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So.. Primed Surefooted


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I run PSF on many frames because I despise knockback.  But it should not be as necessary as it is to not be constantly getting knocked around.  I have never even heard of a game that just ragdolls players all over the map as much as this one does unless it's some meme game specifically about that kind of thing.  It's absolutely absurd and it's why there are routinely new players coming in to complain about it, because it's not something most people are or should be used to because it's bad game design.  The more experienced players haven't gotten better or started having it happen less.  I see it all the time on myself and with whoever I'm playing with.  People have just gotten used to it and conditioned to think it's okay.

And for a 16 drain primed mod that only comes from login and is literally only a bandaid for this poor game design, why the hell do all the knockbacks still constantly move my frames around while it's equipped?  My frame should not move at all unless I want it to if I have this stupid ass mod on.

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6 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I know it's not the ideal solution but Rhino is immune to knockdown and so are several others using abilities.

Revenant's Mesmer Skin works well against knockdown too. Not to mention stunning said enemies. Self stagger with explosions as well. Makes using Sporelacer a breeze in SP without fear of knocking myself over every other shot.

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13 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Agreed. I think it is important for people to learn the game more first in general before getting too many of the crutches this game has. 

Those crutches are fun qol for players who already know what they are doing, but by no means should be available too early or too easily. 

For example, I started playing at like the beginning of 2015 if email validation is anything to go by. I have never once slotted primed sure footed. I cannot remember the last time I slotted handspring (I think before I started messing with all the new drift mods upon their release years ago). 

And I cannot remember the last time knock downs or knock backs were any kind of issue for me. 

PSF usefulness really depends on what you are doing IMO. I run lots of endurance and it's a borderline mandatory mod in those situations. If you get knocked down there is a good chance you're as good as dead. For everyday missions PSF does not really matter, you have time to get up before you're killed. 

It also depends on the weapons you use and how you're using them. My new favorite primary is Proboscis Cernos, I use it to group enemies, prime for CO then melee. I couldn't use that weapon the way I prefer to use it without running PSF. I've also used Kuva Ogris, Scourge, Phantasma and Shedu as utility primaries and PSF makes that possible. 

I started getting into running endurance around day 200 and had to wait another 200 days before I could really finish any build. It sucked. I knew exactly what I wanted and there was absolutely nothing I could do. It's a huge qol improvement that that's locked behind a year+ daily log ins. It doesn't take that long to learn basic game mechanics, Locking mods behind log in rewards just doesn't make any sense to me. 

A few days before day 400 I started to forma almost 40 frames with D polarity exilus slots and don't regret it for a second.

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13 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

PSF usefulness really depends on what you are doing IMO. I run lots of endurance and it's a borderline mandatory mod in those situations. If you get knocked down there is a good chance you're as good as dead. For everyday missions PSF does not really matter, you have time to get up before you're killed. 

It also depends on the weapons you use and how you're using them. My new favorite primary is Proboscis Cernos, I use it to group enemies, prime for CO then melee. I couldn't use that weapon the way I prefer to use it without running PSF. I've also used Kuva Ogris, Scourge, Phantasma and Shedu as utility primaries and PSF makes that possible. 

I started getting into running endurance around day 200 and had to wait another 200 days before I could really finish any build. It sucked. I knew exactly what I wanted and there was absolutely nothing I could do. It's a huge qol improvement that that's locked behind a year+ daily log ins. It doesn't take that long to learn basic game mechanics, Locking mods behind log in rewards just doesn't make any sense to me. 

A few days before day 400 I started to forma almost 40 frames with D polarity exilus slots and don't regret it for a second.

I think there are a couple things to unpack here. 

For starters, I want to be clear, while I think it shouldn't be too easy to get, that doesn't mean I think log in rewards are the best spot for primed mods. I think they should be earnable in another way. 

Ideally something like PSF (that is so weird to me to write, because I was a barista for years and that is the code for Pumpkin Spice Frappuccinno) lmao. Anyways, something like PSF should ideally be earnable based on beating movement based challenges to show you deserve that quality of life and have already learned those basic skills (I don't know if anyone remembers when the devs were thinking about doing something similar for earning stance mods but that was put on a backburner and forgotten years ago). As you said, login days is no indicator whether or not you have learned to properly parkour or use other movement tricks (such as melee momentum) to stay on your feet. 

As for what you are describing, people survived in endurance runs for hours before PSF, but I get what you are saying, it is a qol tool that increases the amount of options you have in long endurance runs. If you don't have to worry about knockdowns in a really long run, there are more strategies you can use, and of course with the knockback on explosive weapons it certainly is a big qol tool for any weapon that used to do self damage (I miss those days, don't like the removal of self damage, but nothing I can do but accept it). 

