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Why only 1 Helminth ability per loadout?


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Guess I should have RTM but after a good amount of grinding I discovered today that I can't put two subsumed abilities on the same loadout. Bummer!!

Why not let give us the freedom to make more flexible builds? That's the fun after all. Very few powerful abilities made the cut and the ones that did are being balanced out so I just wish we could replace any/all abilities we don't use with subsumed ones making this functionality more interesting.

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I suppose it's possible but I doubt it. I do get your point that there would be a LOT more potential combinations. Still, DE already restricts to 1 damage buffing ability per frame and has a carefully selected list of subsumables. I haven't played with the unique Helminth abilities yet but what you're implying is the synergy between subsumable abilities would make frames OP. I think it would rather round them out.

Example: Mirage with ensare on her 2 and reave on her 4. Give's some weak CC and a chance to heal which she definetly needs. Play style is much more interactive that way. I don't know that would make her OP though.

Edited by Mynaira
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Because common sense? 

The one ability alone opened the door to powercreep that they probably want to observe overe time before making any new changes to the system. 

People that aren't very knowledgeable about the game may not notice, but people that are knowledgeable can find many niches, which spread throughout the community and result in adjustments.

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They haven't even had time to get a handle on balancing for single helminth abilities.    I mean, just to take two extreme examples, on the one hand we've got Decoy and the other hand Pillage.  That's two very different problems to solve.

Also might have something to do with them remembering how much of the vocal part of the playerbase had the mother of all freakouts when they announced  pre-release nerfs to the subsumed versions of a few abilities.

I can imagine DE trying to be a little more cautious this time.   At least until the ¡HYPE TRAIN! is ready to roll again.

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25 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

They haven't even had time to get a handle on balancing for single helminth abilities.    I mean, just to take two extreme examples, on the one hand we've got Decoy and the other hand Pillage.  That's two very different problems to solve.

Also might have something to do with them remembering how much of the vocal part of the playerbase had the mother of all freakouts when they announced  pre-release nerfs to the subsumed versions of a few abilities.

I can imagine DE trying to be a little more cautious this time.   At least until the ¡HYPE TRAIN! is ready to roll again.

Good point that we need to finish adjusting for the new system before considering expansion. I can understand that the game is constantly about introducing new things (that create imbalance) then trying to create an equilibrium so it doesn't become annoying. I'll wait to see what shakes out - some frames are really fun to play because of how well their abilities sync. Others feel forced or like the ability was intended to be trash from inception. Was just looking forward to "fixing" some of those promising frames by making them more playable but I'll settle for what I can get for now. It's still progress.

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2 hours ago, Mynaira said:

Example: Mirage with ensare on her 2 and reave on her 4. Give's some weak CC and a chance to heal which she definetly needs. Play style is much more interactive that way. I don't know that would make her OP though.

Give her literally any ability from octavia along with her resonator. Now every warframe is broken.

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1 hour ago, Mynaira said:

Good point that we need to finish adjusting for the new system before considering expansion. I can understand that the game is constantly about introducing new things (that create imbalance) then trying to create an equilibrium so it doesn't become annoying. I'll wait to see what shakes out - some frames are really fun to play because of how well their abilities sync. Others feel forced or like the ability was intended to be trash from inception. Was just looking forward to "fixing" some of those promising frames by making them more playable but I'll settle for what I can get for now. It's still progress.

Yeah, I can sympathize, for sure.   Too many frames have two or even three lackluster abilities.

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5 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Because more than one helminth ability would open up the door for too many overpowered builds....

Just (genuinely) curious, what kind of OP builds are you envisioning that surpass what we can do currently?

And if there indeed would be some too-extreme wombo combos, DE could again prevent using certain abilities together on the same Frame.

2 hours ago, Aadi880 said:

Give her literally any ability from octavia along with her resonator. Now every warframe is broken.

I don't think anyone here asked for multiple abilities per Warframe to be subsumable,
the topic is about using multiple of the current Helminth'd abilities at once.

4 hours ago, Miser_able said:

maintaining the spirit of the frame

That's the most reasonable counter-argument as far as I'm concerned.

... still, anything that encourages me to more often use cool-looking Frames whose kit I find utterly meh, gimme gimme gimme :P

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3 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Just (genuinely) curious, what kind of OP builds are you envisioning that surpass what we can do currently?

