[Survey Results] "A different take on Warframe PvP"

[[DE]Purzzle]

Hiho everybody!

I worked through the responses and here are the results!

What's my take?

Conclave tries to be a competitive shooter but those usually need a good matchmaking and dedicated servers.

Warframe doesn't have that.

So why not go with a more casual approach and combine Warframe PvP with 4fun games like "Fall Guys"?

Results

• General opionions on Warframe PvP

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• What feature could Warframe PvP life without

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• Three ideas for new game modes

Spleef/Hex-A-Gone

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Hide and Seek/Prop Hunt

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Fire Painter

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• More ideas

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• Is there room in Warframe for casual PvP

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Survey data: Imgur Gallery | Google Sheet

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Last week, I let people vote on the topic of my next survey and "A different take on Warframe PvP" won!

The survey is split in two parts and should take about 3-4 minutes. First I'd like to know how you feel about PvP in Warframe in general. After that I prepared three ideas for PvP modes in Warframe.

Let's see what people think!

Link to the survey

What's my take on Warframe PvP?

Conclave tries to be a competitive shooter but those usually need a good matchmaking and dedicated servers.

Warframe doesn't have that.

So why not go with a more casual approach and combine Warframe PvP with 4fun games like "Fall Guys"?

Giveaway

As a little thanks for your time, I'll randomly choose 50 participants (PC only) and gift them weapon slots.

Past surveys

Tilesets #1 - Characters - Watching Warframe Content? - Tilesets #2 - Mission Types - Foundry Rush - Quest Difficulty - End of the Year - QoL

Cheers!

[EdinaMonsoon]

i'm obsessed with the idea of casual "Fall Guys" pvp!

[PublikDomain]

10 minutes ago, Purzzle said:

... and dedicated servers.

Warframe doesn't have that.

It's been a few months since I've done any Conclave, but last time I did I remember joining a player-hosted dedicated server based in New York. So Conclave does have them and has for years. I think there are even DE servers, though only for the NA region. And if I'm misremembering, DE could surely afford to throw some old blades into a server rack in a closet somewhere.

Conclave's problem is that DE doesn't give it any attention. Because DE doesn't give it any attention, no one plays it. And because no one plays it, DE doesn't give it any attention. Rinse, repeat. Adding casual or joke gamemodes isn't the way to go IMO, and would have the same issues regarding matchmaking and keeping DE's fleeting attention as Conclave already has now. I think lowering the TTK in PvP, adding bots, raising the Armistice, and adding more than the bare minimum of usability features would do a lot more for Warframe's PvP than Frame Guys, Frame Hunt, or Tron-frame. Leave the silly modes for events like the snowball one.

[Loza03]

I'm biased towards Spleef since I was a total Minecraft Kid, but it's a perfectly reasonable casual mode for Warframe.

[Scruffel]

I feel like the Spleef/Hex-a-Gone idea would only work if we had similar restricted movements as the games they originate from, however since this is Warframe we're talking about, people being able to bullet jump to another platform easily would probably cause the games to feel a bit more like parkour tests than endurance ones. It could be interesting if it wasn't just disappearing platforms, perhaps walls and other objects to parkour from too that could also disappear. Also, I feel like Zephyr would dominate this mode, if passives are aloud or active during the mode.

Prop Hunt makes a lot of sense for Warframe actually, since some of the ways we find stuff, such as Ayatans and Caches, require us to recognize and learn our tilesets to some extent. Most of the games in which these appear however, such as Gmod or TF2, do have some interesting rules related to this mode. One is that Seekers usually have to lose some health when trying to find the Props, so I'm not exactly sure how that will be balanced with Warframe's variety of explosives, AoE, and beam weapons. And the 2nd is that usually (more common in TF2), the last Prop gains weapons in order to fight the remaining Seekers. I feel like the former would be a bit easier to balance.

