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[Repost] Taming Riven Mods RNG Proposal.


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This is a repost from an old thread of mine with some adjustments. I would rather do a repost than necroing a 2 month old thread.
 

Viewing the thread regarding the riven mods survey results made me feel like Riven Mods RNG needs to be touched again. The Goal of the riven system to supercharge Off Meta weapons is great, but it has one major mechanic that made people dislike the system, which is RNG.

No reward system in Warframe has reached this level of ridiculousness in terms of RNG except Riven Mods. I will pull a user reply from the old thread to support my claim. This touch on rerolling. Thanks to @Angwah for providing this :

Quote

After unveiling a specific riven there are about 48K possible combinations of positives and negatives.

To be exact, one specific result comes down to 0,00245%.

Now, obviously more than 1 possible combination will be acceptable, but consider this:

You need more than 400 combination to be acceptable to push the odds above 1%. 

Which is... ludicrous. And in case you are wondering, 'god rolls' are much, much tighter than that.

Lets say we accept the typical god-roll attributes Damage, Multishot, Crit Chance and Crit Damage as positives (4 total) and up to 11 possible negatives (e.g. Status Duration, Magazine Capacity, Ammo Maximum, Flight Speed, Reload Speed, Recoil, Zoom, Damage vs X *3, None)

Yes, I know, for some weapons other positives and negatives are acceptable, but hey, we got to start somewhere! And to broaden our range, lets say we also accept 2 positives.

Anyway:

Possible combinations with 2 positives = #positives * (#positives-1) * #negatives/2 = 4*3*11/2 = 66

Let add the number of combinations with 3 positives =#positives * (#positives-1) * (#positives-2) #negatives/6 = 4*3*2*11/6 = 44

So, a Riven with the 4 classic god stats with either 2 or 3 positives, with or without a negative (10 possibilities and 'none') are about 110 combinations out of 40.756. And some of those negatives would be no-goes, so this range is already wider than a proper god roll. Yikes. For reference, a range of six to 7 possible positives and 11 negatives are needed to get to odds of around 1%.

And all of this is starting from an unveiled riven we actually want...

Nope, this RNG is way, way out of wack...


Now onto unveiling. I will echo my statement from the old thread :

Quote

Every time a new unique weapon gets released the odds of unveiling gets lower and lower.

Deimos Arcana for example just introduced 3 primary weapons, 1 melee, and 2 new kitguns. Because of that, 3 primary weapons have entered the primary weapon unveil pool and 2 kitguns have entered the kitgun unveil pool. Future new weapons will cause this effect as well.

With the current state of the RNG of riven mods it is improbable to get a specific riven stat for a weapon you want from actually engaging in the riven system. The only way to get that is to spend platinum or you are extremely lucky.

Now onto my proposal. The goal of this proposal is to add some sort of “bad luck protection” and rewards long time engagement into the system while including some randomness to make riven mods still respected in the market in terms of value. This will be a repost from the old thread. 

 

Quote

 

  1. Limited Stat locking : using riven slivers we can now lock a stat in a riven mod for the next 3 subsequent rolls. I got CD on my riven, but I want another stats which is CC for example. You can now use riven slivers to lock it for the next 3 rolls. If you don’t use slivers on 4th roll the CD stat will be rerolled. This will make riven slivers have another use.
  2. Roll “Milestones” : You have bad luck. You only get that stupid stat you do not want and after 100 rolls you still not get the stat you want. Wouldn’t it be nice that your investment finally have a return? Introducing Riven Roll Milestones, every time you reach a certain roll count you can choose one stat that you want either be positive or negative stat into your riven mod. The milestones would be 100, 200, 400, 800, etc rolls. The stat value are still random, but this will help players with bad luck to engage with the system. 

For Unveiling it will be like point 2 in the reroll proposal, which is a milestone system. If you unveil 10 pistol riven mods for example on the 10th unveil you can choose which weapon the riven mod will fit into.

How will this affect the riven market? I will list 2 possible scenarios

  1. Best Roll rivens will take a hit obviously. But I believe it won’t be that much to be worthless, maybe it will reach Arcane Energize level of prices when there is no event that gave them away like candy.
  2. Veiled Riven Mods prices will go up because with the milestone system in place players will be more motivated to engage in the riven system and with the limited way of obtaining it will definitely happen. Hooray for veiled riven traders.