Off the top of my head

Warcry + roar combo on most frames

Warcry + smite

Spectrorage + pillage

Empower + anything that benefits from it

Well of life + decoy

Firewalker + molt

 

The interactions may not be godlike levels of overpowered but the interactions are more powerful than intended. 

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19 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Warcry + roar combo on most frames

That is not allowed currently, I see no reason why it should become available.

(Though personally I don't even find it particularly awesome, either one of those is kind of already overkill for Melee pwnage.)

19 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Warcry + smite

Spectrorage + pillage

Empower + anything that benefits from it

Well of life + decoy

Firewalker + molt

You can do all of these already, and none of them really appear as OP to me as e.g. just vanilla Saryn is.

Maybe I'm missing something there, could you go into detail what's so broken about those combos?

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Wait, the option to give Inaros a whole 2 functional abilities? What madness is this?!

He already has 2, though.

Dessication gives mass CC and (healing) Finisher funzies, Augment'd Scarab Swarm is a nifty bit of Status immunity.

Mind, Devour and Sandstorm ... yeah, those need some help still, and I'm not saying the above 2 are perfect or anything either, heh.

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6 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

That is not allowed currently, I see no reason why it should become available.

(Though personally I don't even find it particularly awesome, either one of those is kind of already overkill for Melee pwnage.)

You can do all of these already, and none of them really appear as OP to me as e.g. just vanilla Saryn is.

Maybe I'm missing something there, could you go into detail what's so broken about those combos?

Warcry + Roar is allowed....

Also, I never said any of those combos is broken. I said they're overpowered. As in, they are not within the scope of balance currently in the game. There is a difference between broken and overpowered. Broken is extreme, overpowered is simply more powerful than is appropriate. I could also use the world imbalanced if it helps make my point more clear.

7 hours ago, Leqesai said:

The interactions may not be godlike levels of overpowered but the interactions are more powerful than intended. 

And the entire point of my response is, of course you can do all of those combos already... but you can't do all of those combos on any frame... Of course you can do warcry + smite on oberon or valkyr, but if you could subsume multiple abilities it opens up the warcry + smite combo on on all frames while retaining 2/4 of the original frame's abilities. The potential for unintended interactions should be pretty obvious...

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41 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Warcry + Roar is allowed....

Ah right, my bad.

But then, that kinda strengthens my second point from that post, you already can have that combo right now on Rhino / Valkyr,
and even in a stronger form than what Helminth would give other Frames if you could multi-inject.

51 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I said they're overpowered. As in, they are not within the scope of balance currently in the game.

Again, I ask you to expand on why. What makes them OP?

Is it something that, I dunno, lets you cheese hour-long Survivals or something, somehow?

55 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

if you could subsume multiple abilities it opens up the warcry + smite combo on on all frames while retaining 2/4 of the original frame's abilities. The potential for unintended interactions should be pretty obvious...

Well I guess I'm just too stupid, it's not obvious to me. Please, teach me da wae.

Just one or two examples of Frames, or rather full builds if possible, where a combo like that would be just wrong to have.

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12 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

Ah right, my bad.

But then, that kinda strengthens my second point from that post, you already can have that combo right now on Rhino / Valkyr,
and even in a stronger form than what Helminth would give other Frames if you could multi-inject.

Again, I ask you to expand on why. What makes them OP?

Is it something that, I dunno, lets you cheese hour-long Survivals or something, somehow?

Well I guess I'm just too stupid, it's not obvious to me. Please, teach me da wae.

Just one or two examples of Frames, or rather full builds if possible, where a combo like that would be just wrong to have.

I already gave you examples of why it is imbalanced. 

Let me be very clear.

More than one subsumable ability means you are able to combine subsumed abilities to create cross-frame interactions that are not intended. The fact that it is not intended means it is not within the scope of balance.

You seem fixated on this idea that there are combinations that would be broken or godlike. That's not the point...

 

But to humor you I will elaborate on one interaction.

Pillage + Spectrorage

Pillage and Spectrorage are among the most powerful single abilities available to subsume. Pillage because it can refresh shields and provide overshields and Spectrorage because it is really strong CC and a very powerful source of energy regeneration.

Having Pillage and Spectrorage available on all frames means they essentially have access to a very simple combo that provides a ton of shields and a ton of energy while still having access to 2/4 of their core abilities.

Is it godlike? Absolutely not and no one is implying it is. Is it intended gameplay to have a team of 4 people will pillage and spectrorage in their loadout even though none of the frames are Gara or Hildryn? No way.