In regards to the Nezha Firewalker idea, it's essentially a Warframe version of Tron, and I can't say it's necessarily interesting to an extent. Especially if it's going to be restricted to just basic movement options such as jumps and moving straight forward, which would have to be the case since using our current movement options would make that mode a nightmare to participate in. Plus, I know we already have some Warframe-specific mission and mini-games, such as Baro's Inaros Prime Bounty or Flappy Zephyr, but I feel like having a PvP mode being Warframe locked would be kinda weird, esp for those who don't own them.

[Tesseract7777]

I don't want to take away the current conclave for those who enjoy it, but I think we have a serious problem that is really hard to solve without just doing this:

1) Keep old conclave modes for those who like them and continue to support it enough to keep it going (it doesn't require a ton of support anyways, add new frames, occasional bug fixes, etc.) 

2) Also create a separate, parallel system in order to try radically different things with PvP.

The problem is the current PvP system is simply not entry player friendly. 

A big part of the problem with this, imo, is that Warframe PvP forces you to start over in an entirely new system with new mods and everything, like so many WF modes. This is cool and makes sense for a lot of modes, but I think for PvP it makes it overly restrictive for new players to feel like they can gain proper entry into the new mode. 

In any PvP game you expect to die a good bit at first before you learn the maps and find your feet, there will always be a learning curve, but in most sucessful PvP games you just start playing. The learning curve is learning to get good with the different classes, and the few weapons you can usually pick up around the map, and where the best corners of the maps are. In WF it's btw you need to start over like a newborn foal, oh and also everyone is jumping around like bunny rabbits and abilities work totally differently because most of them would be way too overpowered for PvP. 

If WF had a bunch of extra PvP modes, especially on casual nodes connected to planets where rando's could just jump in on a whim, there would be way more people doing any kind of PvP WF threw at them. Even the bunny rabbit jumping imo isn't the biggest problem, its the amount of work you have to do just to be up there with everyone else in terms of gear.

TL;DR: PvP should be jump in and play, everyone on an essentially equal level. You shouldn't need to gear up or progress. Progression should be learning curve of skill by playing and getting better. That is WF PvP's great failing, the bunny rabbit jumping is a red herring. 

[Nakti]

6 minutes ago, Scruffel said:

I feel like the Spleef/Hex-a-Gone idea would only work if we had similar restricted movements as the games they originate from, however since this is Warframe we're talking about, people being able to bullet jump to another platform easily would probably cause the games to feel a bit more like parkour tests than endurance ones. It could be interesting if it wasn't just disappearing platforms, perhaps walls and other objects to parkour from too that could also disappear. Also, I feel like Zephyr would dominate this mode, if passives are aloud or active during the mode.

I've imagined this mode as parkour one, like we had in Glassmaker fight, but with faster changing surroundings. And in my experience spleef in minecraft wasn't endurance at all, games were fast and full of running. Desctuctable walls sound cool too. Maybe levels could be multifloor...

 

[nslay]

Seriously... these PvP modes in the survey... what? This is a shooter!

Please look back at history... Quake-style PvP with weapons/ammo/shields/armor you find. I know this is different than how Warframe currently works... but start from tried-and-tested historical and fun shooter PvP modes!

EDIT: Here's a retrofitted Quake-style PvP for Warframe

• Quake Conclave mode no longer has explicit mods or weapons. You just pick a Warframe... Completely simplified!
• Mods are duration-based bonuses that spawn on the map (e.g. like Quad damage). Warframe abilities become mods you find that unlock an ability for a time (depending on the frame you picked!).
• Specifically-balanced Weapons spawn around the map and you pick them up (but none of this press X to pick up weapon from Drahks!).
• Ammo spawns throughout the map (specific types of ammo in specific locations... not universal ammo like Index).
• Shield/Overshields and Health also spawn on the map.
• When you die, you respawn seconds later with bare minimum of weapons (e.g. Lato, Braton, Skana... or maybe even unarmed!) and all bonuses removed.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb EdinaMonsoon:

i'm obsessed with the idea of casual "Fall Guys" pvp!

Only if we are able to kick other player with a jump kick down.

[Hierarch777]

My only gripe with Conclave is that almost no one plays it. 

And that one time when I got a CC game, I got ball-busted by a Nova with Telos boltace slide attack spam.