Not saying it should be locked behind logins, just that it shouldn't be right out front and center, let people learn a little something first. Should it be reasonably earnable though? Yes, just not thrown in people's faces before they have learned movement. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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1 hour ago, (XBOX)Goochklok said:

Revenant's Mesmer Skin works well against knockdown too. Not to mention stunning said enemies. Self stagger with explosions as well. Makes using Sporelacer a breeze in SP without fear of knocking myself over every other shot.

Oh yeh I forgot that one, cheers :)

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1 hour ago, Alianee said:

I understand your point with goals, but using "Login" is not really a way to make it harder to get. If you use it as a 5% Chance on Steel Path Ropalolyst or something like that it would be much more of a goal and more of a challenge than "Press login 400 times". 

That doesn't work, if you put it as a reward anywhere in the game,  players will just buy it which also isn't a challenge.

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Are you telling me you don't love being staggered/stunned/flying for half a minute non-stop in a high level survival when Malice invades you for the 20th time in the past 10 minutes? Why is that?

 

-Warframe devs

 

seriously DE, do you guys even have game designers?

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12 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I think there are a couple things to unpack here. 

For starters, I want to be clear, while I think it shouldn't be too easy to get, that doesn't mean I think log in rewards are the best spot for primed mods. I think they should be earnable in another way. 

Ideally something like PSF (that is so weird to me to write, because I was a barista for years and that is the code for Pumpkin Spice Frappuccinno) lmao. Anyways, something like PSF should ideally be earnable based on beating movement based challenges to show you deserve that quality of life and have already learned those basic skills (I don't know if anyone remembers when the devs were thinking about doing something similar for earning stance mods but that was put on a backburner and forgotten years ago). As you said, login days is no indicator whether or not you have learned to properly parkour or use other movement tricks (such as melee momentum) to stay on your feet. 

As for what you are describing, people survived in endurance runs for hours before PSF, but I get what you are saying, it is a qol tool that increases the amount of options you have in long endurance runs. If you don't have to worry about knockdowns in a really long run, there are more strategies you can use, and of course with the knockback on explosive weapons it certainly is a big qol tool for any weapon that used to do self damage (I miss those days, don't like the removal of self damage, but nothing I can do but accept it). 

Not saying it should be locked behind logins, just that it shouldn't be right out front and center, let people learn a little something first. Should it be reasonably earnable though? Yes, just not thrown in people's faces before they have learned movement. 

Pumpkin Spice Frappuccinno....Ewwwwwwww

Anyways, back on topic. I've always disliked the the primed mods as log in rewards. Almost everything else can be acquired at a pace determined by the player. I understand the purpose of log in rewards, it get's player to log in daily and gives them something to look forward to. Locking the accusation of mods behind years of log ins just seems a bit excessive though. You can't really earn them, you're just stuck playing the waiting game.  

I was thinking that maybe moving the log in primed mods to MR rewards could be an acceptable solution. You would essentially get tested for access to the mods that would have been beneficial to that test. Prove you don't need PSF to beat a MR test with lots of enemies that knock down/stagger you and you've earned the mod prevents that mechanic. Beat a melee only MR test and you earn Primed Fury. 

MR test rewards might not be the best solution either but, at least you earned the mods and weren't just given them after waiting years. I haven't really put much thought into it after I got what I wanted from log in rewards. 

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5 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

I disagree, DE has been making Warframe to easy of late, some things should stay the same and not just be added to rewards for some players to abuse the system for personal gains, players need to set goals of what they're after and stay the course, I set goals to get to those milestones to get everything, I'm now at 1150 days and thought it was great when I finally got to get those rewards.

Making everything so easy and trivial to get is wrong, imo.

There is nothing hard with waiting. The game could actually use some good rewards instead of having people logging in for thousands of days to get what they want. Items obtained through gameplay should be the focus of a looter shooter. Easy and trivial is exactly what having them locked behind login is, unless of course the player has a really hard time typing their password. It would be better to have gametime focused around obtainment of appealing items. There is really no goal to set in order to obtain those mods and MR items.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

Remember when the forums were full of complaints how useless the mod is? Good times.

I always say to change the login system and remove MR and stuff like that and put them somewhere else. (Milestones at best, like completing the steel path or something)

Scaling resources and boosters ARE ALREADY ENOUGH of a gesture regarding literally (on console) pressing a button 3 times. There's no need to gate stuff behind actual years of logging in.

