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(Consoles) Curious about the state of a particular old bug and whether or not the community cares


(XBOX)Lou the Lou

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Note:  I'm not posting this in the Bug Report forum because it's not a bug report.  It has been reported ad nauseum, thus making further reports moot.  I'm looking for discussion and possibly an answer.

You've been playing a long time.  So long that you remember when "melee attack" was bound to RB/R1.  In fact, that's still how you play.  Me too.  I use RB for melee, Left/Right D-pad for power selection, and Right Stick Click for Activate Selected Power.  It works well for me, because it allows me to, among other things, jump (press A/X) and activate any power simultaneously (Elite controller with paddles).

The problem was first introduced when Cetus was released.  More specifically, when the current menu-style HUD for fishing was implemented.  The game requires that you Hold RB/R1 to select baits.  This translates to other things as well, like attempting to do Son activities on Deimos; the Tranq Rifle functions, again, require the holding of RB/R1 to access those additional functions (lures, baits, etc.).  It's not even possible to get around this by putting everything on your gear wheel, because baits cannot be added to the gear wheel and must be used through the specific UI functionality (but, being able to would add its own set of headaches, which could be relieved with gear wheel loadouts, but that's a different topic).

The issue is that with the old control setup, that is impossible.  Pressing RB/R1 is Melee Attack, so pressing it causes me to whip out my melee weapon and attack.  I cannot access those functions unless I go into options change my RB/R1 to Ability Menu.  Then I can go hunting or whatever.  And when I'm done, I switch back, because I'm not interested in fighting years of muscle memory.

So.  Couple questions:  one, is this bug even on the list?  It's been around forever, so I figure it's not or it would have been fixed by now.  Yeah, there's a workaround, but it is a huge pain.  Two, does it bother anyone else as much as it bothers me?

Possible fix: allow the HUD menu functions to be accessed by holding Ability Menu or Interact.  Or give us a whole separate variable to set that functions alongside its normal control.  For example, having no free controller mapping to use, I'd set it to LB/L1, which is my Crouch.  Having my frame crouch whenever I access those unique, open-world functions would be fine by me.

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I’m not even sure I would call that “bug” as much as a lack of functionality. Those actions are performed through the ability menu button. If you unbind that button, then it simply won’t work.

I think the problem is the game’s controls are just way too complex and obviously not designed with controllers in mind. Could a solution be found? Sure, but I think that’s a headache that whatever handful of people are on that team just don’t want to deal with.

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31 minutes ago, (XBOX)Lou the Lou said:

Note:  I'm not posting this in the Bug Report forum because it's not a bug report.  It has been reported ad nauseum, thus making further reports moot.  I'm looking for discussion and possibly an answer.

You've been playing a long time.  So long that you remember when "melee attack" was bound to RB/R1.  In fact, that's still how you play.  Me too.  I use RB for melee, Left/Right D-pad for power selection, and Right Stick Click for Activate Selected Power.  It works well for me, because it allows me to, among other things, jump (press A/X) and activate any power simultaneously (Elite controller with paddles).

The problem was first introduced when Cetus was released.  More specifically, when the current menu-style HUD for fishing was implemented.  The game requires that you Hold RB/R1 to select baits.  This translates to other things as well, like attempting to do Son activities on Deimos; the Tranq Rifle functions, again, require the holding of RB/R1 to access those additional functions (lures, baits, etc.).  It's not even possible to get around this by putting everything on your gear wheel, because baits cannot be added to the gear wheel and must be used through the specific UI functionality (but, being able to would add its own set of headaches, which could be relieved with gear wheel loadouts, but that's a different topic).

The issue is that with the old control setup, that is impossible.  Pressing RB/R1 is Melee Attack, so pressing it causes me to whip out my melee weapon and attack.  I cannot access those functions unless I go into options change my RB/R1 to Ability Menu.  Then I can go hunting or whatever.  And when I'm done, I switch back, because I'm not interested in fighting years of muscle memory.

