Bonewidow: Where is the ability synergy?

[HelmetTooTight]

Bonewidow is already a hot mess, and I'm sure DE has seen plenty of posts lamenting its low damage, poor defenses and whatnot. I won't belabor those points, but instead I'll discuss another facet of Bonewidow's kit that I think is glaringly bad: ability synergy.

1. The worst offender is Meathook (1) and Shield Maiden (2) are currently mutually exclusive. You cannot use one while the other is active, which is just really poor design. At high level, holding an enemy on Meathook and constantly healing yourself is sadly a better shield than the actual shield ability.
2. Shield Maiden costs 15 energy to do a shield bash (Maiden's Kiss), which does negligible damage, but suddenly when you whip out Ironbride (4), it does the same amount of damage as Ironbride (significantly more since it now uses Ironbride's mods). Why would I ever waste 15 energy on a shield bash if it does awful damage when I'm not holding Ironbride, and why would I waste 15 energy on a shield bash when I'm holding Ironbride when I can just swing Ironbride instead??
3. Firing Line (3): I literally saw a post that said "I would not use this even if it cost zero energy," and that's pretty much the mood for this ability. Useless and doesn't really fit the kit.
4. Meathook and Ironbride have zero interaction with each other  as well. You used to be able to club enemies with the skewered dude, but that was removed since base Necramech melee is a complete joke.

Those are the main issues I see with Bonewidow's kit, but I'll suggest some solutions instead of just complaining.

1. Remove the mutual exclusivity from Meathook and Shield Maiden; they should complement each other. Using Meathook while Shield Maiden is active should add the enemy's current HP to your shield's HP pool (literally using the enemy as a body shield). You should also be able to keep skewering additional enemies onto your Shield and persistently heal it (this may seem OP, but it's really not since the shield doesn't block rear damage). If you are not full HP, the skewered enemy still heals you but since their current HP is part of your shield now, you would effectively use your own shield HP to heal yourself.
2. Shield Bash damage should always consistently use Ironbride's mods regardless if Ironbride is active. The energy cost should be reduced to like 5 and it shouldn't cost energy if it doesn't hit anything (similar to how Meathook costs 0 energy if you miss). When Ironbride is active, it should not cost energy to shield bash.
3. Firing Line is almost unsalvageable in terms of synergy at this point. It could be made useful if the laser itself did damage, sorta like the new Jackal's laser wall. If Firing Line did 75% max HP true damage (ignores armor/shields) in a circle around it in addition the the current sweep, it might be remotely useful.
4. Using Meathook while Ironbride is active should allow you to skewer a second enemy onto your sword. Each sword swing does increased damage equal to the skewered enemy's current HP. This will address the "Ironbride does little damage" and introduce more synergy also. (There might be some issues with skewer "priority" if both Ironbride and Shield Maiden are active; I would say first Meathook skewer goes to Ironbride, second and everything else goes to Shield until the Ironbride skewer is dead from the HP drain).

Let me know what y'all think, or if there are any current synergy issues that I missed. I think Bonewidow has a cool concept but it's just very poorly executed.

[deothor]

On 2021-01-08 at 10:28 PM, HelmetTooTight said:

Firing Line (3): I literally saw a post that said "I would not use this even if it cost zero energy," and that's pretty much the mood for this ability.

I think DE made it specifficicaly in preparation for necramech helminth system xD
You simply can't not make such garbage ability by accident.

The same with voidrigs 1st ability, wet fart bag toss

[DrivaMain]

On 2021-01-09 at 4:28 AM, HelmetTooTight said:

Firing Line (3): I literally saw a post that said "I would not use this even if it cost zero energy," and that's pretty much the mood for this ability. Useless and doesn't really fit the kit.

Enemies take extra damage when they got hit by this ability. Do you even use this ability yourself? I used it quite a lot. But what I do want as a QoL is to not restrict movement when cast by making an upper body animation.

 

[Duality52]

8 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Enemies take extra damage when they got hit by this ability. Do you even use this ability yourself? I used it quite a lot. But what I do want as a QoL is to not restrict movement when cast by making an upper body animation.

