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Blocking players up to 10 secs for using skills they love to use?

is that the new way bringing fun to warframe?

this is against the fast-paced action game philosophy.

serious answers please. 

 

if yes when do we get the general overahaul for all warframe skills indroducing cooldowns for all warframes?

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They can't balance (nerf) Energize as they'd want, so they try to find workarounds. Yeah, CDs are absolutely no fun, Warframe is at its best when you can spam things with a little of management.

But look, seems like they're slowly going back to "the good old days" where there was Stamina (Necramech) and Cooldowns everywhere (Lavos). Soon we'll have a change in the bullet jump probably.

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If this is about Lavos, I personally found the cooldown mechanic to be refreshing.

However dont loose your mind over it. When the made Inaros with zero sheild, they didnt start making every warframe with no sheild. Its just a gimmic for the warframe to make it different.

 

If this is about Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, the mechanic is just designed to circumvent those top 5 nukers that spam abilities. If you manage your abilities though its fine.

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I think the mana system is as flawed as it was back in Diablo. Why games still use it I’ll never understand.

I get you like this easily bypassed system, but this easily bypassed system is impossible to balance.

Well not quite. We have 2 ways to make things somewhat challenging.

-No cooldowns nerfed skills.

- A vast array of skills of all power levels balanced by time you can’t use them.

 Its that or we sit in this broken game till it dies from lack of challenge.

I think DE needs to pull the trigger and add CDs across the board or just tell us they gave up on offering any kind of challenge. 

Edited by BDMblue
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If you talk about Lavos: it's one damn frame out of over 40 others. Don't like it, don't use it. 

If you talk about ESO: it's one damn game mode out of almost a dozen. Don't like it, don't play it. 

If you also hate necramechs: it's one damn event out of dozens of events. Don't like it, don't play it. 

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3 minutes ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

If you talk about Lavos: it's one damn frame out of over 40 others. Don't like it, don't use it. 

I think his point is if it becomes a trend - new frames come like this and old ones are reworked to work this way(the worse case scenario).

I really hope this never happens, Lavos is terrible to play imo.

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There's a lot of fast-paced 'Anime' games that feature cooldowns. Those that don't usually feature far harsher systems - either limited-use items or a mana system far harder to bypass than Warframes, ones that usually require constant upkeep. Most will have some or most of their core moveset be freely available, but have individual elements be tied to cooldowns.

 

This is because for a game to be fast-paced, it usually requires that the player constantly need to be doing something, or have the potential to be doing something. If a player can smack a button, and then sit still for 20 seconds, then that's 20 seconds of downtime. That's 20 seconds of slow-paced gameplay, no matter how fast you move.

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Just now, BDMblue said:

I think the mana system is as flawed as it was back in Diablo. Why games still use it I’ll never understand.

I get you like this easily bypassed system, but this easily bypassed system is impossible to balance. Well not quite.

we have 2 ways to make things somewhat challenging. No cooldowns nerfed skills, or a vast array of skills of all power levels balanced by time you can’t use them. Its that or we sit in this broken game till it dies from lack of challenge.

I think DE needs to pull the trigger and add CDs across the board or just tell us they gave up on offering any kind of challenge. 

Adding cd on all abilities would be a fatal mistake imo. I'd just stop logging in at least. It wouldn't be the same game anymore.

I tried to play Lavos, threw 4 forma on him and spent a few hours testing. I find him to have a terribly boring play style and it's just annoying when nothing happens on ability cast. He's Grendel and Inaros level of trash imo. 

I've always liked casters though, probably why I loved Diablo 2 so much. I prefer a glass cannon caster that can spam abilities over a tank or cooldown heavy character. The high risk high rewards active play style where mistakes have consequences is just more enjoyable to me. 

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god-forbid you have a timer/cooldown system in ESO which is 1% of the game content or on lavos who is 1 out of 44 warframes and its end of the world, seriously...
 

Edited by ReddyDisco
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lavos cooldowns aren't even that bad 😂 his 2 has a cooldown of like 2 seconds which you can use to say adios if enemies are overwhelming you

you can boost his efficiency so his 3 reduces the cooldowns quicker but i said meh to that, threw on blind rage and just used these things called weapons to kill my viral proc'd enemies whilst my 4 cools down

i wouldn't be mad if we got another cooldown frame in the future 

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17 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Adding cd on all abilities would be a fatal mistake imo. I'd just stop logging in at least. It wouldn't be the same game anymore.

Don't worry. If DE ever did that, they would surely also make a new, boring/dumb game mode where you can get a new primed mod called "game mechanic remover" which at max rank removes 100% cooldowns. Then people can get back to doing what they were doing before.