So.  Couple questions:  one, is this bug even on the list?  It's been around forever, so I figure it's not or it would have been fixed by now.  Yeah, there's a workaround, but it is a huge pain.  Two, does it bother anyone else as much as it bothers me?

Possible fix: allow the HUD menu functions to be accessed by holding Ability Menu or Interact.  Or give us a whole separate variable to set that functions alongside its normal control.  For example, having no free controller mapping to use, I'd set it to LB/L1, which is my Crouch.  Having my frame crouch whenever I access those unique, open-world functions would be fine by me.

Thats not a bug at all. Its a button assignment issue created by the player themselves.

Put simply, you've assigned a button that usually has no (Hold) function, to an action that does have a (Hold) function. That can't work. You could ask the devs if they could look into an option for players to re-map "states", such as when you have a spear or mining laser equiped, so that you can re-map the state yourself, but it still couldn't be considered a bug. Its like assigning your light switch to both turn on and off in both directions simultaneously. 

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14 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Thats not a bug at all. Its a button assignment issue created by the player themselves.

That it tells me to press RB to access the menu, and pressing RB causes me to melee, thereby removing access to the menu, is a bug, because a bug is simply program behavior that is not intended.  The fact that I can create that conflict at all is, itself, the bug.  If the player can break the intended functionality like that, it's a bug.  Bugs aren't always "glitches" or crashes.

Also, I didn't set that.  As I explained, my RB has alwaybeen Melee Attack.  DE is the one that changed things, then continued to allow players to set RB to Melee Attack - which, to be unmistakably clear, I would not want changed.  I'd rather deal with the current problem forever than be unable to use RB for melee.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)Lou the Lou said:

You've been playing a long time. 

I actually haven't... 😮

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Lou the Lou said:

So long that you remember when "melee attack" was bound to RB/R1

This is news to me !!! 😮

That being said I do remember having difficulty adjusting to the Controls back when Melee 2.5 came out.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Lou the Lou said:

Two, does it bother anyone else as much as it bothers me?

Considering that veterans stop playing eventually then yeah... You might be one of only a few players this bothers....

Which sucks because when I think about it RB actually is a better binding for melee than regular old "B" is.... 

 

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2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Which sucks because when I think about it RB actually is a better binding for melee than regular old "B" is.... 

Right?  There really aren't enough buttons on a controller to handle everything, but what I have is good enough for everyday play - except when I go to do those open-world activities, because my chosen control scheme breaks them.

I did try changing my controls, though, to acclimate.  I put melee on RS (not as bad as one might think, honestly), and made RB Ability Menu so I could fish and whatnot - but it didn't take.  Kept pushing the wrong buttons.  Besides, I like my control scheme.  My right index does all my attacking.  Right thumb does the power selecting and casting.  My Elite controller means all ABXY presses are handled by paddles.  When I changed RB to the ability menu, I found it interfering with my button presses, causing me to accidentally use the A power when I wanted to jump and use the X power, for example.  Or when I wanted to jump at the beginning of a Gauss charge.

Hey, I just had an idea.  Since that activity HUD completely replaces the combat powers HUD, why not allow the L/R Power Selection and Activate Selected Power functions to work on that interface?  Let us L/R select the lures and baits categories, then press to Activate the selected panel as the button presses do now.

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15 hours ago, (XBOX)Lou the Lou said:

I did try changing my controls, though, to acclimate.  I put melee on RS (not as bad as one might think, honestly), and made RB Ability Menu so I could fish and whatnot - but it didn't take.  Kept pushing the wrong buttons.

I tried that melee on RS once. Can't remember why. It works better than it has any right to. Still feels weird though. Had the same problem and it really didn't seem worth the effort. Friad I have nothing useful to add. I was just so surprised to see someone else mention trying RS melee I had to respond.

