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Why skill cooldowns?


genuvine

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13 hours ago, genuvine said:

Blocking players up to 10 secs for using skills they love to use?

is that the new way bringing fun to warframe?

this is against the fast-paced action game philosophy.

serious answers please. 

...

13 hours ago, genuvine said:

if yes when do we get the general overahaul for all warframe skills indroducing cooldowns for all warframes?

Try asking serious questions maybe.

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11 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

I think his point is if it becomes a trend - new frames come like this and old ones are reworked to work this way(the worse case scenario).

I really hope this never happens, Lavos is terrible to play imo.

Then I think he's missing the point of Lavos. It's the 44th completely different warframe. Warframe is a widely diverse and immersive game that will please, and piss off, a catered taste. It's okay to not like the cooldown of Lavos. Who knows, Wraithe may come with a rage meter!

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Actually hilarious seeing people lose it because they can't mindlessly spam abilities, pretend that spamming is the heart of the game and such...

CDs could be a great way to rear our power back to a managable and balancable level. Just add an energy cost to Lavos and CDs to all other warframes. There, now people have to actually use their brain once in a blue moon. And we'd still be overwhelmingly too strong for our own good even with that.

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We have had cooldown in the game since certain powers could not be recast until the other one was done. It has been here since the Void Demons have be released into the game....but most players do not see it or realize it is there (for a time, DE even had a 3 second timer on the screen to show the cooldown for Void Demon release).

The thing about Warframe that I do enjoy is how almost every Frame, Power, weapon breaks a rule of video gaming. This is the aspect of games such as Card Games and Video Games I find a good road to walk. We start out with plain weapons and minor cooldown in Warframe that is started with Energy Pool cooldown. Recall when we first step into out frame during Vors Prize. We have Unlimited use of powers depending on which Frame you choose. Hek, even here we have cooldowns in the form of Animations that have to play out.

As the game went forward, DE has hidden cooldowns among many of the aspects of the game and at time, removed them as well. Guns mainly have cooldowns in reload actions. If we get Reactant power on Primary/Secondary, we get to see what our guns would be like with unlimited ammo (cooldown) and it can be fun. Being told that you have a cooldown and having it hidden in things that are "part of the game" is the magic trick that companies are doing to players constantly. We are used to it in certain areas as norm but when it is put right in our face (ESO, Lavos), some players feel that the freedom they have had is being stripped away. 

Keep playing your video games and if COOLDOWN islands/Drough/ whatever new word the haters are gonna use to find this as the latest thing to complain over and make the community start spitting it as Holy.....look for it in all the games you play or things you do, even in real life. Cuz doing anything without cooldown will eventually destroy a thing. And we do not want that to happen....do we?

Cheers

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2 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Actually hilarious seeing people lose it because they can't mindlessly spam abilities, pretend that spamming is the heart of the game and such...

CDs could be a great way to rear our power back to a managable and balancable level. Just add an energy cost to Lavos and CDs to all other warframes. There, now people have to actually use their brain once in a blue moon. And we'd still be overwhelmingly too strong for our own good even with that.

I think it is less about the idea of a CD system and more about the idea of a horribly implemented CD system, which is the case of Lavos. CDs could indeed be a great way to limit our power, but the way Lavos is made is not the way to do it, since it is the worst CD based system I've ever experienced. It is backwards in so many ways, from skill placement for an actual player friendly rotation to the very odd spread of CD values which further works against actual rotations, which tend to be the core of CD based systems.

A proper system would have something like #1 3sec CD, #2 5sec CD, #3 10sec CD and #4 30sec CD. That would allow for a natural rotation pleasing muscle memory and so on. One and two should also preferably have impacted the CD of skill 3, so you are encouraged to use them regularly, which in turn makes them sync with 4 since the more often you can use 3, the more often you can use 4.

And I gotta ask, what is so bad with spamming abilities? I get the negative part when we talk about massive AoE frames, but I have no idea what is bad about being able to spam "normal" skills in a kit as a replacement to using guns and melee. I find it far more fun using 1-4 actively than spamming E or holding down LMB ad infini.