 

While it's true any enemies lifted by Firing Line takes 50% more damage from all sources, they still haven't updated the description to reflect that. I'm confused why the 5 seconds of being lifted along with the 50% damage vulnerability is unaffected by mods, Making it 65% more damage and 6.5 seconds of being lifted when modded isn't overpowering at all.

Furthermore, I'm not even sure if Sentients or enemies like the Deimos Saxum and Reknoids take additional damage. They're immune to the lifting which is where the damage vulnerability comes from, but still pushed by the beam.

[HelmetTooTight]

On 2021-01-10 at 3:24 AM, DrivaMain said:

Enemies take extra damage when they got hit by this ability. Do you even use this ability yourself?

I personally don't. If I want to be doing tons of damage, I'd be using Voidrig. Bonewidow is supposed to be tankier, and I see a lot of problems with the ability synergy that is supposed to make Bonewidow tanky (specifically point 1). I didn't really want to focus on Firing Line since I don't think it really fits the kit thematically or functionally, which is why most of my points were surrounding 1, 2, and 4.

[Ulvra]

I find the dislike that some vent at bonewidow rather weird. The only point I would really agree with here is that sure, if you want to wield both her shield and use meathook at the same time, I don't really have anything against it, though honestly it's more of a disadvantage doing that than it would be a benefit. The only time it'd make sense is if you've got someone skewered and need sudden emergency invulnerability, but that is rare and could be considered too powerful.

 

The benefit of meathook is self heal, which combined with rage makes you able to sustain energy forever. Having a shield at the same time would disable part of your potential energy and end up hindering you, additionally you regenerate enough health that if you play smart you just do not die while you've got an enemy skewered. An additional benefit is that a well applied meathook can take out key enemies and save the whole team. During this operation I've used this to great effect myself to disable battalysts before they would vaporise everyone's mech. Nothing voidrig's got can measure up to that potential.

Shield maiden synergizes with ironbride, making it significantly better, but the real boon of the ability is the moment of immortality you get during damage scaling. This brief moment of respite where you do not have to worry about incoming damage can turn the tide of battle. Again a thing I've used a lot, when my team has been out of their mechs and I've been the only one left to stop the control meter from going nuts, that moment has been enough to stop the orphixes.

Firing line has potential, but it's more a thing to dispose of the horde enemies, which has not been my focus during the operation. It's a great addition to increase the damage output to clean the field at demand, but it will be in general missions where I'll be using this more.

Finally ironbride. Yes it does not have the damage output or reach of voidrig's hail Mary skill, but the key difference is that you can dish out the damage where it counts, all the while you can keep on going and stay mobile.

 

In this operation I'm generally the one alive at the end, who still hasn't lost their mech once, or if it happens, it's a single random battalyst that got me at a bad moment, while every voidrig on the team has been cycling mechs for the final rotation of orphixes.

All in all, voidrig is fine, as long as he stays alive, but when he goes up in smoke, bonewidow is still going strong. She's a mech that benefits from playing things smart and thinking ahead while reacting to the moment, which is personally what I love.

[xxswatelitexx]

They could Fix Firing Line up by a lot where killing enemies in firing line drops Repair Orbs ( to fix necramech ) \ Energy orbs 

IT would be one of the most used abilities overnight. 

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

11 hours ago, xxswatelitexx said:

They could Fix Firing Line up by a lot where killing enemies in firing line drops Repair Orbs ( to fix necramech ) \ Energy orbs 

IT would be one of the most used abilities overnight. 

That's not (edit) a bad idea. Make the ability a version of Hildryn's 4 but where Bonewidow can keep attacking with any weapon

[Teridax68]

I like the suggestions, and I fully agree with the criticism: Bonewidow fails horribly in design, implementation, and balance, and I don't think any real effort was put into making a truly functional Necramech, let alone a good one. While I think it can be okay for a kit to have mutually exclusive abilities if they're intended to be these powerful and complementary modes (after all, that could give the player a degree of choice when deciding which one to use), I don't think that applies to Bonewidow, because its incompatible abilities have overlapping functions, namely survivability. Its 3 is a non-ability, and its 4 does not even remotely compare to Voidrig's Arquebex. In the end, even if its kit were properly balanced... what's the power fantasy here? At least Voidrig's got canisters and mines on top of a turret mode; meanwhile Bonewidow, at its most functional, would just be a big, tanky melee mech, something most warframes can already do far better without the clunky movement. Beyond just proper balancing, Bonewidow I think still needs some serious work to justify its kit.