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21 hours ago, (XBOX)Lou the Lou said:

That it tells me to press RB to access the menu, and pressing RB causes me to melee, thereby removing access to the menu, is a bug, because a bug is simply program behavior that is not intended.  The fact that I can create that conflict at all is, itself, the bug.  If the player can break the intended functionality like that, it's a bug.  Bugs aren't always "glitches" or crashes.

Also, I didn't set that.  As I explained, my RB has alwaybeen Melee Attack.  DE is the one that changed things, then continued to allow players to set RB to Melee Attack - which, to be unmistakably clear, I would not want changed.  I'd rather deal with the current problem forever than be unable to use RB for melee.

The first part was already covered by the Light Switch example, still absolutely cannot be considered a bug, as it falls under the category of "educated choice". You're aware the button is needed for something else.

The second part is incredible really. Maybe you worded it incorrectly but you basically just claimed this is DE's fault for giving players the option to reassign buttons after melee 2.5. Usually praised in games as a QOL Improvement.

Unless you're trying to claim that your Catalogue of games comprises of only 1, being Warframe, because you're unable to acclimate to any other type of control scheme, then not only is it not a bug, its also not a real problem either. This "issue" is entirely up to you and your preference. I'm never going to tell anyone "its wrong to prefer X Y or Z", but thats not this situation. You're not stupid, you know the button is needed for something else, yet you still think your Choice is a "bug". If you could Map all actions to one button yourself, thats a bug. When a game Tells You (Button X) is needed for (Action Y) and you set (Button X) as something else knowing the aforementioned fact, its a choice. Im not sure how that could be more clear.

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3 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

/clip

I love that you're coming back here to argue the semantics of this situation, but it's pointless for a couple reasons.  One, it doesn't affect the problem in any way.  Two, I'm right.  According to what I learned to earn my BS in Computer Information Systems, a bug is unanticipated program behavior.  Had they anticipated this issue, it shouldn't exist.  If RB is integral to progression (which it is; you cannot, for example, advance through the Deimos factions without doing those extra activities), then the player being able to unknowingly remove that functionality is a bug.  Or more directly, the fact that the game does not respond to the rebinding of RB, and continues to prompt the player to push RB to open the menu when RB will not open the menu due to the rebinding, is a bug.

"You're not stupid, you know the button is needed for something else."  No.  I didn't.  When I first went fishing, I couldn't figure out why I couldn't do it, why the game was prompting me to push RB to open the menu then not allowing me to do so.  I had to go searching on reddit to discover the problem and workaround.

Now.  It doesn't matter.  If you don't want to call it a bug, fine.  I'm going to continue to do so, because that's what it is.

P.S.  Even completely disabling other functions (like melee) on RB while those tools are in use would be an acceptable fix.

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Cant even imagine playing this game using a controller..my mouse alone has half the keybinds of a controller, and I still use a hefty chunk of keyboard, bound to other actions..

 

So yea, sounds like an issue if you cant bind fishing/mining to another input. 

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)Lou the Lou said:

I love that you're coming back here to argue the semantics of this situation, but it's pointless for a couple reasons.  One, it doesn't affect the problem in any way.  Two, I'm right.  According to what I learned to earn my BS in Computer Information Systems, a bug is unanticipated program behavior.  Had they anticipated this issue, it shouldn't exist.  If RB is integral to progression (which it is; you cannot, for example, advance through the Deimos factions without doing those extra activities), then the player being able to unknowingly remove that functionality is a bug.  Or more directly, the fact that the game does not respond to the rebinding of RB, and continues to prompt the player to push RB to open the menu when RB will not open the menu due to the rebinding, is a bug.

"You're not stupid, you know the button is needed for something else."  No.  I didn't.  When I first went fishing, I couldn't figure out why I couldn't do it, why the game was prompting me to push RB to open the menu then not allowing me to do so.  I had to go searching on reddit to discover the problem and workaround.