How will this benefit the riven system? I will list some benefits :

  1. It will significantly reduce if not remove the negativity regarding the riven system.
  2. it will diversify the meta because riven system can actually supercharge off meta weapons with a reasonable acquisition process. So players are more interested to experiment.
  3. Reducing the risk of investments. Players will less likey to go full hysteria every time the disposition changes. 

Please keep discussion civil. Constructive criticism is always appreciated.

Edited by DrivaMain
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I think those 2 points in the last quote could work actually :]

It wouldn't be a permanent use regarding the riven slivers, which not only gives the player a choice of either; Keep using some riven slivers every few rolls, or if they change their mind, they can let the Riven be randomized fully again (That stat of it that is).

 

With the 2nd point there, I believe giving the players a return on investment actually is considerate for the individual player to boot, rewarding their time. I do have one question though, with choosing a positive or negative stat, would that include the type of stat too? Such as choosing negative impact or positive status chance? Would the chosen stat be placed in a certain row on the riven (From the top-down), as far as future rolls go?

  • It sounds to me like you can gradually still finish an ideal build, at least with getting all the right stats after long enough! I think that's a fair personal-price to pay for the results you can achieve; Even if the stat value isn't high enough on something, maybe it still can be after a disposition change. In the meantime you don't need to worry about it as much (Like getting a whole new riven just for a new set of stats perhaps, this would solve that too).

 

That said as far as platinum goes, I personally prefer trading things for other things rather than selling for platinum (Not that I have anything against the Riven Market's high prices in and of itself); But from what I've seen every now & then on Switch, I think the prices will still level out after long enough, even if it's not as high as it is now. I imagine there's still ways to gradually build up one's plat in order to buy a riven, it just takes some time and people who need what you have.

  • Although as I haven't bought a lot in the way of rivens in the past (Lesion for 70pl, Mausolon for 150pl, and an Imperator Vandal partial set (3/4 parts) + riven for 65pl), I'm not sure if I'm the most-informed on riven prices :)
     
    • With my rivens, I just try to focus on getting the ideal types of stats, and worry about the slight differences in numbers later (Such as Multishot % or certain out-of-the-box results like negative impact on my Imperator riven (It became a near-perfect roll for Empyrean for what I need, so it's a nice thing to work towards)).

 

All in all, I suppose that this sort of change might take some getting used to at first for some invested in the riven market (Or others who don't focus on the platinum part of it, but getting rolls), but I believe it will reward everyone who wants to work with adding rivens to their builds. Plus, players might really enjoy the results of their work (At least that's how I feel about finishing builds), by using the rivens in future content (Such as Orphix Venom for consoles), and Corpus Railjack.

 

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Gamer-Steve said:

I do have one question though, with choosing a positive or negative stat, would that include the type of stat too? Such as choosing negative impact or positive status chance? Would the chosen stat be placed in a certain row on the riven (From the top-down), as far as future rolls go?

Yes you can choose any stat you want. I put a very steep requirement so players are more interested engaging in the system long term and keeping too many “God Rolls” from flowing too much in the market.

This will also encourage players to try out other riven stats instead of the usual “CC CD MS” Meta. I am sure some meme builders will be drooling over this change. -Projectile speed rivens anyone?

Edited by DrivaMain
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24 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Yes you can choose any stat you want. I put a very steep requirement so players are more interested engaging in the system long term and keeping too many “God Rolls” from flowing too much in the market.

This will also encourage players to try out other riven stats instead of the usual “CC CD MS” Meta. I am sure some meme builders will be drooling over this change. -Projectile speed rivens anyone?

Ooh, those are some good points too, good to know :)

 

I didn't even realize about the scientific applications people could test out! As far as the "God roll" term goes, I think if someone wants to call their riven that then more power to them, but I'd just focus on getting a riven roll that I need or like regardless of any sort of meta type things.

  • In a sense forging my own path on a riven-involved build basically, while still acknowledging (Sometimes reading or understanding about) the strong things that there may be; Whether or not one of those things is included in said build. But I do like +Multishot rather often coincidentally :)

 

I think having the milestones be that far in is a smart move. For actually being able to affect your personal riven going forward, it should need a pretty decent undertaking of effort and / or Kuva.

I don't doubt that even those who are in the business of selling rivens for a few hundred plat will appreciate a change like this, since it'll relieve a lot of stress about how much of their time is being invested (The not-knowing can be quite stressful); To an extent, one will finally have some comfort knowing that somewhere down the road they can get a more ideal personal set of riven stat types for their needs.