[xxswatelitexx]

7 hours ago, UUDDLRLRBA_START said:

That's out a bad idea. Make the ability a version of Hildryn's 4 but where Bonewidow can keep attacking with any weapon

Now that's a bad idea. You want Full 360 CC and a Weapon?

Firing Line simply puts enemies infront of you.  

 

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

2 hours ago, xxswatelitexx said:

Now that's a bad idea. You want Full 360 CC and a Weapon?

Firing Line simply puts enemies infront of you.  

 

"that's not a bad idea" 

#*!%ing autocorrect on my phone, LOL

[HelmetTooTight]

18 hours ago, Ulvra said:

though honestly it's more of a disadvantage doing that than it would be a benefit.

I'm not sure I understand your point here. Being able to use both Meathook and Shield at the same time really isn't OP given how fast the shield dies. As I said in my original post (and I think you would agree) is that holding a skewered enemy heavily overshadows using the shield since you may as well just constantly heal yourself rather than have an unreliable damage block that has a cooldown.

Individually, each ability (barring Firing Line imo) has been buffed to the point where they're by themselves "~not terrible~" but they have no synergy, thus the reason for my post.

18 hours ago, Ulvra said:

Shield maiden synergizes with ironbride, making it significantly better

I don't agree with this: what's the current synergy? All Ironbride does for Shield Maiden is increase shield bash damage, which as mentioned in my post is not really useful since I may as well swing the sword for less energy cost and the same damage; on the other hand, Shield Maiden does nothing for Ironbride.

18 hours ago, Ulvra said:

In this operation I'm generally the one alive at the end, who still hasn't lost their mech once, or if it happens, it's a single random battalyst that got me at a bad moment, while every voidrig on the team has been cycling mechs for the final rotation of orphixes.

No offense but I think this might be because your squads aren't using Voidrig correctly. The clan I'm in (Remnants of the Void, the #1 clan on Leaderboards) has really intricate strategies to get 35k+ points, all of which use Voidrig (and none which use Bonewidow). "Death is the best CC," and their scores prove this ideology. You shouldn't die as Voidrig if you spam 2 (which is much more reliable than Bonewidow 2) and just blast everything to death with Arquebex.

[Ulvra]

4 hours ago, HelmetTooTight said:

Being able to use both Meathook and Shield at the same time really isn't OP given how fast the shield dies

The reason I mention it being potentially overpowered is because if you can both be healing yourself and at the same time make yourself invulnerable at the press of a button, that seems to me like it'd be too powerful in a balance perspective. Like I said, I certainly wouldn't mind, but to say there's no synergy I disagree with. It's true that meathook and shieldmaiden don't have a cross synergy, but both have synergies with ironbride.

 

4 hours ago, HelmetTooTight said:

what's the current synergy? All Ironbride does for Shield Maiden is increase shield bash damage

Shield maiden has multiple synergies. First is the damage increase, second is the lifted status which works like a cheaper, quicker firing line if enemies are compacted anyway, and last is a vastly increased block angle. You may argue that it's inferior to storm shroud, but I would argue otherwise. The fact that storm shroud disables all incoming damage is actually a hinderance because it prevents him from benefitting from mods like rage during that duration, while shield maiden doesn't block all incoming damage, thus still allowing you some benefit, while providing you the protection and damage reflection.

It's a matter of taste to a large extent, but I would personally take bonewidow any day over voidrig and this is one of the reasons. There's a reason I never bother to play rhino either, because he has the same issue of just nullifying damage entirely. Whenever I see people playing voidrig they're doing things like dispenser shuffling to keep the energy up, but running strategies like that is just not sustainable, especially because it locks you into certain choices and thus prevents you from playing what you actually want to play.