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Imo his major problem is his transmutation drone.

My entire kit relies on this thing hitting as many enemies as possible, but most of the time my team mates will target the same large group of enemies as I do.

This encourages splitting off from your team to cast your abilities more often, or just playing solo entirely.

 

Also none of the other abilities feel original either, press ability to deal some damage is on infront of you is on a lot of early frames, press ability to damage dash forward is also on multiple frames.

Damage imbuing is fun at first, but gets tedious fast and there's the easy mode alternative of using reactive storm if you want to match your damage output to your enemies.

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14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

And I gotta ask, what is so bad with spamming abilities? I get the negative part when we talk about massive AoE frames, but I have no idea what is bad about being able to spam "normal" skills in a kit as a replacement to using guns and melee. I find it far more fun using 1-4 actively than spamming E or holding down LMB ad infini.

It kind of depends on what you mean by a 'normal' skill. Like, is Invisibility a 'normal' ability?

There's a lot of powers that aren't immediately and clearly overpowered, like a 20 metre radius nuke or a permanent time stop. But in any setting where you don't have something to defend, invisibility is still pretty busted. It's not like enemies mean all that much if you can interact with them, but they can't with you. Powers like fireball, too - their closest equivilent would be something like a grenade in Halo or DOOM. But Grenades typically get fewer uses than their gun counterparts, even in games with larger swathes of enemies - either being rare-ish pickups or on a cooldown.

It comes down to a question: what's Warframe's actual core loop? Halo has its triad - guns, grenades and melee. DOOM Eternal has its resource management (health, armour, ammo). Half-life has 'Run, Think, Shoot, Live' where major combat encounters are set up almost more like small puzzles. Titanfall 2 has a short TTK to reward good movement and positioning, hero shooters like TF2 or Overwatch divvy out parts of its loop into individual characters, and most non-shooters will have their own distinct takes on the matter (Devil May Cry putting much of its loop onto the enemies themselves) Warframe has... well, what does it have? Arguably, you could say it has a triad too - powers, melee, guns. But you're usually only encouraged to use one at a time, rather than each having an actual purpose, and there's a lot of cross-over. Melee does the most damage at no cost, Powers usually have huge ranges or completely negate the AI with a marginal cost, and guns exist.

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il y a 17 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

I think it is less about the idea of a CD system and more about the idea of a horribly implemented CD system, which is the case of Lavos. CDs could indeed be a great way to limit our power, but the way Lavos is made is not the way to do it, since it is the worst CD based system I've ever experienced. It is backwards in so many ways, from skill placement for an actual player friendly rotation to the very odd spread of CD values which further works against actual rotations, which tend to be the core of CD based systems.

A proper system would have something like #1 3sec CD, #2 5sec CD, #3 10sec CD and #4 30sec CD. That would allow for a natural rotation pleasing muscle memory and so on. One and two should also preferably have impacted the CD of skill 3, so you are encouraged to use them regularly, which in turn makes them sync with 4 since the more often you can use 3, the more often you can use 4.

And I gotta ask, what is so bad with spamming abilities? I get the negative part when we talk about massive AoE frames, but I have no idea what is bad about being able to spam "normal" skills in a kit as a replacement to using guns and melee. I find it far more fun using 1-4 actively than spamming E or holding down LMB ad infini.

So basically, the CD are "horribly implemented" because you want to cast 1 and 2 more often, in order to cast 3 more often in order to cast 4 more often. So you just want an OP system that allows you to spam everything, entirely negating the original point of having CD in the first place.

If that's all you can put forward, I can hardly consider it backward in any way. You're weaving a lot of statements together, but you just want to spam everything.

The muscle memory is not bad, you just have to get used to it. Learn and play around the tools at your disposal, rather than wishing those tools to be streamlined into unrelevancy. Nothing you said justifies your criticism. CD as they are implemented are perfectly fine.