Exactly. All progression should be removed from login since it really serves no purpose.

2 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Agreed. I think it is important for people to learn the game more first in general before getting too many of the crutches this game has. 

Those crutches are fun qol for players who already know what they are doing, but by no means should be available too early or too easily. 

For example, I started playing at like the beginning of 2015 if email validation is anything to go by. I have never once slotted primed sure footed. I cannot remember the last time I slotted handspring (I think before I started messing with all the new drift mods upon their release years ago). 

And I cannot remember the last time knock downs or knock backs were any kind of issue for me. 

How exactly does logging in give any experience with the game? A guy playing 2h per day has the same experience after 400 days as someone who plays 1h per day has after 800 days, yet the player who plays 2h per day needs to wait just aslong for an item. Meaning he'll have twice the experience per milestone that effect gameplay as opposed to the other. Then it gets even more silly when you have players that may skip weeks of playing while only logging in to keep the login reward counter rolling.

And only 1 of the mods could be considered a crutch, which is PSF, since the others are straight up normal upgrades, like PFlow, PF and PV. And in all this thinking it is somehow OK that Baro sells similar "crutches" that can be obtained by doing the most trivial content very early on? Yep makes total sense. /s

 

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The login rewards have a purpose fyi...even if you don't agree with it. It's really common for institutions to reward those that become longer term customers. 

It's also really common for people to try the game out and leave if it's not for them. So many games/institutions/businesses say "Hey, thanks for not leaving after 2 weeks and staying here with us. Here's something to show our appreciation."

 

 

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I feel like knockdowns and the like should be eligible to be either evaded, countered or both.

Like rolling out or jumping out, strafing or whatever.

Especially in a twitch shooter based on reaction time it would naturally assume you evade manually based on your manual ability.

Having the player not be able to do anything but just throw your hands in the air over it, like with boss immunity, is more than bad gameplay - it's the lack of.

And is a major part of why I don't see myself ever wasting slots on knockdown immunity no matter what. I refuse to support bad gameplay. 

I'd throw an operator tether in there, dash push them off their feet, use any other type of frame ability or weapon to control them. Currently playing atlas a lot since I use self stagger weapons. But all and any other thing short of spending a mod slot is on the table.

I mean, I'd rather just suck up the knockdowns or even stop playing the game before I slot knockdown resistance lol. That's the last thing I am going to do.

We are invincible to our all damage from our own powers and eachother powers mindlessly spamming up the whole server... then a handful of weapons break the rules of combat.

If we are going to go that route we can start talking about why we don't do friendly-fire damage to team mates. It just doesn't fit in the game, has no positive upside or adds anything to the gameplay.

It's a missed oppertunity way I figure it could actually add more layers to the combat if you had to pay attention and react to more situations.

 

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I remember when they first released PSF everyone was like "man that is primed garbage",

guess we have gone full circle.

I do not see it changing though , best we can hope for is it will be part of the day 200 tribute itself (gonna be a tough choice when it happens i guess).

i do not particularly like the login tribute system myself , but i understand why it exists - to keep bringing players back.

But keeping things behind a 1 year wait period will obviously be something that will put most people off.

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6 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Pumpkin Spice Frappuccinno....Ewwwwwwww

Anyways, back on topic. I've always disliked the the primed mods as log in rewards. Almost everything else can be acquired at a pace determined by the player. I understand the purpose of log in rewards, it get's player to log in daily and gives them something to look forward to. Locking the accusation of mods behind years of log ins just seems a bit excessive though. You can't really earn them, you're just stuck playing the waiting game.  

I was thinking that maybe moving the log in primed mods to MR rewards could be an acceptable solution. You would essentially get tested for access to the mods that would have been beneficial to that test. Prove you don't need PSF to beat a MR test with lots of enemies that knock down/stagger you and you've earned the mod prevents that mechanic. Beat a melee only MR test and you earn Primed Fury. 

MR test rewards might not be the best solution either but, at least you earned the mods and weren't just given them after waiting years. I haven't really put much thought into it after I got what I wanted from log in rewards. 

:crylaugh: Haha yeah they smelled gross too. 

But on topic, yeah I like that idea of putting them behind relevant MR tests, that would be pretty cool -- login rewards, imo, are not a good place to put the one thing (mods) that universally progress you in game (well arcanes too, but on a smaller level). 

I think the earning stances by doing challenges idea got shelved because they felt it would be too much work for each stance, but it wouldn't really be anymore than a couple extra code strokes to just say "hey you get this primed mod after "X" mastery rank test", so your idea would be a simple addition. 