If DE added more to Conclave (like Mech PvP, K-Drive races, Parkour races, 1v1 melee duels) people would pay it more heed. 

[Surbusken]

To me it's fundamentally about the pay-out, it being a looter shooter game.

In co-op, the other players put all their gear, stats and abilities into everyone getting paid.

In pvp not only are you not getting paid, people actively try to prevent it but you are giving up your time and energy on what I call "babysitting"; meaning I am their content.

To me, it is the developers' job to supply content, not me, so they would have to pay me to "babysit"... on top of what I get paid in pve.

As to the pvp gameplay itself, warframe already has the winning formula established in the rest of the game, that trivializes the actual quality of the content:

If the reward is there, people will grind it no matter how terrible it is.

The fact that developers have not gated any rewards over in pvp speaks to their investment or faith in it.

So if you really want pvp resurrected first and foremost you must convince the developers. Unless they are willing to gate items and rewards and adjust the pay-out for pvp, no amount of brilliant game modes will make any difference whatsoever.

[PublikDomain]

23 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

A big part of the problem with this, imo, is that Warframe PvP forces you to start over in an entirely new system with new mods and everything, like so many WF modes. This is cool and makes sense for a lot of modes, but I think for PvP it makes it overly restrictive for new players to feel like they can gain proper entry into the new mode. 

I'm not so sure about that, having a gear progression in Conclave isn't any different from CoD, Battlefield, etc. And when you dig into it, the mods are more or less balanced because they tend to come with some sort of penalty. You don't need Conclave mods to participate, just like how in CoD you don't need all the fancy attachments and weapons. You can still get kills with the M16 or whatever they start with nowadays, and you can still get kills with a MK-1 Braton. I think if DE could standardize some of the Conclave mods so all of the them are usable and obtainable in PvE then it'd be a nice crossover, but it seems to me like the deeper issue is what you mention right after:

24 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

In WF it's btw you need to start over like a newborn foal

New players get bodied by the regulars. But it isn't the new players' lack of gear that makes them weak, IMO it's the mode's TTK balancing. Due to the game's parkour and the generally low weapon damage if you know what you're doing you can more or less just leave a fight, get some health orbs, and come back later when things are more favorable. In order to kill someone you need to get a lot of good hits and keep up with them, and skilled players can drag those incoming hits out over such a long time that they're basically unkillable. If you're good enough, you don't ever need to die if you don't want to. New players without the skill or knowledge to get out of the way are easy prey for regulars because they don't have the capability to drag out their health and stay alive.

This is why I think DE should drop the TTK across the board so you need fewer hits to get a kill. Skilled players are already working with low TTKs so they won't get much more powerful, but less skilled players would benefit a lot from having to land fewer hits. Tie that in with faster respawns and generally faster gamemode pacing and we're good to go: you might die a lot, but you won't spend as much time watching your corpse and you'll also get a lot of kills too.

Someone else mentioned Quake, which I think is a good model:

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The movement speed in Quake is through the roof, way faster than Warframe's, so I don't think Warframe's parkour is really as big of a problem as people make it out to be. The difference here is really the TTK; you kill fast and die fast and respawn a second later. Compare that to Warframe where the respawn is like 5 seconds. Concalve is just slow in the wrong places.

[nslay]

6 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

--- snip ---

I love "Humiliation!" in Quake 3 when you kill someone with Gauntlet.

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[Aldain]

I'm not partaking in the survey so as not to skew the numbers as I'm not a PvP fan, but I'll contribute an uncounted opinion anyway; part of the problem overall is across 3 points:

1) No cross progression between PvP and PvE, time spent in PvP is time wasted that could have been used on PvE for actual progression/resources.

2) Insanely high skill floor, we're too mobile it is often to the point where it winds up being vomit inducing to watch high level play (from the clips I've seen tossed about around the forums).

3) General difficulty of balance, Warframe can't even get PvE balance in a good place, I have zero faith in DE not having the same "one weapon > all other weapons" problem in PvP.