And I never said spamming is bad in itself, tho powers should work with the weapons, not replace them entirely. I was saying that after seeing some talk about spamming (not you if I remember right) like if it was the central part of the game, without which they would just leave. THIS makes me laugh to no end, thinking that we have so many tools, but that some just boot the game to press 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 and would be incapable to do anything without this crutch, while I'm barely ever pressing the same button twice in normal play without thinking about it.

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I don't get the Lavos cd complaints. Outside of his 1 maybe, all the others have ok cooldown timers.

I'm actually surprised DE put in an option to reduce the cooldown with his 3rd ability. Normally in other games there's no such thing.

Tho looking at the criticism it's more about how he can't spam his abilities non stop like others. Which is not a problem for me because I dare to use non meta elements.

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3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

It kind of depends on what you mean by a 'normal' skill. Like, is Invisibility a 'normal' ability?

There's a lot of powers that aren't immediately and clearly overpowered, like a 20 metre radius nuke or a permanent time stop. But in any setting where you don't have something to defend, invisibility is still pretty busted. It's not like enemies mean all that much if you can interact with them, but they can't with you. Powers like fireball, too - their closest equivilent would be something like a grenade in Halo or DOOM. But Grenades typically get fewer uses than their gun counterparts, even in games with larger swathes of enemies - either being rare-ish pickups or on a cooldown.

It comes down to a question: what's Warframe's actual core loop? Halo has its triad - guns, grenades and melee. DOOM Eternal has its resource management (health, armour, ammo). Half-life has 'Run, Think, Shoot, Live' where major combat encounters are set up almost more like small puzzles. Titanfall 2 has a short TTK to reward good movement and positioning, hero shooters like TF2 or Overwatch divvy out parts of its loop into individual characters, and most non-shooters will have their own distinct takes on the matter (Devil May Cry putting much of its loop onto the enemies themselves) Warframe has... well, what does it have? Arguably, you could say it has a triad too - powers, melee, guns. But you're usually only encouraged to use one at a time, rather than each having an actual purpose, and there's a lot of cross-over. Melee does the most damage at no cost, Powers usually have huge ranges or completely negate the AI with a marginal cost, and guns exist.

Stealth is an issue and has always been in games where there are no consequences to the skill being used. WoW was no different when it came to the Rogue class, just as DaoC was no different when it came to shadowblade, infiltrator and nightshade. It is one of those abilities that really shouldnt even be a thing in WF since it really has no place here. While fireball could be considered the equal to a grenade we have to remember this is more a hack n' slash looter shooter rpg and not an actual shooter. Progression, skills and so on should be a thing, and if ability focused builds is your flavor you should be free to use it primarily over weapons. Though that part lacks heavily on several (most) frames in WF. Fireball is really just another skill here, a weak one at that. Everything in this game more or less negates AI since we just have too many option to apply different types of CC passively along with too much AoE on everything, which is why I dont see the point in limiting a kit such as Lavos' so severely through CDs because the kit is magnitudes weaker than what people can get through simple weapons. It would be better to make it actually work with itself but also be a thing you need to actively use giving you more options between using weapons or rely more on the abilities.

3 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

So basically, the CD are "horribly implemented" because you want to cast 1 and 2 more often, in order to cast 3 more often in order to cast 4 more often. So you just want an OP system that allows you to spam everything, entirely negating the original point of having CD in the first place.

If that's all you can put forward, I can hardly consider it backward in any way. You're weaving a lot of statements together, but you just want to spam everything.

The muscle memory is not bad, you just have to get used to it. Learn and play around the tools at your disposal, rather than wishing those tools to be streamlined into unrelevancy. Nothing you said justifies your criticism. CD as they are implemented are perfectly fine.

And I never said spamming is bad in itself, tho powers should work with the weapons, not replace them entirely. I was saying that after seeing some talk about spamming (not you if I remember right) like if it was the central part of the game, without which they would just leave. THIS makes me laugh to no end, thinking that we have so many tools, but that some just boot the game to press 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 and would be incapable to do anything without this crutch, while I'm barely ever pressing the same button twice in normal play without thinking about it.

