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Orphix Venom: Hotfix 29.6.4


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8 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Circular reasoning. The fact it's there doesn't mean it automatically fits design intention. Ever heard of idioms like 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'? (No, Nora, not the opposite..)

Someone thought it was a good idea to slap score on Sentients but didn't realise it breaks the rest of the design paradigm.

 

As for competition, scores would be a lot tighter, but the endurance is hardcapped so that's only natural. If sentient kills were entirely score-free then there would still be a granularity of 0.5 seconds for the purest efficiency in mission completions.

You can still do better than others by killing faster, it's just ordained by the mission ideology instead of literally ignoring the purpose of the mission for as long as possible so you can kill fodder.

 

Take Hostile Mergers as an example. You weren't just scored on progression, you were also scored on kill delay after triggering a Demolyst. You could use degenerate strategies to stall out the timers, but you scored less (per Conduit) that way. It just wasn't hard-capped like we are here, so the degeneracy was able to ultimately score better through sheer quantity.

The reason it wasn't hard-capped, was because Hostile Mergers was intended to be a speedrun event. How hard is that to understand? The faster you kill, the more points you get to progress to the next one. The next round spawns as fast as you manage to keep the previous. The faster you go, the faster you earn points, and the faster you get the chance to earn points. That is literal standard speedrun design of a game activity.

 

DE clearly dislikes speedrun topics, because they have in the past several years done things that actively detract from the speedrun community. This event clearly isn't intended to be speedrun, that's why the spawn timers are fixed. The highscores were not purely from quantity. The majority of your score came from how fast you killed the demolysts, and how many you spawned at once as a score multiplier. You gained much more by instantly killing demos 10-15s after they spawned, than trying to ride out and CC demo's at levels you couldn't handle. All high score runs could still kill level cap demos in a couple of seconds once you started DPSing them.

Edited by Aznvasions
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1 minute ago, Aznvasions said:

Im just going to assume DE has enough braincells to not release a global operation with the intent of forcing you to speedrun it with a granularity difference of 0.5 seconds between the top teams. A speedrun leaderboard by those that want to speedrun things in the game? sure, those exist as 3rd party sites. But a developer-supported speedrun leaderboard with 0.5s tolerance between top scores? That just looks bad.

Why? You're not actually providing any information here other than head-plucked subjectivity.

1 minute ago, Aznvasions said:

The reason it wasn't hard-capped, was because Hostile Mergers was intended to be a speedrun event. How hard is that to understand? The faster you kill, the more points you get to progress to the next one. The next round spawns as fast as you manage to keep the previous. The faster you go, the faster you earn points, and the faster you get the chance to earn points. That is literal standard speedrun design of a game activity.

And now speedrunning is 'okay'? What?

 

This event has more of a speedrun design than Hostile Mergers because it has a specified hard-cap end. They both benefit from faster killing of the mission objective (passive score tick here), but you can't speedrun that which has no absolute ending point.

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4 hours ago, VhwatGoes said:

Wonderful!!

Would still like a slider to set how long I need to "Hold", or dedicated keybinds to separate the tap/hold entirely, but I greatly appreciate that this is getting attention.

Edit: Saw another suggestion to replace "hold" with a button combination tree. For example, The Lost -> Gaze might have you tap 3 -> 2, or The Lost -> Accuse would have you tap 3 -> 1, and 3 -> 3 for Deny.

They could make for the keybind since it is close to the 1-4 buttons. It doersn't need to be held for a second, just the act of holding " and then you press the ability button to cast it. It would be similar to the ability menu, which is a feature I use with a ps4 controller. This method is still possible for console players, which can use one of the d-pads to open the ability menu for the tap version and another d-pad arrow for the hold version.

For example, I currently use the up D-pad to open the ability menu and then Square, Circle, Triangle and X to cast ability and the down D-pad to enter spoiler mode. However it is possible to move the spoiler mode to R1 and then use down D-pad for the hold versions. 

I do agree that having a slider for the hold function could work too. However, the button combination idea might cause problems because it would be very tiresome in long runs and lead to some confusion. Nekros used to need to cast his 3 every second because it only acted once, but was later turned into a toggle because players were hurting their fingers by constantly pressing buttons. Therefore doubling the buttons you need to use would be bad for many people, especially if you have a caster warframe like Lavos, even more so due to needing to press them in quick succession.

Edited by HolySeraphin
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It has no speedrun potential, because the spawn timers are fixed. Speedrun content is designed to be only limited by player performance, so that the final outcome is directly proportional to the skill of the runner. The fixed spawn timers is an artifical cap designed to normalize run times. You cannot say the event has a speedrun design, when running it as a speedrun results in being forced to spent 80% of the mission being afk with absolutely nothing going on.