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Lets be honest. Warframe has some major problems with balancing and user engagement and dealing with those problems is a game in of itself and a challenging one at that. Cooldowns were just another means of trying a new form of balancing, much like Barruuk ' Paci-FIST ' Desert Wind (I forgot the name of the ability) meter or Embers' overheat bar.

 

4 hours ago, genuvine said:

this is against the fast-paced action game philosophy.

I have to disagree. Warframe isn't just about using abilities and let us not forget Warframe is... well, was also considered a stealth game and I mean loosely.

 

4 hours ago, genuvine said:

if yes when do we get the general overahaul for all warframe skills indroducing cooldowns for all warframes?

To be honest and overhaul to most if not all abilities will be a blessing, perhaps adding a couple cooldowns here and there along with a few ability charges could help bring up the teamplay and co-operative aspect of the game that the developers want. everyone is essentially a 1-Man army fighting against their allies for kills. 

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I'd say (for a recent example) Risk of Rain 2 proves quite definitively that cooldowns don't prevent a game from being fast paced, as once you get far enough in a run, that game outstrips Warframe in both movement speed, expected engagement times and enemy kills per second.

What they do is force you to actually think about what you want to cast when, as opposed to just spamming everything with no downsides beyond a resource that is either trivial or agonising to replenish, depending on your progression level.

Restrictions are what make choices meaningful. If you always have access to the nuke button, you're never going to use anything else outside of a conscious decision to break the monotony. But if using the nuke means you won't be able to do so again for a while, you're going to be thinking about whether casting it at a given moment is truly the best option.

Besides, it's not as if abilities are the only thing that make this game fast-paced. Even when all 4 of your powers are on cooldown, you still have access to both the movement system and all of your other means of attacking. If anything, not having the nuke button on call 24/7 actually speeds up the game's pace, as you have to be active in the meantime (as opposed to the current system, where you can often cast one power and then alt-tab until its effects end).

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Answering based on the two major instances of ability cooldowns that currently exist in-game:

Elite Sanctuary Onslaught was an attempt by the developers to design a game mode that would challenge veteran players, and one of the ways that was implemented was through forced cooldowns if the player spams abilities, as ability spam is a major reason why we're overpowered. This feature has been widely criticized by the community as anti-fun, but also ineffective, especially given that the strongest frame for that mode, Saryn, doesn't need to use abilities all that frequently to constantly clear the arena.

Lavos is an experimental frame designed with the express purpose of testing the viability of cooldowns on warframes. Again, the intent is likely to address our ability spam, though the result once again seems to be a failure, as Lavos's cooldowns don't mesh with the pace of our play. The frame himself is generally clunky, and seemingly too reliant on his own internal mechanics to do all that well outside of solo play, in part because enemies die too quickly for him to be able to refresh his cooldowns with his 3.

So, effectively, DE experimented twice with ability cooldowns in very isolated instances, and in both cases the mechanic was near-universally poorly received. As such, I don't think we're getting any more ability cooldowns on our frames anytime soon.

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Lavos' kit is just another of DE's experiments to see if there's a way to balance power spam.

- Hildryn uses shields as energy, DE were probably hoping that enemies who can deal high damage would reign in Hildryn's power.. but not really.

- Baruuk has his Restraint Meter, which does kind of work IMO: you can either periodically tap into short bursts of his ult, or work on removing all his Restraint and then keep his 4 active for maximum lethality vs large groups. problem is that the restraint theme wouldn't make sense on any other frame (and I want Baruuk's Leverian, to see how a pacifist Tenno even becomes a thing)

- Ember has the overheat meter, but all that does is ask you to spam her 3 more than anything. IMO if you're not keeping an eye on your meter and using fire blast to reduce it - and also help your team with armor stripping - then you kind of deserve to lose your energy lol.

DE want to find a way to keep power spam under control, but none of these ways really work as effectively as they want. as a result, they've tried a more hardline approach with Lavos and his cooldowns. I don't think this appears to have worked either, so now it's back to the drawing board. IMO the only system that *could* potentially work without restricting players too much, is a system of diminishing returns, where spamming the same power on the same enemies over and over makes it less effective (but it still always does something so as not to be useless).

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5 hours ago, genuvine said:

Blocking players up to 10 secs for using skills they love to use?

is that the new way bringing fun to warframe?

this is against the fast-paced action game philosophy.

serious answers please. 

 

if yes when do we get the general overahaul for all warframe skills indroducing cooldowns for all warframes?

???

What aspect are you even talking about?

Cooldowns do absolutely nothing in the pace of a video-game. If you are talking about Lavos, this is literally ONE warframe out of 44 that does not require any kind of energy system.