No I want a system that can actually be focused on and used instead of weapons if that is your preference. Right now it is a simple system where there is no point trying to hit the perfect rotations (which is the opposite of what DE seemed to want if we look at the Lavos hype video) since things die considerably faster and in a more simple fashion by just mashing E or holding down LMB. Lavos' system isnt one bit rewarding because the skills are weak to begin with, the dps on all of them is silly low. And no, the system wouldnt negate anything, it would do the opposite, make you play the kit actually in an active way. Right now it is just another weapon platform template frame with a skill used here and there when it is off CD. I just dont see the need of yet another such platform when we already have so many.

The muscle memory is bad since it works the opposite of pretty much every other game with CDs and rotations. It would be less bad if we could swap around the skills, but they are static and bound to poor design (mixing CD lengths between slot 1-4 and not having them linear in natural CD order). They are far from implemented perfectly fine and shows that DE still doesnt really grasp how a CD system should work. Though I dont blame them since they havent had much experience with it either.

Why should skills not be able to replace weapons? Why homogenize and dictate when there are clear paths in the game to diversify when the need/want is there? Lavos turned out to be nothing different from Grendel or Inaros, frames that barely use skills while soaking up damage coming their way and relying on weapons to get the killing done. The difference is just that Lavos has a different system that doesnt really do anything in the end. And yeah, just spamming a skill is not what I think the game is about and certainly not what I'm advocating for Lavos. You seem to think I'm wanting some double keg base drum spamming when in reality I want a guitar solo for Lavos, where we play all the skills actively and get rewarded properly for doing so. They need to add real reasons as to why I should ever bother using his 1 and 2.

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Il y a 23 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

No I want a system that can actually be focused on and used instead of weapons if that is your preference.

The muscle memory is bad since it works the opposite of pretty much every other game with CDs and rotations.

Not using your weapons goes completely against the design and the current balance of the game. Why would you ever hope for an alternative to weapons in a game with hundreds of them ? And again, the ENTIRE POINT of having CD is to push you to play around with other tools you have while those recharge, not to sob in the corner because you can't spam 4.

I have played a LOT of mobas and mmorpg, and saying that Lavos CD works opposite to "pretty much every other game with CD" is complete and utter bollocks. It is generally VERY rare in those kind of games to be able to cycle seemlessly nonstop between all your abilities. On the contrary, in every game I have played, it works pretty much like Lavos, sensible CD that forces you to weigh your options, pull the right ability at the right time, and punishing you for senselessly rolling your head over the keyboard. It is ALWAYS up to you to build the muscle memory around the tools given to you. Looks like you just refuse to change your own muscle memory, proceed to call it bad (which really doesn't make any sense) rather than working on your own shortcomings, and ask for changes that would just negate the existence of said CD entirely. I rest my case, peace !

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19 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Not using your weapons goes completely against the design and the current balance of the game. Why would you ever hope for an alternative to weapons in a game with hundreds of them ? And again, the ENTIRE POINT of having CD is to push you to play around with other tools you have while those recharge, not to sob in the corner because you can't spam 4.

I have played a LOT of mobas and mmorpg, and saying that Lavos CD works opposite to "pretty much every other game with CD" is complete and utter bollocks. It is generally VERY rare in those kind of games to be able to cycle seemlessly nonstop between all your abilities. On the contrary, in every game I have played, it works pretty much like Lavos, sensible CD that forces you to weigh your options, pull the right ability at the right time, and punishing you for senselessly rolling your head over the keyboard. It is ALWAYS up to you to build the muscle memory around the tools given to you. Looks like you just refuse to change your own muscle memory, proceed to call it bad (which really doesn't make any sense) rather than working on your own shortcomings, and ask for changes that would just negate the existence of said CD entirely. I rest my case, peace !

No really it doesnt go against the design or current balance of the game since we've had frames that can do this already and have been able to do so for years, with the latest one being Xaku where you can do Steel Path endless effectively without ever touching your weapons. Want me to give you a list?