 

Hostile Mergers was all about speed. Getting to later cycles did not matter if you took too long. You could literally lose 90%+ of potential points because you took too long to kill the demolyst. It was only limited by how long you could survive. Endless speedruns exist you know.

Leaderboards for X time to reach X wave exist. and those waves are based purely on your kill rate, not on some artificial hardcap of fixed spawn timers.

 

Speedrunning does not require a hardcap end. All it requires is benchmark milestones of how fast you reached X, limited only by how fast you could do what was needed to reach X.

Edited by Aznvasions
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2 minutes ago, Aznvasions said:

It has no speedrun potential, because the spawn timers are fixed. Speedrun content is designed to be only limited by player performance, so that the final outcome is directly proportional to the skill of the runner. The fixed spawn timers is an artifical cap designed to normalize run times. You cannot say the event has a speedrun design, when running it as a speedrun results in being forced to spent 80% of the mission being afk with absolutely nothing going on.

It is still directly linked to your performance, because of the passive score ticks. That's your time/performance metric, not the absolute over-arching mission timer. And it's not like speedrunners never have to wait on fixed time constraints in games. Unskippable cutscenes, for example. There's no faster way to pass them than waiting for them to be over, but you don't see people ditching a game as non-speedrunnable because it has a bit you can't find a way to optimise.

Besides, that downtime can be spent preparing for the next kill. Take your positions, regenerate your energy, be ready to pop the next one so you maximise your 'performance' score ticks.

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11 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

It is still directly linked to your performance, because of the passive score ticks. That's your time/performance metric, not the absolute over-arching mission timer. And it's not like speedrunners never have to wait on fixed time constraints in games. Unskippable cutscenes, for example. There's no faster way to pass them than waiting for them to be over, but you don't see people ditching a game as non-speedrunnable because it has a bit you can't find a way to optimise.

Besides, that downtime can be spent preparing for the next kill. Take your positions, regenerate your energy, be ready to pop the next one so you maximise your 'performance' score ticks.

So now you refer to the passive score tick as a metric of performance, when DE clearly intended for sentients to give points, where it's so ridiculously easy to outpace the passive scoring. By killing the Orphix instantly, you get the equivalent of killing 1 sentient/s. Wow. so rewarding. That honestly feels like crap and extremely unrewarding from a player-perspective.

It is just so easy to completely overshadow the passive point scoring even in a rush run, because you only get 5,400 points worth of score from rushing the mission. Thats roughly equivalent to 2,700 sentient kills. It's pretty hard to not kill a sizeable portion of that while rushing 36 orphixes. Let's say you score 20 sentient kills accidentally while rushing the Orphix and resonators. That's 36 Orphixes for 720 kills.  That's worth 1,440 points.

You have 1,440 points allocated to random accidental ad killing, in a mode you state passive scoring as a direct metric of speedrun performance, which is worth 5,400 points.

Do you not see what the problem is here? The ad points have way too much impact on the outcome.

 

There are 2 requirements for this event to be a "speedrun" event: Remove sentient scoring, or remove the fixed spawn timer. Currently the passive scoring is a horrible metric of player performance, with it's garbage scaling.

Even if you ignore sentients, 17,100 comes from Orphix and 5,400 from speedrunning the 36. Less than 25% of your score depends on your actual speed perfomance. If that isn't bad mission design for speedrunning, than idk what is. Over 90% of your score on Hostile Mergers was dependent on how fast you killed them, not how many you killed.

Edited by Aznvasions
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2 minutes ago, Aznvasions said:

So now you refer to the passive score tick as a metric of performance, when DE clearly intended for sentients to give points, where it's so ridiculously easy to outpace the passive scoring. By killing the Orphix instantly, you get the equivalent of killing 1 sentient/s. Wow. so rewarding. That honestly feels like crap and extremely unrewarding from a player-perspective.

Green true, they did implement it, it's not a bug. However, red is nothing but speculation, and I'd argue that was not the intent due to the rest of the mission design around it.

They could easily have made the tick score better, and it's not 'one sentient per second' (or 2 per 3s for the shiny ones) if they didn't shoot their design in the foot by scoring from those in the first place

2 minutes ago, Aznvasions said:

It is just so easy to completely overshadow the passive point scoring even in a rush run, because you only get 5,400 points worth of score from rushing the mission. Thats roughly equivalent to 2,700 sentient kills. It's pretty hard to not kill a sizeable portion of that while rushing 36 orphixes. Let's say you score 20 sentient kills accidentally while rushing the Orphix and resonators. That's 36 Orphixes for 720 kills.  That's worth 1,440 points.