However much the stat values are, in my opinion, would probably be a less concerning thing :)

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Terrible solution - however, it can be fixed with a small tweak.

All weapons of a certain disposition or greater will be removed from the riven chance rolls. So a (eg) redeemer will simply never be part of the riven system any more, (as it obviously doesn't need it) and thus the chance of getting a weapon you like and use will be increased.

Of course, if I'm cyncial and think this proposal is only there to increase the ability to get that redeemer riven, then.. well, its the opposite of what the riven system is for.

You could also increase the chance of a reveal from a weapon you have in your inventory aslo, which won't give you the choice, but would increase the chances of getting something you'd use. I still think dropping the "good" weapons entirely makes a ton of sense.

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Really like the idea of locking stats with Riven Slivers. I would go further and allow permanent stat locking (a higher cost would be acceptable). More player agency would make the Riven experience significantly better.

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7 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

Terrible solution - however, it can be fixed with a small tweak.

All weapons of a certain disposition or greater will be removed from the riven chance rolls. So a (eg) redeemer will simply never be part of the riven system any more, (as it obviously doesn't need it) and thus the chance of getting a weapon you like and use will be increased.

Of course, if I'm cyncial and think this proposal is only there to increase the ability to get that redeemer riven, then.. well, its the opposite of what the riven system is for.

You could also increase the chance of a reveal from a weapon you have in your inventory aslo, which won't give you the choice, but would increase the chances of getting something you'd use. I still think dropping the "good" weapons entirely makes a ton of sense.

That’s why disposition exist. To discourage the use of meta rivens. Also weapon removal is not a good idea, we all know the meta always changes who knows the Redeemer will fall out of the meta 3 years from now and become “MR Fodder”. 


 

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3 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

That’s why disposition exist

In a very broken way. Nobody cares for a +1000% damage to the Stug, but will roll and roll and roll until they get that +50% CC on whatever the popular weapons are. Hence the idea of removing the popular ones (until they become less popular, then they can be added back again, and some new low-dispo guns can be removed)(ie imagine that anything with a dispo less than 1 simply doesn't drop anymore). Then there is a definite advantage to using the 'less good' ones, or perhaps nobody will use rivens at all anymore. Which if I am right, would suggest that the whole riven system is effectively broken - ie works only to buff desirable weapons while ignoring all others.

 

I mean go ahead, try and sell a kreska, viper or boar riven.

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While this the most Sensible Thread regarding fixing Riven Mods I've seen so far....

I must stand firm in my belief that Rivens are bad and must be completely Removed.

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On 2021-01-15 at 7:12 AM, Lutesque said:

I must stand firm in my belief that Rivens are bad and must be completely Removed.

We are too late on removal. The backlash will be too great. The best thing we can do is fix the system.

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My gripe is that since GOD DAMN release of rivens I have yet to unveil a riven for a weapon I like, use, or that is even in my inventory!!! It's absolutely frustrating.

And no, putting Plat on the table for x roll or weapon is not the same. I tried, doesn't feel right, doesn't feel like an achievement and doesn't feel like progression. 

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13 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

We are too late on removal. The backlash will be too great. The best thing we can do is fix the system.

It's beyond Fixing... The best thing they can do now is Band Aid the System....

11 hours ago, fo3nixz said:

make them untradeable

Honestly IL just take this by itself....

I don't even Trade Rivens often... I just wanna see what will happen 😈

11 hours ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

My gripe is that since GOD DAMN release of rivens I have yet to unveil a riven for a weapon I like, use, or that is even in my inventory!!! It's absolutely frustrating.

Me too.... The Rivens for my Favourite Weapons were always Traded... Never Unveiled...

 

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On 2021-01-12 at 11:29 AM, DrivaMain said:

This is a repost from an old thread of mine with some adjustments. I would rather do a repost than necroing a 2 month old thread.
 

Viewing the thread regarding the riven mods survey results made me feel like Riven Mods RNG needs to be touched again. The Goal of the riven system to supercharge Off Meta weapons is great, but it has one major mechanic that made people dislike the system, which is RNG.

No reward system in Warframe has reached this level of ridiculousness in terms of RNG except Riven Mods. I will pull a user reply from the old thread to support my claim. This touch on rerolling. Thanks to @Angwah for providing this :


Now onto unveiling. I will echo my statement from the old thread :

Deimos Arcana for example just introduced 3 primary weapons, 1 melee, and 2 new kitguns. Because of that, 3 primary weapons have entered the primary weapon unveil pool and 2 kitguns have entered the kitgun unveil pool. Future new weapons will cause this effect as well.