Excalibur, Wukong, Valkyr, Baruuk, Hildryn, Khora, Gara, Ember, Protea, Xaku, Vauban, Mesa, Titania, Octavia and Ivara are examples of frames where you can completely ignore your weapons and still be very effective. That is 15/45 frames, that is 33% of the roster, then you have around the same that must use weapons to kill anything at all, and about the same that needs to mix and match for best outcome.

And this is still not about spamming 4, it is about the whole kit playing in sync. Spamming would imply wanting to only use one single skill over and over. This is also not a moba where CDs are there to balance PvP. If this was done to balance anything the mark is missed, like parachuting over the arctic and ending up in antarctica, since there is no balance in the skills to account for the length of the CDs. I'd also like to know what mmorpgs you've played that were "pretty much like Lavos" when it came to CDs. I can only think of one, which is GW2, with hardcoded skill slots per weapon where the type of skill and CD was all over the place. One weapon having a gap closer on 2, another on 3 and a third on 4, making it suck hard if you happened to run 2 of those weapons together. Same with the CDs. Atleast you could modify the utility quickbar, which usually had the longer CDs.

Proper muscle memory cannot be trained when you have something that works so unlike the other 40+ choice in a game, where the choices also arent "mains" you can or want to stick with through high and dry. You'd need a setup like Marvel Heroes in such a case, where you have CDs ranging from 0 to 30 seconds or so on all playable characters and where people can chose their slots freely for the same flow. Here we have an unnatural cd "ladder" in the kit along with very limited number of skill and no way to swap them around to fit better with the length of their CDs.

And reading most pro-Lavos people that say his kit is fine are also the same people that play around his 4 only while barely using his 3 the intended way. Wouldnt that also classify as spamming, since it is the only skill used over and over while the rest are ignored?

 

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I dont mind that ONE warframe out of 40+ has cooldowns, its his gimmick and can be useful sometimes when energy is a problem. Opens up new modding possibilities too since he doesnt need any energy related mods or arcanes. 

As long as it doesnt become a habbit.

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The core of the issue is, what is this game, what is the gameplay, what are you trying to archive.

Would anyone object to me saying fast pace, instant action and hardcore spam? If this was a reflective game such as RTS we would have a different conversation.

For example melee combo and attack speed or clearing out a room with volt speed firering ignis wraith constantly for 2 minutes straight, with exactly zero interruption in the action.

Not even half a second.

Blasting out relic capture mission as fast as possible, getting impatient over mere seconds at extraction. Constant and instant action.

Mind you, I am saying this is how the game already is, this is the intent on the developers' part.

So obviously, any "sit around and do nothing", "wait here", "can't do anything" mechanic of any type, goes against the game's own concept. Other examples of "not being able to interact" are knockdowns and status effects for relevant frames. Boss damage immunity. The loading screen, daily standing lockout, limited trades.

Further, the whole idea of a video game is "doing something", in oppose to reading a book etc. where you are passive.

Player agency - the total lack there of.

That last thing you want to do in a video game is denying the player the ability to do anything.

You add obstacles and dangers, a penalty or a risk, a sanction for some choices, rewards for others. But you never ever take away the ability to act from the players.

A cooldown is effectively a penalty or a sanction, with no player agency, working against the entire foundation of video games. There are problesm, you are the problem solver hopefully creative - that is "playing".

In addition to all that, the central nervous system, CNS, has a hardwired capacity and speed. And those numbers was registered centuries ago, so you have no excuses to not be 'up to speed' on them.

You can't run movies at 9 frames per second or 500 frames. You can't memorize 85 items and memorizing just 1 item is too easy.

Point being, this is a factual, objective, concrete number set in stone, no different than gas mileage on a car, or the the weight of an object on a scale.

And the exact same thing applies to reaction speed.

Clicking a button anticipating a reponse, has to be, must be, at the neurological, factual, objective speed of the brain or it feels off. Period.

It cannot be in any other way because the brain is hardwired that way.

Meaning, cooldowns are not only a total misunderstanding of video games, it is also a total misunderstanding of people. You'd think "engineers" would do their due diligence homework?

So yeah I mean, there just isn't enough bad things you can really say about it on a fundamental level it's embarrassing to see supposed professionals even consider it.

