it this way. If you are rushing the Orphix, there are teams that take less than 15 seconds from the video frame the Orphix spawns, to go through both pylons cycles and both dps phases to kill the Orphix. That gives you 75 seconds of downtime per Orphix. In that 15s, the only time you need 4ppl is killing reso. The dead animation time, you can kill sentients while waiting for the Orphix to open it's mouth again.

 

75s is 150 points. 150 points x 36 Orphix is 5,400 points.

This does not count the fact you can ride the last Orphix to 90% SC before you kill it, which is an easy extra 400-500 points from sentient kills.

17,100 + 5,400 is 22,500

Notice I didn't include any points from killing sentients throughout the run, nor the extra 400-500 from the last one by riding it to 90% SC

Edited by Aznvasions
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Gerade eben schrieb Radu10:

It shows me that FPS limit gives a huge vantage getting an higher score, 'cause you can kill more waves of sentients for each orphix, even if just at 30, also there are softwares not recognized by DE ban system and it will not result in down left stats

Okay mate,host a run, get 30 fps ( u can lock that EVEN INGAME to 30FPS btw) and get EASY 45k score,yes thank you.

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Just now, --Q--FSK41 said:

Design flaw? killing enemies that give points is PART of the design,actually.

A flawed part which countermands the entire rest of the design.

Here, let me just grab the logic breakdown I did over in feedback:

On 2021-01-03 at 7:51 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Okay, let's go over the points:

  1. The ideology of the mission is to kill the Orphix in order to remove sentient control.
  2. If Sentient control rises, Father gets agitated. If 100%, your 'endurance' is over.
  3. You also get a persistent score uptick while no Orphix is on the field (2/s in Endurance).
  4. The total number of Orphix is hard-capped.
  5. Resonator spawns scale with squad size.

By logical derivation 2 and 3 the goal is to efficiently achieve 1.

By logical derivation 2 and 4, you are not meant to extend Orphix time or extend mission activity indefinitely.

Ergo, the metric of competition should be "How quickly can the Orphix spawns be neutralised as they appear" (total mission time spent with 0% sentient control) to achieve optimal scores. This is backed up by derivation of 5 as this serves to somewhat balance out the time taken by differing squad sizes so that smaller squads can effectively compete for efficient Orphix kill speeds (larger squad is not a direct, unmitigated advantage).

 

However, due to Sentient spawns counting for score - which scale beneficially in both quantities and prospective time to kill with increasing squad size - this design intent has been superseded and scoring performance no longer follows the logical thrust of the mission, efficient Orphix killing until hard-cap completion.

 

There's no point in feedback which says "I can't benefit from the break-down in design as much on certain tiles", when the problem is that you can benefit from it on any tile.

(As an added bonus, I have a feeling that this would also have prevented the FPS exploit, as the ticks of score between Orphixes would likely be bound to the same clock)

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1 minute ago, Aznvasions said:

I'll put it this way. If you are rushing the Orphix, there are teams that take less than 15 seconds from the video frame the Orphix spawns, to go through both pylons cycles and both dps phases to kill the Orphix. That gives you 75 seconds of downtime per Orphix.

If you are online and not have a team for the event I will likely wanna do a run, I'm not here 'cause I wanna make drama, I'm just really curious about this event mechanics, and trying to understand them and guess which max score should be possible

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Just now, Radu10 said:

If you are online and not have a team for the event I will likely wanna do a run, I'm not here 'cause I wanna make drama, I'm just really curious about this event mechanics, and trying to understand them and guess which max score should be possible

Edited post with metrics

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2 minutes ago, --Q--FSK41 said:

Okay mate,host a run, get 30 fps ( u can lock that EVEN INGAME to 30FPS btw) and get EASY 45k score,yes thank you.

I never said that was enough to bump the score, but it surely buffs it a bit

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vor 1 Minute schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

A flawed part which countermands the entire rest of the design.

Here, let me just grab the logic breakdown I did over in feedback:

i ll tell you my logic: 1  i dont care what father wants or thinks,as long as its not 100% he is happy and i am happy. 2 if i gain more points by killing sentients than the passive wait timer than i will choose to get more points in an -> 100% <- intended way (aka killing enemies that give spawns) 

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1 minute ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

A flawed part which countermands the entire rest of the design.

Here, let me just grab the logic breakdown I did over in feedback:

Yeah but DE set score points for each sentient type, so they "want" you kill more for higher score, or everyone will have same score after a full run, the fixed timer for each orphix spawn also confirms this, so you have a certain amount time do the extra kills

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Radu10:

Yeah but DE set score points for each sentient type, so they "want" you kill more for higher score, or everyone will have same score after a full run, the fixed timer for each orphix spawn also confirms this, so you have a certain amount time do the extra kills

i STRONGLY believe this guy wants everyone to have the same score and doesnt like competition

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1 minute ago, --Q--FSK41 said:

i STRONGLY believe this guy wants everyone to have the same score and doesnt like competition

Nah I'm good with that concept, I was just explaining the other guy who called it a design flaw...

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The sentients have points because DE wants you to kill them. If killing them was not intended to boost score, they wouldn't be worth points. DE does not care when you kill the Orphix. You also chose to exclude kill sentients for points from the main 5-6 points, for no reason besides the bias that you don't see killing sentient fodder as a main point of the event.