These three reasons are a decent chunk in my eyes as to why people are reluctant or resistant to PvP in Warframe, there's no appeal to it for most people who don't want to just be cannon fodder, that's why generic things like CoD appeal more, you don't need to dedicate an unhealthy amount of time to it just to have fun, people blame "casuals" for things like that but for entertainment products broad appeal is something that is needed to tap more than a heavily niche market.

[[DE]Purzzle]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Aldain:

not to skew the numbers as I'm not a PvP fan

Please don't worry about that. All responses are valuable.
Even if 90% people say Warframe would be better off without PvP, then that's an important result as well!

[Aldain]

Just now, Purzzle said:

Please don't worry about that. All responses are valuable.
Even if 90% people say Warframe would be better off without PvP, then that's an important result as well!

If you say so, off I go to apply modestly skewing data.

[nslay]

23 minutes ago, Aldain said:

If you say so, off I go to apply modestly skewing data.

You have the option to not answer some questions.

[Aldain]

8 minutes ago, nslay said:

You have the option to not answer some questions.

I might have done worse, I kind of abused the "other" option to a comical degree and left text blobs everywhere.

Then again I've never been good at surveys like this, it gets data but data only tells half the story most of the time, one person's "1" might be for a different reason as another's.

Not saying these surveys are bad or anything, they're fun and can give a decent snapshot since getting and sorting through mounds of text bases responses is kind of unreasonable especially in the age of data, I just don't mesh with them because I like to give reasons with everything, hence the massive amount of "Other+Text" responses I wound up inputting.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

Honestly I'm still of the opinion that hardcore PVP has no place in Warframe, mainly because the playerbase has shown little interest in it over the years and DE can clearly not balance it in a way that makes it fun or rewarding. Conclavers want their rewards to be just theirs for the most part, and PvE's want their stuff to matter in Conclave, and the way it works right now is an odd amalgamation of both that fails across the board.

That being said, I don't see the harm in DE adding fun little gamemodes people can play just for fun with dedicated matchmaking. Stuff like Shawzin Hero or DDR minigame-esque content would be quite easy to implement, all you'd have to do is limit everything Frame Fighter style so gameplay can be balanced easier. It's why so many people want Mech fights for Conclave, just swap some values around and keep the abilities as they are while not allowing for Modding outside of cosmetic appearance. 

Keep Conclave and Lunaro for those who like it I guess, and just branch out with events for said minigames that allow you to earn Conclave Rep, so whether you're a new player or a veteran, it won't matter too much outside of your knowledge and skill. Limitation is what's going to benefit Conclave, and I'm surprised DE doesn't understand that when they've helped make games like Quake.

[Soy77]

Like the "splatoon" idea. The shoot platform idea sounds great too.

Instead of focusing on hardcore competitive PvP, those "mini activities" would probably fit warframe better.

[ReddyDisco]

pvp and warframe. like adding mustard on icecream, doesn't sound quite right

[CephalonCarnage]

1 hour ago, ReddyDisco said:

adding mustard on icecream

Well, you say that but....

 

I think PvP within warframe is actualyl a bad idea, as we've seen the balance is super mismatched, and you only get experienced players "farming" noobs. If it was 100% balanced (ie 2 players fighting with exactly the same kit, and perhaps being able to choose from all equipment as a kind of semi-practice mode) then perhaps it'd work. But it'd work as practice mode for trying out weapons rather than PvP.

Perhaps competitive play is more Warframe's style. Can you imagine a PvP race to collect as many cetus wisp's as possible from the plains in a fixed time? That's more warframe PVP. It could be like those riven challenges in variety, with some reward at the end (not just collected wisps!)

[ReddyDisco]

37 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

Well, you say that but....

OH HOLY JESUS! 

[ES-Flinter]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb ReddyDisco:

OH HOLY JESUS! 

Still better than pizza Hawaii (pizza+ pineapple).

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

I think a fall guys type set up but operator and or necramech would be the way.

Simply disabling focus schools or not making the content strictly platform skill/combat based would be sufficient balance.

Then modes involving operator pvp would go a long way to make the operator experience more fluid and balance pvp in a more realistic way. 

I'm not a PC guy though so I'm doing this purely out of interest.