 

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9 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

That last thing you want to do in a video game is denying the player the ability to do anything.

You add obstacles and dangers, a penalty or a risk, a sanction for some choices, rewards for others. But you never ever take away the ability to act from the players.

A cooldown is effectively a penalty or a sanction, with no player agency, working against the entire foundation of video games. There are problesm, you are the problem solver hopefully creative - that is "playing".

In addition to all that, the central nervous system, CNS, has a hardwired capacity and speed. And those numbers was registered centuries ago, so you have no excuses to not be 'up to speed' on them.

You can't run movies at 9 frames per second or 500 frames. You can't memorize 85 items and memorizing just 1 item is too easy.

Point being, this is a factual, objective, concrete number set in stone, no different than gas mileage on a car, or the the weight of an object on a scale.

And the exact same thing applies to reaction speed.

Clicking a button anticipating a reponse, has to be, must be, at the neurological, factual, objective speed of the brain or it feels off. Period.

It cannot be in any other way because the brain is hardwired that way.

Meaning, cooldowns are not only a total misunderstanding of video games, it is also a total misunderstanding of people. You'd think "engineers" would do their due diligence homework?

Of course there are times in a video game that, when you push a button and the thing that normally happens does not happen. Be it because of an obstacle is in your way (a ceiling lower than your jump height caps your vertical mobility) an in-built limit (such as an ability requiring something in the environment, such as the ground) or from limited resources (ammo or energy).  I cannot think of a successful game where there isn't some form of restricting mechanic on what you can do in any situation, and whilst cooldowns are certainly not some perfect be-all-end-all of this - far from it, they have plenty of drawbacks - the suggestion that limiting the player is fundamentally anti-game is genuinely ludicrous.

Would you suggest that the fact a pawn can only move one space in chess is fundamentally a misunderstanding of games? It limits the player's agency of where they can move the pieces on the board after all? Is the fact that, upon taking damage with the fire flower Mario can no longer use his ranged attack an affront on choice, and Miyamoto just doesn't understand games like you do? Is the fact that you can run out out ammunition in DOOM, Titanfall, Team Fortress, Halo, Warframe, Battlefield, Call of Duty or almost any other shooter and no longer fire bullets when you press the fire button an icon of poor design and an insult to the player's ability to make decisions?

Cooldowns are no different. Flawed, again yes they are flawed, and by no means should they be universally applied as some panacea of balancing. But this argument, that they're fundamentally bad because they are a player-restricting element is insane.

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2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Cooldowns are no different. Flawed, again yes they are flawed, and by no means should they be universally applied as some panacea of balancing. But this argument, that they're fundamentally bad because they are a player-restricting element is insane

Yeah I was reading his post like 10 times and couldn't really wrap my head around to what he was saying, because it seemed quite insane to me as well. So there shouldnt be any restrictions at all? Then shouldnt energy also be removed because you can run out and when you press a button the expected outcome doesnt happen. 

Cooldowns arent at all THAT much worse than energy, I mean Lavos can keep casting no matter how many energy leeches are in the map, and lack of energy orbs has no effect on him either. Okey, he cant SPAM abilities but the cooldowns arent at all that long except for the ultimate. I felt like I was casting abilities pretty much the same pace as any other frame except compared to someone like Protea.

Honestly I expected the cooldowns to be much longer considering hes 3rd reduces them, altho his ultimate could probably be a bit faster. 

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2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Of course there are times in a video game that, when you push a button and the thing that normally happens does not happen. Be it because of an obstacle is in your way (a ceiling lower than your jump height caps your vertical mobility) an in-built limit (such as an ability requiring something in the environment, such as the ground) or from limited resources (ammo or energy).  I cannot think of a successful game where there isn't some form of restricting mechanic on what you can do in any situation, and whilst cooldowns are certainly not some perfect be-all-end-all of this - far from it, they have plenty of drawbacks - the suggestion that limiting the player is fundamentally anti-game is genuinely ludicrous.