Now.  It doesn't matter.  If you don't want to call it a bug, fine.  I'm going to continue to do so, because that's what it is.

P.S.  Even completely disabling other functions (like melee) on RB while those tools are in use would be an acceptable fix.

You replied. It shows up in my alerts. I wasn't "coming back" like it was any effort and i'm certainly not arguing semantics no matter how much you wish it were true. Simply pointing out that you've somehow confused a personal choice with a bug.

A bug is unintended, the Button you're complaining about is fully, truly, 100%, absolutely intended to be for Bait when fishing. The only one who changed anything, thus causing an issue, is you. As for your "BS in Computer Information Systems", the only BS i saw in the reply above is claiming you didn't know why the issue was happening. It literally spells out the buttons on the bottom-right of the screen. You didn't miss that. And you didn't suddenly forget what button Attack was.

Railjack absolutely destroys any morsel of an argument here anyway  As does Operator. By your logic, any other "state" in the game outside of the default Warframe one that has even 1 differing control to what you're comfortable with, you must also consider bugged. Unless theres a double-standard suddenly arising here.

P.S. The above P.S. is a really bad idea. Most fishing spots are patrolled by gradually respawning enemies. We like being able to put them down mid-fishing without having to jump into menues thanks.

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2 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Railjack absolutely destroys any morsel of an argument here anyway  As does Operator. By your logic, any other "state" in the game outside of the default Warframe one that has even 1 differing control to what you're comfortable with, you must also consider bugged. Unless theres a double-standard suddenly arising here.

P.S. The above P.S. is a really bad idea. Most fishing spots are patrolled by gradually respawning enemies. We like being able to put them down mid-fishing without having to jump into menues thanks.

Operator works fine, thanks.  And if Railjack functions suffer from the same bug, then the same fix can be applied.  Simply make RB function exclusively for that tool's/the Railjack's menu while that tool/the Railjack is in use and ignore all other functions, then restore user bindings when exiting that mode.  Simple.

It's a totally viable fix.  How would temporarily disabling other RB functions mess with your ability to fight?  You are not using RB for melee.  I am, and I am fine with my suggested fixes.  I would be totally fine with losing melee while I have my tranq rifle out.  If I want to fight, all I have to do is press Switch Weapon.

Which brings up a point that makes your latest argument moot: melee is not the only way to exit the tool mode - and it doesn't even properly exit it.  When you're using a tool, then Melee, then Aim, it brings up the tool again.  Because it's still in use.  To actually switch off the tool, you have to switch weapons or Use the tool again in your gear wheel.  So your point is... wrong.

To be clear, I know why it's happening.  Because DE decided they wanted to move the melee button off their original mapping, and not make accommodations for people who want to keep that original binding.

And yeah.  I'd like to go fishing/hunting/etc. without having to gong into my options and change my control scheme every time - unlike something stupidly simple and easy like accessing your gear wheel for literally one second, which I have no problem doing regularly on missions.  And I'm not the only one who has experienced this.  If I was, I never would have found the reason or workaround, which other people posted on reddit a long time ago.

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I've been playing warframe since release with RB as melee and this only became an issue/bug whatever you want to call it because DE went out of their way to change things for themselves thinking players wanted this change. Had they left it to where gear wheels could hold the fishing items then we wouldn't have this issue. 

Before the change I used to fish and hunt a decent amount. After this pointless change I haven't bothered with the mechanic because I have to change my way of playing that never needed changing and wasn't given a solution other than don't use RB as it was originally designed. 

Simply put, let us gear wheel fishing and hunting items like we used to and this problem will go away for players who still use RB as melee. We shouldn't have to suffer because DE broke something that never needed fixing as is common with warframe in the last 3 years.

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Alright well I’m not gonna be a jerk, because look what good that’s done so far.

What I’ll say is, if the UI is telling you that pressing a certain button will perform a certain action, and it does not, that is certainly a bug, albeit a relatively minor one in this case.