Get a grip on yourself. If you don't like cooldowns go play a different warframe. Not every single warframe has to be to your liking. There are already a S#&$load of spam-warframes, and you are singling this one out? REALLY???

Edited by Aadi880
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3 hours ago, BDMblue said:

I think the mana system is as flawed as it was back in Diablo. Why games still use it I’ll never understand.

I get you like this easily bypassed system, but this easily bypassed system is impossible to balance.

Well not quite. We have 2 ways to make things somewhat challenging.

-No cooldowns nerfed skills.

- A vast array of skills of all power levels balanced by time you can’t use them.

 Its that or we sit in this broken game till it dies from lack of challenge.

I think DE needs to pull the trigger and add CDs across the board or just tell us they gave up on offering any kind of challenge. 

If you're not aware, some actual players themselves are trying to remove any resistance against them playing by trying to get rid of energy eximus.

Sometimes it's not DE, but the players that would rather lower the bar. 

Some players will also flat out admit they don't want a challenge, they want "fun". 

Also, "challenge" and "balance" are buzzwords that mean different things to different people.

So no, DE doesn't have to pull any triggers, and there aren't 2 ways to make things somewhat challenging.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

Lavos' kit is just another of DE's experiments to see if there's a way to balance power spam.

Sadly DE arent very comfortable with making CD's, nor do they have the right backend setup to really make it work. It doesnt work to just go "hmmm lets put this number there and then this other number here". If DE wanted the system to actually work like in other games and not just "work" they'd have to come up with a new creation process with boundries like we see in all RPG's from pen and paper to MMOs. It will never work if they have an open ended design philosophy witohut a system in place that restricts and balances the design. There must be a proper "item budget" for everything, there must be a system that says that if a skill has a certain CD time, a proc and some special mechanic the damage or defense benefit of it ends up at a certain value. This should in reality already have been a thing with energy cost but it seems so far that it isnt the case.

Which is why we have S#&$ for balance, with a few frames running around unrestricted while being invulnerable and others are forced into a static mode or snail pace when they use the same option. This is also why we have frames that can reach 850 health and others that can reach 9000+ health. And when things are like that, I'd dread the moment DE gets the idea to implement CD's for all frames, because they will have no regulations and it will be more on-the-fly mess.

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If they make cds more flexible, like affected by efficiency and more actions than a single ability (in Lavos' case, his 3td) we could be looking at a better system alltogether.

Because as of now, for any seasoned player the energy system might not exist at all.

E.G. my Saryn has 45% efficiency, no flow and I spam to hell and back. This is to ilustrate that the energy system is no longer even a matter of modding when you have arcanes, operator and such.

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2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

If you're not aware, some actual players themselves are trying to remove any resistance against them playing by trying to get rid of energy eximus.

Parasitic eximus are most definitely not fun, but that doesn't mean I'd like then removed. Just give them a visible aura/effect like literally every other eximus has so I can at least know my energy is being drained.

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1 minute ago, Zeddypanda said:

Parasitic eximus are most definitely not fun, but that doesn't mean I'd like then removed. Just give them a visible aura/effect like literally every other eximus has so I can at least know my energy is being drained.

Oh yea that's reasonable. 

In the meantime, though, I just use my eyes and look at my energy bar lol. That along with observing the battlefield and seeing a group of enemies whether via sight or on the radar helps. 

I have a feeling they're gonna eventually do something about it because it's been highly requested the past year.

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8 hours ago, Corvid said:

I'd say (for a recent example) Risk of Rain 2 proves quite definitively that cooldowns don't prevent a game from being fast paced, as once you get far enough in a run, that game outstrips Warframe in both movement speed, expected engagement times and enemy kills per second.

What they do is force you to actually think about what you want to cast when, as opposed to just spamming everything with no downsides beyond a resource that is either trivial or agonising to replenish, depending on your progression level.

Restrictions are what make choices meaningful. If you always have access to the nuke button, you're never going to use anything else outside of a conscious decision to break the monotony. But if using the nuke means you won't be able to do so again for a while, you're going to be thinking about whether casting it at a given moment is truly the best option.

Besides, it's not as if abilities are the only thing that make this game fast-paced. Even when all 4 of your powers are on cooldown, you still have access to both the movement system and all of your other means of attacking. If anything, not having the nuke button on call 24/7 actually speeds up the game's pace, as you have to be active in the meantime (as opposed to the current system, where you can often cast one power and then alt-tab until its effects end).

I think it all really depends on how the game deals with the energy system. Warframe seems to have two extremes, you either never run out of energy or you keep running out because enemies with energy-drain are around.

I think DE needs to regulate the system to be less based on random-chance and based more on passive regen or something, kind of like Archwings. I would at least want DE to test it out on a single Warframe to see if it would work.

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