I don't generally use maiden's kiss very much, but it's nice to have the option.

 

4 hours ago, HelmetTooTight said:

You shouldn't die as Voidrig if you spam 2 (which is much more reliable than Bonewidow 2) and just blast everything to death with Arquebex

Both of those rely on you maintaining your energy levels. As mentioned above, storm shroud hinders your ability to keep your energy up and arquebex just chugs down energy in general, while also leaving you a prime target, open for a spanking. Can voidrig clear the field? Definitely and it's certainly fun doing so, but the "death is the best CC" philosophy is one I'll never sign on to, because it relies entirely on the assumption that you can keep your damage up.

Voidrig's benefit is absolutely ridiculous damage numbers on his arquebex, though it makes you a sitting duck, exactly the thing you don't want to be when a battalyst you haven't noticed does its backwards flip, but if you have no energy, you have no survivability and no arquebex, while CC will disable a target regardless of their specific power level. Also worth mentioning is the fact that you cannot cast storm shroud while you're in guard mode, so you're entirely reliant on your shroud staying in place long enough to allow you to dish out the pain.

 

To argue that bonewidow don't have any synergies is just not true. Compared to voidrig she has a lot more synergies as all he has is a hail Mary, a damage invulnerability aura, grenades and more grenades. Her synergies mainly build into ironbride, rather that crossing into each other, but all her abilities synergize with ironbride itself.

Both mechs are good and both are fun. Each are good at what they do and do what they do very well. Voidrig is a tower, while bonewidow is more the team player who make sure no one come battering at that tower's foundation.

[taiiat]

• Ability 1 & 2 being mutually exclusive makes the Shield just useless, yes.
• Shield Bash should be free while you have the Sword out, yes. i would even say take a small cue from Ivara and make the Shield how you block with the Sword, and do a Shield Bash by attacking while Blocking. the Stance for the Sword if it even has one is pretty trash right now anyways, so that would be an improvement.
• Firing Line could be ok if it cost less and did a better job of doing what it was intended to do - drag all Enemies somewhere in front of you to a line in front of you with a CC effect. that's a fine enough feature but it's both expensive and has a horrendous Animation.
• Throwing Enemies on the Meathook also should have more of an effect. i don't expect it to be a replacement for your Guns or Sword or anything, but more consistently dealing decent Damage as well as atleast like Ragdolling the Enemies affected by it, would help a lot with the presentation of it.
• and as always Meathook is often frustrating to hit Enemies with.

 

• the Shield may as well take Mods by default, yeah. 
• sure, why not, you should be able to skewer an Enemy onto your Sword to make it more powerful. why not. good use of existing Mechanics.

[Teridax68]

After giving it some thought, I think it could help Bonewidow if Meathook and Shield Maiden were combined into the same ability. An idea for an updated kit:

• 1 - Shield Maiden: Bonewidow hooks the nearest enemy, stunning them and draping them across its shield. Damage to Bonewidow is instead redirected to the hooked enemy, who loses health over time.
• 2 - Widow's Veil: Bonewidow sacrifices a portion of its health to grant itself and nearby allies (including necramechs) a degenerative aura, increasing the damage nearby enemies take (scaling with Power Strength), while regenerating health over time.
• 3 - Firing Line: Bonewidow throws a projectile that, on impact, pulls nearby enemies into it and lifts them for a duration.
• 4 - Ironbride: Base stats significantly increased, each swing generates a delayed explosion in the swing arc that deals massive Blast damage to enemies hit.

Effectively, Bonewidow's 1 would have the mech constantly hook enemies to gain protection, its 2 would provide utility and sustain to itself and allies, its 3 would be closer to Vauban's Vortex or Nidus's Larva than the current mediocre effect, and its 4 would have better AoE plus, ideally, damage comparable to Voidrig's Arquebex. In theory at least, this should make Bonewidow more than just a generic tanky melee mech, and instead allow it to support its allies while doing a greater variety of things in melee range.