However I don’t think that’s really the problem here. It seems like you already know what the problem is, that you don’t have “ability menu” bound to anything. And the simple truth is that this function is how DE intends for players to access the bait/lure menus. The fact that you can’t do it some other way isn’t a bug, it’s just the way DE designed it.

Now I’m not trying to argue semantics with you just to feed my superiority complex. The reason why I point that out is if you are reporting it as a bug, it’s probably going to get ignored. Whoever combs through the bug report forums and compiles issues to take to the devs is gonna either ignore it, or if it does make it to a dev, they are gonna probably say “well that’s not a bug, that’s not what I’m here for. nothing i can do.”

However, even if you bring this up in the feedback section, that doesn’t mean it’s going to get fixed. Trust me, I know your pain on this. I have delt with my own problems of my preferred button assignments simply not working for one reason or another. Mapping Warframe’s ridiculously overcomplicated controls to a controller is a difficult task, and DE has struggled with figuring it out multiple times. One small change can have unintended consequences. And for something like this, it’s a case of “do we go out of our way trying to fix it for a handful of people, and risk breaking something for a whole lot of people?” I would wager the answer to that question is no. It’s probably something they have to put through a cert build, and if it breaks something, DE has to turn around and pay for another cert build to fix it, or just wait until the next update two months later, during which time an immense amount of players may simply have non functioning controls. It’s high risk, low reward.

I’m not trying to discourage you from continuing to seek a solution to your problem. If you feel it needs to change, then by all means continue to pursue it. But I’m just trying to give you some perspective. It’s not a case of a bug that DE just hasn’t bothered to fix for 3 years. It’s a difficult problem regarding customizability of controls, and that’s a can of worms I think DE tries to open as infrequently as possible.

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18 hours ago, (XBOX)Lou the Lou said:

Operator works fine, thanks.  And if Railjack functions suffer from the same bug, then the same fix can be applied.  Simply make RB function exclusively for that tool's/the Railjack's menu while that tool/the Railjack is in use and ignore all other functions, then restore user bindings when exiting that mode.  Simple.

It's a totally viable fix.  How would temporarily disabling other RB functions mess with your ability to fight?  You are not using RB for melee.  I am, and I am fine with my suggested fixes.  I would be totally fine with losing melee while I have my tranq rifle out.  If I want to fight, all I have to do is press Switch Weapon.

Which brings up a point that makes your latest argument moot: melee is not the only way to exit the tool mode - and it doesn't even properly exit it.  When you're using a tool, then Melee, then Aim, it brings up the tool again.  Because it's still in use.  To actually switch off the tool, you have to switch weapons or Use the tool again in your gear wheel.  So your point is... wrong.

To be clear, I know why it's happening.  Because DE decided they wanted to move the melee button off their original mapping, and not make accommodations for people who want to keep that original binding.

And yeah.  I'd like to go fishing/hunting/etc. without having to gong into my options and change my control scheme every time - unlike something stupidly simple and easy like accessing your gear wheel for literally one second, which I have no problem doing regularly on missions.  And I'm not the only one who has experienced this.  If I was, I never would have found the reason or workaround, which other people posted on reddit a long time ago.

Yeah, i stopped reading when you strangely decided to try to use the QoL Improvement of Melee not forcing you to have to jump through menu hoops to re-equip mining lasers and tranq guns as a weird way to try to prove me wrong, about (not) mining lasers or tranq guns. Its like you forgot what your point was supposed to be :facepalm:

Anyway, nothing provided so far even comes close to distinguishing what you were (supposed to be) complaining about, as a bug. Multiple posts and i think you've accidentally proven it otherwise. As a choice. If the game tells you an eggs an egg, and literally spells out the letters E G & G, its an egg. Nobody can help someone who decides to see  it as a Banana instead. My first reply mentioned an actual logical solution to your fake bug, until you accept that then i'm sorry, but you're very very wrong.

Have a good day :thumbup:

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