Would you suggest that the fact a pawn can only move one space in chess is fundamentally a misunderstanding of games? It limits the player's agency of where they can move the pieces on the board after all? Is the fact that, upon taking damage with the fire flower Mario can no longer use his ranged attack an affront on choice, and Miyamoto just doesn't understand games like you do? Is the fact that you can run out out ammunition in DOOM, Titanfall, Team Fortress, Halo, Warframe, Battlefield, Call of Duty or almost any other shooter and no longer fire bullets when you press the fire button an icon of poor design and an insult to the player's ability to make decisions?

Cooldowns are no different. Flawed, again yes they are flawed, and by no means should they be universally applied as some panacea of balancing. But this argument, that they're fundamentally bad because they are a player-restricting element is insane.

I gave your post +1 because it almost got my respect.

You almost had the right idea of asking questions in debate rather than jumping to quite bold conclusions - that could potentially come back to hunt you after they have been submitted.

The more cautious and professional escape right would be just asking questions until the flaws reveals themselves without taking the risk of judgement.

So I will give it ½ a point for at least, almost trying.

When I come off as overtly arrogant, which yes I am aware of, it's because these are fundamental and obvious facts of physics.

Would you argue fire isn't hot or water isn't wet. The concept that we are even having this talk now is undignifed for both of us - it shouldn't have to be said.

Maybe the educational system is to blame but we are here now and so it's on us to raise the bar regardlessly.

The things we are talking about here are obsolete knowledge from 200 years ago, from a time of pathetic technology. So quite frankly, if this seems controversial to you, blows your mind, goes beyond your horizont, we have problems. That comes off in my message and I want it to. And, it should. It must.

Here is how I see it.

A. There is a lot you, us, we don't know

B. You don't know, what you don't know because you don't

With that approach in mind you should just ask questions, knowing your journey is to seek out the knowledge you don't have, knowing you don't know.

That is your failsafe into "thinking" and you will never go wrong with a learning approach mindset, If this goes over your head and you haven't decided to never learn anything new, I will say I'd rather not waste time but again it has to be said.

To shoot your analogy through of holes and sink your boat, it is the equivalent of - not - being able to move, when it is your turn in chess.

Within the confinements of the game's own concept and your anticapatory sensory input, you must be able to move when it is your turn.

Then as a sidenote you overly generalized the points made far behind what I was talking about, which I anticpated, as early as I think the third line of my post, when I brought up RTS video games.

Though I do believe the entire first half of my post explicitly explained the details of the context in relation to the game's own concept.

So in short, thanks for coming out, but you really, really need to step it up

 

 

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Just now, Surbusken said:

 

To shoot your analogy through of holes and sink your boat, it is the equivalent of - not - being able to move, when it is your turn in chess.

The word you are looking for is  either 'checkmate' or 'stalemate'

There is only one common outcome where a player has no moves that they can make - the king is in Check, and the king cannot be moved out of check with a legal move, referred to as 'checkmate'. Less common is the situation in which a player has no legal moves, but their king is not in check, at which point, the game is officially ruled a draw or 'stalemate', or possibly victory is decided by points.

 

The rest of your point appears to be nothing but ad hominem attacks, vague generalisations or easily-disproven falsehoods - Mario was not invented 200 years ago. For that matter, neither was chess, actually, it's much older. If you do have anything else of note to say, especially things that do support your claim, I encourage you to do so. I am fond of healthy debate, after all. Otherwise, I believe we're done here.

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On 2021-01-18 at 2:54 AM, Loza03 said:

There's a lot of fast-paced 'Anime' games that feature cooldowns. Those that don't usually feature far harsher systems - either limited-use items or a mana system far harder to bypass than Warframes, ones that usually require constant upkeep. Most will have some or most of their core moveset be freely available, but have individual elements be tied to cooldowns.

 

This is because for a game to be fast-paced, it usually requires that the player constantly need to be doing something, or have the potential to be doing something. If a player can smack a button, and then sit still for 20 seconds, then that's 20 seconds of downtime. That's 20 seconds of slow-paced gameplay, no matter how fast you move.