 

What about a group of 4 warcry + roar oberons who are also able to self buff with smite and give tons of armor and health regen?

Again... not broken but it is (at least to me) obviously not intended within the scope of current warframe balance.

 

Helminth is not needed to 'cheese hour-long survivals...' anyway... 

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5 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

More than one subsumable ability means you are able to combine subsumed abilities to create cross-frame interactions that are not intended.

By this, you simply mean "this Frame now has a bunch of abilities that are each good on their own" I guess?

Because to me, "unintended interactions" would mean ability interactions, as in synergies and stuff,
so that is where a good deal of my confusion comes from.

11 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

really strong CC and a very powerful source of energy regeneration [...] available on all frames

Plenty of Frames have decent to awesome innate CC abilities already, plus there's Magus Lockdown for free CC not least.

Energy is kind of even less of an issue, lol Energize / Zenurik / Pizzas / whatnot.

14 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Is it intended gameplay to have a team of 4 people will pillage and spectrorage in their loadout even though none of the frames are Gara or Hildryn? No way.

Ignoring how that would be a pretty redundant Squad composition, your stance doesn't seem to align with DE's actions.

DE gave us Helminth, they allowed us to have abilities from other Frames on any Frame we want. That happened. Intentionally.

You can, right now, have a Squad of 4 use abilities from 8 different Frames. Yet it's a problem if a Squad uses 6 Frames' abilities?

24 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

What about a group of 4 warcry + roar oberons who are also able to self buff with smite and give tons of armor and health regen?

(You just put 5 abilities on those Broberons, unless you meant to mix & match Smite / Renewal / Hallowed Ground among several.)

TBH, that seems like a nice Squad, I wish more people would play Oberon, and if they do, actually use (builds that keep up) Renewal :D

28 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

obviously not intended within the scope of current warframe balance

Being tanky and dishing out good weapon damage is ... just fine in my book.

That Squad can't nuke ESO & co, it can't cheese through Spy lasers, it can't make easy Conservation captures,
it can't keep an entire Interception map on lockdown, it can't ignore low Energy or weapon restriction Sortie conditions,
it can't produce additional drops, it can't make ammo just appear, or reduce ammo costs by 75%,
it can't ... do a lot more stuff that my addled mind doesn't want to think of right now :P

I'm not just saying that Warframe is an unbalanced (glorious) mess, but ... it very much is that, among other (fun) things.
Having multiple [carefully(ish) selected, nerfed if deemed necessary] Helminth abilities on 1 Frame,
sorry but I just don't agree with you that that would make a significant difference in the (un)balance of the game at this point.

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25 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

By this, you simply mean "this Frame now has a bunch of abilities that are each good on their own" I guess?

Because to me, "unintended interactions" would mean ability interactions, as in synergies and stuff,
so that is where a good deal of my confusion comes from.

Plenty of Frames have decent to awesome innate CC abilities already, plus there's Magus Lockdown for free CC not least.

Energy is kind of even less of an issue, lol Energize / Zenurik / Pizzas / whatnot.

Ignoring how that would be a pretty redundant Squad composition, your stance doesn't seem to align with DE's actions.

DE gave us Helminth, they allowed us to have abilities from other Frames on any Frame we want. That happened. Intentionally.

You can, right now, have a Squad of 4 use abilities from 8 different Frames. Yet it's a problem if a Squad uses 6 Frames' abilities?

(You just put 5 abilities on those Broberons, unless you meant to mix & match Smite / Renewal / Hallowed Ground among several.)

TBH, that seems like a nice Squad, I wish more people would play Oberon, and if they do, actually use (builds that keep up) Renewal :D

Being tanky and dishing out good weapon damage is ... just fine in my book.

That Squad can't nuke ESO & co, it can't cheese through Spy lasers, it can't make easy Conservation captures,
it can't keep an entire Interception map on lockdown, it can't ignore low Energy or weapon restriction Sortie conditions,
it can't produce additional drops, it can't make ammo just appear, or reduce ammo costs by 75%,
it can't ... do a lot more stuff that my addled mind doesn't want to think of right now :P

I'm not just saying that Warframe is an unbalanced (glorious) mess, but ... it very much is that, among other (fun) things.
Having multiple [carefully(ish) selected, nerfed if deemed necessary] Helminth abilities on 1 Frame,
sorry but I just don't agree with you that that would make a significant difference in the (un)balance of the game at this point.

song GIF

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