I like the MR tests idea because some of them are at least a few of the actual "skill checks" in game, that require you to at least know some of the basics of parkour or at least trying to move slightly stealthy, etc, to progress further. This would be a quick and dirty way to still make you have some skill, without locking people behind a long, long wait no matter what they do. Whereas if you want to rush it you can make mastery ranks super fast. I've even heard some cases of people who managed to make it to max MR in well under a year entirely F2P and most of the mastery ranks in the teens, which is where anything of note besides MR30 is unlocked, can be rushed very easily by someone with the will to do so without spending money. 

 

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23 hours ago, (PSN)Gentleman_Raven_ said:

I use Handspring all the time, it's pretty essential in my builds. 

Nothing beats getting hit with grappling hooks and as they're dragging you towards them, you're already up and swinging/shooting/generally turning them to red paste.

Except even without Handspring you can still get up before they pull you to them. Movement buttons will let you roll back onto your feet, and you can roll away from them this way to gain distance if you want to shoot them or just stay out of range of their melee. Multiple times I've even rolled toward them, causing me to end up right behind them so their first swing misses and they don't get a second swing.

21 hours ago, Alianee said:

Well at 30-40 min Terrorem Survival on Steel Path, nearly every second/third enemy on the map is a lasher, plus a lot of Eximus units. 
I can stay alive there but its no fun. That's why I do it mostly with Octavia nowadays since I don't have a problem there. But it's frustrating when I try to use my Saryn or Wukong for a spin to spice things up.

By "lasher" do you mean an Ancient? If so, your possible solutions include putting distance between you and them because they're slow, and crowd control. Warframes are excellent at maneuvering, so you shouldn't have any problems getting away if you need to. If your preferred Warframe doesn't have good CC abilities, you can always keep a specter handy using a frame which does. I like to keep Vauban specters handy for this very reason. In your case when you use Wukong, his Cloudwalker can stun enemies, including Ancients. That could give you the time you need to kill them before they can even try grappling you.

My whole point here in response to both of these posts is Handspring and Sure Footed, Primed or otherwise, are not essential mods at all. They can be useful, but we have many other tools at our disposal to deal with the exact same problems. Tools which we can acquire much more easily.

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On 2021-01-13 at 6:47 PM, Slayer-. said:

I disagree, DE has been making Warframe to easy of late, some things should stay the same and not just be added to rewards for some players to abuse the system for personal gains, players need to set goals of what they're after and stay the course, I set goals to get to those milestones to get everything, I'm now at 1150 days and thought it was great when I finally got to get those rewards.

Making everything so easy and trivial to get is wrong, imo.

Wait wait wait... Hang on.... Are you saying logging in for 900 Days is some sort of Challenge ? 🤔

On 2021-01-13 at 8:11 PM, DarthK3v said:

I'm more curious what's knocking you down so often. I don't use Primed/Sure Footed or Hand Spring, and I rarely get knocked down. Melee can block grappling hooks and Arson Eximus flame walls, and enemies who have to run up to you to physically knock you over can be dodged if not killed. Weapons with self-stagger just need a little more forethought.

I don't know about Everyone else but I minimise the amount of Knockdowns I suffer by using Rad Procs to divert some of the Enemy Aggro away from me....

It's not consistent... But statistically speaking it does make some small difference....

On 2021-01-13 at 10:19 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

Agreed. I think it is important for people to learn the game more first in general before getting too many of the crutches this game has. 

That's an Argument for better Tutorials and Interfaces... It's no excuse to leave in something that Annoys people so much.

On 2021-01-13 at 10:23 PM, Alianee said:

That's why I do it mostly with Octavia nowadays since I don't have a problem there.

I'm still holding out hope for an Octavia Rework... 😝...

On 2021-01-13 at 10:23 PM, Alianee said:

 

@Slayer-.: I understand your point with goals, but using "Login" is not really a way to make it harder to get. If you use it as a 5% Chance on Steel Path Ropalolyst or something like that it would be much more of a goal and more of a challenge than "Press login 400 times". 

Exactly !!!

On 2021-01-13 at 11:30 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

Anyways, something like PSF should ideally be earnable based on beating movement based challenges to show you deserve that quality of life and have already learned those basic skills

Even better.... It would be nice if there was slot more content designed around movement... Almost Exclusively.... 

23 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Pumpkin Spice Frappuccinno....Ewwwwwwww

I admit I'm not sold on the Idea either but... Don't knock it till you try it. 😛.