I don't remember which game offhand, it might have even been this one.  But I remember reading an article about a game with really extensive cooldowns on small numbers of powers.  What would happen was that players would jump out, fire off their most devastating abilities, then hide under a rock while their cooldowns refreshed.  Instead of encouraging dynamic gameplay and more active gunplay, players opted for the safer but far more tedious option of "basically static gameplay and almost no gunplay whatsoever."  Or they did right up until they got fed up with "boring combat" and quit.

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9 hours ago, xombob89 said:

Honestly I expected the cooldowns to be much longer considering hes 3rd reduces them, altho his ultimate could probably be a bit faster. 

My main issue with his current design is that his third power feels a little unfinished somehow.  For me, the most intuitive use would be to jump into a huge mob of enemies and cast his fourth, immediately follow by hurling the third through the densest group of them to reduce the cooldowns.  But because of exactly how his powers work this would result in the third having NO effect on reducing the Ultimate's cooldown.  Because it actually has *two* durations.  An active duration as the ring expands outwards, followed by the reset duration before you can cast it again.  Transmutation Probe only affects the reset cooldown, and *only* if you cast it once the reset cooldown has started.

The other aspect of Transmutation Probe that feels unfinished is that the probe can be blocked by basically everything.  Enemies, railings, random breakable crates, the dreaded inch-high-stick...  Again, the most intuitive use would seem to be to hurl it down a hallway full of enemies.  But unless you jump up and throw it over their heads, it'll just plonk into the first Grineer in line and then stop moving.

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1 hour ago, EmberStar said:

My main issue with his current design is that his third power feels a little unfinished somehow.  For me, the most intuitive use would be to jump into a huge mob of enemies and cast his fourth, immediately follow by hurling the third through the densest group of them to reduce the cooldowns.  But because of exactly how his powers work this would result in the third having NO effect on reducing the Ultimate's cooldown.  Because it actually has *two* durations.  An active duration as the ring expands outwards, followed by the reset duration before you can cast it again.  Transmutation Probe only affects the reset cooldown, and *only* if you cast it once the reset cooldown has started.

The other aspect of Transmutation Probe that feels unfinished is that the probe can be blocked by basically everything.  Enemies, railings, random breakable crates, the dreaded inch-high-stick...  Again, the most intuitive use would seem to be to hurl it down a hallway full of enemies.  But unless you jump up and throw it over their heads, it'll just plonk into the first Grineer in line and then stop moving.

Agreed, I said im the Lavos thread that the probe shouldve been more of an AoE attack around Lavos itself or something similar so I can just cast it when I see enemies without thinking too much of the direction and wether theres obstacles in the way. Or give the probe an AI similar to Vauban tesla rollers so it kinda follows enemies around zapping them. 

Actually the whole kit of Lavos is kinda boring now that I think of it.

His first is a glorified whip, the snakes shouldve detached from lavos and attach/attack enemies on their own and to give some meaning to the fact that they are snakes and not just a whip or other melee. 

His second is basically just another Rhino Charge, Revenant Reave, Excalibur Slash Dash etc... Unimaginative.

Third, well we talked about that already but at least generating universal orbs is pretty unique thing. 

At least mixing the elements around is unique and useful. 

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5 hours ago, EmberStar said:

I don't remember which game offhand, it might have even been this one.  But I remember reading an article about a game with really extensive cooldowns on small numbers of powers.  What would happen was that players would jump out, fire off their most devastating abilities, then hide under a rock while their cooldowns refreshed.  Instead of encouraging dynamic gameplay and more active gunplay, players opted for the safer but far more tedious option of "basically static gameplay and almost no gunplay whatsoever."  Or they did right up until they got fed up with "boring combat" and quit.

I certainly remember hearing something to that effect about Warframe.

For my money, I think Outriders seems to have the right idea, even if the specifics would need to be different for Warframe for a number of reasons. It has frequent ability casts of fairly powerful abilities (although from everything I've seen, they're much less powerful than Warframe's still, but that's hardly surprising) and discourages static gameplay by virtue of a 'healing through killing' mechanic. I'm certainly interested in trying it out.

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