With the current state of the RNG of riven mods it is improbable to get a specific riven stat for a weapon you want from actually engaging in the riven system. The only way to get that is to spend platinum or you are extremely lucky.

Now onto my proposal. The goal of this proposal is to add some sort of “bad luck protection” and rewards long time engagement into the system while including some randomness to make riven mods still respected in the market in terms of value. This will be a repost from the old thread. 

 

For Unveiling it will be like point 2 in the reroll proposal, which is a milestone system. If you unveil 10 pistol riven mods for example on the 10th unveil you can choose which weapon the riven mod will fit into.

How will this affect the riven market? I will list 2 possible scenarios

  1. Best Roll rivens will take a hit obviously. But I believe it won’t be that much to be worthless, maybe it will reach Arcane Energize level of prices when there is no event that gave them away like candy.
  2. Veiled Riven Mods prices will go up because with the milestone system in place players will be more motivated to engage in the riven system and with the limited way of obtaining it will definitely happen. Hooray for veiled riven traders.

How will this benefit the riven system? I will list some benefits :

  1. It will significantly reduce if not remove the negativity regarding the riven system.
  2. it will diversify the meta because riven system can actually supercharge off meta weapons with a reasonable acquisition process. So players are more interested to experiment.
  3. Reducing the risk of investments. Players will less likey to go full hysteria every time the disposition changes. 

Please keep discussion civil. Constructive criticism is always appreciated.

It would also give players more reason to buy riven slots. Seriously, I never botheted buying those because I never get decent rivens.

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Good ideas overall but I think a better and easier way of improving the riven system is to give the option of replacing a riven stat to something you want. Have it cost something like 350,000 (worth 100 late rolls) or 175,000 (if DE is feeling generous) kuva per stat. It reduces the RNG but we have to grind really hard for it.

Edited by SugarRoll
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57 minutes ago, SugarRoll said:

Good ideas overall but I think a better and easier way of improving the riven system is to give the option of replacing a riven stat to something you want. Have it cost something like 350,000 (worth 100 late rolls) or 175,000 (if DE is feeling generous) kuva per stat. It reduces the RNG but we have to grind really hard for it.

But... that is my suggestion. Except that you need to roll the riven 100 x number of milestones reached so  you can get a guaranteed stat 

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8 hours ago, SugarRoll said:

Was it? Can't read some parts of your post.Check the quoted parts of your original post. Some text are invisible.

Have you clicked the “show more” button?
 

4 hours ago, Xikto said:

I am positively sure the odds of DE actually listening to this one is less than getting a god roll riven, prove me wrong DE!

The only way for the odds to be guaranteed is at least gather a community sized to scream this change at DE. 

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20 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Have you clicked the “show more” button?
 

Yes. Specifically your last quote in the first post. The text is invisible. Now that I went back to it, I had to highlight the invisible text to be able to read it.

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3 minutes ago, SugarRoll said:

Yes. Specifically your last quote in the first post. The text is invisible. Now that I went back to it, I had to highlight the invisible text to be able to read it.

I can see it in dark theme. Maybe it’s having issues on the light theme?

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It might be worth editing the font color you used if you want more people to be able to read your entire post.

But now that I've had a chance to read your entire post, my original post still holds true. I had to read your limited stat locking and roll milestones multiple times to understand it's full implications. My suggestion is simpler and much easier for DE to implement. Players will only need to roll a riven a few times to get a couple of desired stats and then just choose to replace the unwanted ones for a hefty amount of kuva.

Your suggestion involves rerolling and stat locking hundreds of times to eventually hit the roll milestones. It's more cumbersome for players compared to my suggestion and DE will have to implement two features (limited stat locking and roll milestones) instead of one (riven stat replacement). Our suggestions achieves the same results but my path to it is more straightforward in my opinion.

 

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I really like the idea of using riven slivers to lock in a stat. I think it might make sense to actually make it permanent, so you aren't just going to use a riven sliver for any old stat, you are going to wait until you get something really good. Maybe make them like Ayatans in sense they have 'slot' or visually, more like Requiem mods with three pips. They have three slots for a sliver. When there's nothing in the slot, the stats can be rolled with kuva. If you add a sliver in the slot it locks that stat forever.

I'm not a fan of kuva-rolling milestones. It feels liked of strange and different from other systems in WF, at least to me, and I think for most people it wouldn't accomplish much and I think fixing the rng will make it unnecessary.

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