23 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is nothing hard with waiting. The game could actually use some good rewards instead of having people logging in for thousands of days to get what they want. Items obtained through gameplay should be the focus of a looter shooter. Easy and trivial is exactly what having them locked behind login is, unless of course the player has a really hard time typing their password. It would be better to have gametime focused around obtainment of appealing items. There is really no goal to set in order to obtain those mods and MR items.

Exactly. All progression should be removed from login since it really serves no purpose.

How exactly does logging in give any experience with the game? A guy playing 2h per day has the same experience after 400 days as someone who plays 1h per day has after 800 days, yet the player who plays 2h per day needs to wait just aslong for an item. Meaning he'll have twice the experience per milestone that effect gameplay as opposed to the other. Then it gets even more silly when you have players that may skip weeks of playing while only logging in to keep the login reward counter rolling.

And only 1 of the mods could be considered a crutch, which is PSF, since the others are straight up normal upgrades, like PFlow, PF and PV. And in all this thinking it is somehow OK that Baro sells similar "crutches" that can be obtained by doing the most trivial content very early on? Yep makes total sense. /s

 

PREACH !!!!

18 hours ago, Surbusken said:

I feel like knockdowns and the like should be eligible to be either evaded, countered or both.

I like where you are going with this.... Anything that encourages an Active way of Engaging with the game is good.

 

Actually.... I believe this was the original intention behind the Self Stagger change.... Pressing the jump button Halfway through the animation is suppose to allow you to recover in mid air....

 

However the timing is DMC Levels of Strict that I've only managed to pull it off half the time in the Simulacrum...and not even a single time in an actual Mission....

17 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I like the MR tests idea because some of them are at least a few of the actual "skill checks" in game, that require you to at least know some of the basics of parkour or at least trying to move slightly stealthy, etc, to progress further

It would be nice if some if those tests would be repurposed into Actual Missions....

The mobile Interception one might have some potential.... 

Also the Stealth Tests... Provided they Tweak the AI's Perception alil.

2 hours ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

Once a upon a time, Heavy Weapons had knockback and knockdown immunity. Then DE changed that. No idea why.

You could also still use your Melee Weapon whilst still having the Heavy Weapon out ... 

These days it's hard to tell what's suppose to a Feature or a Bug...

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3 hours ago, DarthK3v said:

Except even without Handspring you can still get up before they pull you to them. Movement buttons will let you roll back onto your feet, and you can roll away from them this way to gain distance if you want to shoot them or just stay out of range of their melee. Multiple times I've even rolled toward them, causing me to end up right behind them so their first swing misses and they don't get a second swing.

My whole point here in response to both of these posts is Handspring and Sure Footed, Primed or otherwise, are not essential mods at all. They can be useful, but we have many other tools at our disposal to deal with the exact same problems. Tools which we can acquire much more easily.

I've been on the receiving end of too many lashes that pass through walls or are apparently guided by top-of- the line guidance systems to go without Handspring. Especially at higher level solo Survival, ending up on your back for even a few seconds can ruin your day.

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Is using any of the dozen or so tools already at our disposal and basic awareness of the enemies your fighting so difficult that we need to make upgrades that bypass entire systems even easier to get?

Sorry but I don't think "git gud" has ever been more applicable.

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5 hours ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

Once a upon a time, Heavy Weapons had knockback and knockdown immunity. Then DE changed that. No idea why.

They changed it because they removed self damage and still wanted the explosive weapons/effects to be cumbersome. Good choice? I don't think so...

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1 hour ago, trst said:

Is using any of the dozen or so tools already at our disposal and basic awareness of the enemies your fighting so difficult that we need to make upgrades that bypass entire systems even easier to get?

Yes....

Is that so hard to understand ?

1 hour ago, trst said:

Sorry but I don't think "git gud" has ever been more applicable.

It's always applicable... It's just never Welcome... 

 

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Prime Sure Footed is the biggest QOL one can get in the game with the current mechanics.  

I see people suggesting Handspring. That's like suggesting someone who's hungry to eat empty bread to prevent starving. 

  • Does Handspring stop being knocked down when you aim glide? 
  • Does Handspring help you hitting the damage on Profit Taker right phase when you get knockdown after knockdown? 
  • Does Handspring prevent the extra damage you take while being knockdown? 
  • Does Handspring prevent the stagger of all AOE weapons in the game? 

I can give examples all day. But in the end, Prime Sure Footed is the best QOL mod in the game right now. 

Trash design that is gated after years of login. 

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