 

For lore reasons, it wouldn't make sense to not kill as many sentients as possible. Because we obviously are stronger than they expected. There are VA quotes in mission of Lotus not expecting mechs and getting annoyed at our progress. The Orphixes have no fodder spawn limit. They are literally dimension portals to the sentient homebase to send them through. The more fodder we kill, the better. Especially because they can't reproduce.

Edited by Aznvasions
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Gerade eben schrieb Radu10:

Nah I'm good with that concept, I was just explaining the other guy who called it a design flaw...

Yeah i know ,i am just thinking that the guy you  are talking to is ...strongly a fan of ,,fixed'' scores and would be happy if everyone has the same one

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Just now, --Q--FSK41 said:

Yeah i know ,i am just thinking that the guy you  are talking to is ...strongly a fan of ,,fixed'' scores and would be happy if everyone has the same one

Yeah unless he provides a different idea to get different scores, that point is invalid.

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DE would never release leaderboards, if their goal was to enforce the same score. The entire point of the leaderboard with fixed spawn times is to see who can be the most efficient in scoring in the time period given.

 

If there was no intent to release a leaderboard, then your argument would hold water.

Edited by Aznvasions
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vor 5 Minuten schrieb Aznvasions:

The sentients have points because DE wants you to kill them. If killing them was not intended to boost score, they wouldn't be worth points. DE does not care when you kill the Orphix. You also chose to exclude kill sentients for points from the main 5-6 points, for no reason besides the bias that you don't see killing sentient fodder as a main point of the event.

 

For lore reasons, it wouldn't make sense to not kill as many sentients as possible. Because we obviously are stronger than they expected. There are VA quotes in mission of Lotus not expecting mechs and getting annoyed at our progress. The Orphixes have no fodder spawn limit. They are literally dimension portals to the sentient homebase to send them through. The more fodder we kill, the better. Especially because they can't reproduce.

 

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Aznvasions:

DE would never release leaderboards, if their goal was to enforce the same score. The entire point of the leaderboard with fixed spawn times is to see who can be the most efficient in scoring in the time period given.

 

If there was no intent to release a leaderboard, then your argument would hold water.

why does this guy not have more upvotes

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1 minute ago, --Q--FSK41 said:

 

why does this guy not have more upvotes

I am done talk here, thanks to you and Anzvasions, now I trust a lot more the current top scores, good luck getting new records and I hope I will see a video after event is done

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12 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

Yeah but DE set score points for each sentient type, so they "want" you kill more for higher score, or everyone will have same score after a full run, the fixed timer for each orphix spawn also confirms this, so you have a certain amount time do the extra kills

13 minutes ago, --Q--FSK41 said:

i ll tell you my logic: 1  i dont care what father wants or thinks,as long as its not 100% he is happy and i am happy. 2 if i gain more points by killing sentients than the passive wait timer than i will choose to get more points in an -> 100% <- intended way (aka killing enemies that give spawns) 

Circular reasoning. The fact it's there doesn't mean it automatically fits design intention. Ever heard of idioms like 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'? (No, Nora, not the opposite..)

Someone thought it was a good idea to slap score on Sentients but didn't realise it breaks the rest of the design paradigm.

 

As for competition, scores would be a lot tighter, but the endurance is hardcapped so that's only natural. If sentient kills were entirely score-free then there would still be a granularity of 0.5 seconds for the purest efficiency in mission completions.

You can still do better than others by killing faster, it's just ordained by the mission ideology instead of literally ignoring the purpose of the mission for as long as possible so you can kill fodder.

 

Take Hostile Mergers as an example. You weren't just scored on progression, you were also scored on kill delay after triggering a Demolyst. You could use degenerate strategies to stall out the timers, but you scored less (per Conduit) that way. It just wasn't hard-capped like we are here, so the degeneracy was able to ultimately score better through sheer quantity.

Edited by TheLexiConArtist
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Gerade eben schrieb Radu10:

I am done talk here, thanks to you and Anzvasions, now I trust a lot more the current top scores, good luck getting new records and I hope I will see a video after event is done

Have a nice evening,hope you get a better score too provided with the video

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Just now, TheLexiConArtist said:

Circular reasoning. The fact it's there doesn't mean it automatically fits design intention. Ever heard of idioms like 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'? (No, Nora, not the opposite..)

Someone thought it was a good idea to slap score on Sentients but didn't realise it breaks the rest of the design paradigm.

 

As for competition, scores would be a lot tighter, but the endurance is hardcapped so that's only natural. If sentient kills were entirely score-free then there would still be a granularity of 0.5 seconds for the purest efficiency in mission completions.

You can still do better than others by killing faster, it's just ordained by the mission ideology instead of literally ignoring the purpose of the mission for as long as possible so you can kill fodder.

 

Take Hostile Mergers as an example. You weren't just scored on progression, you were also scored on kill delay after triggering a Demolyst. You could use degenerate strategies to stall out the timers, but you scored less that way. 

Im just going to assume DE has enough braincells to not release a global operation with the intent of forcing you to speedrun it with a granularity difference of 0.5 seconds between the top teams. A speedrun leaderboard by those that want to speedrun things in the game? sure, those exist as 3rd party sites. But a developer-supported speedrun leaderboard with 0.5s tolerance between top scores? That just looks bad.

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