It's hard to tell since a lot of mission kills come from the non-sentient mooks, but 20 genuine accidental kills per Orphix is ludicrous. It's a handful, at best.

2 minutes ago, Aznvasions said:

You have 1,440 points allocated to random accidental ad killing, in a mode you state passive scoring as a direct metric of speedrun performance, which is worth 5,400 points.

Do you not see what the problem is here? The points have way too much impact on the outcome.

There are 2 requirements for this event to be a "speedrun" event: Remove sentient scoring, or remove the fixed spawn timer. Currently the passive scoring is a horrible metric of player performance, with it's garbage scaling.

This is what I am saying, sentient kill scoring was the mistake and should not have been added because it countermands the design present in the rest of the mission's structure and ideology.

The spawn timers are there to give the players time to clear one and prepare for the next. More for the less perfect-clear aspect of the mission, and especially if someone loses a mech. That full minute of resummon downtime (if nobody else is able to cover you) is a game-over if there's no breathing room.

2 minutes ago, Aznvasions said:

Even if you ignore sentients, 17,100 comes from Orphix and 5,400 from speedrunning the 36. Less than 25% of your score depends on your actual speed perfomance. If that isn't bad mission design for speedrunning, than idk what is.

5400 scoring brackets on a full-clear mission is still a reasonably large subset of statistics. It's not like there's a prize for first place. But they could also have increased the passive tick further instead of ruining the foundation by implementing kill-scores.

Since it's not ticked per-second, that granularity is directly modified by the score gain rate. Four per sec? Quarter-second granularity for 10,800 potential full-clear brackets. Ten per second? Tenth-second granularity for a total of 27,000 scoring brackets.

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I have a question, i was under the impression that this event orphix Venom was something like a test run for mechs on normal missions, Is that still a thing? I mean i dumped a Lot of Hours on my mech leveling over AND over spending plat on forma, and it Will be extremely dissapointing to see all that effort just to use it on the same Deimos bounties, can someone of the staff clarify this for me?

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7 hours ago, Above said:

You can't be serious, there's a massive skill difference between players and DE.

Lmao! 🤣😂 Thank you tenno, this is the funniest thing I've read today.

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9 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Fixed Voidrig Day of the Dead Helmet Skin appearing as a filepath in the Necramech Arsenal. 

 

I have Voidrig Day of the Dead Skin but its helmet skin doesn't exist in my inventory so i can equip the skin but i can't equip its helmet.

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10 hours ago, ShadowTalons said:

Any news towards a feature dojo using its free publicity to sell the Ignis Wraith for 50 platinum, in a way trying to monetize its feature dojo status?

Unless I'm missing something that seems a greedy grab for plat, you entered the Featured Dojo for fun and getting your Trophy for winning then you want players to pay you for something other Clans giveaway free. 
What stops players exploiting the Blueprint by getting it for free from the generous clans and then selling them through your clan for 50p?

-------------------------------

Thank you for the hotfix and fixing that horrid Necramech crosshair, will try it out.

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Arcana Bounties need the Esophage marked for easy access back to the surface, at present if you can't find an Esophage you have to travel almost 1 km back to the surface the way you came in to start the next bounty which is a time waste considering weeks of grind for no weapon parts dropping. (rng hates me) 
Matchmaking for Arcana Bounties is needed.

Khora's whip with LOS is a fail, you've effectively killed a good Warframe for all of us legit players because of a few farming macro exploiters.
Makes me question if investing in the Khora Prime will be a waste of time.

Please fix the Fluctus not hitting the Orphix centre properly once opened, just seeing zeros as damage, then if you're lucky enough to see an actual damage number popup.

Please fix fishing in Deimos getting stuck while using the fishing poles on the exocrine. It happens with both fishing poles from players accounts, though I've only had it happen to myself with the Ebisu Spear.

/most likely more but can't remember them.

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11 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

‘Invert Tap/Hold Abilities’ option now lets you control the setting for each valid Warframe.

Could Gara's Shattered Lash be added to this list in the future as well? Thanks!

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Speaking of fixing Deimos fish compatibility with aquariums, does anybody know where I could leave a suggestion? If not with DE themselves then to pick up traction within the community? We need more aquariums, we had too many fish to display BEFORE Deimos launched, and as I see it we already have two perfect candidate locations for conversion: The floor tank in the Helminth room (PERFECT for infested fish), and the plat option to convert the sitting space in front of the window in the personal quarters, similar to the vignette.

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